Q&A Hint Block: Yoshi Question and Answer Thread

[Codaption]

I'm starting to realize that I don't really know how to ultilize Yoshi to his fullest on Battlefield and Dreamland, since the platforms kinda mess with eggs. How exactly should I be playing here?

 

[Delta-cod]

Pixel_ I don't think playing more defensively is the answer you're looking for. Playing more patiently is what you need to do. Against Falco you overextended yourself really hard in the first 10 seconds with that deep dash attack that got you punished because you were no longer in an advantageous state, but you played like you were and went to keep it going. You need to learn how to read when the situation is no longer dramatically in your favor and then pull it back a little bit to avoid punishment.

You also pick a lot of overcommitting options. I saw a lot of DJ > FF > Fair/Nair against Falco. It's incredibly linear, not really that powerful, and if you get screwed out of it you have no jump. Other things you do very consistently are land with Fair/Nair on shield. Same story here.

The reason I say use patience instead of defense is because you actually play a bit too scared. You got stuck in your shield for a REALLY long time, in multiple instances, while fighting both Falco and Link you were holding shield for 2-3 seconds at a time, without having your shield constantly under attack. You need to find breaks in the pressure and just drop shield/jump out.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I could blame it on me being tired but that just sounds like I'm making excuses

I think it's a legit excuse, so long as you're being honest with yourself. I'm learning the hard way that bracket fatigue (yeah, I know this is FG, but it still kinda applies) is a real thing and has a real impact on your performance, especially in decision making. Managing it is one of those meta skills you have to pick up in addition to being a good player.

I get really anxious between matches, but there are tons of ways to deal with it. Watching another player's match (not necessarily your next opponent's; while doing that can give you valuable insight on their strategy, it can also raise your stress if you think they play better than you), talking to other players, or chilling out with a low-key game on your 3DS or phone (I've been playing Pokemon Picross between matches lately). Eating right/sleeping well the night before makes a huge difference too.

One thing I noticed during your Link match: there were actually two moments where you had time and were in position to punish with a ground pound (1:44 and 1:51) but it looked like you were too scared to react, maybe because of that hard punish he got on your gp to ledge early in the match.

I'm starting to realize that I don't really know how to ultilize Yoshi to his fullest on Battlefield and Dreamland, since the platforms kinda mess with eggs. How exactly should I be playing here?

I second this question. Better Yoshi players than me often tell me Battlefield is Yoshi's best stage, but I habitually ban it. Platforms get in the way of eggs and ground pound.

The upshot though is your usmash goes through the bottom platforms, so you can try for a kill out of a frame trap if they land there. I've also seen people jump up and dair as they land too, angling it so Yoshi goes past the platform before the attack ends to avoid landing lag near the opponent. Still, knowing that isn't enough for me.

 

[Pixel_]

I'm starting to realize that I don't really know how to ultilize Yoshi to his fullest on Battlefield and Dreamland, since the platforms kinda mess with eggs. How exactly should I be playing here?

Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure fullhop dair is safer if the opponent is on the side platforms, since you can move yourself off the platform before the opponent punishes you

 

[The Wall]

Watching your first game Pixel, it's pretty obvious what the problem is.

You don't shield attacks.

That entire game vs Falco, you shielded 1 attack total, which was a down smash. Granted you used shield, but you sit in it for way too long during idle moments as like a "Crap, what do I do now" type thing. Then you would drop shield and get hit almost every time. Not to mention that you try to challenge almost everything Falco was throwing out with your own attacks with hopes (I'm assuming here) to beat them out. You need to reel it back a little, use shield a little more on the obvious attack approaches and wait for your opponent to mess up and leave themselves with end lag before you go in for a hard punish. Jab into up tilt is something you could implement to start combos. I think you landed 1 or 2 up tilts but you instantly naired out of it which killed your combo. Follow with an up air, if they're slow to air dodge you can string 2 more with a double jump. Or if you try that and you see they're buffering air dodge, up tilt into up air and then fast fall to the ground and up tilt the air dodge, then continue the combo. There's a lot more you can be doing with reads rather than trying to play full reaction.

 

[Deleted member]

Hi guys.
Does yoshi have any guaranteed kill setups that don't have to do with fair?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Jab1 into whatever you think will land.
Grab Nair Usmash Dsmash Fsmash, all situational but most consistent one is Jab1 Dsmash while Jab1 grab is pretty good just for damage.

 

[Pixel_]

Thanks for all of the critique, guys! Usually when I ask for critique it sorta gets buried under other messages :/

Speaking of that, anyone else have anything for Codaption's question? I was wondering about it too because I doubt one trick would make it a good stage (actually two, since I just remembered that Neutral B is also good against opponents on platforms).

Anyway, I have another question. How helpful is SH Dair? I've been abusing it a LOT recently and have been using it as one of my main damage outputs. Reasons why I think it's good:
- 30+ damage when done properly
- Lots of shield damage
- Hits spotdodges
- Aerial mobility usually hits rolls, too
- Hits air dodges
- Puts the opponent in a really bad spot
- Can crossup shield, or mix it up and not crossup shield at the last second
Also Yoshi's combination of having a really good disadvantage state and being hard to kill means you don't have to worry too much about punishes (though obviously it's something to worry about at higher percents, but I only really use it at lower percents). Thoughts?

Hi guys.
Does yoshi have any guaranteed kill setups that don't have to do with fair?

Frametrap egg into Uair (throw an egg if they're above you; if it hits, follow up with Uair. If they air dodge, Uair them anyway)

 

[Delta-cod]

Speaking of that, anyone else have anything for Codaption's question? I was wondering about it too because I doubt one trick would make it a good stage (actually two, since I just remembered that Neutral B is also good against opponents on platforms).

Also Codaption -- The main use of the platforms is to benefit Yoshi's mobility. Using them for run off Egg Lay, landing with B-reverse Egg Lays, etc is all part of the appeal of Battlefield/platformed stages. Yoshi's a fast little bugger, so you should try to abuse his speed and mobility with the platforms.

Of course, being above people kinnnnnnnnnda sucks, but you can use the platforms to really do some creative stuff with approaches. Really, these stages are all a matter of how creative you can get with utilizing movement options on platforms.

We also get a couple of throw setups, with Dthrow/Uthrow onto the platforms given the proper percents. Our platform pressure is pretty decent.

Anyway, I have another question. How helpful is SH Dair? I've been abusing it a LOT recently and have been using it as one of my main damage outputs. Reasons why I think it's good:
- 30+ damage when done properly
- Lots of shield damage
- Hits spotdodges
- Aerial mobility usually hits rolls, too
- Hits air dodges
- Puts the opponent in a really bad spot
- Can crossup shield, or mix it up and not crossup shield at the last second
Also Yoshi's combination of having a really good disadvantage state and being hard to kill means you don't have to worry too much about punishes (though obviously it's something to worry about at higher percents, but I only really use it at lower percents). Thoughts?

It's okay to use, but slow on startup means getting swatted out of the beginning of it. It's not a terrible tool though, definitely powerful and worth using if you can condition people to let it work.

I would HIGHLY advise against using it on characters that like to combo with Uairs (ZSS, MK, Diddy).

 

[Codaption]

Yeah I figured Egg Lay and grab tech chase setups would have something to do with it lol. I mostly ask because they tend to mess with my eggs, though I guess that's just part of the territory to an extent. I'm really just starting to experiment more with them now, so maybe as I get more used to them I might start figuring out the nuances with that, but of course a little help to jump-start that process would be nice.

 

[Pogoshark]

What do you guys ban?
My scenes stage list is 7 starters, no CP, with a 2-3-1 ban set up for game 1 and only 1 ban on games 2 and 3

• BF
  
• FD
  
• SV
• T&C
• Lylat
• DL
• Duck Hunt

I usually ban FD since it gives my opponent a better chance to punish Yoshi's landings and usually get to play on BF or DL in game 1
But im not super sure about some stages...
Should I be trying to play on Lylat? the platforms seem helpful, but getting caught under the janky edges and messing up double jump spacing on the tilting edges has cost me a few games.

I find Duckhunt a decent stage also since it gives me the space to move around and space with eggs while also having platforms to trap my opponents on

I dont know if im overthinking things or if Yoshi is just really good on most stages

 

[Codaption]

Yoshi is pretty good on just about any stage, but there are some that he generally shines on overall (one of those being FD afaik). I'll let the others go into detail on that.

 

[GerudoKong]

Hopefully I don't stir up any hate but I'm struggling to learn this matchup and in order to learn it I want to hear from this board. My best character is Bowser, my other secondaries are Wario and Doc. I've been very unsuccessful against yoshi with all of these characters. Bowser really can't do much against yoshi's frame data and I often get spiked before I can live long enough to abuse rage. I like that wario can recover from being spiked a good amount of the time, but I really struggle to get in on Yoshi with Wario (I feel like both characters play similiarly but yoshi does so better). With Doc the Usmash helps a lot, but I tend to get naired out of my own combos. I know a few things to avoid like respecting drift away Fair for example, and watching out for Usmash out of shield at high %, but I need to know which character does generally the best. Two players are giving me a really hard time whenever I play against them in bracket or friendlies. Advice is appreciated.

 

[Pixel_]

While I was messing around with that bidou thing, I started experimenting with B-sticking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiEQWeLLSno
Is this just wavebouncing?
I did this by doing these at the same time:
Left stick: Forwards
B-stick: Up and back

 

[100AngryTurtles]

Yeah that seems to just be a backwards momentum wavebounce. It is talked about at around 3:45 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw1elkJwtDo&ab_channel=MySmashCorner

 

[Pixel_]

Yeah I know about wavebouncing, I just
- Don't know how to do it with Egg Toss in the air
- Don't know how to do it with the cstick set to special moves, at least with neutral b

 

[Foxus]

Here's a question. How much does Yoshi fight like Fox? I can see some similarities, however the end lag Yoshi suffers from that Fox does not can put Yoshi at a disadvantage in battle with speedy characters.

I ask because I'm thinking until I improve, switch to Yoshi then back to Fox, and transfer those skills to Fox.

 

[muddykips]

you might be mistaking similar fighting style for purely visual similarities; i.e. they both have sex kicks, they backflip during usmash, dair is multihit, uair covers the same vertical area, dash attack is a running kick, dtilt uses their tails...

that has very little to do with the actual utility of the moves, though. for instance while yoshi's usmash has more range, fox's is much better when it comes to punishing opponents or surprising them with an usmash out of the blue (partially because fox has so much ground speed).

but besides moves that look similar, fox and yoshi are complete opposites. yoshi is super floaty while fox is the fastest faller there is, yoshi is pretty fat while fox is lightweight, yoshi is more air-based while fox is ground-based, yoshi is good at pressuring while fox is good at punishing... i think they're even affected by platforms differently? platforms tend to limit yoshi's options, while i'm pretty sure fox makes good use out of them (if the fox's playstyle isn't laser-dependant).

i think they compliment each other pretty well, which is why i considered picking up fox for a long while. i've never been able to get fox to work for me though, since the way he plays and controls goes completely against what yoshi is able to do. i'd assume the same would apply for a fox main trying out yoshi; like yeah, maybe you could learn some ways to play the game differently, but there's very little yoshi can do that could also be applied to fox since they're polar opposites.

 

[Foxus]

you might be mistaking similar fighting style for purely visual similarities; i.e. they both have sex kicks, they backflip during usmash, dair is multihit, uair covers the same vertical area, dash attack is a running kick, dtilt uses their tails...

that has very little to do with the actual utility of the moves, though. for instance while yoshi's usmash has more range, fox's is much better when it comes to punishing opponents or surprising them with an usmash out of the blue (partially because fox has so much ground speed).

but besides moves that look similar, fox and yoshi are complete opposites. yoshi is super floaty while fox is the fastest faller there is, yoshi is pretty fat while fox is lightweight, yoshi is more air-based while fox is ground-based, yoshi is good at pressuring while fox is good at punishing... i think they're even affected by platforms differently? platforms tend to limit yoshi's options, while i'm pretty sure fox makes good use out of them (if the fox's playstyle isn't laser-dependant).

i think they compliment each other pretty well, which is why i considered picking up fox for a long while. i've never been able to get fox to work for me though, since the way he plays and controls goes completely against what yoshi is able to do. i'd assume the same would apply for a fox main trying out yoshi; like yeah, maybe you could learn some ways to play the game differently, but there's very little yoshi can do that could also be applied to fox since they're polar opposites.

Ironically enough, I can't for the life of me get Fox to win me a single match. It boggles my mind how Fox is such high tier, yet I can't get a single match won with him. I seem to have, though, better luck with Yoshi. Maybe its because I've used him more in my Smash experience.

I notice Yoshi can meteor smash and Fox can't. I mean, you could try getting Fox to do a meteor smash, but it would greatly hinder Fox's ability to recover by the time Fox completed his downward smash, and even if you KO'd your opponent, your opponent would most likely KO you as well.

Yoshi can fall fast-well, with his ground pound, although at times I wish you could cancel that move.

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

Is uptilt safe on shield?

 

[Codaption]

Not by a long shot.

Neither is dtilt, but I've found it to be nice to use sometimes since it's so hard to punish on reaction.

 

[Pixel_]

Should I make it a habit of using rising Fair out of a short hop or is landing Fair just fine? Landing Fair feels like it's easier to have followups, but it has ending lag whereas rising Fair autocancels.

EDIT: Actually found a combo that's true with landing Fair but not rising Fair, so it actually has some basis.

Rewording the question, which one is safer on shield against an opponent with good OoS options?

EDIT2: You all took too long, so here's another question. Dair's final hit has 200 kbg, does that mean it has a lot or a little knockback growth? I'd guess that it means a lot, but for some reason it always felt like it had a little during matches.

EDIT3: I have a lot of questions. Came across this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/we-need-to-do-something.434561
It actually sounds a lot like our problem as Yoshi mains, except that we don't have ZeRo playing our character. Should we make a thread like this and will it actually get good results?

 

[DJlive]

EDIT2: You all took too long, so here's another question. Dair's final hit has 200 kbg, does that mean it has a lot or a little knockback growth? I'd guess that it means a lot, but for some reason it always felt like it had a little during matches.

A lot of knockback growth but since base knockback is just 60, it's a late kill move. I normally just accidentally kill with it on a stage like battlefield on the top platforms.

I'm starting to realize that I don't really know how to ultilize Yoshi to his fullest on Battlefield and Dreamland, since the platforms kinda mess with eggs. How exactly should I be playing here?

These stages mess with eggs if your opponent camps below a lower platform. That said, Yoshi doesn't really have a best and worst stage. I find it's match up dependent.

Yoshi's strengths in a freer stage such as FD, SV or T&C is that it allows for more egg room. A drawback though is that it makes you more aerial and that sucks against characters with antiairs. If they tend to go that route, I either play grounded as this gameplay is underrated by most Yoshis.

On platforms, Yoshi excels with pokes. Less on eggs really. Utilt, dair, fair and egg pokes work if they're on platforms. Plus like Mario, BF extends Utilt to uair combos by landing on platforms and doing Utilt or uair. The weakness is more on below platform camping that's hard on Yoshi. I shift to offstage play and grounded play for this. Running egg toss reverses, pivot grabs, pivot fsmashes and perfect pivot ftilt work wonders. Or even down b to ledge to egg toss, fair, dair, egg lay or Nair mix ups

 

[Equin0x]

Is there a Yoshi Discord server that I could join? I've picked up Yoshi since 1.1.5.

 

[Pixel_]

Is there a Yoshi Discord server that I could join? I've picked up Yoshi since 1.1.5.

http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshis-disco-rd-dance-floor.426792/

Another question for you guys but I'm really getting annoyed at myself because the questions won't stooooooooop (check my edits for my other post and please answer them if you can k thx bai)

Anyway, how's bidou for Yoshi? I was totally spoiled by Speed Shulk's awesome perfect pivoting and now I can't tell if Yoshi's PPs and dash dancing are actually good or not.

 

[Delta-cod]

Should I make it a habit of using rising Fair out of a short hop or is landing Fair just fine? Landing Fair feels like it's easier to have followups, but it has ending lag whereas rising Fair autocancels.

EDIT: Actually found a combo that's true with landing Fair but not rising Fair, so it actually has some basis.

Rewording the question, which one is safer on shield against an opponent with good OoS options?

Checking the frame data on Fair, we see:

Hitbox active: 16-20 FAF: 44 Landing Lag: 17 Autocancel: 1-3, 40+

So let's run some cases.

Hit with hitbox on frame 16, land as soon as possible -- 17 frame window to be punished.
Hit with hitbox on frame 20, land as soon as possible -- 17 frame window.
Hit with hitbox on frame 16, autocancel on 40 -- 24 frames to land plus landing squat (either 2 or 4 frames not sure) = 26-28 frame window to be punished.
Hit with hitbox on frame 20, autocancel on 40 -- 20 frames to land plus landing squat = 22-24 frames to be punished.

In short, landing asap after connecting with Fair leaves less frames open for you to be punished. However, this doesn't take into account how far you could drift if you didn't land. Presumably you won't drift far outside of Fair's range if you land right after connecting, but if you aim for the auto-cancel you have more time to drift, perhaps adding safety.

It's pretty close either way in my opinion. Seeing as how you probably won't be landing RIGHT as you connect with Fair everytime, and that you won't get as much drift, I'd say retreating-rising Fair may be safer.

EDIT3: I have a lot of questions. Came across this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/we-need-to-do-something.434561
It actually sounds a lot like our problem as Yoshi mains, except that we don't have ZeRo playing our character. Should we make a thread like this and will it actually get good results?

No, don't make a thread like that. We already have a few threads regarding Yoshi's meta in general:

http://smashboards.com/threads/colors-of-yoshi-metagame-discussion-and-tips.395715/
http://smashboards.com/threads/unpopular-opinion-yoshi-is-not-high-tier-evidence-inside.412944/

The meta discussion doesn't see much activity, and the other one's been a hotbed for discussion on why Yoshi is struggling. If we were looking to rally people in a thread, I'd rather see plans made in the meta discussion thread because that's kind of what it's for.

Other than that, board activity has been up lately which is nice, and there have been interesting discussions going on (crawling). I'd like to see more MU stuff happen, but my contributions to that as of now require people with a lot of experience to participate so I can bounce ideas off of them. I'm really just trying to break open the neutral game most of the time, as Yoshi's advantage state is usually great so we need to focus on getting there.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

I have a question why Nair so good tho

 

[Sinister Slush]

Comes out on frame 3 with a relatively huge hitbox for 2 frames, then rest of the 20 frames is abysmal.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

O I meant that in like a salty tone I just lost to a Yoshi by Nair

 

[Codaption]

A lot of knockback growth but since base knockback is just 60, it's a late kill move. I normally just accidentally kill with it on a stage like battlefield on the top platforms.



These stages mess with eggs if your opponent camps below a lower platform. That said, Yoshi doesn't really have a best and worst stage. I find it's match up dependent.

Yoshi's strengths in a freer stage such as FD, SV or T&C is that it allows for more egg room. A drawback though is that it makes you more aerial and that sucks against characters with antiairs. If they tend to go that route, I either play grounded as this gameplay is underrated by most Yoshis.

On platforms, Yoshi excels with pokes. Less on eggs really. Utilt, dair, fair and egg pokes work if they're on platforms. Plus like Mario, BF extends Utilt to uair combos by landing on platforms and doing Utilt or uair. The weakness is more on below platform camping that's hard on Yoshi. I shift to offstage play and grounded play for this. Running egg toss reverses, pivot grabs, pivot fsmashes and perfect pivot ftilt work wonders. Or even down b to ledge to egg toss, fair, dair, egg lay or Nair mix ups

Thank you for this. Dair I was aware of, but Utilt had never crossed my mind and now that I think of it I'm not sure why that is. Pivot
Fsmash sounds pretty fun, though pivot grab doesn't seem worth the commitment imo.

(and personally, I like grounded Yoshi quite a bit. You can do so much great stuff out of a dash with this character, I swear)

 

[DJlive]

Thank you for this. Dair I was aware of, but Utilt had never crossed my mind and now that I think of it I'm not sure why that is. Pivot
Fsmash sounds pretty fun, though pivot grab doesn't seem worth the commitment imo.

(and personally, I like grounded Yoshi quite a bit. You can do so much great stuff out of a dash with this character, I swear)

Well I think the Yoshi grab game is underrated. It's not just dthrow uair. I like fthrow nair/et fair spike too. It's like how Sheik has dthrow uair but also fthrow bf

 

[Egg.]

Does anyone know how exactly Yoshi's grab works in terms of the opponent's hitbox vs Yoshi's hitbox when they're in his mouth? I'm entering a doubles bracket tomorrow and I'm just wondering if my partner will be able to smash them out of my grab without hurting me in the process.

 

[Dang.]

can yoshi shield drop, like off platforms? i can't seem to do it, but im alright at it with other characters

 

[muddykips]

Egg. i know yoshi gets hurt no matter what, since the opponent is inside him. but now that i'm actually considering it, i don't remember if the opponent gets hurt as well, or if yoshi just drops them after getting launched...

either way, just have your partner stand a few feet in front of you and grab release the opponent at them. you'll add some pummel damage that way, too.

EDIT: lol, i just realized the context was doubles, so you probably won't even have time to set up grab release. oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


D Dang. nah, yoshi's the only character that can't shield drop in sm4sh. something about swapping it with our inability to jump OoS from previous games.

 

[Egg.]

Yeah, I guess we'll just have to rely on throw combos then. I'm not really expecting to get super far anyway.

 

[Aleccio987]

I genuinely know nothing about Yoshi. I've never tried using him and I don't usually go against him as I usually play with my friends who don't play him either. I've been told that Yoshi is a good secondary for Tink and just wanted to ask if anyone could give me some beginners advice. Combos? Things to do/avoid? Any techniques or things I need to practice? Thanks.

 

[Codaption]

Well I think the Yoshi grab game is underrated. It's not just dthrow uair. I like fthrow nair/et fair spike too. It's like how Sheik has dthrow uair but also fthrow bf

The reason it's not considered very good is because none of that stuff actually combos. Yoshi doesn't have any real followups off of his grabs, nor does he have a kill throw or even a real damaging throw. This in addition to the poor frame data in his grabs (standing grab and egg lay have awful startup, and pivot/dash grab are extremely punishable on whiff).

That being said, they're not all bad by any means. Yoshi has a solid pummel that can help to cover Yoshi's low-damage throws somewhat, and they're all pretty nice for positioning as well. You can use Uthrow to set up for tech chases on the top platforms of BF and DL with it (on other stages I'm personally toying with the idea of using it at high percents to set up kills with Uair, or possibly Usmash), and of course Bthrow/Fthrow gets opponents offstage or even just away from you.

 

[Pixel_]

What about his grab release? I prefer them over throws almost every time. It's basically a rock-paper-scissors match once the opponent gets released, but I've gotten some broken shields with Down-B.

 

[DJlive]

And that's it, you can't underestimate a throw game just when there's no true combos. Nor can you underestimate Yoshi because he lacks true combos. But I'm thinking though, what gives Yoshi loads of potential is that while there may be no true combos, his frame data allows for loads of almost guaranteed mix-ups as you said.

And oh yeah, my favorite move of Yoshi lately, oos down b. It's a frame 7 move and can kill early. If they shield it, they'll only get their shield broken. Dodge, they get hit by stars. Jab, they'll trade. It's pretty safe, can be b reversed, and punish those people who love to dash attack or approach from the air with an attack. Only thing that's bad about it is that they'll bait it out, but you can also hit it prior to them attacking you.

@Pixel Grab release down b... Hmm that works if you've preconditioned them to shield because you jab. It's like 5050s... But it won't work with the whole cast.

 

[Egg.]

Down+b is great, but a good player shouldn't get their shield broken by it if they're paying attention. If they shield the first hit, the time it takes for the second hit to come out is plenty to roll out of the way and possibly punish if they have a quick dash attack. It's best used as a mixup when they aren't expecting it, kind of similar to Shulk's backslash.

The reverse down+b that people were talking about in the perfect shield thread is a pretty nice option also, I was messing around with it yesterday and was able to land a lot more hits with it than I thought I would.