High Level Marth vs MK Play - NEO vs Omni

[Steel]

NEO asked me to make this thread so we can generate some discussion concerning top level Marth vs MK play.

NEO vs Omni

I feel any current Marth vs MK vids out there aren't exactly good, at least from what I've seen. I think this is the EPITOME of top level marth vs mk metagame.

Discuss

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Omni won this tournament btw, he's def better than me so don't make conclusions off this vid roflx

 

[Punishment Divine]

He raises a valid point. He just kept doing really safe things and he really only lost stocks and even took damage when he started doing unsafe things. Especially his 2nd stock I was like "wtf" when he went for that absurd bair that was pretty much asking for one of those awkward-angle-sending dairs.

I still really just don't know about this matchup. NEO is amazing, no doubt, but all of us aren't at his level -_- I just find the matchup so much easier with Snake and hate the fact that Marth has to work really hard to win and Meta just has to be Meta.

I think this vid is really good for someone who wants to see how Marth should play against MK, but I'm just not convinced that I should drop Snake, like I've tried before, especially when I can just press B and >A a lot and have a better shot at winning than with actually thinking about stuff with Marth.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

That back air wouldn't have normally been absurd had I been facing an MK that I hadn't played before, it usually catches them off gaurd. Omni just knows some of my ****.

 

[magikguy]

well is first hit of side b reliable to get a grab?

uhm was he doing those pivots grabs to space or randomly grab him >_>

 

[Steel]

well is first hit of side b reliable to get a grab?

uhm was he doing those pivots grabs to space or randomly grab him >_>

side b to grab is just a mix up, hoping they will shield after the side b which omni did.

as far as i know his pivot grabs are used for when he thinks they are going to approach him with a dash attack/grab

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Side-b to grab is a gimmick mix-up like jab grab that depends on your opponents habits, there is no gaurentee with it. In matches I usually test it to see if it'll work and if I start taking damage for it consistently I stop doing it.

All anyone really has to do is mash a button everytime they see side-b to avoid side-b to grab

 

[Punishment Divine]

Side-b to grab is a gimmick mix-up like jab grab that depends on your opponents habits, there is no gaurentee with it. In matches I usually test it to see if it'll work and if I start taking damage for it consistently I stop doing it.

All anyone really has to do is mash a button everytime they see side-b to avoid side-b to grab

SHHHHHHHH

dont tell them that

EDIT: @ magikguy - at higher levels of play your goal is pretty much to out-predict your opponent. NEO was using pivot-grabs in attempt to grab his opponent out of whatever approach that he might have thrown out there. They were by no means "random" lawl

 

[MikeSanti]

I really really liked what I saw. It was funny how at times during the video where I would have retreated it turned out Omni went to punish said retreat but NEO was on top of that. I really like your mix-ups. Definitely going to look at the video a bit more.

 

[CO18]

Neo too good.

 

[Nike.]

We should have one of these for Snake and DDD as well

 

[e__]

How to not take damage against MK: Don't take risks

How to do damage to MK: Take some risks

 

[Remzi]

grab release > DS for all three kills lol

good stuff

wish it was more than one match though

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

That's how I try to play against MKs. I use dancing blade as much as possible and just pretty much space Fairs, because it's a somewhat safe move that kind of outranges him. x_x Good match.

 

[GenGastly]

good match, learned a lot about what to do with MK.

 

[Pierce7d]

Interesting. Neo edgeguards MK differently than me (not claiming better or worse).

 

[Pr0phetic]

I have to watch this vid man... When I get inside.

 

[Punishment Divine]

That back air wouldn't have normally been absurd had I been facing an MK that I hadn't played before, it usually catches them off gaurd. Omni just knows some of my ****.

Looking back at the video I see what you're talking about, but I don't think I fully agree with that move still. I think that you were ahead and the risk was unnecessary, especially since he wasn't falling for the same move prior in the match. Who am I to say anything, though, I suck D:

Good **** either way, cause you mixed it up well and avoided getting ***** by that ******** move otherwise. I'll keep watching this if I need more inspiration for this matchup.

 

[ChaosKnight]

Interesting. Neo edgeguards MK differently than me (not claiming better or worse).

thats the thing from what i saw he never really ever edgeguarded him he just let him recover and went back on to the stage where its safe ><


and im starting to like the MK matchup more and more

 

[Omni]

Wtf? This was being recorded?

Thought it was just a regular friendly.

*edit:* tips against MK:
- Be patient. An overaggressive Marth gets *****. Don't play too patient or you'll become predictable. Space tipper f-airs on MK's shield until you can feel the MK's urge to attack, then get ready counter.

- If you think the MK is going to dash from across the screen, Marth can usually dash forward and catch him with a blade dance before the MK can shield.

- Be unpredictable with how you land if you're in the air. NEO is extremely hard to read.

I don't play NEO often, but I have a fair amount of Marth practice so I'm not completely unfamiliar with the match-up. If you play Marth correctly, it becomes very difficult to get in on Marth. Just don't be stupid, don't put yourself in bad situations, and if you find yourself in one don't panic; keep your cool and avoid up+b'ing if you feel like you're in a tight spot. I tried to bait NEO's up+b a lot this match but he wouldn't do it simply because he knows my style is to put you in an uncomfortable position and bait you to do something silly. To be honest, this is a very skeptical match to watch because NEO and I are aware of just how fuggin smart we are (black people mindgames) so this match will look completely different from his Marth vs. another MK or my MK vs. another Marth.

I could use some tips against Marth.

 

[Asimio]

Any more videos on the way? I mean you can't keep this thread going on just one video....


Tsk tsk, racist commentary.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Wtf? This was being recorded?

Thought it was just a regular friendly.

*edit:* tips against MK:
- Be patient. An overaggressive Marth gets *****. Don't play too patient or you'll become predictable. Space tipper f-airs on MK's shield until you can feel the MK's urge to attack, then get ready counter.

- If you think the MK is going to dash from across the screen, Marth can usually dash forward and catch him with a blade dance before the MK can shield.

- Be unpredictable with how you land if you're in the air. NEO is extremely hard to read.

I don't play NEO often, but I have a fair amount of Marth practice so I'm not completely unfamiliar with the match-up. If you play Marth correctly, it becomes very difficult to get in on Marth. Just don't be stupid, don't put yourself in bad situations, and if you find yourself in one don't panic; keep your cool and avoid up+b'ing if you feel like you're in a tight spot. I tried to bait NEO's up+b a lot this match but he wouldn't do it simply because he knows my style is to put you in an uncomfortable position and bait you to do something silly. To be honest, this is a very skeptical match to watch because NEO and I are aware of just how fuggin smart we are (black people mindgames) so this match will look completely different from his Marth vs. another MK or my MK vs. another Marth.

I could use some tips against Marth.

I have a tip, stop rolling and dash attacking ****



GRAB YO DUMB***

 

[BacklashMarth]

 

[3xSwords]

If we are still on the discussion of MK vs Marth at the highest level....

I believe an area any Marth can work on is when ledge guarding MK. I know MK's planking is amazing but actually getting onto the stage is something that Marth can punish all of his options on. Agree or no?

 

[Remzi]

If we are still on the discussion of MK vs Marth at the highest level....

I believe an area any Marth can work on is when ledge guarding MK. I know MK's planking is amazing but actually getting onto the stage is something that Marth can punish all of his options on. Agree or no?

I've been getting a lot better at that.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Yeah. I think Marth's strongest ability is keeping people off of the stage. DB eliminates most of the ground tactics, and even if your opponent jumps and attacks or airdodges, you can punish it. If you just stay at a safe distance away where you can Dtilt poke them off or Fair them if they jump back on, you're golden.

 

[BacklashMarth]

You just need the patience to beat out your opponents planking habits (if they have them) and the aforementioned statements are indeed true.

Side question: At what percent does the grab release DS kill?

 

[Pr0phetic]

You just need the patience to beat out your opponents planking habits (if they have them) and the aforementioned statements are indeed true.

Side question: At what percent does the grab release DS kill?

Fairly early, since MK is light. I dunno but I'd say around 100% on the ledge? Give or take.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I actually like this thread. I think there should be more like this for every match up. I also think there should be more than more Marth up here. Roy R and Kadaj should be up there also. That way we can get different play styles at high levels and break down those games. Pierce should be up there also and shaya.

 

[Steel]

That's why we have a video thread.

We thought this was a special case.

Keep in mind this isn't Marth winning the match, marth isn't doing anything.

This is neo outplaying omni the entire match. That's the only way marth can beat meta.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's why we have a video thread.

We thought this was a special case.

Keep in mind this isn't Marth winning the match, marth isn't doing anything.

This is neo outplaying omni the entire match. That's the only way marth can beat meta.

so the only way Marth can beat MK is neo out playing MK ?

you type fail meat ride moar.

 

[Steel]

Why would you take something so literal?

The person playing marth has to outplay the person playing MK.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Why would you take something so literal?

The person playing marth has to outplay the person playing MK.

Man just make the match up 100-0 in MK favor. Also the video thread doesn't generate conversation about Marth playing at a level vs a certain character the same way this thread does.

 

[Steel]

Are you seriously doubting that Marth has to outplay the MK completely in order to win?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Are you seriously doubting that Marth has to outplay the MK completely in order to win?

Yeah I don't think the match up is a bad as you make it out to be. I don't remember at what point in the video it was but neo had a chance to dair spike omni but instead he goes with a fair. Why not go for the spike and kill on early percentages? Thinks like that go a long way IMO.

 

[Steel]

We've told you MANY times that the dair is impractical.

The match IS as bad as I make it out to be because me and many other people can analyze each character's tools and easily tell that MK is the ceiling that prevents Marth from winning tournaments.

 

[Remzi]

AL:

Just look at it this way.

For (almost) every good tool we have, MK has a faster and longer ranged version of it.

On top of that, he has much safer approach options, a more reliable (though weaker) punishing game, much better recovery, much better gimping ability, an overall better grab game, etc.

For marth to win, he has to be the much smarter player in the match. Otherwise, MK's superior tools will just **** Marth.

If Omni played as well as Neo did and vice versa, Omni would have flat out ***** him.

 

[Albert.]

Doesn't everyone just love when AL wastes your time with useless arguing?





(am I gonna get an infraction for that?)

 

[ChaosKnight]

Yeah I don't think the match up is a bad as you make it out to be. I don't remember at what point in the video it was but neo had a chance to dair spike omni but instead he goes with a fair. Why not go for the spike and kill on early percentages? Thinks like that go a long way IMO.

you obviously dont face ANY good Mks >_> and Neo went for the Fair because it was more practical thatn the Dair where you only have ONE FRAME to connect ....... 0.0

im starting to doubt you know anything about Mk vs Marth or anyother matchups >_>



Oh and to the people who think you can edgeguard MK you are lying to yourself >_> .....

 

[Steel]

you obviously dont face ANY good Mks >_> and Neo went for the Fair because it was more practical thatn the Dair where you only have ONE FRAME to connect ....... 0.0

im starting to doubt you know anything about Mk vs Marth or anyother matchups >_>



Oh and to the people who think you can edgeguard MK you are lying to yourself >_> .....

CK I think they're talking about MK's options to get back on from the ledge. But they're completely for getting about tornado and his other stupid options.

But yeah, you can't challenge his off stage options most of the time.