Hierarchies of Power: The Ganon Community Tier List! (Updated October 8th 2017)

[Vermanubis]

My thoughts align pretty evenly with what Gleed said.

Remember, folks, don't be shy about speaking up about your thoughts. A little difficult to reach conclusions when 15 people lurk but only 3 or 4 speak up.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A tier list is very different from a PR. I think of a player tier list like a character tier list--characters don't become intrinsically worse over time, but rather represent the strongest character relative to others, regardless of the size of the player base. A tier list is more or less a combination of theory, results, and metagame trends.

I think A2 has done a good job at achieving a proper tier list. I think that for a player tier list, activity would be more equivalent to the meta component of a character tier list. Let's use Vex Kasrani as an example--he was probably an S tier Ganon in his time, but since the game has evolved and other players have improved, he certainly wouldn't have that position today (but I think we could still place his Ganon in A tier because many of us were familiar with his playstyle, his competitiveness as a player, and footage of him still exists). I think 6 months of no play by a player is a reasonable time to drop a player due to inactivity, not remove them from the tier list completely. Or even just mark the player as inactive, I don't know.

Character tier lists have characters who are constants and they only change when the metagame alters their constancy.

Human tier lists have a bunch more variables at stake. There's performance, activity, attendance, fundamental and techincal skills. Performance also includes consistency in your placings. So there's always the possibility of huge changes.

Though, I think Vermanubis is making this harder than it should be and he is trying to grasp at straws. I believe he is laying the biggest straw in front of himself to pick up rather than actually going out and finding it for himself.

If you go out, attend and do well, then there should be no question as to you being a good player. This kind of mentality is what seperates the good players from the best players. "It should be like this, this way I have a fair chance of being the best", rather than "I am going to go out and prove myself in a slow but steady pace because I myself know that I am capable of becoming the best".

Thus why I think players like Pon, GTB, Adom, Opana and Koskinator are all capable of proving their worth over time. Because, frankly, you can't whine and make excuses about your lack of activity and at the same time postulate what true performance to be ranked on this list should be.

If you deserve to be ranked higher, I think the vast majority of this community would be supporting you, and, you, once again, wouldn't have to grasp for straws to get there.

 

[Koskinator]

Well said ray charles
And lol get rekt loveexpert b tier 4 lyfe dog represent

 

[LoveExpert]

And lol get rekt loveexpert b tier 4 lyfe dog represent

 

[Vermanubis]

Character tier lists have characters who are constants and they only change when the metagame alters their constancy.

Human tier lists have a bunch more variables at stake. There's performance, activity, attendance, fundamental and techincal skills. Performance also includes consistency in your placings. So there's always the possibility of huge changes.

Though, I think Vermanubis is making this harder than it should be and he is trying to grasp at straws. I believe he is laying the biggest straw in front of himself to pick up rather than actually going out and finding it for himself.

If you go out, attend and do well, then there should be no question as to you being a good player. This kind of mentality is what seperates the good players from the best players. "It should be like this, this way I have a fair chance of being the best", rather than "I am going to go out and prove myself in a slow but steady pace because I myself know that I am capable of becoming the best".

Thus why I think players like Pon, GTB, Adom, Opana and Koskinator are all capable of proving their worth over time. Because, frankly, you can't whine and make excuses about your lack of activity and at the same time postulate what true performance to be ranked on this list should be.

If you deserve to be ranked higher, I think the vast majority of this community would be supporting you, and, you, once again, wouldn't have to grasp for straws to get there.

I don't think I ever said anything about being the best. The point was that those who must commit lots of time and money to compete shouldn't be penalized for periodic inactivity. I can compromise on 6 months being the point of demotion, but just as you say I'm rigging the system to make it easier for myself, I could just as easily say that you're rigging it on the comfort knowing you'll always be within arm's reach of competition.

In short, what's the point of someone such as Adom or myself going out and giving stellar performances, only to know we'll be penalized if we miss three tourneys? (Also worth noting that it's much easier to attend not only when you're local, but when there're multiple tourneys in a single month if one particular weekend just doesn't work for you).

I know you're not the head of my fanclub, Kalm, and that's fine, but I suspect you're a man of enough equity to realize that your privileges may make your ability to objectively assess this somewhat difficult.

Furthermore, your way inherently puts preference on frequent mediocre performances above less frequent good performances. If I get 1st and body my bracket then have some bad luck with scheduling, I don't agree with being demoted with respect to one who is ever present, but never gets anywhere.

 

[Koskinator]

 

[Vermanubis]

No need to fan flames that aren't there, Kosk. Kalm and I are obviously at an impasse, and we need people to discuss this so it's not just Kalm and I telling each other opinions that may never budge.

Also worth noting that I think we should both be prepared to honor what the community thinks. Should we largely go with your way, I'll honor it. I'm confident you feel the same Ray_Kalm

Edit: also, let's not make this about you and me. This discussion will stop being productive the minute we start down that road. I don't think it's appropriate to name drop in this discussion.

 

[Blobface]

In all honesty I think A2 has proven his discretion is more than capable of managing this list, and the final say should be with him.

 

[Vermanubis]

In all honesty I think A2 has proven his discretion is more than capable of managing this list, and the final say should be with him.

Agreed that A2 is to be trusted. Only caution I'd exercise against this is that I think it'd be helpful to have communal input of some form, lest we eventually place all responsibility on poor A2 alone.

I'm not against A2 having final say as a neutral party, but so that no side -- in any issue -- feels that they're being slighted, I'd encourage all who're interested in doing so to let everyone know their thoughts.

 

[Litany]

My opinion most likely isn't the most educated and/or valued, but I thought I might imput my opinion on the matter.

From what I can tell, the tier list is based off of a combination of results and gameplay prowess; hence, players like Kosk are in A-tier rather than S.

In my opinion, players who are motivated by the tier list to go out and achieve results should not be penalized for a dearth of results, as long as the period of inactivity is reasonable (although what is "reasonable" remains to be decided). Obviously the tier list is not the only motivating factor in whether a player travels, but to some it is a rather large pull.

This is just my opinion in the matter; regardless of how relevant it is in comparison to others'.

 

[Opana]

I hate debates and discussions, especially on mobile lol.

 

[mgleed]

I don't think my argument was understood or addressed at all, but that's alright. Really, in my mind, it all comes down to the purpose of the tier list, which I believe is to present the best Ganons in the world. Not the most active Ganons in competitive play, as that's only one measure, and tournament results are really not that objective when you think about it. Regional PR's are interesting, but they don't necessarily represent the best players in the region. Many players are in and out of activity, and PR's are updated monthly. One example here would be Dragonbrain, who is likely top 10 in AZ, but doesn't attend many tourneys.

 

[Koskinator]

Tbh everyone just needs to put their ego in check and take this list alot less seriously. Besides im the best ganon anyways :D

 

[Vermanubis]

I don't think my argument was understood or addressed at all, but that's alright. Really, in my mind, it all comes down to the purpose of the tier list, which I believe is to present the best Ganons in the world. Not the most active Ganons in competitive play, as that's only one measure, and tournament results are really not that objective when you think about it. Regional PR's are interesting, but they don't necessarily represent the best players in the region. Many players are in and out of activity, and PR's are updated monthly. One example here would be Dragonbrain, who is likely top 10 in AZ, but doesn't attend many tourneys.

This is my conception of the tier list too, like I mentioned, hence why I personally put a lot of stock in tourney vids over results in a vacuum. Our aim is to, yes, figure out who the best and worst are, and that obviously means proving in tournament, but if it's known that a Ganon is still cut of a particular thread, it undermines the integrity of the list under that ideal, ie misrepresents actual skill levels with respect to others to demote/promote when the general consensus is contrary. Worth mentioning that just because this way of things is in the interest of those who less frequently attend doesn't necessarily mean we're wrong. I think I've proven I'm a good sport about being moved around, as I currently sit beneath 4 other Ganons

As for this whole discussion, I thought it was pretty reasonable until names were named. No reason this can't be a normal discussion. Opinions can be vigorously debated without being dramatic; provided no one makes it adversarial.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Furthermore, your way inherently puts preference on frequent mediocre performances above less frequent good performances. If I get 1st and body my bracket then have some bad luck with scheduling, I don't agree with being demoted with respect to one who is ever present, but never gets anywhere.

With your method, within the year time frame that you gave, my results at EXP 2015, EGLX and GOML, as well as the recent results GTB, Pon, Opana and Gungnir have put up would remain the greatest achievements Ganon have.

I would expect your S tier to look similar to above.

Speaking of which, A2ZOMG , I'd say that Pon and GTB have been getting better results than I have recently, so, as of right now, with the next update, they should be put above me, followed by Gungnir one below me.

 

[Opana]

I think if you can only attend a small amount of meaningful tournaments and place well, you should be placed high(Like Gungnir and Verm). However, rather than move players down due to inacitivity, I'd keep players where they are and move players above if/when necessary. Scenarios where this may happen involve players that get consistently good results, so they are rewarded for attending many tourneys and placing well, but those with less opportunities aren't penalized.

So if we have say Gungnir in S for great but few results, we keep him in S and move players above him. Technically they're moving down, but I think it's important to keep them within their respective tier until they give us a reason not to. I think inactivity can be a reason to drop, but only if it's complete inactivity for a lengthy amount if time. If a bunch of people passed Gungnir on the list, but he stayed S I don't think there'd be any issues. But if he totally stops activity with the community for like a year maybe, we either put them down a tier or put them in a MIA tier so we don't necessarily discredit their previous accomplishments.

Also, I think S tier should be reserved for players who do get results, because I agree with Kalm that a lot of factors come in to play and to fight against them and still play well is a test of their ability. I think those of us that have been in a tourney setting can attest to the amount of pressure, among other things, that can drastically affect our performance.

Last thing I wanna touch on, I think community input is important across the whole list. I think a2 has done a pretty good job, but I think having the community freely voice their opinions could benefit the list. Like if the vast majority of us disagree on something we should speak up, we all have different and valued opinions.

Despite disagreeing with some things I do want it to be known that I appreciate what you've done a2. I know not everyone is too big a fan of this list but I like that we can have a layer of competitiveness despite playing a terrible character lol. Plus it gives aspiring playersan idea of who to study, which is key to a lot of players improving(LoveExpert for example).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Know that I have read everything leading up to the next scheduled update. For most of our already existing members, on my list of people who probably will explicitly see noticeable rank changes outside of the current S tier are Opana @Deotay Vaataji @P2Koyz @Xinc LoveExpert @BOB R.O.B. Rudori Busutosu and A2ZOMG

@randomguy1235 I'm sorry I got to your stuff late but your performance with Ganon is one of the more impressive ones I've seen on video lately. I could rank you at least B tier from the videos you provided. I'm a bit more critical of your competition than you, personally. You clearly have a good technical handle on Ganon, so reaching the next level for you is more a question of what mindgames and matchup knowledge you develop. You have decent followups, though your edgeguarding is a bit limited, but sometimes I felt you overcommitted to attacks unnecessarily when your opponent wasn't always in range and that this could be costly for you against some higher level competition.

I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to add more people too, but at the moment the main notable ones I recall from the Ganon discord are Alter Requiem @Abbey Street and Lythero.

 

[Swoops]

Tbh everyone just needs to put their ego in check and take this list alot less seriously. Besides im the best ganon anyways :D

Best at the [wifi] Ganon ditto maybe, you jabroni. Absolute **** at the Puff ditto

 

[Koskinator]

Swoops i styled on you so hard in those dittos I'm surprised you even show your mewtwo playin ass in here

 

[Johnluc55]

One possible way to resolve the conflicting views of the tier list (Results vs Who is the best Ganon) is to make two lists. Have a Ganondorf PR that is entirely objective and results based like the PGR and the Ganondorf Tier List, which is our subjective view of who is the best Ganon (this can use results in its determination but isn't bound to them).

 

[Swoops]

I just needed that pocket tournament ready fool. Now that I'm back in the saddle Imma put your old ass in a nursing home.

 

[Koskinator]

Saddle? Like the one I got on your moms thick hips?
Big t*ts and ima give her my long purple. Wiz kick
And when we're done she'll be walkin with a big limp
Ill be your new dad, call me papa big d*ck

 

[Vermanubis]

Let's keep it on topic, boys.

 

[A2ZOMG]

One possible way to resolve the conflicting views of the tier list (Results vs Who is the best Ganon) is to make two lists. Have a Ganondorf PR that is entirely objective and results based like the PGR and the Ganondorf Tier List, which is our subjective view of who is the best Ganon (this can use results in its determination but isn't bound to them).

Ray_Kalm is essentially doing that for me already, so I see that as a non-issue.

 

[Vermanubis]

Ray_Kalm is essentially doing that for me already, so I see that as a non-issue.

Kalm alone is compiling it? Not that I think Kalm would horribly skew it, but that's something I think would be more appropriate to be put to a popular vote given it'd be 100% subjective.

On a side note, this is by no means an accusation of anyone, just an aside on the topic of list integrity, but let's all commit to transparency when it comes to the decisions we make regarding the list. We've done great so far, but let's be careful not to form cliques.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Kalm alone is compiling it? Not that I think Kalm would horribly skew it, but that's something I think would be more appropriate to be put to a popular vote given it'd be 100% subjective.

On a side note, this is by no means an accusation of anyone, just an aside on the topic of list integrity, but let's all commit to transparency when it comes to the decisions we make regarding the list. We've done great so far, but let's be careful not to form cliques.

All I meant was Ray_Kalm is collecting tournament results in a separate thread. Personally me, I don't see a lot of point in making a separate list just to persay order around players based purely on results.

 

[Koskinator]

Im gonna make a tier list too and it goes like this:

S tier: me of course
A-E tier: the rest
Garbage tier: joel
Maggot tier: love expert

 

[Vermanubis]

All I meant was Ray_Kalm is collecting tournament results in a separate thread. Personally me, I don't see a lot of point in making a separate list just to persay order around players based on results.

I'm with you on that. I appreciate the idea J Johnluc55 , but I feel a strictly subjective list has the potential to made a lot of people salty

Moreover, I feel a subjective list could easily make us lazy. If someone hits it high on the opinion-only list, they have no reason to go offline and make an effort, know what I mean?

 

[adom4]

Im gonna make a tier list too and it goes like this:

S tier: me of course
A-E tier: the rest
Garbage tier: joel
Maggot tier: love expert

Does "S" stand for "****ty Canadian wifi"?
If so i agree with your list.

 

[Koskinator]

Pls adom ur jewish we all know you have the cheapest internet available.

 

[LuxAlike]

I've labbed for so long with Ganon, I'm just ITCHING to enter a tourney and see how I can really do.

 

[Alter Requiem]

I'll give ya something to itch.

 

[MezzoMe]

Pls adom ur jewish we all know you have the cheapest internet available.

Find some Italian internet and try to repeat yourself, I double dare you

 

[jmanup85]

Find some Italian internet and try to repeat yourself, I double dare you

Italian internet doesn't count as internet

 

[Opana]

SumDumbAss should be on here next update. I don't know his usual placings but he beat John Numbers in winners, and Kid Goggles told me he beat Raptor once as well. I don't know how consistent he is but I think at the very least the upper half of B is a good start, A is reasonable too as those are big wins. I wish I had an idea of his placings/some solid footage.

 

[mgleed]

My two cents for the next iteration A2ZOMG :

• Tonnura (とんぬら) B tier somewhere. He did pretty well in our ditto's, though I won the majority. He also went to a tournament a few months back and did fairly well. http://smashrecord.harukisb.net/players/5977
• Miya (ミーヤー ) B tier somewhere. He did very well in the crew battle, and he was pretty impressive to watch in the vid.
  
• Mark inactive players such as Potechi (ポテチ) and Papaya (ぱぱいや) with asterisks, or grey out, or something (only was looking at A tier)
• LiQui upper B tier, if he wants in I guess
• LoveExpert second in B tier (lol), A2Z first in B tier or bottom of A
  
• Opana bottom of S

 

[A2ZOMG]

July update is final. Next month's update will be on the 13th of August.

Some personal opinions:
Xinc, Tonnura, and Miya from what I've seen could very well be A tier based on how well they know how to play Ganon in general, but I lack enough information on how they perform in other matchups.

Vataaji lacks tournament results, but I decided to give the benefit of the doubt for A tier. His technical control of Ganon is extremely well above average. As I am trying to avoid shafting people by region, more objectively, I should simply highlight that his competitive aptitude in general is pretty real, and I've seen him adapt to different matchups on video and against me, so thus I have more personal observations to vouch for his skill.

I really wish I had more videos of LiQui, rather than placing him mostly based on hearsay.

I also hate you all for forcing me to rank myself higher into the A tier. Now I actually am working hard to get solo Ganon results.

 

[Vaataji]

I have at long last accomplished something in my lifetime, i can die in peace now.

 

[Naroghin]

Hey everyone, I've been around the Ganon community for quite some time but I've really had a hard time getting going on anything competitive (and have been inactive in the boards/discord as of late), so I was hoping to get on the tier list and use that as a motivator to try and make it to tournaments or at least be more active in the community.

A2ZOMG what do I need to do by the August update in order to be placed?

 

[Koskinator]

Oh my **** opana is S tier good ****in job zach now **** off you ****in ****