Q&A Hint Block: Yoshi Question and Answer Thread

[Delta-cod]

Wouldn't you have enough time to sweetpot ledge with Yoshi Bomb in that situation, too? Gives your double jump back straight-off, and bypasses a lot of the risk. You can still get your eggs back if you do a normal, roll, or attack getup as well.

Yes, that's also an option. I guess the situation in my mind was something more akin to something like:

• Get caught in combo/try to DJ Nair out of something.
• Get hit by something sending me up.
• Going towards ledge is a bit slow, could get sniped out of Down B, etc.
• Get jump back nao.

Since ledge hogging isn't a thing anymore, the ledge is most certainly preferable. I guess I meant that it's worth it (in general) to Down B to the stage to recover DJ + ET Hops in the event where that's the fastest and least punishable option (can't afford to drift to the ledge).

I suppose it doesn't come up that frequently anymore, but you could also consider it as another option when you've chosen to recover high after using an ET or two.

The more I think about the less I think this is a measure that needs to be taken. In fact, I'm even having trouble coming up with situations where this is better than the ledge. I guess it's just something to keep in mind in terms of risk/reward.

Good show, carry on everyone.

 

[BenGFox]

Hi guys,

I've been experimenting with Yoshi's DAir, but I'm having a bit of trouble telling where the opponent will end up after I hit them. I've tried various angles, number of hits, etc but there doesn't feel to be any pattern that I can discern. Certainly hitting with outside gives a different reaction and sometimes the opponent flies up in the air or falls on their ass, but aside from that I mostly rely on reacting to where they go.

Is there anyway to predict their knockback or a definitive way to set the opponent up with a DAir into combo/kill move?

 

[W.A.C.]

What scenarios make forward tilt worth using over down tilt?

 

[Delta-cod]

What scenarios make forward tilt worth using over down tilt?

Ftilt comes out faster. So I guess whenever you'd need to do something faster than Dtilt. It's angle could be more useful depending as well. Ftilt pops people up, Dtilt sends them away. So if you're looking for juggles or something, Ftilt is preferable.

 

[Codaption]

Hi guys,

I've been experimenting with Yoshi's DAir, but I'm having a bit of trouble telling where the opponent will end up after I hit them. I've tried various angles, number of hits, etc but there doesn't feel to be any pattern that I can discern. Certainly hitting with outside gives a different reaction and sometimes the opponent flies up in the air or falls on their ***, but aside from that I mostly rely on reacting to where they go.

Is there anyway to predict their knockback or a definitive way to set the opponent up with a DAir into combo/kill move?

Dair dishes out damage comparable to a lot of simple combos but fails to provide any reliable followup options in of itself. Fair tradeoff, I'd say, but it CAN set up for juggles if you get them on the ground with it.

Ftilt comes out faster. So I guess whenever you'd need to do something faster than Dtilt. It's angle could be more useful depending as well. Ftilt pops people up, Dtilt sends them away. So if you're looking for juggles or something, Ftilt is preferable.

This is something I've been wondering myself, so thanks for that. I'd still say that dtilt is the better move, though.

 

[Lil redYoshi]

Is there a reliable combo that can end in a spike?

 

[Delta-cod]

Is there a reliable combo that can end in a spike?

Not really. You can try to setup for a spike using Egg Toss, though. If you knock them off stage and then follow up with an aerial Egg Toss, you can perhaps combo the Egg Toss into Fair. Alternatively, you can bait their air dodge with the Egg and then punish with Fair as well.

But no true combos, I don't think. At least no reliable ones...

 

[Codaption]

I think Nair can kinda do it? I dunno, I think they have some silly stuff like that over in the Japanese meta.

Something interesting to note that I've mentioned briefly before, though, is that if they airdodge past Fair the endlag is low enough that you can usually catch them out of it with Nair or maybe Uair (might be character dependent, but I don't think there'd be an airdodge short enough to punish us before we meet them with something of our own- certainly never encountered anything like that myself, anyway). Since all of these moves can kill to some degree, it's pretty useful, and Nair is especially so due to the duration of the move and potential for gimping weaker recoveries.

 

[ReturningFall]

Double Jab -> Fair. But ONLY if they DI wrong and it's on the ledge. Don't ask me what percent.

It's not at all reliable against anyone who knows it can happen (No DI defeats it), but you can use it to knock out a newbie or two who always holds inwards on hit.

 

[Lil redYoshi]

I've noticed that egg throw can set up a fair if you hit them when they're close enough. I've also found that you can egg lay them off a ledge and sometimes follow up with a spike. I still need to try some of these though, and thank you for the suggestions c:

 

[BenGFox]

Thanks for the replies (:

I've been trying to get better at smash, but some of the concepts allude me as I don't think I've reached that higher level mindset just yet. One such thing is Trading.

I hear Yoshi thrives on trading with NAir but how would this apply in game? How does one initiate a trade, or is it more of a reaction? What counts as a good or bad trade?

I'm probably already answering my own question, but... Ideally you'd want to know the match-up and what kind of range & damage the opponent can output and then play around that. Right?

 

[Delta-cod]

Thanks for the replies (:

I've been trying to get better at smash, but some of the concepts allude me as I don't think I've reached that higher level mindset just yet. One such thing is Trading.

I hear Yoshi thrives on trading with NAir but how would this apply in game? How does one initiate a trade, or is it more of a reaction? What counts as a good or bad trade?

I'm probably already answering my own question, but... Ideally you'd want to know the match-up and what kind of range & damage the opponent can output and then play around that. Right?

People say Yoshi thrives on trading because he's heavy and his attacks do a lot of %. Therefore, theoretically, if we trade hits with say, Sheik, over and over, she'll get to 100% way before we do, meaning we should kill her first.

I disagree with this philosophy because Yoshi STILL can't kill well (against good characters). Therefore, trading is BAD because we actually die earlier than our enemy due to the fact that they can reliably kill us before we can get a lucky hit in with our heavily staled Nair or something to kill them.

If you think about it mathematically, say we kill Sheik at 100% guaranteed and she kills us at 200% guaranteed. Say our Nair does 15% and her Fair does like, 4%. And now assume we only trade these moves (no stale, etc).

Sheik dies after the 8th Nair (7 Nairs gets her to 105%, the 8th kills). We die after 51 Fairs (50 to get to 200%, the 51st kills) [or in 1 less move for each, depending on how we define "kill at x%"). In this case, we can trade all day and win easily. We'll have killed Sheik 6 times before we die once.

Now think of a more realistic situation. We get hit with 3 Fairs unanswered before each trade. This means trades happen every 4th Fair.

Now Sheik is doing 16% per iteration and we're doing 15%. She wins in percent, but since we're heavy, we still get to kill her basically twice before she gets to kill us once. Thus, the trading plan is still better.

Now let's get more realistic: We're bad at killing, we can't reliably kill Sheik till 150%. Now we can barely kill her once before she gets us (we'd be at 160% at the kill).

Now let's see some more tragic truths: Sheik actually combos us, meaning she can basically get the first 40%ish of our stock off for free before trading is viable. This reduces our "trading only model" to a situation where we die at 160% instead of 200%. Now we both die at the same time.

Odds are we won't even be strictly trading this often, meaning Sheik ends up ahead based on trades only.

Anyways, that was a very simplistic argument and obviously matches aren't that easy to think of in terms of trading. The general idea is that, since we hit hard, if we can get a hit in for every couple we take, we're pretty okay. I disagree because I think we need percentage advantages because we struggle to kill.

The reason Nair trading is AWESOME is because you're usually trading out of a bad spot. Now THIS works to our advantage, since we can afford that extra little percent in order to kick them for like, 15% and get out of a bad situation. Nair trading is usually good for combo-breaking, for example. Or if you're recovering, you can try to DJ Armor through an attack and counter with Nair.

A bad trade is a trade that puts you further back in percent or keeps you in a bad spot. Say you're trying to trade while offstage, but you trade Nair with an enemy's spike. Well, you just died. Awful trade.

Say Sheik is Fair chaining you and you trade with Nair to break free. Well, you just tacked on about as much percent as she just gave you, plus you're no longer being chained. Awesome trade.

In general, you want to be out-damaging your opponent. This doesn't always refer to what's displayed. Us putting 30% on, say Jigglypuff, is much more valuable than Jigglypuff putting 30% on us, due to killing percent differences. As long as you're putting more effective damage on the opponent than the opponent is putting on you, you're winning.

You should definitely ask me specific questions because I definitely lost focus and started rambling here.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

That's ok. I like rambling.

 

[ReturningFall]

Delta's post is golden. But he forgot to answer your question of how you trade: You just have both player's hitboxes-hurtboxes overlap at the same time.

If both players are in midair, you'll both take damage and knockback. If both players are on the ground, you'll clash--unless one attack is disjoint or there is a (9%?) difference in damage.

To actually land a trade depends on how you're trying to trade. Combo breaking is as easy as mashing attack. Trading with other stuff is basically a kind of read and often requires strict timing to pull off successfully.

 

[BenGFox]

Thank you for the replies once again (:

That was certainly a bit more in depth than I was banking on, but certainly very helpful indeed! Trading makes a lot more sense now (:

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Disjointed attacks will clash the same as nondisjointed attacks.

 

[Lukingordex]

I know this question may sound kinda dumb, but does any Yoshi player actually try to use weak egg throws in neutral?

I've been experimenting with it lately and it seems to be a really great option in Neutral. It's pretty hard to punish it because the egg will get in the way of anyone that tries to punish your end lag (if you get grabbed for example the egg will hit your opponent and you'll be released and maybe even be able to follow up with something).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Just wanna mention Sheik can reliably get Fthrow to bouncing fish on all of the cast 2-4 times depending on fast fall speed weight etc.
So for Yoshi, she can prolly get it off on us 4 times which means about 50-60% so realistically 140% from Delta's post.

As for how you trade... you smash the A button a bunch of times until nair hits during a chain lol.

 

[Codaption]

I'm going to nitpick majorly here and say that speaking entirely from the perspective of kill percent and the ability to land said kill, Jigglypuff would beat Yoshi in a trade- both generally rely on reads to get kills, but when jigglypuff does it you die at around 50% (even less if she gets a rest setup on you rather than just a raw Rest.). Plus Bair now being safe on shield means that we aren't quite as read-reliant as Yoshi, who has no such safe kill moves.

Now, obviously Puff still loses trades, she's friggen Puff. Like I said, just nitpicking

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm going to nitpick majorly here and say that speaking entirely from the perspective of kill percent and the ability to land said kill, Jigglypuff would beat Yoshi in a trade- both generally rely on reads to get kills, but when jigglypuff does it you die at around 50% (even less if she gets a rest setup on you rather than just a raw Rest.). Plus Bair now being safe on shield means that we aren't quite as read-reliant as Yoshi, who has no such safe kill moves.

Now, obviously Puff still loses trades, she's friggen Puff. Like I said, just nitpicking

Evidently I know nothing about Puff in this iteration of Smash.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Basically she's kinda Melee puff again with her bair.
But yeah with with how hard yoshi needs to fish for kills and the shield changes, characters like Puff megaman etc. prolly have a better MU against Yoshi.

 

[Codaption]

Puff Bair is actually kinda the opposite of what it was in melee- rather than being able to WoP you, it's become one of the strongest Bairs in the game (4th strongest when sweetspotted), so while it's still deadly offstage it's for entirely different reasons- in the meantime, Fair has taken its place as a WoP tool. It's also our most reliable killer, but with the nerfs to shield that actually means something now.

While testing is still to be done, it's generally accepted by Puff Boards/Skype chat that the changes to shield were a vast indirect buff to her. Her issues with shield have been fixed somewhat by a plethora of new pressure options, and as a result shieldbreaking with Pound is actually kind of a thing now. Before Yoshi was considered one of her worst matchups, so while it's probably still pretty bad it's worth evaluating some.

 

[DusaViceMarshall4]

Who are all the premiere Yoshi players at the moment.. I found the Wall but he is the only one with any substance to him.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Premiere?
Dunno wut you mean unless you basically mean "good yoshi's"
Then The Wall firefly raptor regralht Zude (if any vids) me DIO (shi-gaming) Polt maybe etc. There's a lot of decent yoshi's to watch

 

[DusaViceMarshall4]

Just the ones who are actually making noise or doing very very good in tourneys. But thank you anyhow. So is it firefly raptor or Firefly and Raptor? And do I put Dio on the youtube search bar.

 

[Sinister Slush]

firefly and raptor. The ones I listed do decent in their scene.
Zude gets first at almost every tourney in Swiss.

For DIO, just search for shi-gaming channel and ctrl+F DIO till you find possible vids. Not 100% sure they get his matches.

 

[DusaViceMarshall4]

Okay i found it. Def gonna check out Zude. Thank you.

 

[BenGFox]

I'd also recommend Aiba. He had a pretty sick set vs Nietono and overall is one of my favourite Yoshi's. He should also be on shi-gaming (:

 

[Indexxical!]

Hi Yoshi friends. I've hit a bump with Yoshi recently and I want to start re-covering my basics once again. Here's a problem I've been meaning to solve.

Why is it that sometimes my down-b will fail to catch the ledge even when I'm facing it and extremely close to it? I've heard that you should have a 100% success rate if you double jump, but I've seen this to be false and I've also confirmed single jumps can work as well. Is there a point where you're just too high up?

I've seen Raptor pull this off perfectly fine pretty much every time he attempts it. There's got to be a surefire way to not SD from this.

 

[Nikes]

There's a few things you need to know, if you hold down while going past the ledge, you'll always fail to grab on. There's also a mechanic that stops you from re-grabbing the ledge within a certain time frame, I think it's about a second or so. Have another go and see if these factors make a difference

 

[Codaption]

It's also worth noting that you can't grab the ledge for 30 frames after you get hit, no matter the power of the attack. Keep this in mind if they toss out something weak, lest you accidentally buffer Yoshi Bomb and fly straight down into blast zone.

 

[Indexxical!]

There's a few things you need to know, if you hold down while going past the ledge, you'll always fail to grab on. There's also a mechanic that stops you from re-grabbing the ledge within a certain time frame, I think it's about a second or so. Have another go and see if these factors make a difference

It's also worth noting that you can't grab the ledge for 30 frames after you get hit, no matter the power of the attack. Keep this in mind if they toss out something weak, lest you accidentally buffer Yoshi Bomb and fly straight down into blast zone.

Thank you for the absolutely wonderful answers. Codaption , that is a completely new piece of info. I really appreciate the fact that I can relieve myself of that monkey on my back.

 

[Codaption]

You're very welcome! I like helping people with stuff like this ^u^

 

[Professor Oats]

Hai guys! Sorry I've been off the skype chat for a while, I've been dying somewhat irl, but still improving my Yoshi. Going to SmashtheRecord this weekend and Nairo and the best Ness in the state are in my pool.

If anyone with Yoshi v Ness experience could give me a few quick tips on the matchup (especially edgeguarding that little punk, for some reason my Yosh has trouble there), I'd be thankful, and hopefully I can make it out of pools.

 

[Pixel_]

Thinking about using Yoshi at least as a secondary, but I have a few questions.
- How important is Wavebouncing?
- Should I set the C-stick to Specials just to Wavebounce easier?
- What should I know?/Is there a guide I should look at?

 

[Jewski]

Currently I use but U was wondering if there was anything better
A- attack
B - special
X- grab
Y- jump
C-stick - attack
L - jump
R - shield
Z - grab

 

[Delta-cod]

Currently I use but U was wondering if there was anything better
A- attack
B - special
X- grab
Y- jump
C-stick - attack
L - jump
R - shield
Z - grab

The best controller layout is the one that YOU are the most comfortable with.

There are marginal benefits/costs to using some layouts, but it ultimately doesn't matter in the long run, as long as you have enough buttons for each action (attack/special/jump/shield/grab) and a C-stick.

I just use the GCC.

L - Shield
R - Jump (Used for OoS stuff)
Z - Grab
A - Attack
B - Jump
Y - Jump
X - Special
C-stick - Smash

The swap between B and X is a leftover from Brawl. However, I find that I like being able to have my thumb over all the major button inputs at once. It feels quite normal to have your thumb curved over X, A, and Y, meaning I can just roll my thumb to get whatever input I need.

 

[The Wall]

The best controller layout is the one that YOU are the most comfortable with.

There are marginal benefits/costs to using some layouts, but it ultimately doesn't matter in the long run, as long as you have enough buttons for each action (attack/special/jump/shield/grab) and a C-stick.

I just use the GCC.

L - Shield
R - Jump (Used for OoS stuff)
Z - Grab
A - Attack
B - Jump
Y - Jump
X - Special
C-stick - Smash

The swap between B and X is a leftover from Brawl. However, I find that I like being able to have my thumb over all the major button inputs at once. It feels quite normal to have your thumb curved over X, A, and Y, meaning I can just roll my thumb to get whatever input I need.

Just to give another example, I'm more of a new-gen player (I've played all of the games for many years but I have only gotten competitive at Smash 4). This is my current layout.

L - Special
R - Grab
Z - Shield
A - Attack
B - Special
Y - Jump
X - Jump
C-stick - Attack

I swapped L to special to help with C-bouncing (using the c stick in conjuction with the left trigger in order to do wavebounce neutral B's, an essential tool for yoshi's to have). I swapped Z and R respectively because the controller I learned this game on came with that as the default setup, so I got used to it. C-stick is set to attack aka tilts just in case I find an opportune moment to get the 1 jab lock on people. That involves holding down on the control stick to crouch, and tapping the c-stick in a diagonal direction to make yoshi jab. I wait until I see Yoshi crouch after that jab (20 frames) and then tap the c-stick again. It lets you get 3 jabs in 1 second which for some characters depending on their weight and where you hit them can lock them for a good while. It also leads to easy setups with multi jabs into smash attacks.

As Delta has said, it's all up to you on what you like. I know a common theme is using L for jump to help with jump cancel up smashes or egg tosses. Figure out what is comfortable for you.

 

[TheRedLemming]

Is there a reliable combo that can end in a spike?

The most reliable I've found depends on a user not DI-ing an upair after an uptilt, you then DJUair, and position yourself for a spike, I've gotten it a couple of times, but again, it relies on your opponent not knowing to DI and let's be real, at higher levels, they know to DI, it's also technically a string because the time between the first and second uair is too long for it to be a true combo.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I usually like having tap jump on for easy jump cancel up smashes or up Bs, but oh god Yoshi cannot do that. If only there was a way to only have tap jump on in shield...