Q&A Hint Block: Yoshi Question and Answer Thread

[YoshiYoshi]

I disagree that SH D-air is bad. It can be used poorly, but timed correctly it's a strong option for punishing approaching grabs. SH D-air out of shield is a very useful tool against tall characters and against even against Yoshi. It loses to mistiming moreso than anything else. It is pretty bad against Pikachu and maybe any character Mario size or smaller though (Mario especially, his dash is very low profile).

On eggroll, besides what is stated, I've found it useful to ram it into things like Sonic's spin-dash and other similar moves where their priority is equal. This forces both characters to stare at each other, regaining control on the same frame. You can bet him to the jab, or if he jabs, you get one of those weird repeating jab 1 situations.

Eggroll is more useful against characters who don't have horizontal projectiles, as you can approach and retreat and try to fake out their reaction. Whether this is successful depends entirely on their reaction time and understanding of the move.

Of course, if they have projectiles, and your timing is very good, Egg Roll can be used to jump over grounded charge ball attacks and can just barely punish their endlag. You might only be able to pull this off once a match because of how ridiculous it is, but easy to punish when expected, but 9% is 9%.

 

[Skitrel]

SHDair has its uses in the neutral. If you've connected a fade away nair or fair without being punished then following up with an SHdair applies a ridiculous amount of shield pressure that the opponent MUST give you an advantage for.

One uair followed by an SHdair is a guaranteed shield break, this forces an opponent to either take the last hits of your dair or suffer the shield break. They're obviously also at that point at a defensive disadvantage with a tiny shield.

This is incredibly effective at conditioning your opponents to run away from you after certain attacks to avoid your dair. Once you have conditioned an opponent to dodge your SHdair you can then follow up with hard reads against the dodge.

Yoshi's pressure game is high.

 

[muddykips]

on some stages, you can try immediately using sideb as the round starts, and the "GO" popup will cover your dumb approach.

it's stupid enough to work sometimes!

 

[noft]

@ Skitrel I still need to test lower percents, tried to combo an upsmash outa it but failed in the video lol
Yoshi infinite jab combo to 160bpm

 

[YoshiYoshi]

It's probably a given, but Yoshi's Jab 1 doesn't infinite with SDI.

I've gotten a 999 combo in training mode just by repeatedly using Egg Lay and catching them again before they land. I'm not sure how reliable the combo counter in training mode should be considered to be.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

The combo counter has some kind of glitch with grabs. It's very acurate otherwise though. ofc it doesn't account for DI though.

 

[Skitrel]

@ Skitrel I still need to test lower percents, tried to combo an upsmash outa it but failed in the video lol
Yoshi infinite jab combo to 160bpm

Cheers for this. I've been incredibly busy today and haven't had time to get in game yet. Your recording is better than my potato vision would have been anyway.

Looking at your video I'd go as far as saying it's definitely 160. It looks like you go slightly slower than the timer in places and the combo counter is dropping the combo when you're going slower than the metronome. It's strict.

Works for his foxtrot too, so the magic timing Yoshi players need to know is coincidentally the same for multiple things. Quite useful.

I wouldn't recommend trying to overuse it as people will get used to SDIing it, but it's particularly useful if you catch someone fastfalling into it or catch them hanging over a ledge.

 

[Delta-cod]

I recall people using songs to internalize the bpm/timing of Wobbling in Melee, so I recommend you pick a 160 bpm song you like and basically jab to that. Trotting is less of a solitaire activity, but you can certainly use a song while practicing.

Now, in my opinion, here's the only one song that we should be jabbing to.

Shake it Off - T. Swift

 

[noft]

Cheers for this. I've been incredibly busy today and haven't had time to get in game yet. Your recording is better than my potato vision would have been anyway.

Looking at your video I'd go as far as saying it's definitely 160. It looks like you go slightly slower than the timer in places and the combo counter is dropping the combo when you're going slower than the metronome. It's strict.

Works for his foxtrot too, so the magic timing Yoshi players need to know is coincidentally the same for multiple things. Quite useful.

I wouldn't recommend trying to overuse it as people will get used to SDIing it, but it's particularly useful if you catch someone fastfalling into it or catch them hanging over a ledge.

i felt as if it were necessary,
time certain jabs different due to percentage, i had a higher success rate doing this, i noticed at lower percentage it was possible to combo the multijab as well, (i beleive i had gotten it to a count of 4-6 a few times starting it in the 30-40 ranges but was dropped shortly after due to lack of practice.). but was easier to make a mistake, it was either a tilt attack or the 2nd jab, if none of those the combo counter wouldnt nudge, so what should be done next? account for the follow up of di and noticing when they get out what to follow up with i would think.

 

[Skitrel]

The obvious followups are dtilt/utilt/usmash/grab.

Regrab against fast fallers/heavies. Tilt or smash against lighter characters that tend to get out of the top of the jab.

I'm currently wondering whether there's an implementation of this that could go in hand with the pummel release. We need to know the punish window for this, if someone perfect shields it(without perfect parry as timing will be impossible for that on a pummel release) how many frames do they have to punish and does the second jab come out too quick to punish anything except the fastest moves possible?

My thinking here is that there might be a combo to be discovered from:

Grab>pummel>groundedrelease>jab1onshield>jab1crouchcancelled>regrab

Timing is going to be rough on the crouch cancel but I think it's quite doable, I've seen Yoshi's use pummelrelease>jab1>usmash which isn't really different.

It hinges on how quick opponents need to be at punishing jab1 on shield. I suspect that it might be quick enough to limit opponent options. At the very least I suspect that the slower grabbing and jabbing characters will still be completely incapable of acting out of shield against jab spam.

Another interesting thought is whether or not opponents are even in range to punish pummel release>jab1.

I also wonder whether the shield pushback from doing pummel release>nair will ultimately make that a viable consistent combo.

Either way I think use of his jab1 cancel is ripe for getting regrabs, and regrabs with Yoshi is going to lead to opportunities for doing high damage very safely.

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

Whats the most viable custom set for Yoshi?

 

[Delta-cod]

You'll probably get some different in answers, but imo it's all defaults with Egg Lay replaced with Egg Launch.

I think numerically that's 2111?

Egg Launch sends enemies far away when you successfully get them, but I think our advantage on Egg Lay is negligible because the opponent is invincible on release. I'd rather send them off stage and claim full stage control with this move. Plus, it's faster.

 

[muddykips]

exploding egg is transcendent until it explodes, so it might be good against campy playstyles, especially other custom ones (e.g. villager).

though, i tried using it for a while, and it's hard to use well...

 

[GSM_Dren]

Whats the most viable custom set for Yoshi?

As of now, it's probably going to be 3111 with Egg launch as neutral B and the rest defaults. Yoshi gets the most mileage out of egg launch compared to the other customs because it will usually send the opponent off stage and give yoshi better stage positioning.

As for the other customs, Lick is alright because it can be used as a kill move, but the command grab is lost. Egg roll customs probably need more experimenting, exploding egg could also possibly be used, but it kills yoshi's recovery options. Lastly, the down B ones aren't all that enticing either.

 

[Delta-cod]

Do Exploding Eggs blow up on contact with the opponent?

I wanna say that they're useful as traps against campers (think SH/FHET with the egg really cutting off their options), but then I remember that normal eggs do basically the same thing and I wonder why we'd bother switching.

If they don't have contact explosion, then the enemy could just like, jump through them and punch us or something.

 

[Codaption]

Since we dont really use Egg Roll for anything, it might be worth it to experiment with a few of those. Light Egg Roll in particular catches my eye, especially since we can go offstage and launch into them with it (as opposed to lightly bopping them the way we do with default). Heavy Egg Roll seems like a big no-no, though, it's way too easy to grab us out of it.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Exploding eggs do not explode on contact. I got most mileage using them as air traps since you can't swat them away and it's much bigger. Also due to having more hitlag and knockback it can combo better with SH egg toss approaches. All in all I think it'd be good to use against characters that are fast enough to deal with standard egg toss easily.

Light Egg Roll is great compared to default. It's faster, better acceleration, covers an area other moves don't, can kill around 120ish and has a lot of interesting interactions with platforms since how high you bounce depends on how close you were to the ground. There are probably some neat movement options that can come from this (including camping )

 

[Codaption]

Light Egg Roll has horizontal-ish knockback, right? I'm still stuck on the idea of yoloing offstage and sending them careening into the blast zone, disrespectful Mac style.

EDIT: It does not. This makes me sad.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

lol Would've been amazing but maybe a bit risky. Nair and dair are capable of that though.

 

[muddykips]

...light egg is really horrible though! and here's a list of why!!

- its trajectory is predictable and impossible to change after initiating the move
- if you want to mix up the trajectory, you have to set up first, which ends up being predictable
- no followups; you're only gonna land one hit
- it doesnt kill until pretty late (low reward)
- it puts yoshi in harm's way
- why wouldn't you just throw eggs????

the only way i'd see anyone benefiting from this move is if your opponent is mindlessly throwing out SH aerials with no disjoints while hanging out in the trajectory of light egg at a really high percent.

or you could try doing it when yoshi has rage, but throwing yourself at an opponent while at high percent strikes me as dumb.

anyways, here's stuff regular egg roll can do!

- jump over some projectiles / attacks and get a punish (it even jumps over most grabs)
- catch people while they're trying to land
- give yoshi a quick grounded approach
- hit the opponent multiple times
- change direction, jump, stall on the ledge, break out whenever's convenient (= mindgames / stalling?)

TLDR; i'd rather have regular egg roll's versatility over something as committal and situational as light egg roll. even if it doesn't play much of a role by itself, it can at least fill in some gaps in yoshi's options.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

You don't make bad points, but light egg roll does give extra mobility options and most people aren't going to know what light egg roll can do. It isn't as fast of an apporach as just running because of the startup and is going to be reacted to. Also keep in mind I'm under the impression that standard Egg Roll is just as situational. Perhaps this isn't the case though, and it'd be helpful to have a video explaining how to use Egg Roll. @RaptorTEC *cough*

 

[Codaption]

How is Light Egg Roll on shield? Up close it's gotta be almost impossible to punish, though if you hit them when coming down the endlag probably makes it much easier.

At the very least, it might be worth checking out for platform stages? It could help us out a little there when just throwing eggs won't.

 

[0Brax0]

So my main question here is how do I work on ground control? I have learned that my play style is very much air based, and when it comes to this, I have a very solid understanding on how to take to the skies, being a Yoshi main, this concept doesn't hurt. However, it has come to my attention that I greatly lack ground control skills, and this has become what many people have called a plateau or mental block for me. I understand the whole concept of ground control and grounded characters, however, I can not seem for the life of me to stay on the ground and often find myself, always opting for SH's when in the same situation I can find videos of very good Yoshi's opting for a more grounded play style. I have tried to good ground control, grounded gameplay, ect..and I can not seem to find anything on this topic beyond my own perceptions and thoughts, which have somewhat been spoken of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGxyCs8JGNg <------- this is a link to one of my most recent tournaments that I went to, just in case that would help the advice at all skip the first game and mainly look at the last 2. Though its not the best of examples mainly because its hard to get ground control with links projectiles...But I do struggle with ground control against Captain falcon, Lil Mac, Greninja, and mainly anyone who can play a good ground game in general.

Anyway, any tips, advice, or feedback would be greatly appreciated. In general, or concerning the video, or just how to get better at ground control.

(I'm sorry if I rambled a bit too much, but I'm trying to cover all my bases here to make sure everything is clear.)

 

[noft]

So my main question here is how do I work on ground control? I have learned that my play style is very much air based, and when it comes to this, I have a very solid understanding on how to take to the skies, being a Yoshi main, this concept doesn't hurt. However, it has come to my attention that I greatly lack ground control skills, and this has become what many people have called a plateau or mental block for me. I understand the whole concept of ground control and grounded characters, however, I can not seem for the life of me to stay on the ground and often find myself, always opting for SH's when in the same situation I can find videos of very good Yoshi's opting for a more grounded play style. I have tried to good ground control, grounded gameplay, ect..and I can not seem to find anything on this topic beyond my own perceptions and thoughts, which have somewhat been spoken of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGxyCs8JGNg <------- this is a link to one of my most recent tournaments that I went to, just in case that would help the advice at all skip the first game and mainly look at the last 2. Though its not the best of examples mainly because its hard to get ground control with links projectiles...But I do struggle with ground control against Captain falcon, Lil Mac, Greninja, and mainly anyone who can play a good ground game in general.

Anyway, any tips, advice, or feedback would be greatly appreciated. In general, or concerning the video, or just how to get better at ground control.

(I'm sorry if I rambled a bit too much, but I'm trying to cover all my bases here to make sure everything is clear.)

ok so i have the same issue against those characters u mention except insert, sheik, captain falcon, sonic, most of the times i recieve punishment for opting to jump out of shield to early or playing chicken with an opponents attack with my own. i like to play fast and fancy, the ground game is pretty difficult as i find my self opting for the skies, besides ets, what happens when u encounter a faster character, yoshi is punished to hard for his slow ass hit animations, his grab? might as well get ur razor ready, ull have a full grown beard by the time u can act out of that crap if missed lmao. my options have turned into sort of a melee mechanic called shffling, short hop fast fall, insert ur footsy games,(dashing shield) (dashing back and forth with pivots) (running grounded egglays or grounded mounbounce egglays) (uturns into multijab combos or smash attacks) have i left anything out? where is my shielding options all my crap is offensive, thats because im sucking at defensive play atm lmao; i know about correct oos jab timings, perfect shielding is difficult for me, spot dodges i feel like im punished before the spot dodge can even fully come out, the oos grab sucks, and egg toss wont work against fast peoples, egg toss out of shield will only work so much in one game, pretty much i know how to be evasive but my grounded defensive options need heavy renovations.

 

[Lawliet626]

im not sure if this has been asked before because this thread is pretty long, but what are the best and worst stages for yoshi? i didn't see a separate stage discussion thread

 

[muddykips]

http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-stage-discussion.381551/

i think it might be playstyle-dependent. for instance, some people like lylat, but personally i REALLY hate going there.

 

[C4-]

Hey guys im a wario main whose tag is C4. I was wondering if there was any high level yoshi players that would be interested in practicing the MU with me. I really struggle in the this particular MU and I have a few big tournies coming up so the practice would be perfect I have been on NorCal's PR twice so i can offer some good wario experience aswell.
(if im posting in the wrong place i apologize, this looked to be the most fitting place to ask.)

 

[Untamed]

Best way to practice precision with yoshi's eggs?

 

[muddykips]

the way i see it, there's only a few general ways you should be able to throw your eggs; up, diagonal, and horizontal.

horizontal is used most often, for when you're above your opponent, or when you're using ETS.
diagonal is used on the ground against opponents that fullhop towards you, like mario or kirby. if you try to just use regular horizontally thrown eggs, it'll go under them.
up is for when your opponent is trying to recover down quickly, like sonic's dair or yoshi's downb. but if you have time to set up for this, there's probably a better punish...

i don't think there's really a need to be "precise", you just have to be able to throw eggs in the enemy's general direction. eggs are fairly big, cover an arc, and explode, so if you throw them right according to the situation, they'll usually hit.

of course there's also short/long throws, but those should be self explanatory P:

 

[Delta-cod]

I'd say that the main use of vertical (up) Eggs is to bait airdodges/setup aerials when you're chasing your opponent from below. Imagine you're trying to edgeguard your opponent. You FH offstage, throw an egg diagonal/mostly up, hoping to either force an airdodge or hit them, then follow up.

I do agree that you can use them in the way you described, but it really is pretty inefficient.

 

[muddykips]

oh yeah! i forgot about that. that's kind of important...

 

[Nikes]

Nice little thing I do with vertical eggs is throwing them right after an Fthrow, almost everybody I've seen immediately tries to jump back to the stage above Yoshi when he Fthrows them, some people will airdodge it but it means you should still be set to get a punish. Even if they don't do it, it still covers an option.

 

[Appdude]

STOP CONSTANTLY THROWING EGGS, AND Y U HAVE NO LANDING LAG AFTER ANYTHINGGGGG.
(Venting over)
Ug......but really. How do you kill yoshi? What are his bad positions/situations, and how do you force him into them? Btw, just throw shield grabbing from landing out the window. This yoshi I fought would just down b the second he lands because yoshi has zero landing lag on his n air, causing my shield to almost break, and him to n air again out of shield.

I main Zard btw.

 

[Masonomace]

Keep calm and Back Slash Footstool him. Yoshi's tend to recover in a rainbow arch pattern so capitalize off those moments. There's a Q&A thread but since you mention Zard, then don't forget you have OoS Fly to punish Yoshi's N-air on block.

 

[YoHeKing]

Charzard actually does pretty good against yoshi. Thats like one of my favorite MUs when I play charzard. I would say its pretty even.

Take yoshi to platform stages and preferably duck hunt(up throw kills at like 50% on tree), dreamland, and BF.

Charzard has alot of good punishing options against yoshi. Like the other guy said OoS up B is really good.
Spaced fairs and spaced back airs should be used alot more often and neutral B to cover landings.

Keep calm and Back Slash Footstool him. Yoshi's tend to recover in a rainbow arch pattern so capitalize off those moments. There's a Q&A thread but since you mention Zard, then don't forget you have OoS Fly to punish Yoshi's N-air on block.

I hope your joking about the footstool part. Unless its FG.

 

[Appdude]

Yes, this is in for glory. I'll post a video when I can for further commenting....

 

[YoHeKing]

Ah. Ill help you out when that video is posted.

 

[Appdude]

Video 1: http://youtu.be/mU5rKjZe-lU - forgive the fail of a recovery

Video 2: http://youtu.be/6XzjYZMAR2g - I do a BIT better. But still lose.

You know, to be honest, yoshi totally confuses. me his combos, his setups, somehow able to attack when he is supposed to be in "end of move lag". the things I pull in these vids nomally work on any other character. (except for roz and luma, I have to WORK to kill those two) I've got a 64.74% win rate in 1on1 for glory, so I don't suck to say the least. I am at my best while using charizard. so ya....Thanks so much btw YoHeKing for offering help. I need to find a way to deal with these yoshis

 

[Delta-cod]

STOP CONSTANTLY THROWING EGGS, AND Y U HAVE NO LANDING LAG AFTER ANYTHINGGGGG.
(Venting over)
Ug......but really. How do you kill yoshi? What are his bad positions/situations, and how do you force him into them? Btw, just throw shield grabbing from landing out the window. This yoshi I fought would just down b the second he lands because yoshi has zero landing lag on his n air, causing my shield to almost break, and him to n air again out of shield.

I main Zard btw.

Thread merged with the Q&A thread.

In the future, please refrain from making titles that are inflammatory/rage-filled.

 

[Appdude]

Thread merged with the Q&A thread.

In the future, please refrain from making titles that are inflammatory/rage-filled.

got it