Heroes Draw Near. Command? (Hero Social Thread)

Social Thread name? The name would be accompanied by the Social thread mention.

  • Patty's Party Planning Place

    Votes: 19 17.4%
  • Patty's Bar

    Votes: 9 8.3%
  • Alltrades Abbey

    Votes: 25 22.9%
  • Heroes draw near. Command?

    Votes: 58 53.2%
  • Other. Please specify in comments.

    Votes: 2 1.8%

  • Total voters
    109
  • Poll closed .

SKX31

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Here's the article: https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2019...-finals-super-smash-bros-ultimate-tournament/

Apparently, it wasn't two insta-kills in a row, per se. It was a snooze that led to a fatal crit F-smash. (Snooze is still basically an insta-kill if it lands though) Then the player that had just died respawned only to instantly die again at 0% to thwack. Stupidly lucky, for sure, but damn that kind of RNG is some premium bull. I'd be SOOOOO tilted to lose to that. That said, I'm still not convinced one way or the other whether Hero should be banned, but something's gotta give here. So many things in his kit are downright stupidly overpowered.
The ban conversation hasn't really brought up certain very important points:

First, I don't think the RNG should be viewed in isolation to itself. Most of Hero's Command spells allow hit really, really hard or insta-kill, aka. kill really early. The crits and more importantly the other specials / aerials also do that since they also hit really, really hard. That convinced me of one thing: Sakurai and Sora Ltd. intentionally made Hero into half-magic, half-swordie heavy hitter. The RNG serves that. I understand the pro-ban side's point there, just think it should have been worded with his normal moves in mind.

Secondly - as a result of being a massive heavyhitter the Hero's ridicolously vurnerable to counters and reflects. Half the cast has a counter or reflect - Palutena's does both. Snooze, Whack and Thwack can be reflected too. Also, the only defense he has to reflects is avoiding the projectile or rolling Bounce. Sure Bounce comes up semi often, but it has a distinct audio clue telling the opponent with a reflect "Oh hey, I should just do something else, like mindgaming Hero!" There are also a few characters that can just ignore Bounce:

:ultvillager:/:ultisabelle: / :ultgnw:: Pocket and Oil Panic can wait out Bounce.
:ultness:/:ultlucas:: Can just heal off of the projectiles.
:ultincineroar:: Can Revenge most projectiles (Not Kafrizz, since it's multi-hit. Haven't been able to work out if he can Revenge Whack / Thwack, but if he can, hoo boy.)
:ultjoker:: Can get Arsene super early off Hero's attacks. Including Kafrizz.

Counters? Well, most counters work off of both sword hits and projectiles. Note that while the Zap spells can't be reflected, they can be countered. Unlike Incineroar's example most counters work off of Kafrizz, and the crits can be countered too.

What I'm trying to say? Hero's balance is a bit too tilted towards Hero out-reading his opponent or vice versa. His heavyhitters and RNG all promote such a playstyle. But in return, while most counters are slow they can prove devastating to Hero. So Hero has to play things methodical and out-read his opponents a lot. Still, even if a character lacks a counter they can be dangerous to Hero - Pikachu and Pichu are really dangerous since a good one can get into Hero's face fast.

For the record, I'm anti-ban since I don't believe Hero's strengths and weaknesses to be so pronounced that his playstyle / counters are onedimensional. Hero can use his tilts and aerials to play semi-agressively too without relying too much on his heavyhitters / RNG. He has several weaknesses too - combos, reflects / counters and bad frame data on the normals. Still, I do believe that Hero's balance is problematic and worth talking about.
 

Slime Master

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I'm not sure exactly what the pro-ban argument is (I know it's "to much RNG" but I don't know what undesirable effect they believe RNG has on competition), but one thing I don't see brought up often enough is that using an RNG element more often leads to greater consistency on average, not less. So if Hero is spamming menu a lot you can expect roughly the same number of kills per set from good menu rolls, whereas if G&W is only swinging judge 3 or 4 times per game, any successful 9 is less likely to happen and thus offsets the outcome of the match more not less.
 
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honestly at this point i just think pro players don't like that hero's main gimmick is "RNG" and gives them little to no control over how the match plays out

i don't have much of an issue with it myself but i can see why they would
 

Slime Master

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I wonder if any mainers use the plain shield attack for any regular projectile-negating tactics.
I haven't done a great job integrating it into my play, but I think there's a lot of potential there, especially since he's otherwise kind of weak to projectiles (unless they let you farm for bounce)
 

Megadoomer

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What do you think of the hero's ban on an Australian tournament?
I feel like it's overreacting. Then again, I feel like the competitive side of Smash overreacts in general when it comes to anything with the slightest hint of randomness. Hero's Menu special seems about as likely to backfire on the player as much as it helps them - if the critical hit rate and the rate that Whack/Thwack instantly kill are toned down in future patches, then I can't think of any glaring issues.
 

IsmaR

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I said it on another thread but at Shine 2019, during a very pivotal point in Grand Finals (probably when it mattered most as the momentum completely shifted afterwards), a player pulled a Bob-omb/won the match as Peach, and the crowd erupted in cheering/went as far as chanting "RNG!"

While I get it's a different case as Peach isn't built around as much RNG, it still goes to show **** happens and the crowd/players accept the outcome regardless.

Given time I would think people will settle down over the most egregious examples. That plus regions like Japan haven't even considered banning as a possibility.
 
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I said it on another thread but at Shine 2019, during a very pivotal point in Grand Finals (probably when it mattered most as the momentum completely shifted afterwards), a player pulled a Bob-omb/won the match as Peach, and the crowd erupted in cheering/went as far as chanting "RNG!"

While I get it's a different case as Peach isn't built around as much RNG, it still goes to show **** happens and the crowd/players accept the outcome regardless.

Given time I would think people will settle down over the most egregious examples. That plus regions like Japan haven't even considered banning as a possibility.
This makes me think that a lot of the people that want Hero banned have a big double standard. They're cheering on Samsora for that Bob-Omb win one second and storming Hero like the Bastille the next.
 

Munchi

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What do you think of the argument to ban the hero from the language barrier? Which is basically that two players with different languages cannot understand the hero's menu
 

Slime Master

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What do you think of the argument to ban the hero from the language barrier? Which is basically that two players with different languages cannot understand the hero's menu
I've heard it proposed that that hasn't been seriously suggested by people who actually travel to other countries for tournaments, since learning to read the spell names is the least of your worries in that case. But I wouldn't know so...
 

Munchi

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I feel like it's overreacting. Then again, I feel like the competitive side of Smash overreacts in general when it comes to anything with the slightest hint of randomness. Hero's Menu special seems about as likely to backfire on the player as much as it helps them - if the critical hit rate and the rate that Whack/Thwack instantly kill are toned down in future patches, then I can't think of any glaring issues.
How much do you think should be lowered to the odds of going critical and that Whack / Thwack kill
 

Megadoomer

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I beat the Dragon Quest 11 demo - it took me eight hours, which is more time than I've put into some full games! (It took me eight or nine hours to 100% complete Banjo-Kazooie) For a free demo, that's crazy.

I'm definitely looking forward to the game now, and it helps that my progress carries over.
How much do you think should be lowered to the odds of going critical and that Whack / Thwack kill
I have no idea what the current odds are; I just figure that Whack and Thwack shouldn't be able to KO someone from 0% as soon as the match starts, like what I've seen in some clips.
 
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Hmm.

I wonder what this means. Eleven was always going to be who Sakurai asked for first, while Square Enix decided to suggest that he use the other 3 heroes.

It's now murkier to determine which party (Square Enix or Sakurai) opted not to include the gender swaps for Arusu / Erdrick and Solo. I thought it was a corporate limitation from Square Enix, but now it seems possible that Sakurai himself may not have deemed the female alts a high priority, which would be a huge bummer. I thought Sakurai would think ahead and include them if given a chance and now that's thrown into doubt.

Edit: my apologies if me bringing this up is annoying some of you, but this thread is pretty slow-going and it's still an issue I care about.
 
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Hmm.

I wonder what this means. Eleven was always going to be who Sakurai asked for first, while Square Enix decided to suggest that he use the other 3 heroes.

It's now murkier to determine which party (Square Enix or Sakurai) opted not to include the gender swaps for Arusu / Erdrick and Solo. I thought it was a corporate limitation from Square Enix, but now it seems possible that Sakurai himself may not have deemed the female alts a high priority, which would be a huge bummer.
I understand you guys’ desire for female alts, but honestly, having a female alt for each playable Hero seems a bit like a stretch. If they had to do it for all of them, they’d have to have Toriyama design two gender-bent versions of Eight and Eleven to go with the female Arusu and Solo that we already have. Sure, no Female Arusu or Solo is a bit of a downer to you guys, but ultimately Sakurai and Square-Enix made the decisions of who gets added to what.

If Hero comes back next Smash, here’s hoping though, right?
 
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helloiamhere

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Here's the full transcript:
We were fortunate enough to be approached by Mr. Sakurai, and he was really excited about this idea of doing something to get a Dragon Quest character into Smash Bros.

As you may know, the character of the Hero in Smash Bros. Ultimate can use a lot of spells and specific moves from Dragon Quest. And it's not that we want to make sure that these got all in there, but Mr. Sakurai himself pulled out these specific spells and different Dragon Quest abilities he wanted to make sure got into the game, and we just kind of looked them over.

One thing that we did contribute was the idea of the character, you know, who would be the best character to put in the game, and we thought, well, we're dealing with Dragon Quest XI now, so let's make the character of Hero from Dragon Quest XI. Then we also had the idea that Smash Bros. has this feature to change your color variations based on what style you want, and we thought it might be cool to include the Heroes from past Dragon Quest titles as some of those options, so you can have four people playing -- you know, player 1 is maybe the Hero from Dragon Quest XI, and then you also have player 2 playing as the Hero from Dragon Quest III, player 3 can be playing from Dragon Quest IV, and then we wanted to include the Hero from Dragon Quest VIII as well because that game's popular overseas.

I used a Kamikazee in making this sort of proclamation about what I thought would be a good idea in adding these character switching options. I may have caused a bit of trouble for the developers with that, but... (laughs)
Bolded the important part. Squeenix were the ones that picked the Heros
 
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I understand you guys’ desire for female alts, but honestly, having a female alt for each playable Hero seems a bit like a stretch.
I did not say this.

Please don't twist my words regarding the issue. It happens too much from people challenging my want for Sofia and female Arusu / Erdrick. I never brought up the possibility of female Eight and Eleven.

As for the possibility of them getting included in the "next" Smash, we don't know if The Hero will even return, much less a bunch of veterans who were previously cut like Pichu and Young Link. If The Hero does return, maybe the female heroes will get in, but there's no guarantee even if they did.

Smash Ultimate is the best time for anyone to join the battle, because Everyone is Here. Like, imagine Sofia finally joining somehow through expanded color options or something, but Cloud was cut, so they can't fight. The next Smash is not something I want to think about because it was a miracle that everyone was brought back in the first place, and cuts will inevitably happen. So I'm still sad the inclusion of the women seemingly wasn't a matter of course after all.

Here's the full transcript:


Bolded the important part. Squeenix were the ones that picked the Heros
However, it seems I may have been wrong in saying it may not have been Square Enix's decision, as it seems they were the ones who chose the alts after all.
 
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For Dragon Quest 2, I can name all three of the heroes, right?

Follow up question, what Dragon Quest games doesn't allow me to name my party members?
 

Slime Master

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Can you name your party members in 4, 5, 6, and 7? Since there's no voice acting, it would make sense.
I'm pretty sure 6 & 7 had renaming. It's usually associated with the class system which those games have. I don't use that feature much so I don't tend to notice when it's gone. I think 5 might have something at least for monsters?
Edit: oh, and you can name your children in 5
 
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