Q&A Hint Block: Yoshi Question and Answer Thread

[Codaption]

do those 3 extra frames of lag apply to perfect shields as well? cause if so that puts us at a disadvantage when it comes to shielding projectiles.

other than that, i like yoshi's shield. it's strong, and it's also the only shield in the game that can't get shieldstabbed.

@ Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ already answered this kinda, but I'd like to clarify a bit: Perfect Shielding an attack bypasses all shieldstun, almost all (if not all, though I think you still take a tiny amount) shield damage and shield drop lag- you can even drop the shield while the opponent's stuck in freeze frames, if you're prepared for it and/or can react quickly enough. This applies to Yoshi as well.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

That's wrong about perfect shields, sorry I forgot to answer earlier. You keep all freeze frames and shield stun, but get no push back. You can cancel a perfect shield with any attack or special (as long as you buffer the input), but cannot skip shield drop animation by just dropping shield (so you can't dash out of perfect shield without the lag).

 

[Codaption]

Oh... oops. My mistake, thanks for correcting.

 

[swanswan]

I know this is probably a dumb question considering how strong many of the Yoshi players here are, but I've been struggling a lot as I try to practice on For Glory (I'm aware that this isn't a fantastic choice, but it's one of my only ones since I'm not yet ready for something like Smash Ladder) against characters that roll and projectile camp a lot, along with using various random smash attacks. I know about and am trying to read the rolls, but I'm wondering if there are any other approach options Yoshi has that would make this any easier to handle. It would also be wonderful to learn about my options in general against very defensive play, since I always feel choked to approach against characters that don't like to go in.

 

[Delta-cod]

I know this is probably a dumb question considering how strong many of the Yoshi players here are, but I've been struggling a lot as I try to practice on For Glory (I'm aware that this isn't a fantastic choice, but it's one of my only ones since I'm not yet ready for something like Smash Ladder) against characters that roll and projectile camp a lot, along with using various random smash attacks. I know about and am trying to read the rolls, but I'm wondering if there are any other approach options Yoshi has that would make this any easier to handle. It would also be wonderful to learn about my options in general against very defensive play, since I always feel choked to approach against characters that don't like to go in.

Have you tried using Short Hop Air Dodge to approach? You can use the invincibility from SHAD to get through the projectile/camp wall, and there's enough time to Nair/Uair before landing as well.

As far as rolls go, I've got nothing for you there. They can be really hard to deal with, especially online, if your reads aren't on point. You could try using long lasting moves like Dair to catch them, or try Dsmash.

 

[swanswan]

SHAD was actually the first thing I tried! I'll work on perfecting that, because you're probably right in saying it would be a good way through the projectile wall. Perhaps full jump dair into their shield/projectile end lag would work as well. Might run up shield/longer range short hop eggs also be effective?

I think my big issues involve not properly using DSmash, which I hardly use at all, and Dair, which I often use in a punishable way, so I appreciate you bringing those to my attention again. Countering rolls has been easily the most frustrating part of learning this game for me, so anything I can do to solidify my play against that is a big help.

 

[Delta-cod]

SHAD was actually the first thing I tried! I'll work on perfecting that, because you're probably right in saying it would be a good way through the projectile wall. Perhaps full jump dair into their shield/projectile end lag would work as well. Might run up shield/longer range short hop eggs also be effective?

I think my big issues involve not properly using DSmash, which I hardly use at all, and Dair, which I often use in a punishable way, so I appreciate you bringing those to my attention again. Countering rolls has been easily the most frustrating part of learning this game for me, so anything I can do to solidify my play against that is a big help.

FH Dair is a bit risky and slow for my liking. If you're dealing with a projectile wall, you can try SH/FH Egg Toss. Because the eggs sink so much in this game, and since we're so mobile during the toss animation, you can try using aerial Egg Tosses to simultaneously dodge projectiles and pressure with your own. So Eggs are definitely effective, imo.

Run up shield is okay, but I wouldn't do it too close because our OOS options suck. You could definitely close distance with Dash > Shield > Jump OOS > Stuff (SH/FH Egg Toss perhaps?). But getting in their face while shielded is pretty bad, unless you catch them in end lag.

 

[Skitrel]

FH Dair is a bit risky and slow for my liking. If you're dealing with a projectile wall, you can try SH/FH Egg Toss. Because the eggs sink so much in this game, and since we're so mobile during the toss animation, you can try using aerial Egg Tosses to simultaneously dodge projectiles and pressure with your own. So Eggs are definitely effective, imo.

Run up shield is okay, but I wouldn't do it too close because our OOS options suck. You could definitely close distance with Dash > Shield > Jump OOS > Stuff (SH/FH Egg Toss perhaps?). But getting in their face while shielded is pretty bad, unless you catch them in end lag.

To add to this, the SH/FH Egg Toss also works as a great baiting tool. The majority of players have some extremely engrained anti-air habits learned from juggling characters with jumps. Short hop egg toss can regularly bait your opponent into choosing an option they think will punish a landing opponent, this usually works great to bait easy last second before landing nairs.

Just watch out for predictability, this loses to an opponent that realises they can dashcancel usmash you while getting under the egg toss.

Generally I prefer the SHegg toss nair compared to SHADnair. There's less commitment and you can quickly switch it to egg lay or breversed egg lay dependent on how your opponent reacts. It gives us lots of movement options, retreating, reversing, advancing, and so on.

 

[swanswan]

Second question; I've been using tilt stick, but I've come to wonder if c-stick set to smash would be better because of the easier dash cancel up smashes. Is there anything that would be said that might sway me one way or the other?

 

[PhlipDarkRiot]

Second question; I've been using tilt stick, but I've come to wonder if c-stick set to smash would be better because of the easier dash cancel up smashes. Is there anything that would be said that might sway me one way or the other?

Well if you don't use tap jump, you can perform a jump canceled up smash without actually tapping up. If you just have up being pressed at all, sliding from the jump button to the attack button will up smash. Maybe that might feel natural and smooth enough, so you won't have to use the c-stick for that.

You'd have to do that for OoS up smash anyway, I believe.

 

[Skitrel]

Second question; I've been using tilt stick, but I've come to wonder if c-stick set to smash would be better because of the easier dash cancel up smashes. Is there anything that would be said that might sway me one way or the other?

I personally use jump on L-trigger for all my jump-cancels, but it's quite possible to do everything with tilts on cstick and normal button layouts.

The issues with smash on cstick limiting aerial maneouvreability aren't worth it, even if it is only for a split second.

If you have smash on c-stick you also can't use option-select buffered tilts out of perfect shield which I'm slowly finding to be ridiculously useful.

 

[Micaelis]

I have a question... What is the correct way to consistently Egg Toss over the edge right before Yoshi grabs it?

For instance, Yoshi is drifting to the ledge, about to grab it, and then last minute shoots an egg that arcs onto the stage while Yoshi proceeds to grab the ledge.

I saw Raptor doing this pretty consistently and I have a hard time doing it. Most of the time I pop over the ledge and follow the egg or the egg hits the ledge and doesn't arc onto the stage.

I'm assuming it's a certain arc/power combo combined with positioning too. Any help would be great as that seems like a really solid way to alleviate ledge pressure (something I'm currently struggling with a lot). Thanks!

 

[RaptorTEC]

It's literally the angle based on where you're positioned. Practice different directions with the control stick and make sure you're not too below the ledge.

 

[JBones]

Anyone know the min and max timing for Yoshi's fox trot? I'd like to listen to it on a metronome.

 

[Skitrel]

Anyone know the min and max timing for Yoshi's fox trot? I'd like to listen to it on a metronome.

If you find the numbers for this (or work them out yourself) do everyone a favour and make sure you come back to post it. I and others would also like this.

Please!

 

[Nikes]

I've been trying to work this same thing out too, trying to determine our dance trotting window.

 

[Codaption]

Using a metronome is a genius idea. Seconding what Skitrel said, it'll provide an easy teaching tool for players who can't quite get it down.

 

[JBones]

Any tips for going up against a Pikachu? I feel like I get punished with every move I make, and it seemed like he always waited for me to throw out an attack, than punish me for it.

 

[Micaelis]

@ RaptorTEC - Thank you for your response. I'll play around with different angles and powers based off my positioning and see if I can get more consistent at it.

So... long post incoming.

I was analyzing my glaring weaknesses from my matches at my last tournament and these are what I am currently struggling with. I listed them in order of what I struggled with the most at the top. Any general tips or help would be very much appreciated. I also added my own opinion/solution on the weaknesses.

1. Opponents who run up and hold shield or empty SH to grab.

- A lot of high level opponents with great reaction times really abuse the fact that Yoshi has a slow grab against me. Perhaps it is because I'm use to having a quicker grab (I never mained a tether grab character until Yoshi) that this works? Since this is my #1 problem I think I really need to focus on identifying them abusing it and call their action more with standing grabs and Egg Lay. But against fast characters where I have to respect their dash grab/attack or potential SH aerial, my grab doesn't come out fast enough once I react to the fact that they just shielded or empty SH.

2. Playing the Spacing Game

- My play style leans very aerial oriented. Therefore players who projectile space or space within a medium range with disjoints sometimes give me trouble. I think I should stay more grounded in these match ups and learn threat ranges and timings better.

3. My Bad Spacing Habits

- I grounded Egg Throw when they are able to just run under the arc with a fast character or shield the egg and still be fast enough or close enough to punish me or put me in a bad neutral position.
- I Fair too much against shields when landing. Typically they run forward and shield to mess up the perfect spacing. I mix this up with Egg Lay but not nearly enough.

Honestly a lot of these boil down to the opponent just hiding in their shield a lot. I DO Egg Lay and grab what I think is a healthy amount but the good players still know while those end with some decent damage being taken, they will never kill and are worth taking over the multitude of other options I might use. Plus both grab and Egg Lay are pretty punishable if they spot dodge. That mixed with how much Rage they usually have doesn't always end well for me.

I'm hoping you guys have some mind set/neutral game tips for me. Sometimes I feel Yoshi really hurts in the neutral purely because of his grab but maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Maybe try to mixup grab attempts with empty runs or cross up pivot grab. Dash and Pivot grab are somewhat fast and hard to react to compared to Neutral B. Grabing has a lot of problems for the reasons you listed, and is just a flaw of the character afaik. Yoshi can really struggle against shields.

As far as neutral goes, I'd say just try and use less moves and wait for the opponent to choose an option you can punish.

 

[Skitrel]

- I grounded Egg Throw when they are able to just run under the arc with a fast character or shield the egg and still be fast enough or close enough to punish me or put me in a bad neutral position.

There's an adaptive solution to this you can employ mid fight. When you see an opponent doing this start throwing grounded eggs but at the shortest distance straight up.

Opponents that like to run under the arc of eggs will run in, grab or dash attack you then get interrupted by being hit by your egg. You can then usually follow this with nair/utilt/jabs or the occasional usmash.

It's situational but it works in particular against Falcon and Fox.

 

[muddykips]

alternatively, learn to use ETS. it's easy to do, and it gives you so much more than just regular grounded eggs do.

actually, i think that would solve most of the things you listed... opponents won't be able to simply run up and shield / empty sh, since you'll both be throwing a projectile and creating distance for yourself. it also helps both your spacing game and your grounded game.

as for the fairs, you just gotta learn when you can and can't pull something off, and how to mix up your landings in the case where you know you won't get the hit, but that's more something that just comes to you through playing the game. getting your b-reversals / turnarounds down is a good thing to practice, though.

 

[Skitrel]

ETS you can run under too though no? It's just significantly more difficult to and you can switch it up with quick SH breverse egglays to catch aggressive chasers.

 

[muddykips]

to be honest, when opponents are being THAT aggressive, i feel like that's usually a better situation? yoshi wants the opponent to approach so that he can get his hits in, instead of travelling across the map and dealing with defensive playstyles.

unless you're fighting someone tiny. like pikachu.
pikachu is frustrating. x x

 

[JBones]

I don't have the timings, but I've noticed if you flick to dash, there'll be a foot sound, then another after. This seems to be the earliest you can input another dash for a fox trot. Any chance someone could record that and find the difference, or suggest software that I could use to measure it?
On a separate note, it looks like you can vary the distance you foxtrot by changing how long you hold the stick.

 

[Micaelis]

Thank you everyone so much for your responses. I actually already ETS and do the short weak egg toss arc (though not nearly enough!). I'm slowly getting better at knowing when to Egg Toss and shoring up my weaknesses with Yoshi. Being aware of them helps me fix them

I'm about to start working on adding FTC to my movement repertoire since I feel Yoshi definitely needs to spend more time on the ground in some match ups and seems like a great way to make and close space in this game.

 

[Krysco]

My cousin and I have found Yoshi to be one of the most annoying opponent sot find on FG and in the case of my cousin, he doesn't know how to fight the character at all. I've slowly been learning things like Egg Toss or Throw or whatever it's called can be handled like any other projectile, grab release to jab can be perfect shield and certain moves can challenge Yoshi Bomb. However, the two moves that I still don't know how to deal with are dash attack and dair. Dash attack I usually just shield but can't punish and try to bait them into grabbing and then punish that. As for dair...I honestly don't know. It eats shields and does massive damage and it's not the easiest thing to avoid with Yoshi's high aerial movement.

tl;dr how to effectively deal wit dash attack and dair? And for my cousin, which of the following characters are best used against Yoshi and general strategies, namely on FD and Omegas?

 

[JBones]

ETS = Egg Toss?

 

[Codaption]

My cousin and I have found Yoshi to be one of the most annoying opponent sot find on FG and in the case of my cousin, he doesn't know how to fight the character at all. I've slowly been learning things like Egg Toss or Throw or whatever it's called can be handled like any other projectile, grab release to jab can be perfect shield and certain moves can challenge Yoshi Bomb. However, the two moves that I still don't know how to deal with are dash attack and dair. Dash attack I usually just shield but can't punish and try to bait them into grabbing and then punish that. As for dair...I honestly don't know. It eats shields and does massive damage and it's not the easiest thing to avoid with Yoshi's high aerial movement.

tl;dr how to effectively deal wit dash attack and dair? And for my cousin, which of the following characters are best used against Yoshi and general strategies, namely on FD and Omegas?

-Dash attack is a move that's generally difficult to punish, and it's only made worse in lag. However, any character with a good Out of Shield option should be able to take care of it- think Bowser's Whirling Fortress, for an example. Pick a character with an Up Special that can punish it decently well (I see Link in your list of mains, his might fit the bill), or practice your Jump-Canceled Up Smashes if you feel up for it.

-Dair is not a move you really want to shield, and since it beats out spotdodge your only real option is a directional roll (or a counter, if your character has one). Dair doesnt autocancel out of a short hop and has plenty of landing lag, so you'll still have plenty of time to punish it.

-If you can figure out how to challenge Yoshi Bomb, great! However, there's a lot of risk in doing so, and it's not something you really HAVE to use. Spotdodging is a fantastic option in this game that's easier to time and'll give you a wider window to punish the lag on the move (as long as you don't get hit by the stars that spawn on the sides of him). Shielding and rolling are also possible, but the move eats shields like Dair and rolling might make you miss the punish. If you're fighting a stereotypical fg Yoshi, they'll be using this move a LOT whenever you toss them into the air, so make note of this and learn to expect it- you can keep tossing them up every time, they're practically giving you a free hit. (Random note, this also works against Dedede if they land onstage with his Super Dedede Jump.)

Hope this helped a little bit.

 

[Delta-cod]

ETS = Egg Toss?

ETS is Egg Toss Slide. It's basically a Jump Canceled Egg Toss (JCET), gets you a nice slide on the ground while throwing an egg.

 

[Bigherolike6]

What tips do you have for the Pac-Man matchup? I've heard that Yoshi beats Pac-Man but I'm not sure how.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

What tips do you have for the Pac-Man matchup? I've heard that Yoshi beats Pac-Man but I'm not sure how.

My advice for Pac-Man...

Practice using each of his items as well as he does. Know what each item does - it's speed, trajectory, it's knockback. Practice z-air dropping and other item tricks. Definitely practice catching them mid-air when you can. Be as good at items as humanly possibly, because a good Pac-Man will be too.

Approaching Pac-Man from bellow is a losing battle. Don't be overzealous in attacking the hydrant. Good Pac-Men are just waiting for someone to hit the hydrant. Don't Yoshi Bomb while the water is pulsing.

Learn to block Side-B and Dash respectively. One has super armor and the other has no endlag. Punish Side-B before and after the hitbox, punish Dash during the move - before it hit's you (grab) or between hitboxes (N-air OoS).

Yoshi can be shield-stabbed by Up-B after a Dash. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Don't challenge Side-B offstage, but you can gimp Up-B.

Yoshi has a very hard time dealing with Pac-Man item and hydrant spam. No reflector. His smaller shield means he blocks them frames later than other characters, and it's short stature means Yoshi gets hit in the head by hydrants and Galaga more easily than other characters.

I disagree that it's a favorable matchup, but Yoshi can win the game if you play extremely safe and don't rush in to Pac-Man's traps. You have to take what Pac-Man gives you and don't get greedy.

 

[Skitrel]

Anyone know the min and max timing for Yoshi's fox trot? I'd like to listen to it on a metronome.

For anyone wondering...

160bpm

This is the rhythm for both Yoshi's foxtrot timing and his jab infinite on crouch+cstick tilt jab.

I've tested it thoroughly. The timing is correct or as close as to correct as matters and have started to put it to use.

Thinking about it now, I can probably get it more precise by doing the testing at quarter speed and then multiplying the results by 4. I'll apply that tomorrow and see how that result differs from this one, but this is working for me and I'm seeing an improvement with just a couple of hours of metronome practice.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Post a vid of you doing it

 

[Skitrel]

That'll have to wait until tomorrow for a potato video. I'm sure Noft will oblige on stream though if he's about, give him a nudge via Twitch chat or something? Looks like he's live now.

In case people get different results from different metronomes. I used this one: http://a.bestmetronome.com/

 

[ReturningFall]

My cousin and I have found Yoshi to be one of the most annoying opponent sot find on FG and in the case of my cousin, he doesn't know how to fight the character at all. I've slowly been learning things like Egg Toss or Throw or whatever it's called can be handled like any other projectile, grab release to jab can be perfect shield and certain moves can challenge Yoshi Bomb. However, the two moves that I still don't know how to deal with are dash attack and dair. Dash attack I usually just shield but can't punish and try to bait them into grabbing and then punish that. As for dair...I honestly don't know. It eats shields and does massive damage and it's not the easiest thing to avoid with Yoshi's high aerial movement.

tl;dr how to effectively deal wit dash attack and dair? And for my cousin, which of the following characters are best used against Yoshi and general strategies, namely on FD and Omegas?

Also, remember Dash attack likes to cross up shields, so if you play in lag and see it hit, unless he started it early assume Yoshi has crossed you up for when you make your punish attempt. Also, it lasts for a fixed time, so if he hits the ledge he doesn't get as far and the endlag is long enough he can be punished hard.

Dair loses to everything. Especially swords.
Swords actually beat Yoshi bomb if timed perfectly, but I wouldn't try it with anything except Link's Usmash and Uair, which are slightly both risky.

Honestly, the Yoshi's who spam DA and Down air are usually not very good. Focus more on staying safe, watching for patterns and adapting to the lag to play consistently.

Short hop Down air is one of the signs the Yoshi boards uses to spot newbie players. Most of the guys at that play level are just looking to hit with strong moves (roll, smash, sh->dair, dash attack. seem familiar?) because they aren't good enough to use something better. Pick a character you like and focus on playing consistently, not letting the lag get to you and playing your strengths.

Oh yeah, and while rolling beats short hop down air hard, rolling backwards can get you hit by DA. Yoshi is more safe if he guesses a forward roll and retreats the short hop down air to catch you in the endlag of the roll. In short: don't roll.

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

Are there any good secondarys for yoshi?

 

[noft]

That'll have to wait until tomorrow for a potato video. I'm sure Noft will oblige on stream though if he's about, give him a nudge via Twitch chat or something? Looks like he's live now.

In case people get different results from different metronomes. I used this one: http://a.bestmetronome.com/

im going to be testing this out today before i start training for my Melee
MM, so if proven succesful ill upload the vid and post it here.

 

[SharpShot925]

does egg roll have any practical uses? i main wario and yoshi is my secondary and i'd like to improve my yoshi game a bit and i never really use egg roll so i thought to come here.

 

[Skitrel]

Beyond mixup uses - No. There isn't really a practical use to commonly implement it.

Uses I've seen for it:

Mixup approach - Using it for a high speed approach. This can be useful for offstage attacks because of the momentum Yoshi retains when you come out of it during a jump.
Mixup chase - Using the eggroll jump tech to confuse an opponent and score a hit.
Mixup platform chase - Using the eggroll at the correct height to avoid any bouncing causes it to startup at full speed. This can allow for sudden chase downs on running opponents.

It CAN occasionally be used in the neutral to score hits too as people aren't very heavily practiced in the timing needed to punish it. I would not recommend ever doing this deliberately though as fluffing inputs WILL cause you to eggroll accidentally in your matches at some point anyway. You're better off keeping your opponent offguard to it so they don't have practice for the timing when you inevitably mess up an input doing one accidentally.

If you're feeling particularly brave the high speed technique works as a recovery mixup too. The tiny hop from the startup also gives Yoshi a method to get onstage rather than going to ledge grab in certain situations. If you mess up the timing of this you will die though as eggroll at the ledge height is a guaranteed death, Yoshi can not break out quickly enough to return.

The majority of Yoshis will tell you it's completely useless. It's not useless, but don't expect to do it very often.