Q&A Hint Block: Yoshi Question and Answer Thread

[BreakBeatKing]

yeah, pretty sure he means egg roll. there's no way anyone who plays yoshi thinks his neutralb is bad.

egg roll isn't all that great, though i still think it can have some use, e.g. it can be good for catching opponents trying to land.

No, I misspoke, I definitely mean Egg Lay.

 

[JesteRace]

Is Yoshi a good secondary for Luigi?

That is to say: Does Yoshi improve upon Luigi's bad matchups enough to be worth investing time into learning?

I'm interested in Yoshi because I played Yoshi back when the 3DS version dropped and I remember him being fun, but again, as a Luigi main, I don't want to invest serious time into him unless he actually covers or improves upon his bad matchups.

Now I am only recently getting back into the game, so I'm not 100% sure which of Luigi's matchups are actually bad enough for a secondary, but from what I understand; Sheik, ZSS, Rosaluma, and Villager seem to be among the worst for him, but there could be others.

Anyway, just wondering. Yoshi's aerial mobility seems to be perfect for this duo since a lot of Luigi's problems are due to his terrible air speed. But I could be wrong.

 

[Z'zgashi]

He's a pretty good secondary for Luigi aside from the fact that both lose to Sheik and Sheik is Sheik aka everyone plays her.

Aside from that though, yeah. Luigi loses in match ups he cant approach and Yoshi is kinda like approach mix ups the character.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Is Yoshi a good secondary for Luigi?

That is to say: Does Yoshi improve upon Luigi's bad matchups enough to be worth investing time into learning?

I'm interested in Yoshi because I played Yoshi back when the 3DS version dropped and I remember him being fun, but again, as a Luigi main, I don't want to invest serious time into him unless he actually covers or improves upon his bad matchups.

Now I am only recently getting back into the game, so I'm not 100% sure which of Luigi's matchups are actually bad enough for a secondary, but from what I understand; Sheik, ZSS, Rosaluma, and Villager seem to be among the worst for him, but there could be others.

Anyway, just wondering. Yoshi's aerial mobility seems to be perfect for this duo since a lot of Luigi's problems are due to his terrible air speed. But I could be wrong.

Not entirely sure on those matchups, but I aside from SHeik I don't think our matchups with those characters are too bad. Like Imo Rosa and Villager are about even if you're willing to play lame enough and ZSS might be around there too.

 

[JesteRace]

That's good enough for me. From what I understand, there are only a handful of characters that go even or close to even with Sheik anyways, and none of those characters are appealing to me. It's just one of those things where I'm gonna have to get really good at the matchup. Thanks, guys, I think I will go with Yoshi as a secondary

 

[Skailler]

This is propably already well known and has been dissected to no end, but Egg Roll of a platform can give Yoshi a ridiculous speed increase if timed right, essentially moving him over the ground with a hitbox at a pretty high speed. I can see this somewhat useful for escaping pressure, but how handy is this for offensive tactics? Id say not that much, but then again, Im a crappy Day 1 Yoshi who knows little to nothing about him. I might provide a replay provided I have actually saved it, and even then, its going to be relatively low quality.


On another note, Ive been really interested in picking up Yoshi lately, and Id like to hear some thoughts whether or not Toon Link would be a good addition as a secondary/if Yoshi is a good secondary for TL.

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

This is propably already well known and has been dissected to no end, but Egg Roll of a platform can give Yoshi a ridiculous speed increase if timed right, essentially moving him over the ground with a hitbox at a pretty high speed. I can see this somewhat useful for escaping pressure, but how handy is this for offensive tactics? Id say not that much, but then again, Im a crappy Day 1 Yoshi who knows little to nothing about him. I might provide a replay provided I have actually saved it, and even then, its going to be relatively low quality.


On another note, Ive been really interested in picking up Yoshi lately, and Id like to hear some thoughts whether or not Toon Link would be a good addition as a secondary/if Yoshi is a good secondary for TL.

Its still a pretty useless move even because of that. Dont know much about secondaries to be honest. The matchups yoshi mostly struggles with is probably Diddy, sheik and Meta Knight. Of course there is some more but thats the hardest ones (imo).

 

[stickmansam]

I am thinking about using Yoshi as a secondary to cover Pac-man's bad match ups how does yoshi handle mario and swordsmen characters (mostly cloud and Marth).

 

[Delta-cod]

I am thinking about using Yoshi as a secondary to cover Pac-man's bad match ups how does yoshi handle mario and swordsmen characters (mostly cloud and Marth).

You'll get a lot of different responses to this. The current feel among a lot of Yoshis is that he struggles with sword characters due to range issues. I think he deals with Mario fine, but it's not anything special. As for swordies, I think he also does fine. I don't think Cloud is as good as people say he is, learn to deal with Dair (just shield it and punish OoS usually) and you can juggle him fine. Plus his recovery is bad, so you can abuse him offstage to an extent. Marth is... i dunno much about Marth. I would assume it's not a particularly slanted match up, you just have to be better than your opponent. Marth is a pretty fair character, so...

If you're looking an easy way to cover these MUs, I don't think Yoshi is the way to go. He might be a step up from Pac's chances, though.

 

[ReturningFall]

I am thinking about using Yoshi as a secondary to cover Pac-man's bad match ups how does yoshi handle mario and swordsmen characters (mostly cloud and Marth).

I'm not so sure, Marth at least doesn't tend to care for projectile spam, and I'd say Pac's projectiles are just as threatening as Yoshi's. AFAIK, Diddy and Link are often considered bad matchups. DDD and ZSS are also bad for other reasons.

I'm not as sure how to deal with Cloud.

I've been on the fence on the Yoshi-Marth MU for awhile, but if you are looking to counter Marth you can do better--especially if Cloud is one of the ones you're also looking to take out. I do feel Cloud beats Yoshi pretty solidly.

Mario is probably even with Yoshi, but Yoshi would require alot more practice to start pulling even. Not really secondary material.

Honestly, if you main Pac, I'd consider someone with an actual throw to compensate for Pac's bad throw (i.e. not Yoshi).

 

[Pixel_]

Any setups you guys use when the opponent is hanging on the ledge?

 

[Delta-cod]

Any setups you guys use when the opponent is hanging on the ledge?

My go to in general is to space at about their getup roll distance, and lob eggs up to cover ledge jump/getup/attack.

As for how good this is...well, I haven't really played in a while. But when I did this worked out pretty alright. Hopefully someone else can provide some insight.

 

[GSM_Dren]

My go to in general is to space at about their getup roll distance, and lob eggs up to cover ledge jump/getup/attack.

As for how good this is...well, I haven't really played in a while. But when I did this worked out pretty alright. Hopefully someone else can provide some insight.

Yup pretty much what I do as well. Stand at ledge roll distance and toss eggs to cover whatever getup they choose. Intercept in the air with an egg/aerial, if they roll on jab/utilt (or toss egg directly above).

 

[Yikarur]

I totally forgot that this thread exists. Shame on me !
Yoshi is even or +1 against Mario
Marth and Cloud are even or -1 depending on how much you want to invest into those match-ups. You have to grind the Cloud MU really hard. From personal observation, mid to high level Yoshis struggle really hard with Swordfighters, because the mid-level Yoshi gameplan doesn't work anymore. You have to play very patiently. You need to know the gaps where those characters are punishable very well. I guess you cannot handle Swordfighters with Yoshi if you don't main him tbh.

 

[Codaption]

What about Dsmash? I could see that covering everything barring jump and ledge drop if spaced properly, but I don't know if you'd be able to sweetspot it or if the timing of the move would mess with its coverage.

 

[Yikarur]

Dsmash hits in frame 7-8 and 22-23. All ledge get-ups have exactly 1 vulnerable frame and it's most of the time between frame 31 and frame 34. All Ledge rolls last 49 frame which means if you hit a frame 31 get-up perfectly with dsmash (frame 30 being the only vulnerable frame) the second hit hits on frame 45.
Dsmash does indeed cover normal ledge get-up and ledge roll but the precision you need to hit 1 frame vulnerability on a 2 frame active move is pretty high so it's not going to work out except you're absolutely precise.

I always go for uptilts on get-ups. I have a 99% success quote and it set-ups even more damage.

 

[Codaption]

Wait, one frame of vulnerability on all getup options?

What is this GAME.

(Utilt, though, that's a good idea. I'll keep that in mind, though I don't know how you'd cover roll getup from that.)

 

[dhblademaster]

So, I'm not sure if this has already been discussed, but I had a question about Yoshi's down air. Does it only stale when you activate the move, or does it stale from each individual hit to the next hit?

 

[Codaption]

Yoshi Dair will not stale just by using the move, nor will it stale if it hits a shielding opponent. However, it does stale when it hits an opponent- just by one spot on the queue, though, not for each individual hit of the move.

 

[Codaption]

Hey, how's the Meta Knight matchup? Just out of curiosity.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is there a chart for Jab1 follow-ups at different percents/Rage?

 

[Delta-cod]

Is there a chart for Jab1 follow-ups at different percents/Rage?

No.

Hey, how's the Meta Knight matchup? Just out of curiosity.

Most practical experience currently slates it as really bad, to my knowledge. Ask @Nikes.

Alternatively, some say it's not that bad. Paging @RaptorTEC for that point of view.

 

[Pixel_]

Is there a chart for Jab1 follow-ups at different percents/Rage?

I tried going into Training Mode and seeing which followups counted as a combo, but the results were really wacky.
Jab1 > Ftilt only counted as a combo at around 120% and above, for example, so hopefully someone else can get results since I can't do it with another human being right now.
Edit: also this was on 3ds if that makes a difference

 

[Sinister Slush]

Is there a chart for Jab1 follow-ups at different percents/Rage?

Sadly no, I been thinking of somehow doing this but it'd be kinda difficult to do on the level of what Smashcorner does.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If I have time, I may do it.

Wario doesn't seem to be cutting it. I'm looking for a strong secondary.

 

[Codaption]

Delta-cod Hm, that's a shame. I was hoping he'd be an okay choice for the matchup over Puff, he really eats us hard when he does his Uairs properly.

Speaking of Puff... come back to us, Reflex, we miss you

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Delta-cod Hm, that's a shame. I was hoping he'd be an okay choice for the matchup over Puff, he really eats us hard when he does his Uairs properly.

Speaking of Puff... come back to us, Reflex, we miss you

What are your problems vs. Puff? I've always considered this a good MU for us, though highly unconventional.

 

[Codaption]

Admittedly it's not something I've had to deal with myself thus far, haven't really started making a name for myself in competitive yet so he's one of many matchups I've yet to get real experience in. That being said... Uairs are guarenteed on us. And can kill us at 0. And he can start them off of dash attack, a move that we can't punish oos if spaced right and is super safe in general.

At the very least, they stop being effective at around 20ish% (ask @RDR7 for a more exact range, he's the one who knows it better than me and could prolly give you more about how things go once we get past that point), and it's one of only like three matchups that we really can't handle without a secondary at a high level. So that's nice.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Any videos lying around showing how bad this gets? In my experience, vs. Jiggs comes down to air superiority. If you're on the ground, the best you can really hope for is usmash if they approach wrong, and that can kill. Other than that, rain down nairs and stay mobile. If they do something really stupid, ground pound can get that shield break kill, but you have to be really certain about it because they could punish with rest.

It is weird because we can't play this matchup like any other, but it's important to remember that we're Jiggs' closest match for aerial game.

 

[Pixel_]

Codaption Are you talking about ?

 

[Codaption]

Pixel_ Yes, yes I am.

KenboCalrissian Did you think I meant Yoshi? He's a pretty bad matchup for Puff too for generally different reasons, but since I secondary him he's kinda covered lol.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

KenboCalrissian Did you think I meant Yoshi? He's a pretty bad matchup for Puff too for generally different reasons, but since I secondary him he's kinda covered lol.

I assumed you meant Yoshi vs. Jigglypuff.

 

[Codaption]

Yeah, he's god-awful too, the second of what's likely our three worst matchups (third being ryu).

What you said about Yoshi matching Puff in the air is an understatement. While I can't say for sure if his air game is better than ours as a general thing, he most certainly does so in the mu by a longshot as his aerials outrange ours (and outspeed ours as well, in the case of Nair and Uair). His armored double jump is also a pain as our low-knockback aerials can't do anything about it, making Fairplaning for any reason ineffective and edgeguarding that much harder as a general thing. Eggs are also a pain, as they're a pretty solid projectile and they can both force and impede our approach. And Puff doesn't like that.

The basic jist of it is that he plays like us, except better in just about every way.

 

[HoSmash4]

Whats the best way to mash out of neutral-b?

 

[Pixel_]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwfXtDiQA24

 

[Pixel_]

It's been a full week since the last post, so hopefully you'll excuse my double post.
- Is there any specific mindset I should have when playing Yoshi?
- I'm winning extremely inconsistently with Yoshi, any way I can improve on it? (I know it's a really vague question, but hopefully I can get some insight?)

I'm going to a tournament soon, just wanted to ask these real quick.

 

[The Wall]

This is probably easier to answer if you have some sort of video showing your play style, the moves you generally make and things like that. Then we can evaluate that, see where your mistakes are and try to fix those. Usually fixing the mistakes you make now will open up some new ones and that's the continuing process of trying to make yourself an overall better player.

Whats the best way to mash out of neutral-b?

Well there's a multitude of different ways. If you're wanting to mash out the fastest way, that is by pressing buttons. A, B, Jump are the ones you can usually press the fastest and have the most effect. A simple way to accomplish this is to rest your joint of your thumb just below the a button, then rock your thumb up and down on A/B/Y over and over.

Sometimes mashing out extremely fast isn't always the best if your opponent is ready and waiting with an aerial or some kind of trap like an egg toss. If you want to fake them out, rolling the control stick is a good way to do this. It causes the egg to visibly shake, making them think you'll pop out quickly, when actually it's about half as fast as pressing buttons. Then there's of course not pressing anything at all which leaves you in the egg for an uncomfortable amount of time... but if they're not hitting it then who cares?

 

[KenboCalrissian]

- I'm winning extremely inconsistently with Yoshi, any way I can improve on it? (I know it's a really vague question, but hopefully I can get some insight?)

I'm probably the wrong person to ask, as my ranking has only been getting worse as my skill gets better (really, really, incredibly, stupidly frustrating...) but I'm learning that contrary to Yoshi's status as a rushdown fighter, he greatly rewards patience. Combine that with proper spacing, and you can get some nice early kills with a good read.

As I get better with Yoshi, I find myself using Ground Pound less and less often. It's tempting as a quick way to return to stage or to fish out a shield break, but it's so punishable that you really shouldn't rely on it unless you're prepared to eat some damage, or the opponent is so far out of position that it doesn't matter.

I'd actually like some commentary myself on the last two replays I've posted. Even though I beat that Pac-Man, watching it again it looks really sloppy. I'd be really curious what people think of the vs. Lucas I posted a few weeks ago since I feel I was playing better that day, but still lost to an opponent who I've yet to beat.

I think most of my problems boil down to fatigue - I start throwing stupid stuff out after an hour or more of waiting around in pools, and getting anxious about the next fight certainly isn't helping either.

 

[Pixel_]

This is probably easier to answer if you have some sort of video showing your play style, the moves you generally make and things like that. Then we can evaluate that, see where your mistakes are and try to fix those. Usually fixing the mistakes you make now will open up some new ones and that's the continuing process of trying to make yourself an overall better player.

Here's two matches where I think I totally should've won:

I could blame it on me being tired but that just sounds like I'm making excuses

I'm trying to play a bit more defensively; hopefully that'll help!

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Pixel_

I think could have won those too. What sticks out as negatives were the not safe f-airs on shield and a couple of key missed punishes and misjudgments in the Link game. I make those mistakes too and it's something I'm working on.

You should try and use the c-stick to more of an extreme. Yoshi can perform almost universally safe-on-shield retreating F-airs and B-airs. Try to attack areas you think they might move rather than where they are at the moment. Narrow down their movement options to the point they become predictable. Dodge attacks with jump then c-stick an air attack.

Along with retreating F-airs and B-air and backwards F-airs and B-airs, one neat thing to do is full hop then c-stick D-air at the ascent of the jump you can land relatively safely or net a nice 12% or so if they get hit by it. Drifting D-air or landing D-air or maybe 'don't jump into this D-air' is what I'd consider it. There's also SH FF U-air, but I don't use that as much as I should.

Speaking to the Jigglypuff MU mentioned earlier, I find B-air to have a lot of value in the MU. It's a great psuedo-disjoint for the MU, it feels like Marth vs Puff when it's working right. It doesn't completely wall out Jigglpuff's assault, but there are a lot of good angles to drift by and get a poke in to link hit one or two into three.