Hero ban

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

So, as many of you know, Hero was banned in South Australia about 2 days ago, and all of Australia as of yesterday. They say this is the case because RNG permeates every part of the Hero's design, and that it fosters an anti-competitive environment. They also claim that playing hero de-emphasizes player skill when determining the victor.
Full twitlonger: https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqvsvl
Some criticisms of these include the fact that these RNG mechanics have not had enough time to find a possible counter, especially because Hero only released about a month ago. For comparison, Brawl Meta Knight did not have people clamoring for a ban until several years after Brawl's release.
I think personally, something worth considering is a combination of MSC's videos on Banning and RNG as a whole. What strikes me as odd is that many of Hero's mechanics fall under react-able RNG, since the opposing player is able to read the down-special menu before Hero selects it.
Link for RNG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji59AoIRc8M
Link for Banning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQRo2PrkyJ0
Additionally, some of Hero's more toxic traits, such as the Magic Burst edgeguard, has hypothetical counterplay with specific characters. For instance, ROB might be able to stall the magic burst out with well-timed down-airs and up-specials.
In my opinion, the RNG that Hero gets can elevate him to high tier or lower him to mid-tier, but this remains to be seen in actual tournament play, since no top player has really decided to properly main Hero yet.
So, what do you guys think? Is hero just too random to be competitive? Should we wait to ban him, ban him instantly, or do nothing at all?

 

[Predatoria]

I feel really sad about it.

I personally think it is quite awful. All I can think about with this situation is all the people who were so excited by Hero's announcement that he'd be in Smash Ultimate, and all the people who were so hyped when they saw his reveal trailer. I'm thinking about everyone being so happy on the day patch 4.0 released.

I am also thinking about all the people at Nintendo that worked so hard on creating this character. Look at his costumes and animations and visuals and all the work that went into bringing him to life in Smash Ultimate.

And now all the people that were so happy about this character get to see him getting banned. I'm worried this is going to be a domino type effect, and we're going to be seeing more and more of this happening. Just imagine the gut-wrenching feeling you'd have if you had the character you always wanted to play finally get into Smash Ultimate, and then within weeks you got to see him start getting banned in various Smash scenes.

I think it's horrible, unwarranted, and do not think Hero's RNG (or the efficacy of the character in general) comes even close to being considerable for banning him.

 

[Xelrog]

I still think it's much too early. Not to be a toadie but I pretty much agree completely with ZeRo's video about him: if he's not winning all the tournaments, then who cares? The RNG hasn't proven oppressive yet. People just don't know how to adapt to it. Like, for example, not getting into his very small, very precise range when he's loading up one of his very limited OHKO attacks with text on the screen. Complaining about Hero's OHKO moves is like complaining about Warlock Punch. If you get hit, you deserved it.

I haven't personally played all that many Heroes and when I do I more or less just stay on him at all times so he doesn't have the chance to read a menu. The only thing I have to then bait out is his thunder.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

My philosophy is this:
Nerf them if they're overpowered
Ban them if they're overused.
But Hero is the esception to both these rules.

People talked about banning Hero for being broken because of his RNG and OHKO's but in reality he wasn't showing up in many competitive scenes at all. But I've mentioned before how stressful it can be to play against him. I'll refer to a previous post of mine:

Anyway, my new most hated character to fight against is obviously Hero. The randomness in his moveset and the OHKO's are enough, but it's the level of stress fighting against him that I really dislike. At any given moment my eyes have to flutter to a little menu in the bottom corner of the screen to read and react to any of the four options Hero gets, and some of them are ridiculous (guess). Sometimes it's almost impossible to react properly since Hero can use his magic abilities like snapping his fingers and the hitboxes are enormous (looking at you, magic burst). The level of stress I experience when playing against Hero is enough that I fully support the movements to ban him (He's already been banned in Southern Australia). Hero's moveset revolves too much around RNG and OHKO's that I simply can't endorse him being allowed in tournaments. I hate playing against him that much.

It's really annoying how at 30-40% I have to worry about being KO'd because Hero might choose one of four options that he gets just by pressing down and B. I'm not saying Hero is OP or dominant in any way, it's just too much to handle when dealing with an RNG based fighter.

The counter argument to Hero's RNG and critical hits is that "why wouldn't you ban too!" The difference is exactly what the Austrailian TOs brought up: Judge, Turnip, and Misfire all have to connect. Whereas with hero's Magic burst, kamikaze, or other moves with enormous hitboxes, it's much easier to hit someone. Not to mention zoom is by far one of the game's best recoveries, bounce is like having Shine except you can move with it, he can heal himself using very little MP, Accelerate is basically a combo of shield and jump monado, and don't get me started on hocus pocus. We're talking about a character with the biggest toolkit of different moves with big hitboxes and incredible power that rely on RNG. Hero is the testament to casual Smash: you might as well be playing with items on since Hero has several item-based moves. I see no reason why I shouldn't be banned.

 

[Arthur97]

I think you're overselling it a little. It's not like they're removing them from the game. Most people would be unaffected if they were universally banned. And, hey, if they care so much about them being used competitively, maybe they shouldn't have made an RNG fighter. I don't necessarily agree with this decision, but let's not make it a sob story.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

I'm not a competitive player, but if Brawl Meta Knight and Smash 4 Bayonetta can get a pass, then Hero at least deserves a trial run before people slap down the ban hammer.

 

[Arthur97]

Uh, remember that Brawl Meta Knight did get banned. It took a while, but he did not get a pass. One problem with bans though is that you're almost never going to get everyone to agree. You might could pull if off if you got both the US and Japan to agree, but odds are Japan isn't going for a ban. Especially not given how in love with DQ Japan apparently is.

 

[EGsmash]

I think it's the right call and as stated by the T.O. done for exactly the right reasons. It comes down to his moveset being anti-competitive. Yes, other characters have RNG, but nothing as drastic as Hero's. Also as correctly Zero pointed out in his video today (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cXQ1d2HJ44 ) Hero's menu presents a unique and major language barrier for international players who may not be able to read their opponents' menu options and therefore cannot properly react. Or what happens when you eventually have a Hero ditto matchup with players who read different languages? Who gets to decide what language the system uses? Who will have the unfair disadvantage?

While it was stated that being "too powerful" was not the reason for the ban, and while I agree that the community needs time to develop counter-strategies to new characters, it's also a fact that Hero is ridiculously overpowered with relatively few weaknesses, and those weaknesses (mostly end-lag on attacks) can easily be compensated by a skilled player. Even his RNG can be cheesed to produce favorable results with very few drawbacks.

Though also not the reason for the ban, I feel Hero is generally a very poorly designed character - I mean that in the sense that the devs put far too much into the character without editing down to a more sensible moveset; it's the equivalent of your daughter playing dress-up for the first time and layering on every single piece of jewelry, makeup, and accessory she can find without having the sense to remove parts that just don't work. I get that the devs wanted to represent an entire franchise, but that's just the thing - they tried to represent the ENTIRE franchise instead of focusing on a main character. The result is just a mess which is sad because you know the devs put a lot of love into the character and many people were very excited to see their favorite character included in Smash only to have him banned for what amounts to poorly thought out design.

Don't get me wrong - Hero is a fun and interesting character to play, but as stated by others his ban is essentially for the same reason items and stage hazards are not included in tournament play; there's way too much unpredictability (not to mention the ease with which a player can get desirable attacks) for competitive play. I see the ban not as a judgement on the character, rather wake-up call to the devs that they need to act to make the character viable in a game which they themselves styled as a competition-grade product or else their game will have to suffer the blemish of having characters inaccessible to tournament play.

Not that I want to sit here complaining for nothing, so here's what I think could make Hero a much more 'fair and balanced' character without drastically altering who he is right now:

• Increase the delay before being able to pull up the Down-B menu again after closing it. This will cut down on the ability to cheese the RNG to get the spell you want.
• Magic Burst and Kamikazee have greatly reduced knockback and damage the further away you get from the epicenter.
• Remove critical hits completely - This mechanic is the worst source of RNG and offers significant rewards for no additional effort. While this mechanic is unique to Hero in Smash, it is not unique to other characters' games, making it a pointlessly unfair advantage. Removing critical hits would not change how Hero plays in the slightest, which is how you know it needs to be removed.
• Alternately, make critical hits a universal gameplay mechanic. However I don't think anyone seriously wants that.
• Alternately (again) make an equal chance of 'critical fail' on Hero's smash attacks (self-damage, or 1%).
• Snooze only puts grounded opponents to sleep, to be consistent with other sleep effects. Alternately, make Jigglypuff's Sing put airborne opponents to sleep. (lol, can you imagine?)
• Thwack and Whack only have a chance to kill above 100%
• Add symbols to Down-B menu items to eliminate language barrier and decrease spell recognition time (This needs to happen regardless of any other changes)

 

[Crystanium]

Uh, remember that Brawl Meta Knight did get banned. It took a while, but he did not get a pass. One problem with bans though is that you're almost never going to get everyone to agree. You might could pull if off if you got both the US and Japan to agree, but odds are Japan isn't going for a ban. Especially not given how in love with DQ Japan apparently is.

The ban never remained for MK, since so many people played as him. Some probably think viewership would have been the reason for the ban not remaining, but Tyrant explained this to someone about two weeks ago on Twitter. The Smash community apparently isn't democratic. I feel Hero is low tier, and apparently the last time I was on Twitter, I pissed some people off for saying that. Some thought I was saying he was right there with Piranha Plant and Little Mac, but being low tier isn't the same as bottom tier.

After deliberation and plenty of discussion we have concluded that Hero’s design as a character is fundamentally dependant on randomness to the point that it is not reasonable in a competitive environment.

I'm curious as to what makes Hero "fundamentally dependant [sic] on randomness to the point that it is not reasonable in a competitive environment." There are two random options for Hero, and these are his f-smash and Command Selection. I find that hardly worth being considered "fundamentally dependant [sic] on randomness".

RNG permeates every element of Hero's design, from spell selection to random critical hits and hocus pocus effects.

"Every element", huh? I bet that's an exaggeration because you only listed two, and the latter is 6:3:2 (Negative, positive, and neutral, respectively), meaning he's more likely to punish himself than he is to receive a favorable option. Now, if I'm doing this properly, he has a 54.5% chance of receiving a negative outcome.

While randomness has to varying degrees always been present in competitive games and other Smash games, Hero is so dependent on randomness that it cannot be 'played around' or accounted for in competitive play. The argument is similar to the reason why items are banned in competitive play.

He's not dependent on randomness. If played optimally, Hero will utilize a variety of options at his disposal and avoid running out of his MP by using just about everything in Command Selection. I've played two types of Hero players: 1. Those who use MP optimally and 2. those who expend MP so that they're left vulnerable. Optimally played, Hero will make good use of neutral special, side special, and select abilities from Command Selection that are reliable, such as Psyche Up, Oomph, Acceleratle, Bounce, or some of his other projectiles that won't put him at risk of running short on MP. Use of n-air, u-air, and f-air. Since Hocus Pocus was mentioned earlier, only someone who is desperate would bother trying that, and that runs the risk of likely losing, rather than winning anyway.

Bringing up items as a comparison to Hero is laughable. First, characters like Peach/Daisy and Diddy Kong use items, even if it's part of their moveset. While Peach/Daisy pulling a Bom-Omb, Mr. Saturn, or whatever is improbable, Diddy Kong is still using Banana Peel, whether you agree with it being an item or not. It's the same animation and has the same function. Items have a greater variety of randomness than Hero. Hero is a character, not a random item. And the assertion that Hero's randomness cannot be "played around" is demonstrably false, as demonstrated by just about everyone who has ever fought and defeated Hero.

Additionally, even other random effects in the game, such as G&W's Hammer or Peach's turnips, still require the player to connect with the move. Although it is not a central issue, many of Hero's random tools, such as magic burst edgeguards, unblockable kamikazees or psych up critical shield breaks are frequently unavoidable and decide whole stocks. Random kill power and mobility buffs as well as free Zoom recoveries have no counterplay and can significantly effect the outcome of a match.

I'm glad you mentioned that "connect[ing] with the move" is not a "central issue", since that's irrelevant and indefensible anyway. Magic Burst relies on the amount of MP and reduces to 1 MP. Hero can be knocked out of the attack so that Magic Burst doesn't succeed in what it was intended to do and still punishes Hero by reducing his MP to 1. Relying on Magic Burst is foolish. Kamikazee (sic) is only useful if you have a stock lead, but it would be foolish to use it if your damage isn't high enough to lose the stock from a throw or strong attack. Psyche Up with a critical shield break can be dealt with by dodging or rolling. Seriously, this TwitLonger reeks of a lack of imagination and hypothetical scenarios to deal with these options. Zoom does have a counter-play. The last I checked, it was countered by Snake's u-tilt.

We want to emphasise that this ban is not because hero is too strong, but because he is anti-competitive. We believe that tournaments are meant to provide an opportunity for players to demonstrate their skill and that, as a general rule, the player who plays more skilfully should emerge victorious. Hero's design has a very strong potential to de-emphasise player skill which isn’t fair for those who work hard to improve their abilities for competition.

"Anti-competitive"? So far you've failed to demonstrate that and even define what "anti-competitive" means. Like I said before, which would you worry more about? A revolver with six chambers filled, or a revolver with only one chamber filled? Hero is the revolver with only one chamber filled.

 

[Necro'lic]

People talked about banning Hero for being broken because of his RNG and OHKO's but in reality he wasn't showing up in many competitive scenes at all. But I've mentioned before how stressful it can be to play against him.

Are we basing banning characters on how stressful they are to play against now? I hope not, because that could lead to people banning higher tier characters solely for being stressful to play against because they are too good at "everything". Hero is not good at everything, and yet he's stressful to play against. I can say the same thing about fighters that require some zone control to beat like the Belmonts or Samus, or simply fast pressure characters like Wolf, Pichu, and Joker.

The counter argument to Hero's RNG and critical hits is that "why wouldn't you ban too!" The difference is exactly what the Austrailian TOs brought up: Judge, Turnip, and Misfire all have to connect. Whereas with hero's Magic burst, kamikaze, or other moves with enormous hitboxes, it's much easier to hit someone. Not to mention zoom is by far one of the game's best recoveries, bounce is like having Shine except you can move with it, he can heal himself using very little MP, Accelerate is basically a combo of shield and jump monado, and don't get me started on hocus pocus. We're talking about a character with the biggest toolkit of different moves with big hitboxes and incredible power that rely on RNG. Hero is the testament to casual Smash: you might as well be playing with items on since Hero has several item-based moves. I see no reason why I shouldn't be banned.

While I definitely agree with the higher radius moves like Karackle Slash (is that how it's spelled?), Magic Burst, and Kamikazee being overtuned, what you just listed off was simply moves that are pretty good, but can't all be used all at once freely due to the limitation of the Down-B. This feels intended and as you have pointed out multiple times, still not OP. But I guess you make an exception to ban a character you yourself have admitted as not being OP because... he can randomly get a situationally good tool to use sometimes (or in the case of Hocus Pocus specifically, get a detrimental tool).

 

[Crystanium]

Get ready for a self-fulfilling prophecy, ladies and gentlemen. Imagine if one day SASmash Central decides to remove the ban for Hero, only for Hero to take the scene, not because he's a good character, but because no one in South Australia knows how to deal with him. Then SASmash Central says, "See, it was a good idea to ban Hero early on! Now we have evidence that supports what we've been saying all along!"

 

[Necro'lic]

Get ready for a self-fulfilling prophecy, ladies and gentlemen. Imagine if one day SASmash Central decides to remove the ban for Hero, only for Hero to take the scene, not because he's a good character, but because no one in South Australia knows how to deal with him. Then SASmash Central says, "See, it was a good idea to ban Hero early on! Now we have evidence that supports what we've been saying all along!"

Oh boy that would be something...

You know, if anyone would bother unbanning something they will always see as "anti-competitive" whatever the hell that even means. They won't. Hero will end up only a solid mid-high tier character, and no one will care because RNG is literally the devil of competitive gaming as we know it.

Guess Dota is a hyper casual game then, considering its high amount of RNG in many different places and heroes and items.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I feel like everything leading up until now in Smash Bros history has been leading up to Hero being a super divisive character.

First there was competitive Melee, which as we all know started the competitive / casual divide.

Then Brawl with all sorts of changes that made it less entertaining as a competitive game. While random tripping wasn't the only issue or arguably even the main issue, it became symbolic of competitive player's distaste for the game. And of course as we all know, this is when the casual / competitive divide got the nastiest.

Smash 4 comes along and introduces For Fun and For Glory online modes. That game kind of came and gone, but when Ultimate removed that system items (and randomness along with them) then became a symbol of getting "cheesed" out of heard-earned GSP.

Smash 4 DLC came next along with Bayonetta and Cloud which, while unrelated to the topic of RNG, they still left the community rattled. The scars of the Bayo controversy are fresh in people's mind and many are still terrified of another DLC character coming and "ruining" Ultimate. I do remember a lot of fear mongering the day before Joker released as well, but now that Hero has come along with a little bit of crazy RNG moves in his kit people finally feel that their fears are justified.

Anyway, I get the impression a lot of modern competitive players and wi-fi warriors never even bothered to willingly try Smash Bros with items on, which is a gosh darn shame because there's a lot more depth and strategy to item play then people give it credit for, and adapting to rapidly changing conditions can be exciting and fun. Of course I'd wholeheartedly agree that it's for the better that items are banned from competitive play, but I also think that Hero can be a fun little taste of what items bring to the table without going completely overboard. A bit of randomness to spice things up but not enough to kill significantly hurt the competitive aspect.

 

[Necro'lic]

Anyway, I get the impression a lot of modern competitive players and wi-fi warriors never even bothered to willingly try Smash Bros with items on, which is a gosh darn shame because there's a lot more depth and strategy to item play then people give it credit for, and adapting to rapidly changing conditions can be exciting and fun. Of course I'd wholeheartedly agree that it's for the better that items are banned from competitive play, but I also think that Hero can be a fun little taste of what items bring to the table without going completely overboard. A bit of randomness to spice things up but not enough to kill significantly hurt the competitive aspect.

Definitely agree on the randomness aspect being there for more split second decision making. Yet people still call it "anti-competitive", as if randomness existing is by itself detrimental to competitive play.

And yet again, Dota exists as one of the biggest competitive video games of all time. Honestly that alone is enough to make their point moot.

btw, love your Claude pic. He's the best.

 

[Coolboy]

i am not even competitive with the game but if improving and trying to get better falls under that then maybe i kinda am? idk xD

but to the point..i think they made a good decision with banning Hero, Sakurai and co needs to see how unfair hero's moveset is and why it needs to be nerfed/fixed!

i literally took a break from the game because i am done having to fight a cheesy unfair hero every damn match..
if you have matches without items, Hero players will still kinda have items and lets not forget how early Hero can take a stock from you with just his specials..no combo needed to kill early so even a noob just have to spam the specials
i am not even going to tournaments and even i despise fighting Hero players online, i both won and lose but i still hate his specials..i really do and i really want them nerfed.

 

[Necro'lic]

i am not even competitive with the game but if improving and trying to get better falls under that then maybe i kinda am? idk xD

but to the point..i think they made a good decision with banning Hero, Sakurai and co needs to see how unfair hero's moveset is and why it needs to be nerfed/fixed!

i literally took a break from the game because i am done having to fight a cheesy unfair hero every damn match..
if you have matches without items, Hero players will still kinda have items and lets not forget how early Hero can take a stock from you with just his specials..no combo needed to kill early so even a noob just have to spam the specials
i am not even going to tournaments and even i despise fighting Hero players online, i both won and lose but i still hate his specials..i really do and i really want them nerfed.

Considering you say you play online, you aren't affected by this ban at all really. I'm pretty sure if Hero is actually too strong online, the devs will notice that and nerf accordingly anyway. Meanwhile, pro players can actually start the process of getting used to Hero in a competitive environment.

 

[EGsmash]

RNG aside, I think the fact that Hero can kill so easily and so early compared to other characters warrants a bit of an overhaul. Sure, most characters have one or two setups that can kill early or even 0-death, but they're highly situational and require practice. Hero's entire moveset is designed for early kills, and can be performed with relatively little effort.

 

[Xelrog]

RNG aside, I think the fact that Hero can kill so easily and so early compared to other characters warrants a bit of an overhaul. Sure, most characters have one or two setups that can kill early or even 0-death, but they're highly situational and require practice. Hero's entire moveset is designed for early kills, and can be performed with relatively little effort.

You mean to say he's a hard hitting character, like every heavy?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

You mean to say he's a hard hitting character, like every heavy?

I don't remember the last heavy to have a projectile that kills at mid level percents at the ledge.

Or you know, random critical Smash attacks that can kill at the same percents from significantly farther away.

My issue with Hero is less about his ridiculously strong moves and just his RNG in general. Although his OHKOs/kill you stupid early moves are also pretty annoying.

 

[Necro'lic]

I don't remember the last heavy to have a projectile that kills at mid level percents at the ledge.

Or you know, random critical Smash attacks that can kill at the same percents from significantly farther away.

My issue with Hero is less about his ridiculously strong moves and just his RNG in general. Although his OHKOs/kill you stupid early moves are also pretty annoying.

Considering your two examples, I'm really not sure why the strength of the moves themselves would be lower on the list of concern than simple randomness.

 

[Xelrog]

I don't remember the last heavy to have a projectile that kills at mid level percents at the ledge.

Or you know, random critical Smash attacks that can kill at the same percents from significantly farther away.

My issue with Hero is less about his ridiculously strong moves and just his RNG in general. Although his OHKOs/kill you stupid early moves are also pretty annoying.

I get the RNG complaints. I don't really get complaints that he's too strong. If you don't have a problem not getting hit by Ganondorf's big attacks, you should have no problem not getting hit by Hero's.

 

[ZephyrZ]

RNG aside, I think the fact that Hero can kill so easily and so early compared to other characters warrants a bit of an overhaul. Sure, most characters have one or two setups that can kill early or even 0-death, but they're highly situational and require practice. Hero's entire moveset is designed for early kills, and can be performed with relatively little effort.

Hero's early kills are also really situational and the RNG elemant is one of the aspects keeping it that way.

His F-smash isn't exactly what I'd call a "fast and safe" move. If your gameplan with Hero is to just hope to get a lucky kill you probably won't make it far with him.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Considering your two examples, I'm really not sure why the strength of the moves themselves would be lower on the list of concern than simple randomness.

I get the RNG complaints. I don't really get complaints that he's too strong. If you don't have a problem not getting hit by Ganondorf's big attacks, you should have no problem not getting hit by Hero's.

Because neither Ganondorf nor any strong move of those sorts (save Judge & Misfire, but those were previously mentioned) is RNG oriented. RNG isn't something that can be played around, as the Australian TO's mentioned. When fighting Ganondorf, you know that every hit could mean a lot of damage or a stock, so you play around, space, zone him, etc. Hero? When he presses down B, it could be anything. It could be a reflector that negates your projectiles or a long range projectile (sizz/bang/kaboom/etc.) that kills you at 80. That's the big difference. You don't know what to expect, making it almost no different than playing with items on.

 

[Xelrog]

Because neither Ganondorf nor any strong move of those sorts (save Judge & Misfire, but those were previously mentioned) is RNG oriented. RNG isn't something that can be played around, as the Australian TO's mentioned. When fighting Ganondorf, you know that every hit could mean a lot of damage or a stock, so you play around, space, zone him, etc. Hero? When he presses down B, it could be anything. It could be a reflector that negates your projectiles or a long range projectile (sizz/bang/kaboom/etc.) that kills you at 80. That's the big difference. You don't know what to expect, making it almost no different than playing with items on.

But you were complaining about his smash attacks.

 

[Aemuli]

I still can't believe that people are comparing Hero to Brawl Meta Knight and Smash 4 Bayonetta. Those characters are on a different level of being broken; in fact with Meta Knight they had to ban using him on Delfino Plaza and Halberd just due to the prowess of the character on those stages. Furthermore, the argument of him being broken is totally irrelevant to reasons of him wanting to be banned. The main complaint is him being "luck based" not "skill based" and the obvious language barrier where people of different regions not being able to read the opponent's/their spell menu.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd prefer they somewhat nerf the hitboxes on his super strong RNG moves(like Kamikaze), and make the hit rate for Criticals far lower.

I don't have much of an opinion of his RNG or if it's too OP. I won't compare him to Bayo or Meta Knight. I don't have any experience with a high competitive Meta Knight, nor watched enough of Brawl. I know Bayonetta was insane, saw it too, and found her super easy to win with even in casual, but that's just some anecdotal evidence.

Now, on another note , something brought up the Language Barrier. However, this is actually easy to solve. You have two Switches, two games, two Monitors. The players play in their own language. Mind you, I don't know if you can connect two consoles that are on monitors without being online. I'm guessing it's offline lan play of sorts, but I can't confirm that. This is fairly easy to resolve, and seeing as how most tourneys have multiple monitors/games/Switches to begin with, it shouldn't even be a real hassle. The hardest part is a language change, and that's only slight tedious(as if I remember right, that needs to be done with the Switch, not the game itself), but reasonable overall. It's easy to sign up, with some clear details, and everybody is on an even playing level. We have tons of international players and this is a quick and easy fix to apply whenever needed. It likely won't even come up that much to begin with. But hey, easy preparation.

 

[Xelrog]

Now, on another note , something brought up the Language Barrier. However, this is actually easy to solve. You have two Switches, two games, two Monitors. The players play in their own language. Mind you, I don't know if you can connect two consoles that are on monitors without being online. I'm guessing it's offline lan play of sorts, but I can't confirm that. This is fairly easy to resolve, and seeing as how most tourneys have multiple monitors/games/Switches to begin with, it shouldn't even be a real hassle. The hardest part is a language change, and that's only slight tedious(as if I remember right, that needs to be done with the Switch, not the game itself), but reasonable overall. It's easy to sign up, with some clear details, and everybody is on an even playing level. We have tons of international players and this is a quick and easy fix to apply whenever needed. It likely won't even come up that much to begin with. But hey, easy preparation.

Is there a LAN mode in Ultimate? I don't know that I've ever checked.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Is there a LAN mode in Ultimate? I don't know that I've ever checked.

Good question. I honestly never had a chance to try. Cause it'd suck if you had to connect online, which requires the TO to have two online Switches, which is clearly not a viable way to run tourneys.

 

[TennisBall]

Hero should be banned, but not because of any attacks, but something that needs to be fixed. No not even the random crits, although those are pretty dumb.
It's the language barrier.
On his Down-B, Hero has four spells, but obviously, you have to read them in order in be able to use them effectively, and by default, read them in order to counter them, and this is where things fall apart.
Let's say you're at EVO and you're Japanese and you face a Hero, the language is in English and you don't know English, what are you supposed to do against the spells?
It's really sad, andI don't want him to be banned, but with this in mind, I don't see another option .

 

[Necro'lic]

RNG isn't something that can be played around,

Okay, this is just flat out wrong. Playing around RNG requires split second decision making rather than careful planning for the future. It's simply another kind of playing around, something that fighting game players should be used to, because we do both strategic planning as well as split second decisions as is. It's not rocket science to understand how RNG works in a competitive game.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Okay, this is just flat out wrong. Playing around RNG requires split second decision making rather than careful planning for the future. It's simply another kind of playing around, something that fighting game players should be used to, because we do both strategic planning as well as split second decisions as is. It's not rocket science to understand how RNG works in a competitive game.

Unless we're thinking of different fighters, playing around Hero means reading and properly reacting to every one of his 4 menu options before he has the chance to use any one of them. That sounds a bit different than split-second decision making. The only way to safely avoid Hero's RNG moves is to camp or space from as far away as possible and attack only when there's no chance of getting followed up by something cheesy. It's extremely unfun for both players.

If you can't predict what an RNG move is going to be there's no proper way to play around it other than running away to avoid getting hit by the worst case scenario moves--in this case, something like Thwack or Magic Burst. If you don't actively avoid Hero you could be hit by any sort of ridiculously strong attack. The difference between these and strong attacks that Hero has is that heavies usually have slow, easily telegraphed attacks that aren't RNG based, aren't fast moving projectiles, and require either a hard read or a complex setup (like Dedede's CUP gordo ledge trap). Hero on the other hand can pull any one of several fast killing moves that end stocks at crazy low percents.

 

[TennisBall]

Okay, this is just flat out wrong. Playing around RNG requires split second decision making rather than careful planning for the future. It's simply another kind of playing around, something that fighting game players should be used to, because we do both strategic planning as well as split second decisions as is. It's not rocket science to understand how RNG works in a competitive game.

But what if they can't play around it because they can't understand the language it's in. This really presents a problem for multi-national tournaments.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Unless we're thinking of different fighters, playing around Hero means reading and properly reacting to every one of his 4 menu options before he has the chance to use any one of them. That sounds a bit different than split-second decision making. The only way to safely avoid Hero's RNG moves is to camp or space from as far away as possible and attack only when there's no chance of getting followed up by something cheesy. It's extremely unfun for both players.

If you can't predict what an RNG move is going to be there's no proper way to play around it other than running away to avoid getting hit by the worst case scenario moves--in this case, something like Thwack or Magic Burst. If you don't actively avoid Hero you could be hit by any sort of ridiculously strong attack. The difference between these and strong attacks that Hero has is that heavies usually have slow, easily telegraphed attacks that aren't RNG based, aren't fast moving projectiles, and require either a hard read or a complex setup (like Dedede's CUP gordo ledge trap). Hero on the other hand can pull any one of several fast killing moves that end stocks at crazy low percents.

Thwack and Magic Burst both take longer then 20 frames to come out after selecting them on the menu. That's about as slow as Bowser's or Charizard's F-smashes, and that's before factoring in the time it takes to open up the menu and select them. Rushing Hero down is actually effective if you're smart about it because he won't have time to set up any of his crazier moves if you're good at staying in his face.

Regardless a character being "unfun" is extremely subjective and isn't enough to ban them anyway. Some people think that Hero is one of the funnest characters in the game.

 

[JiggyNinja]

I'd prefer they somewhat nerf the hitboxes on his super strong RNG moves(like Kamikaze), and make the hit rate for Criticals far lower.

Instead of making them less frequent, they need to make them weaker or just remove them altogether. There's no reason Hero should get critical hits when every other RPG character makes do without them.

Thwack and Magic Burst both take longer then 20 frames to come out after selecting them on the menu. That's about as slow as Bowser's or Charizard's F-smashes, and that's before factoring in the time it takes to open up the menu and select them.

And what Thwack and Magic Burst have that the F-smashes lack is a stupidly huge hitbox. Rushdown is a bit more difficult when your opponent outranges you by that much.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

And what Thwack and Magic Burst have that the F-smashes lack is a stupidly huge hitbox. Rushdown is a bit more difficult when your opponent outranges you by that much.

Not to mention Ganon's f-smash won't kill at zero or even low/mid level percents depending on weight and placement. Whereas against Hero you can be at mid level percents and have a 40-50% chance (Yes, whack and thwack are RNG oriented) of being OHKO'd right there.

 

[Necro'lic]

But what if they can't play around it because they can't understand the language it's in. This really presents a problem for multi-national tournaments.

Like I have said before, this is the only legit issue I've seen involving Hero.

Unless we're thinking of different fighters, playing around Hero means reading and properly reacting to every one of his 4 menu options before he has the chance to use any one of them. That sounds a bit different than split-second decision making. The only way to safely avoid Hero's RNG moves is to camp or space from as far away as possible and attack only when there's no chance of getting followed up by something cheesy. It's extremely unfun for both players.

If you can't predict what an RNG move is going to be there's no proper way to play around it other than running away to avoid getting hit by the worst case scenario moves--in this case, something like Thwack or Magic Burst. If you don't actively avoid Hero you could be hit by any sort of ridiculously strong attack. The difference between these and strong attacks that Hero has is that heavies usually have slow, easily telegraphed attacks that aren't RNG based, aren't fast moving projectiles, and require either a hard read or a complex setup (like Dedede's CUP gordo ledge trap). Hero on the other hand can pull any one of several fast killing moves that end stocks at crazy low percents.

And once again, you are not actually complaining about the randomness of the menu, but the actual strength of the moves within the menu. It's so blatant that I honestly don't know why you are still talking about "randomness" when you should be talking about how strong certain moves are.

Dammit. Did a double post.

 

[KingDoop]

I think he should be banned because of the language barrier. It isn't fair for international players, to ask them to learn new languages to compete. That aside I've personally had a lot of fun playing both with and against Hero, so I have nothing against his playstyle.

 

[TennisBall]

I think he should be banned because of the language barrier. It isn't fair for international players, to ask them to learn new languages to compete. That aside I've personally had a lot of fun playing both with and against Hero, so I have nothing against his playstyle.

I really want Nintendo to fix the language barrier somehow, I just don't know how, I don't want him to be banned, reflecting Snooze is a blast.

 

[JiggyNinja]

I think he should be banned because of the language barrier. It isn't fair for international players, to ask them to learn new languages to compete. That aside I've personally had a lot of fun playing both with and against Hero, so I have nothing against his playstyle.

It's not like there's no precedent for this in other games. Pokemon TCG just preemptively banned Blaine's Quiz Show from the World's for this exact reason.

The effect:

“Put a Pokémon from your hand face down in front of you and tell your opponent the name of an attack it has. Your opponent guesses the name of that Pokémon, and then you reveal it. If your opponent guessed right, they draw 4 cards. If they guessed wrong, you draw 4 cards. Return the Pokemon to your hand.”

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Once again, having two Switches that can connect to each other while docked is literally all that's needed to fix the entire Language Barrier. Any larger tourney will have more than one console(at least on average). The fix isn't hard to deal with.

Though I once again ask from more seasoned Switch users; can you connect two consoles(that are on monitors) together offline, or do you need paid online? If it's paid online, I can understand some TO's deciding to stick with the Language-based ban.