Q&A Hint Block: Yoshi Question and Answer Thread

[Codaption]

The best controller layout is the one that YOU are the most comfortable with.

There are marginal benefits/costs to using some layouts, but it ultimately doesn't matter in the long run, as long as you have enough buttons for each action (attack/special/jump/shield/grab) and a C-stick.

I just use the GCC.

L - Shield
R - Jump (Used for OoS stuff)
Z - Grab
A - Attack
B - Jump
Y - Jump
X - Special
C-stick - Smash

The swap between B and X is a leftover from Brawl. However, I find that I like being able to have my thumb over all the major button inputs at once. It feels quite normal to have your thumb curved over X, A, and Y, meaning I can just roll my thumb to get whatever input I need.

Not sure how some doofus on a 2ds could contribute much, but here's my setup anyway for you handheld players out there.

L- Shield
R- Special
A- Jump
B- Also Jump
X- Attack
Y- Grab

I've heard it called unorthodox, but it works wonders. I set it up way back when I was first getting into the game, having issues getting used to the new control scheme and being relatively scrubby at smash in general. Being primarily an airborne fighter, I set attack and jump close together in order to make shorthopping aerials easier to do. Sweet baby Jesus has it done so much more for me than just that. Having the two buttons close together lets me leave tap jump off while still reaping most of the benefits. It's. Awesome.

It works even better with my Rob, having the grab button near attack lends itself naturally to easier z-drop aerials- if you're new to 3ds smash and are still getting used to the controls, you might actually like trying this out in the event that you have an item secondary. The second jump button is basically to get it out of the way, since you can't set your buttons to specific function like in Wii U smash (though, it's also near the grab button, could use that to shave a few frames off of empty hop z-dropping. Should prolly start using that), and Special to separate it from the standard inputs for ease of use. Shield is in the default position, saw no issue there.

TD;LR My setup is great, you should totally use it, insert more advertisement-y stuff here

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What's Yoshi's frame data when he does jabs on shield?

 

[Codaption]

What's Yoshi's frame data when he does jabs on shield?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean to ask about frame advantage/disadvantage, or something else entirely? (if it's that, I'll leave it up to Delta-cod or somebody else to answer that, don't know the exact data on Yoshi jab but I doubt it's safe on shield)

 

[Delta-cod]

Rango the Mercenary Codaption Well, I'm going to continue to pass the torch to someone else who knows the frame data specifically. If we know how much shield stun each hit of jab does, it's a simple thing to calculate. I've carried some posts over from the patch thread which can give some information. First post states jab on shield is better than it was before. Second post explains the new formulas behind calculating frame (dis)advantage on shield.

I'm also excited about Single Jab 1 on shield having 3 less frames of disadvantage meaning Single Jab > Cancel > Option is a tiny bit stronger now. Everything helps.

More great info about the patch discovered by @Shaya.

http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235/

It's a bit confusing but the short version is:

Perfect Shielding frame window was reduced by 1 frame from 1-4 to 1-3 on Shield start-up.

Shield Lock frames (4-11) now are overlapped by Shield Stun frames where before they were added together. However, you still have a minimum of 8 frames of Shield Lock.

Example:

Ganon's Fair had 7 frames of Shield Stun pre-patch and now it has 12 frames. If Ganon hits a Shield during Frame 4 of the Shield's start-up...

Pre-patch, the defender is locked in their shield for 4-11 + 7 frames and can drop shield on Frame 18.

After patch, the defender is locked in their shield for 4 + 12 frames and can drop shield on Frame 16.

Inversely, Sheik's Fair now has 4 frames (up from 1 Frame) of Shield Stun and hits a shield starting up on Frame 4.

Pre-patch, the defender is locked in their shield for 4-11 + 1 frames and can drop shield on Frame 12.

After patch, the defender is locked in their shield for 4-11 frames and can drop shield on Frame 11.

This overall means that using shield briefly is just as strong or stronger than pre-patch but HOLDING shield and being hit with an attack past the Shield Lock frames results in higher Shield Stun than before. In a situation where the opponent is actively trying to abuse this knowledge or trying to Power Shield, our Fair is actually 2 frames worse now if they don't hold Shield.

Math:

Pre-Patch, Fair does 5 frames of Shield Stun. Hits on Shielding Frame 4, opponent can drop shield on Frame 16.

After patch, Fair does 10 frames of Shield Stun. Hits on Shielding Frame 4, opponent can drop shield on Frame 14.

But remember, this is only if they quickly shield then drop it. Most people will most likely hold shield which will result in a nice extra 5 frames of Shield Stun than pre-patch. Knowledge is power.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean to ask about frame advantage/disadvantage, or something else entirely? (if it's that, I'll leave it up to Delta-cod or somebody else to answer that, don't know the exact data on Yoshi jab but I doubt it's safe on shield)

I fought danbi on For Glory. He would do jab1 jab2 after grab pummels. I'd retort with jabs or a grab, and he'd Down B me first.

 

[Delta-cod]

I fought danbi on For Glory. He would do jab1 jab2 after grab pummels. I'd retort with jabs or a grab, and he'd Down B me first.

None of this should be guaranteed.

On a grab release, both the grabber and the victim have equal amounts of lag. Thus, you will ALWAYS be able to shield if Yoshi tries to jab you on release, since shield is Frame 1. If you're trying to hit him, he can also shield it guaranteed.

If you're trying to beat Yoshi's jab with your jab, your jab needs to be faster. Thus, it must hit on frame 2. If it hits on frame 3, the two jabs will interact, leading to a clank (usually) or someone getting their jab beat out.

If Yoshi is successfully hitting you with Down B, you're too slow in whatever you're doing. The first hit of Down B is frame 7.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Thank you. Danbi was a tough opponent and very hard to get around since Yoshi's Fairs have extremely good range. I'm an Ike main, and this is the first time a Yoshi has seriously given me a hard time.

 

[Pixel_]

Mind if I repost? I got completely ignored

Thinking about using Yoshi at least as a secondary, but I have a few questions.
- How important is Wavebouncing?
- Should I set the C-stick to Specials just to Wavebounce easier?
- What should I know?/Is there a guide I should look at?

 

[Delta-cod]

Pixel_ Apologies for the delay/ignore!

I don't think Wavebouncing is not especially important for Yoshi. You can use it for aggressive Egg Lay, but I don't think it's that great. I've always been a technically light Yoshi, so maybe a more technical Yoshi can provide a second opinion. If you deem wavebouncing as important, using C stick as specials might be worth it.

What should you know? Well...everything. Character movement fluidity is key. Understanding how Egg Toss angles work is good. Kill percents, how to do some jab mixups, etc. I dunno, there's not anything...special you should really know, I don't think. You just have to learn the character's moves and then learn match ups. Most of this information can be found on the boards, and specific questions can be asked here or in the MU thread.

 

[dadoeboi101]

Hello boards. My question pertains to ETS (egg toss sliding). The input I'm doing on my controller is essentially a jump-cancelled egg toss, and I can see Yoshi doing a slide, however when I do it, he pretty much moves a bit, and then slides back to his original position while he tosses out the egg. Sometimes, I can achieve my desired motion, where he actually tosses the egg while retreating in the opposite direction, but I can't get it consistently. Is this a problem with my input? Here is an example, if you watch between 3:35-3:40 this person is doing it correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMJxe8Jt-28

Thanks again!

 

[TheRedLemming]

Hello boards. My question pertains to ETS (egg toss sliding). The input I'm doing on my controller is essentially a jump-cancelled egg toss, and I can see Yoshi doing a slide, however when I do it, he pretty much moves a bit, and then slides back to his original position while he tosses out the egg. Sometimes, I can achieve my desired motion, where he actually tosses the egg while retreating in the opposite direction, but I can't get it consistently. Is this a problem with my input? Here is an example, if you watch between 3:35-3:40 this person is doing it correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMJxe8Jt-28

Thanks again!

You're inputting your back direction too late.
If you press back /before/ you toss the egg, you'll do the turnaround, you'll get the slide that is a retreating egg.
If you press back after you toss the egg, you'll do the reverse, and get the slide that is a slide toward your opponent.

 

[dadoeboi101]

You're inputting your back direction too late.
If you press back /before/ you toss the egg, you'll do the turnaround, you'll get the slide that is a retreating egg.
If you press back after you toss the egg, you'll do the reverse, and get the slide that is a slide toward your opponent.

Hmm. Thanks for the reply! Here is what I'm doing. Say I'm facing right. What I'll do is, I'll move the joystick left, jump, and then egg toss to the right by doing a half-moon circle from the left to the right. Is this not the correct input?

 

[TheRedLemming]

Hmm. Thanks for the reply! Here is what I'm doing. Say I'm facing right. What I'll do is, I'll move the joystick left, jump, and then egg toss to the right by doing a half-moon circle from the left to the right. Is this not the correct input?

If you make sure you're inputting "Right" before you hit B, while still moving to the left, yes.
It's dependent on when you put it in, My recommendation is to run directly left, and then move it to the top right and then pressing B.

 

[Baron Omega]

Hey guys its been a while since I was last on here but I came to ask a very difficult question that I cannot answer myself. How do you deal with Ditto's cause all I have had happen to me is I have had a mind blank whenever I vs them because I don't know what to do against myself in a sense its like I am playing against myself. I have lost to two Yoshi ditto's within the span of like 4 months (because I don't end up with them in bracket a lot but have surely plenty of friendlies) so like I don't know what to do in that situation for thing like what to ban against them and stuff like that. I thought to myself I should ask this before I end up against another one in bracket and lose to someone that plays something that I specialize in and have been for a few years :/ so any advice would certainly be appreciated

-Thanks
Baron

 

[Nikes]

Hey guys its been a while since I was last on here but I came to ask a very difficult question that I cannot answer myself. How do you deal with Ditto's cause all I have had happen to me is I have had a mind blank whenever I vs them because I don't know what to do against myself in a sense its like I am playing against myself. I have lost to two Yoshi ditto's within the span of like 4 months (because I don't end up with them in bracket a lot but have surely plenty of friendlies) so like I don't know what to do in that situation for thing like what to ban against them and stuff like that. I thought to myself I should ask this before I end up against another one in bracket and lose to someone that plays something that I specialize in and have been for a few years :/ so any advice would certainly be appreciated

-Thanks
Baron

Who've you been losing to? Sorry to hear you've been having this trouble.
Firstly, there's this thread, has some really good stuff in here: http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-yoshi.415203/
I personally tend to run in at the start, but I'll stay alert and wait for them to commit to something for their first few moves and respond to each one with a punish, eg: fadeback Fair, dash attack or a retreating egg toss slide, depending on their approach, then I'll rush them down if appropriate. Eggs are probably the hardest thing to deal with in the matchup, especially since they control the air so well which tends to be where most Yoshi's feel comfortable the most, so it's very easy to have a mental blank when a large part of your character's game is shut down like that.

 

[Delta-cod]

The Egg Toss wars are usually a matter of who started first. It's basically impossible to take over the Egg Toss game if you were slow to the draw. If you find yourself on the losing end, you've gotta break their camp. This can be done in a couple ways:

1. If you're winning (stock or percent), stand far away and just spot dodge the eggs. Your shield won't break and you won't get hit and it's really easy to do. They'll eventually realize they have to approach. If you know your patience is much greater than your opponent's, you can do this even while losing.
2. Run up and shield the eggs, stay alert, and do something OoS that appropriately responds to how they're dealing with you approaching them. Generally, jumping > something OoS is the best.
3. If you're close enough, SHAD through the egg and then punish them with SHAD Nair or Uair.
4. If you're bold enough, just run under the eggs.

If they're using aerial Egg Tosses a bunch, realize that it's horribly punishable because Yoshi sucks at dealing with people immediately below him. Run under him and Usmash or something.

There's no shame in struggling with the ditto. It's awkward. Yoshi is awkward to fight, especially with himself. It's REALLY easy for Yoshi to cheese himself, since there are lots of situations Yoshi creates that he doesn't even adequately deal with. My advice to you is to think about what Yoshi struggles to deal with, and then just create those situations over and over for your opponent. If you've played Yoshi a long time, you'll have more intricate knowledge of how this is done, so you should be able to come out on top with enough experience and thought.

 

[Baron Omega]

Who've you been losing to? Sorry to hear you've been having this trouble.
Firstly, there's this thread, has some really good stuff in here: http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-yoshi.415203/
I personally tend to run in at the start, but I'll stay alert and wait for them to commit to something for their first few moves and respond to each one with a punish, eg: fadeback Fair, dash attack or a retreating egg toss slide, depending on their approach, then I'll rush them down if appropriate. Eggs are probably the hardest thing to deal with in the matchup, especially since they control the air so well which tends to be where most Yoshi's feel comfortable the most, so it's very easy to have a mental blank when a large part of your character's game is shut down like that.

The Egg Toss wars are usually a matter of who started first. It's basically impossible to take over the Egg Toss game if you were slow to the draw. If you find yourself on the losing end, you've gotta break their camp. This can be done in a couple ways:

1. If you're winning (stock or percent), stand far away and just spot dodge the eggs. Your shield won't break and you won't get hit and it's really easy to do. They'll eventually realize they have to approach. If you know your patience is much greater than your opponent's, you can do this even while losing.
2. Run up and shield the eggs, stay alert, and do something OoS that appropriately responds to how they're dealing with you approaching them. Generally, jumping > something OoS is the best.
3. If you're close enough, SHAD through the egg and then punish them with SHAD Nair or Uair.
4. If you're bold enough, just run under the eggs.

If they're using aerial Egg Tosses a bunch, realize that it's horribly punishable because Yoshi sucks at dealing with people immediately below him. Run under him and Usmash or something.

There's no shame in struggling with the ditto. It's awkward. Yoshi is awkward to fight, especially with himself. It's REALLY easy for Yoshi to cheese himself, since there are lots of situations Yoshi creates that he doesn't even adequately deal with. My advice to you is to think about what Yoshi struggles to deal with, and then just create those situations over and over for your opponent. If you've played Yoshi a long time, you'll have more intricate knowledge of how this is done, so you should be able to come out on top with enough experience and thought.

Yeah well in Melbourne I lost to Jei in a MM but like besides doing it while I was really exhausted at the end of the tournament but then I lost to Dylba last tourney and both times I had just a gross mind blank in what to do it was like I didn't know how to fight myself in a sense and like I lost to another Yoshi at a tournament that didn't count towards anything. But like all those times I was just confused :/

 

[Nikes]

Try and get some friendlies in with them, it sounds like you mostly just need more exposure to the MU. Was your MM with Jei saved or recorded? If so I'd be happy to go over it with you if you'd like, I'd also be happy to ditto you over wifi if you have that.

The next time I'm in Melbourne I'll also be happy to grind the MU with you if that would help.

 

[StriderAaron360]

Hello Yoshi boards! Sonic/Megaman main here. I'm trying to study this matchup, and I was wondering how Yoshi's jump armor works. Any advice would be most appreciated

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

If a move deals enough knockback he will receive full knockback.

 

[| Big D |]

So is this character better than he was in Brawl? Looking at results I want to say no.

 

[Sinister Slush]

He's almost literally a copy paste of brawl but with a change here or there that's than counteracted by another small change that makes that one buff in an area barely noticeable cause X thing over here got nerfed.

INSTANT DOUBLEJUMP THAT DOESN'T DIP DOWN, NOW FASTER. But DR removed DJC etc.
CAN MOVE DURING EGG TOSS. But only limited to two actual hops for a couple examples.

How's firefly doing over there though, haven't seen much from him since P@X.

 

[Baron Omega]

Try and get some friendlies in with them, it sounds like you mostly just need more exposure to the MU. Was your MM with Jei saved or recorded? If so I'd be happy to go over it with you if you'd like, I'd also be happy to ditto you over wifi if you have that.

The next time I'm in Melbourne I'll also be happy to grind the MU with you if that would help.

yeh that would be awesome nikes and unfortunately no man it wasnt but yeh I could probs ditto u on wifi and grind the **** out of it in melboure of unless u are going to QLD for smashbox 5

 

[Nikes]

yeh that would be awesome nikes and unfortunately no man it wasnt but yeh I could probs ditto u on wifi and grind the **** out of it in melboure of unless u are going to QLD for smashbox 5

When's smashbox 5? If it's before SXC I might be able to go to it. It would be good to travel interstate before the big event to boost my game which I really desperately need to do.

We'll talk over Facebook about the wifi dittos

 

[Codaption]

So is this character better than he was in Brawl? Looking at results I want to say no.

Just gonna point out that Yoshi doesn't really get results, good or bad. Not sure how popular Yoshi was but at a higher level he isn't really played all that much in smash 4 (outside of, say, Japan), which is why you don't see him taking a lot of high spots at tourneys.

 

[| Big D |]

It's always an adventure with Firefly. Whether he's taking names at PAX or up against the Sandman. He got a WiiU so maybe you guys can wifi.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's true too, Firefly is the first Yoshi to get top 8 at a major/big regional.

 

[Nikes]

Firefly seems to be doing well which is fantastic. But haven't any Yoshi's in Europe or Japan really gotten top 8 at a major yet? (Not for self promotion, but just want to put this out there, I got 3rd at a major early this year but it probably doesn't count as a major compared to the US ones I guess)

 

[ObZenIV]

None of this should be guaranteed.

On a grab release, both the grabber and the victim have equal amounts of lag. Thus, you will ALWAYS be able to shield if Yoshi tries to jab you on release, since shield is Frame 1. If you're trying to hit him, he can also shield it guaranteed.

If you're trying to beat Yoshi's jab with your jab, your jab needs to be faster. Thus, it must hit on frame 2. If it hits on frame 3, the two jabs will interact, leading to a clank (usually) or someone getting their jab beat out.

If Yoshi is successfully hitting you with Down B, you're too slow in whatever you're doing. The first hit of Down B is frame 7.

It should also be noted that If you carelessly throw out the shield to deal with grab release, Yoshi can Down B and break most shields.

 

[Delta-cod]

Firefly seems to be doing well which is fantastic. But haven't any Yoshi's in Europe or Japan really gotten top 8 at a major yet? (Not for self promotion, but just want to put this out there, I got 3rd at a major early this year but it probably doesn't count as a major compared to the US ones I guess)

You should definitely promote your results more! You place well very consistently, it seems silly to me to not say anything about it. Especially since nobody thinks Yoshi gets results anywhere.

Edit: ObZenIV You can roll away from the first hit of Down B, preventing shield breaks.

 

[~Firefly~]

How's firefly doing over there though, haven't seen much from him since P@X.

I've basically just been doing mediocre at locals, like I have been since this game's release. P@X was a pretty significant outlier for me.

It's always an adventure with Firefly. Whether he's taking names at PAX or up against the Sandman. He got a WiiU so maybe you guys can wifi.

I hate you

 

[Nikes]

You should definitely promote your results more! You place well very consistently, it seems silly to me to not say anything about it. Especially since nobody thinks Yoshi gets results anywhere.

Edit: ObZenIV You can roll away from the first hit of Down B, preventing shield breaks.

Idk, I have a hard time with anything self-promotion so I tend to stay quiet about them, but it does get a little sad when people say Yoshi gets no results after these efforts. But I think we're starting to see better results all around the board lately, everyone's putting in work and it's showing. We just need more rep at majors, that's what everyone wants to see and is likely referring to. *still crossing fingers for that Genesis flight*

Regarding the Down B stuff, something I do sometimes is grounded B reverse my Down B from a ground release after pummeling, since most people instantly roll behind me now. That said, not sure how reliable it is especially since it is possible to escape the 2nd hit but it doesn't hurt to try every now and then, they might not be able to react in time to escape it.

 

[~Firefly~]

Oh, that reminds me. Is anybody else here going to Genesis? I'm pretty much confirmed, and it'd be cool to see a strong presence of Yoshi mains there~

Nikes, what's your situation with your flight? :o

 

[Nikes]

Finally another Yoshi's going <3 Thought I was going to be solo repping him there. ._.
Basically my scene has an upcoming major in a months time and the winner gets flown to the US to compete in Genesis, which is a huge deal being in Australia and all. Problem is I'm still only getting consistent 2nd in my scene, and we're getting a lot of interstate attendance for this tournament because everyone's attracted to the flight. So I don't know what my chances are now, but I have to keep my head up. Even if I don't win the flight I might be able to save up for it myself hopefully.

 

[~Firefly~]

I see. Well, good luck! It won't be easy, but even if you're consistent 2nd, remember that upsets happen more often when the stakes are higher, and if you prepare well enough, you can be the one making those upsets happen.

 

[Baron Omega]

When's smashbox 5? If it's before SXC I might be able to go to it. It would be good to travel interstate before the big event to boost my game which I really desperately need to do.

We'll talk over Facebook about the wifi dittos

yeh smashbox 5 is in january mate and yes we sure will chat over fb about wifi's haha XD

 

[HFlash]

Seeing as the MU Thread is kinda outdated, I'll post here: how do you guys think the Shiek MU is?

 

[ReturningFall]

Terrible.

We really don't have any neutral options. Neither of us kills the other very well, but Sheik has safer setups. We almost have to fraud them out fishing for a lucky smash or just play against someone predictable and aggressive. Sheik is going to go on a BF or throw setup hunt and there's not much we can really do to punish safely.

The sheiks think we go atleast even. But you know what Sturgeon's law would imply.

 

[HFlash]

Ugh, I'm looking for another character to cover up the Shiek and Pika MU and I really like playing Yoshi. Other characters I'm looking into are and possibly .

 

[Sinister Slush]

All 4 of those are pretty much better against Sheik/Pika than Yoshi.
Mario Sheik might be a bit questionable, but Mario does have earlier kills than even Yoshi.