Social Hideout of the Phantom Thieves - Joker Social

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I do wonder how Fire Emblem Three Houses is going to handle representation compared to Fates. I don't think we need to discuss where Fates went wrong when it came to representation(Among many, many other things).

Fates is a dumpster fire in regards to anything unrelated to gameplay, the only way to go from there is up. At least Three Houses doesn't seem like it'll encourage "hot for teacher" situations so far.

 

[EarlTamm]

Fates is a dumpster fire in regards to anything unrelated to gameplay, the only way to go from there is up. At least Three Houses doesn't seem like it'll encourage "hot for teacher" situations so far.

Yeah, it helps that the trailer also seems to be insinuate that the social system in this game focuses on the students interactions with no mention of how the professor will factor in. I doubt they will even try to have the player character getting together with one of their students. And let it be known, I think Kawakami is one of the best girls in Persona 5, just not so much in the context of Joker being one of her students.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah, it helps that the trailer also seems to be insinuate that the social system in this game focuses on the students interactions with no mention of how the professor will factor in. I doubt they will even try to have the player character getting together with one of their students. And let it be known, I think Kawakami is one of the best girls in Persona 5, just not so much in the context of Joker being one of her students.

On the other hand, being a teacher gives actual justification for the protagonist to monitor student behaviour and relationships, pairing them up as he/she sees fit.

The protagonist might be more similar to Joker of all people, given he/she appears to be mostly silent.

 

[EarlTamm]

On the other hand, being a teacher gives actual justification for the protagonist to monitor student behaviour and relationships, pairing them up as he/she sees fit.

The protagonist might be more similar to Joker of all people, given he/she appears to be mostly silent.

It is very smart, which gives me a lot of hope for this game when it comes to the writing. The fact that it appears to be a more character oriented story helps as well.

This whole concept and look of the school is giving me Persona vibes now that I think about it.

 

[amageish]

I do wonder how Fire Emblem Three Houses is going to handle representation compared to Fates. I don't think we need to discuss where Fates went wrong when it came to representation(Among many, many other things).

Yes, I think discussing the pitfalls of Fates is maybe a bit played out at this point haha.

The school system does make it seem like they're diving up the social and battle elements of the game more. There is a reason people are comparing it to Trails of Cold Steel....

Yeah, it helps that the trailer also seems to be insinuate that the social system in this game focuses on the students interactions with no mention of how the professor will factor in. I doubt they will even try to have the player character getting together with one of their students. And let it be known, I think Kawakami is one of the best girls in Persona 5, just not so much in the context of Joker being one of her students.

I think Kawakami somewhat worked because you played as the student and consented to it. It's much creepier if you're the Dumbledore of your school and also able to comment students to fight alongside you, get to know you, then marry you...

On the other hand, being a teacher gives actual justification for the protagonist to monitor student behaviour and relationships, pairing them up as he/she sees fit.

The protagonist might be more similar to Joker of all people, given he/she appears to be mostly silent.

Yeah, they seem like an interesting concept for a protagonist if nothing else. I'm cautiously optimistic for it!

 

[Mellowy Yellow]

In a more POSITIVE note, what do you all hope P5R ends up being? I personally hope its a continuation of the original game's story. ( Totally not to spent more time with you know who )

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I assume it'll be a spin-off of some kind. So I don't end up having to double-dip.

 

[EarlTamm]

The school system does make it seem like they're diving up the social and battle elements of the game more. There is a reason people are comparing it to Trails of Cold Steel....

I have heard many things compared to this concept, but that is not one of them. Sounds familiar though...

I think Kawakami somewhat worked because you played as the student and consented to it. It's much creepier if you're the Dumbledore of your school and also able to comment students to fight alongside you, get to know you, then marry you...

True, they portrayed the Kawakami romance route in the best way they could have possibly done, as well as acknowledge the nature of the relationship. Dumbledore is not who I would use as an example though, as our character is a professor and not a headmaster. I would have gone for Snape personally, as our protag reminds me of him and Snape did serve as a Defense Against the Dark Arts for a time, which is basically what our protag is doing. Also, while romance between the students will almost definitely be a thing, they might not go as far as marriage within the timespan of the game due to context. Hopefully there will be no child characters...

 

[amageish]

In a more POSITIVE note, what do you all hope P5R ends up being? I personally hope its a continuation of the original game's story. ( Totally not to spent more time with you know who )

I feel like I came up with an infinite number of ideas back before the teaser trailer, but I think it'll either be a Mario Kart/Party clone or an enhanced version with

Spoiler: P5 Spoilers

a new character who helps you leave jail early, unlocking a new couple months of gameplay which are focused on repairing your relationship with Akechi.

I also think it could easily be both.

I have heard many things compared to this concept, but that is not one of them. Sounds familiar though...

It's a game about a military school with VN social link segments intermixed with combat sections. It's also frequently compared to Persona.

True, they portrayed the Kawakami romance route in the best way they could have possibly done, as well as acknowledge the nature of the relationship. Dumbledore is not who I would use as an example though, as our character is a professor and not a headmaster. I would have gone for Snape personally, as our protag reminds me of him and Snape did serve as a Defense Against the Dark Arts for a time, which is basically what our protag is doing. Also, while romance between the students will almost definitely be a thing, they might not go as far as marriage within the timespan of the game due to context. Hopefully there will be no child characters...

Agreed. Also, very good point about Dumbledore - I for some reason thought "MC chooses the students' class schedule, so they're a headmaster..." And PLEASE NO CHILD CHARACTERS. I loved them in Awakening, but they don't need to come back every time... I'd also rather not have returning characters with new names from alternate worlds again.

 

[EarlTamm]

It's a game about a military school with VN social link segments intermixed with combat sections. It's also frequently compared to Persona.

Interesting.

Agreed. Also, very good point about Dumbledore - I for some reason thought "MC chooses the students' class schedule, so they're a headmaster..." And PLEASE NO CHILD CHARACTERS. I loved them in Awakening, but they don't need to come back every time... I'd also rather not have returning characters with new names from alternate worlds again.

Let's just avoid time and space shenanigans for as long as we can.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Let's just avoid time and space shenanigans for as long as we can.

Yeah. I mean, this isn't Super Robot Wars.

 

[EarlTamm]

BBTAG announcement is probably about to happen now.

 

[amageish]

BBTAG announcement is probably about to happen now.

It happened. Teddie confirmed, in addition to a new BB and Under-Night character plus Arcana Hearts as the fifth franchise.

They also teased a new light blue franchise.

 

[EarlTamm]

It happened. Teddie confirmed, in addition to a new BB and Under-Night character plus Arcana Hearts as the fifth franchise.

They also teased a new light blue franchise.

Moved this from the post I edited it in on while you posted.

Me: "So Naoto, Teddy and Seth has been revealed so far. Where is the RWBY character?
*Heart from Arcana Heart is revealed*
Me: "Well, it sucks that no RWBY character was revealed, but it makes sense that they would get the 5th franchise character made first. I am sure the next time we see a new pack it will have RW-"
*A 6th fate is hinted at*
Me:

Spoiler: Big image

Edit: At least Ruby is in the new art they have released. And she is in the middle no less.

Spoiler: Official Art

Edit 2: Calling it now, 6th fate will be Fate. Don't know anything about the series, just that the color would match up and it fits the sort of things in BBTAG.

 

[GolisoPower]

It happened. Teddie confirmed, in addition to a new BB and Under-Night character plus Arcana Hearts as the fifth franchise.

They also teased a new light blue franchise.

You know, I've been wondering now:

The 5th Fate is confirmed to be Arcana Heart, right? Then maybe the new light blue fate is Asuka and Yumi from Senran Kagura like they were found in the datamine?

EDIT: After doing some research, I can just imagine the flashbacks people would get from Parace L'Sia from Arcana Heart being announced. From what I've seen, she was a friggin' POWERFUL boss!

 

[EarlTamm]

So, opinions on Teddy being in BBTAG?

 

[Mellowy Yellow]

So, opinions on Teddy being in BBTAG?

It was honestly only a matter of time before Teddie got in. Surprised he wasn't in at laun- OH WAIT i remembered exactly why.

 

[EarlTamm]

It was honestly only a matter of time before Teddie got in. Surprised he wasn't in at laun- OH WAIT i remembered exactly why.

And what reason was that?

 

[Mellowy Yellow]

And what reason was that?

Well you know...... Arcsys locking half the og roster as DLC

 

[EarlTamm]

Well you know...... Arcsys locking half the og roster as DLC

It's not like they had all of the characters finished and ready to go at launch. The OG roster was the base game roster.

 

[BZL8]

Well you know...... Arcsys locking half the og roster as DLC

As someone on the TV Tropes forum puts it: "This game is the world's most expensive Mugen setup".

 

[EarlTamm]

As someone on the TV Tropes forum puts it: "This game is the world's most expensive Mugen setup".

I just read that less than an hour or so ago. Got a good chuckle out of it.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

As someone on the TV Tropes forum puts it: "This game is the world's most expensive Mugen setup".

Although part of that is maybe because ArcSys are the only big devs left that openly do fighting games with 2-D visuals (or at least a pretty good simulacrum of them, in regards to recent Guilty Gear).

 

[Deleted member]

So, opinions on Teddy being in BBTAG?

It's cool that he barely made it onto the roster and all, but leaving out one character from the P4 crew has left me grisly.
So where is Adachi?

 

[amageish]

It's cool that he barely made it onto the roster and all, but leaving out one character from the P4 crew has left me grisly.
So where is Adachi?

It's officially just a crossover with P4A, not P4AU. I imagine we'll get Elizabeth next, but whether or not they'd continue to add characters from P4AU after that is a mystery....

 

[Hinata]

It's officially just a crossover with P4A, not P4AU. I imagine we'll get Elizabeth next, but whether or not they'd continue to add characters from P4AU after that is a mystery....

I mean, if they want to keep adding Persona characters, they'd have to. If they add Elizabeth, we'd have the entire original P4A roster.

 

[EarlTamm]

I mean, if they want to keep adding Persona characters, they'd have to. If they add Elizabeth, we'd have the entire original P4A roster.

Considering how they seem to be adding more and more series to the game(They are likely going to add 3 more before the end of this games life span as that would make a perfect diamond symbol), they are going to have to stop putting in characters for certain series eventually just so they can focus on the others.

 

[StormC]

I haven't really checked the thread since the Catherine content, but I wanted to give some points really quick despite moving on:

Spoiler

I've been aware for a long time that Atlus/Hashino have a terrible track record with handling LGBT themes in their games, almost any time one of these characters is introduced they're a punchline. I looked the other way because I thought "well, they just don't know any better, Japanese conservatism and all that," but this Catherine stuff put it to the point where I can't rationalize it anymore. The narrative is still bad because it essentially treats Erica's lack of transition as fine or normal, despite her fully transitioning at this age in the main timeline. I don't think you will find a trans person who sees this and thinks "oh yeah, that's fine," especially in the greater context of how Hashino's games treat this subject matter.

It sucks. Persona 5, despite being a tropey high school JRPG with loads of iffy subject matter, greatly resonated with me from beginning to end. People can go through posts here I made in this thread and see for themselves; Futaba especially connected to me for feeling like the first character written as blatantly autistic that I could actually relate to. I played the epilogue with tears running down my face, not wanting it to be over. Now this all feels kind of tainted. These "accidents" and "misunderstandings" feel more and more deliberate in this context, and that's very frustrating.

I'm no stranger to enjoying "problematic" media. But this is kinda different. Criticism of LGBT content in Atlus games has been vocal both inside Japan and outside it. Discussion of trans issues has changed a lot since 2011 (when Catherine came out) compared to this rerelease and now they're doubling down on it. Why? Even other Japanese companies (at least on the level of mainstream notability as Atlus or higher) will generally just ignore LGBT content if they have nothing progressive to say on it.

Persona 5 is my second favorite game. I loved it dearly and even started an NG+ right after beating it. I got a Phantom Thieves bumper sticker for my car. But this? I don't know. I guess I just need time and distance before I feel like I can enjoy the game again. That's the thing with Joker in Smash; obviously there is nothing wrong with Joker as a character, and I doubt Hashino will financially benefit from his inclusion in Smash, but he's now emblematic of Hashino's most successful work. And right now, this Catherine nonsense is just floating in the back of my head. I'm not going to buy Catherine or any other of Hashino's games going forward though unless there is aggressive course correction. Unless P5R is ported to Switch I will probably skip it too.

tl;dr, it sucks and frustrates me, and affects how I view Persona, but with time I'm sure I'll be able to remove it from that context and enjoy it for what it is.

 

[EarlTamm]

I haven't really checked the thread since the Catherine content, but I wanted to give some points really quick despite moving on:

Spoiler

I've been aware for a long time that Atlus/Hashino have a terrible track record with handling LGBT themes in their games, almost any time one of these characters is introduced they're a punchline. I looked the other way because I thought "well, they just don't know any better, Japanese conservatism and all that," but this Catherine stuff put it to the point where I can't rationalize it anymore. The narrative is still bad because it essentially treats Erica's lack of transition as fine or normal, despite her fully transitioning at this age in the main timeline. I don't think you will find a trans person who sees this and thinks "oh yeah, that's fine," especially in the greater context of how Hashino's games treats this subject matter.

It sucks. Persona 5, despite being a tropey high school JRPG with loads of iffy subject matter, greatly resonated with me from beginning to end. People can go through posts here I made in this thread and see for themselves; Futaba especially connected to me for feeling like the first character written as blatantly autistic that I could actually relate to. I played the epilogue with tears running down my face, not wanting it to be over. Now this all feels kind of tainted. These "accidents" and "misunderstandings" feel more and more deliberate in this context, and that's very frustrating.

I'm no stranger to enjoying "problematic" media. But this is kinda different. Criticism of LGBT content in Atlus games has been vocal both inside Japan and outside it. Discussion of trans issues has changed a lot since 2011 (when Catherine came out) compared to this rerelease and now they're doubling down on it. Why? Even other Japanese companies (at least on the level of mainstream notability as Atlus or higher) will generally just ignore LGBT content if they have nothing progressive to say on it.

Persona 5 is my second favorite game. I loved it dearly and even started an NG+ right after beating it. I got a Phantom Thieves bumper sticker for my car. But this? I don't know. I guess I just need time and distance before I feel like I can enjoy the game again. That's the thing with Joker in Smash; obviously there is nothing wrong with Joker as a character, and I doubt Hashino will financially benefit from his inclusion in Smash, but he's now emblematic of Hashino's most successful work. And right now, this Catherine nonsense is just floating in the back of my head. I'm not going to buy Catherine or any other of Hashino's games going forward though unless there is aggressive course correction. Unless P5R is ported to Switch I will probably skip it too.

tl;dr, it sucks and frustrates me, and affects how I view Persona, but with time I'm sure I'll be able to remove it from that context and enjoy it for what it is.

Luckily he is not involved with Persona anymore. He handed the reins off after Persona 5.

 

[StormC]

Luckily he is not involved with Persona anymore. He handed the reins off after Persona 5.

That's true. Azusa Kido, the game director of Persona 3 Portable and writer of FeMC's route, I think would be a really good choice to handle Persona 6. Kazuhisa Wada is currently in charge of the Persona series, whose main body of work is the spin-offs, but Kido seems like who I would trust. She told Soejima to not focus so much on making the FeMC "cute."

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The transphobic scene at the beach in P3 is completely cut out of the FeMC's route as well. Whether or not that was deliberate, it's a good sign at least.

 

[amageish]

That's true. Azusa Kido, the game director of Persona 3 Portable and writer of FeMC's route, I think would be a really good choice to handle Persona 6. Kazuhisa Wada is currently in charge of the Persona series, whose main body of work is the spin-offs, but Kido seems like who I would trust. She told Soejima to not focus so much on making the FeMC "cute."

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The transphobic scene at the beach in P3 is completely cut out of the FeMC's route as well. Whether or not that was deliberate, it's a good sign at least.

I was literally just about to say that haha. Wada is fine from my memroies of the spin-offs; however, it'd be interesting to see Kido's take on the series. That said, I don't know if we'd have to wait until P6 for her to take over, as it's possible she's directing P5R.

Hashino should have been distracted by Catherine Full Body, Project Re: Fantasy, and conducting interviews where he says **** like this:

When it comes to social phenomena, I think [2019] will be a year where certain backlash will begin. There are a great deal of thoughts and feelings, with a variety of different lives, and I want to be able to experience this with my own skin. I also anticipate big success from Red-Bull Honda. (Translation by Persona Central)

It's possible he was less involved with P5R (or involved at a level similar to P3P).

 

[Sigran101]

People are seriously not going to buy the dlc over this? I don't mean to be insensitive, but seriously. If we boycotted every product that involves someone with offensive views we couldn't buy 90% of the world's products. Don't invalidate the hard work of all the other people involved, including Sakurai and his team, over one person's filth. I know it comes from place of compassion, and I appreciate that. But in practice, it's honestly just petty.

Edit: to clarify, I think boycotting Catherine over this is fine. That's an offensive product. It's boycotting a good product over one offensive person that I'm talking about.

 

[StormC]

People are seriously not going to buy the dlc over this? I don't mean to be insensitive, but seriously. If we boycotted every product that involves someone with offensive views we couldn't buy 90% of the world's products. Don't invalidate the hard work of all the other people involved, including Sakurai and his team, over one person's filth. I know it comes from place of compassion, and I appreciate that. But in practice, it's honestly just petty.

Edit: to clarify, I think boycotting Catherine over this is fine. That's an offensive product. It's boycotting a good product over one offensive person that I'm talking about.

I personally already bought the Fighters Pass, but I would still buy Joker over this. My excitement just took a hit is all. I will probably avoid Hashino's games going forward unless there is drastic change.

 

[EarlTamm]

I wonder how Atlus is going to approach things going forward.

 

[Sigran101]

I personally already bought the Fighters Pass, but I would still buy Joker over this. My excitement just took a hit is all. I will probably avoid Hashino's games going forward unless there is drastic change.

I totally get that. Here's what I do in situations like this. Watch through the credits of P5. Watch as hundreds of names go by and realize that the director doesn't account for even 1% of the man hours that went into it. Look up some of the people with bigger roles and appreciate how much of their creativity went into it. It's easy to see it as one person's project when you hear about a contraversy like this, but all it takes is to put it in perspective and appreciate all the other people who created the game instead.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'd like to present this video as a cautionary tale against being too gung-ho about trying to punish people above all else:

 

[StormC]

I'd like to present this video as a cautionary tale against being too gung-ho about trying to punish people above all else

I'm an adult who can make his own choices regarding what I find objectionable. I'll choose to not buy whatever I want.

 

[amageish]

I wonder how Atlus is going to approach things going forward.

It'll be interesting to see. I dunno if English-language complaining will have much of an affect, but still.

I'd like to present this video as a cautionary tale against being too gung-ho about trying to punish people above all else:

I... don't see how this discussion has been about "punishing" anyone?

Hashino left the role of Persona series director by his own free will. We've been discussing how that could be a good thing and how it'll be interesting to see the series develop without him. Otherwise, different people have mentioned intentions to not purchase Catherine Full Body and other Hashino-directed titles, but if we define "opting not to spend your own money on something you are uncomfortable with" as "punishing the creator," then everyone is constantly "punishing" video game creators by choosing not to buy their titles.

I'm sure elsewhere on the internet there is a focus on punishment, but I think it's pretty chill here?

 

[meleebrawler]

It'll be interesting to see. I dunno if English-language complaining will have much of an affect, but still.



I... don't see how this discussion has been about "punishing" anyone?

Hashino left the role of Persona series director by his own free will. We've been discussing how that could be a good thing and how it'll be interesting to see the series develop without him. Otherwise, different people have mentioned intentions to not purchase Catherine Full Body and other Hashino-directed titles, but if we define "opting not to spend your own money on something you are uncomfortable with" as "punishing the creator," then everyone is constantly "punishing" video game creators by choosing not to buy their titles.

I'm sure elsewhere on the internet there is a focus on punishment, but I think it's pretty chill here?

It's more earlier when the talk was about refusing to buy anything Hashino touched out of a petty desire to not give him any money whatsoever.

 

[EarlTamm]

It'll be interesting to see. I dunno if English-language complaining will have much of an affect, but still.

Isn't there people up in arms about this in Japan as well? I thought I heard that at least.