Help Havok Learn Snake

[**Havok**]

So I decided to main snake (no snake dittos).

I need input from people and I'm willing to learn

Here are some of my notes I have for the character vs MK. Excuse the camera quality, its my phone!

Ok. As far as I have understood in the MK matchup (summary):

-Grenades create opportunities for MK to approach and covers all of snakes defensive options
-Grenades creates discomfort on the floor for MK
-Downthrow is extremely useful to create momentum
-nair and dair are situational
-Ftilt run approaches (uptilt works too)
-Grenade placement creates favorable positioning

Look at the notes for details

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=24608436#!/photo.php?pid=40069762&id=24608436

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...hp?pid=40069763&id=24608436&fbid=699116253507

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...hp?pid=40069764&id=24608436&fbid=699116338337

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...hp?pid=40069765&id=24608436&fbid=699116378257

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...hp?pid=40069767&id=24608436&fbid=699116488037

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...hp?pid=40069768&id=24608436&fbid=699116507997

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...hp?pid=40069770&id=24608436&fbid=699116667677

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...hp?pid=40069771&id=24608436&fbid=699116732547

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Videos:

Ok, this is where all of you can help me. I play marth and MK too, their style of play is based on their capacity to move very quickly. However, snake is completely different and I don't quite get it yet. If you look at my videos I start approaching at awkward times because I don't know what to do in specific situations. Any comments on his general movement is greatly appreciated!

Anyways, let me know how I can improve!

VS Willyo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN076MtXfhU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i3TqpXLd4Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtOFNgOpXqg&feature=related

VS DSF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENSYiScfpt8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhN-3IarD_A&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTBmRxNr738&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8BmZRb0VSA&feature=related

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Anything you can tell me is awesome! Did I need a pivot here? There?

Let me know!

 

[etecoon]

not signing up for facebook to see your notes but after watching the DSF vids

- I notice you use bair to momentum cancel, you can test this yourself but snake's best momentum cancel vs horizontal attacks is air dodge, FFuair vs vertical attacks(WTF? idk how but that's what my testing gave me). bair is a good compromise between the two if you're not sure which you need/you're sent at a weird angle where you could die from either direction

- usually if you grab around a grenade you use snake's side throws so that you can avoid the explosion yourself, sometimes it can be advantageous to dthrow especially if you have the port to not get knocked back as you'll trade damage and your opponent will take over 20% from the throw and explosion

- you can duck under tornado sometimes if it's being used at autocancel height, if he lowers it shielding it will powershield it automatically and if he ends it on top of you you can dair him

- vs some characters you can run to shield after dthrow and it will shield a buffered get up attack, one particular instance I saw where this would be useful is in the last game vs DSF you grab him with your back to the edge, you on the other side in shield = no safe options. I don't have a complete list of what happens when you do this but I did START testing this a while ago at least, here's some characters http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9900350&postcount=14519

- mix up landings more, you bair nearly every time. seemed like this got worse over time, more b reversals and dodges were used earlier on in the set I think but later on it was mostly bairs and it was getting read a lot

overall your snake is very impressive especially for having just picked him up, looking forward to what you can do with him with more exp

 

[-Ran]

Yay, I'm not the only person that writes notes on characters. I remember showing Roy R my Marth notes and he thought I was insane.

 

[**Havok**]

not signing up for facebook to see your notes but after watching the DSF vids

- I notice you use bair to momentum cancel, you can test this yourself but snake's best momentum cancel vs horizontal attacks is air dodge, FFuair vs vertical attacks(WTF? idk how but that's what my testing gave me). bair is a good compromise between the two if you're not sure which you need/you're sent at a weird angle where you could die from either direction

- usually if you grab around a grenade you use snake's side throws so that you can avoid the explosion yourself, sometimes it can be advantageous to dthrow especially if you have the port to not get knocked back as you'll trade damage and your opponent will take over 20% from the throw and explosion

- you can duck under tornado sometimes if it's being used at autocancel height, if he lowers it shielding it will powershield it automatically and if he ends it on top of you you can dair him

- vs some characters you can run to shield after dthrow and it will shield a buffered get up attack, one particular instance I saw where this would be useful is in the last game vs DSF you grab him with your back to the edge, you on the other side in shield = no safe options. I don't have a complete list of what happens when you do this but I did START testing this a while ago at least, here's some characters http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9900350&postcount=14519

- mix up landings more, you bair nearly every time. seemed like this got worse over time, more b reversals and dodges were used earlier on in the set I think but later on it was mostly bairs and it was getting read a lot

overall your snake is very impressive especially for having just picked him up, looking forward to what you can do with him with more exp

Wow I didn't know anything about the Airddge momentum cancel, ill try that out.

Does taking the grenade explosion beneficial nearly every time with downthrow? Or is that straight percentage dependent?

Thanks for that list, i'll internalize it quick!

As for the landings that was just my nervousness coming into play lol.
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My "best" (work in progress) matchup is MK. I noticed snake has a completely different way of playing in every single matchup lol it's not just details.

Yay, I'm not the only person that writes notes on characters. I remember showing Roy R my Marth notes and he thought I was insane.

To be honest, it's the best way I can internalize quickly without doing it with massive amounts of repetition. I have more notes but some got lost. I'll try and find them.

What are some of ally's, candy's ideal videos? (matchup wise) ? I've seen enough of ally's m2k matches lol

 

[etecoon]

Wow I didn't know anything about the Airddge momentum cancel, ill try that out.

yep, it's a few frames faster than bair but you can't fast fall air dodge so you need to do an aerial if you get hit vertically

Does taking the grenade explosion beneficial nearly every time with downthrow? Or is that straight percentage dependent?

I think it's more % dependent but it can create a more advantageous position if you have the right port since they'll take the nade explosion and you'll be left standing

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

I assume that you are the good MK player Havok. Some good matches although I noticed you through out a neutral air short hopped and that's a bad idea because of the landing lag. Since you are a pro I'm not gonna handout any other tips other than this but some extra point to keep in mind while playing snake are the following.
-Snake is mind games. Not just snake is about mind games he is mind games. I personally think this is what sets Ally above the rest. I've seen him just stand there and turn around and then his opponent dodges to the other side after he has turned around.
-Do not be predictable. This is kind of mind games but a little more than that. Do not go crazy with b-reversals. The reversals are meant to mix up your recovery options.
-Recover smartly with snake or you will not recover at all.
-Grenades are perhaps the best move in the game. They are a counter, break up combos, apply pressure, and can kill.

The guy who posted earlier Ran Iji had a good guide to being a snake player. Its not so much about techniques but mindset.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=272149

Not sure I helped but I can hope. I think we are discussing the MK matchup soon so we'll be pestering you for info on the MU. Welcome to the Thunder Dome

 

[Underload]

Yay, Havok can go to the Supercon Snake dinner now (if he decides to go)! The list is getting more and more epic now.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I used to take notes after tournies, but when I realized all they said were "throw more things" and "go MK" I stopped bothering.

Oh, and your Snake is fun to watch.
In terms of advice, ftilt is a good move.

 

[Blacknight99923]

don't get hit

 

[Attila_]

ill teach you when you come to aus

 

[mosesrko24]

Considering you're a top player I'm surprised to see ask for help. I think you could probably figure it out yourself

 

[**Havok**]

Considering you're a top player I'm surprised to see ask for help. I think you could probably figure it out yourself

And I can but I can speed up the process with a character im not used to.

I'm not everyone else. I'm me. I'm willing to listen.

 

[mosesrko24]

well sometimes you can just sit down and think about all the random things you can do. Like getting back by c4 multiple times without cypher (more damage to you but if it serves your purposes then its an option), falling off the stage with nade in hand to stop them getting back (if well thought out can benefit you) and things like that. There's no limit to the crazy things you can come up with.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I don't have any vids but I am picking up snake as a side for marth (but will be using them both a lot although i do have an ICs in teh works) since havok already made a thread about starting snake I figured I should ask my questions to and hopfully they coincide.

what match ups speifcally should I NOT use snake on?

 

[etecoon]

IMO olimar, I think it's a really stupid matchup but some snake's don't think it's too bad...regardless being a marth main you have no reason to be dealing with that anyway

 

[OverLade]

My snake is in a similar situation to yours. I can only really fight against MK and Dedede at a competitive level. It's really interesting that you take specific notes though.

I could try to help but to be honest I'd rather sit back and learn with you. Your approach to the matchup will probably be good since you live in a region with several different top MKs to practice with.

 

[CO18]

you both will always main

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think > if he didn't wear his stupid tiara

anyway your right I shouldn't need to have to fight olimar as snake when I main marth. The reason I am siding snake is because the mental focus I need to use marth adaquetly is pretty high, and to avoid brain fatigue I need a character that I don't need to focus on spacing PERFECTLY every 5 seconds and I refuse to main MK. I will probably be using Marth to start with and possibly using snake in subsequent rounds. That and I gain a huge counterpick advantedge with snake

 

[DZhou]

IDK if you've ever test this, but would Ftilting a MK who runs at you early enough allow you to not get grabbed if he power shields? Like is the Knee's range > MK grab/dash grab?

 

[etecoon]

I think > if he didn't wear his stupid tiara

anyway your right I shouldn't need to have to fight olimar as snake when I main marth. The reason I am siding snake is because the mental focus I need to use marth adaquetly is pretty high, and to avoid brain fatigue I need a character that I don't need to focus on spacing PERFECTLY every 5 seconds and I refuse to main MK. I will probably be using Marth to start with and possibly using snake in subsequent rounds. That and I gain a huge counterpick advantedge with snake

I've heard this theory before, I think pierce said that's why he seconds falco, snake isn't exactly a simple character himself though, I actually find playing marth a lot easier but that's just me, I'm bad at snake lol

 

[Blacknight99923]

I've heard this theory before, I think pierce said that's why he seconds falco, snake isn't exactly a simple character himself though, I actually find playing marth a lot easier but that's just me, I'm bad at snake lol

I find snake less of a drain on my mental stamina overall, its not snake being a simple character (I worked hard on making my snake decent) its snake doesn't require minute focus to everything and everything the same way it does for marth, mabey its just a personal thing but I find snake far easier to play at a decent level then my marth (but when my marth is hot its HOT)

 

[AfroQT]

If i had to give a tip to anyone, especially for Snake, I'd say that trying to "play safe" isn't always the answer. Sometimes its better to just go for it. If everyone always "played safe" no one would move forward.

 

[Blacknight99923]

If i had to give a tip to anyone, especially for Snake, I'd say that trying to "play safe" isn't always the answer. Sometimes its better to just go for it. If everyone always "played safe" no one would move forward.

I will keep that in mind

 

[etecoon]

If i had to give a tip to anyone, especially for Snake, I'd say that trying to "play safe" isn't always the answer. Sometimes its better to just go for it. If everyone always "played safe" no one would move forward.

tbh I don't see how you even do play safe with snake, everything he does has horrendous lag on it and he can't really protect himself like characters like MK/diddy/falco can anyway...that's my scrub *** opinion anyway -_-

 

[AfroQT]

tbh I don't see how you even do play safe with snake, everything he does has horrendous lag on it and he can't really protect himself like characters like MK/diddy/falco can anyway...that's my scrub *** opinion anyway -_-

When i say play safe, i dont just mean playing defensive. I really mean the "wait for the opponent to mess up" mind set. Just because you hit someone doesnt mean they messed up, and thats something you gotta realize as snake.

 

[OverLade]

You can also made your game safer by leaving nades on the ground. Some characters cant approach certain ways if there's a nade lying next to you which limits their likely approach options and makes them more predictable.

MK shouldn't try to dashgrab snake lying next to a nade, or even shieldgrab him. He's more likely to run and shuttle loop because it blows the grenade up and hurts you if you read him wrong. You can narrow your opponents options slightly with those kind of things.

And the "NADE AT YO FEET" rule applies vs Dedede in pretty much all of your ground game

 

[Blacknight99923]

what characters chiefly will I almost always want a nade at my feet against other then D3 which was already named

 

[CO18]

ice climbers

 

[OverLade]

Pikachu if you're below 10%

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Yay, I'm not the only person that writes notes on characters. I remember showing Roy R my Marth notes and he thought I was insane.

I just remembered a quote vatobreak (mario person cannot remember full name), said that SuSa came to a tourney once with a bunch of information written out.

 

[Blacknight99923]

so in a lot of cases characteres that can CG you

 

[Sugahighsnipa]

a good combo with snake with the grenades is take one out, shield so its at your feet chuck another one and then throw the one on the ground. if they actually hit the opponent or some obstacle the one you had on the ground will blow up the other one for some good damage.

and never forget snake's second recovery move, where you drop the claymore in midair and blow it up beneath you.

 

[etecoon]

so in a lot of cases characteres that can CG you

yes but remember that some can CG you away from your nades like pika and IC's, just having a nade around doesn't actually make you safe all of the time

(that being said I'd still recommend using snake vs IC's instead of marth)

 

[napZzz]

You gotta really think outside the box havok. Like, be really ****in creative. Know all your moves, know when you can use them, know how you'll be able to switch up, and do your best to make **** so stupid you'll blow people away with it (literally)

Its more of taking the time to develop your own style and improve on it I guess. Take time doing different things constantly so you never get stuck into certain patterns, because it seems like its easy to do it as snake for some reason, maybe thats just me though :/

 

[**Havok**]

Ok this past weekend I went all snake and was *****.

lol

Not in doubles at least.

I'm never playing vs pikachu with snake again lmao. D3 feels fine.

I need to put time in the character, after finals week. Thanks to those leaving me hints here and there.

I'll post up more of my notes so I can share with you guys.

 

[OverLade]

Ok this past weekend I went all snake and was *****.

lol

Not in doubles at least.

I'm never playing vs pikachu with snake again lmao. D3 feels fine.

I need to put time in the character, after finals week. Thanks to those leaving me hints here and there.

I'll post up more of my notes so I can share with you guys.

Imo Pikachu isn't that bad. If you blow yourself up and take the 15% necessary to avoid the chaingrab you'll thank yourself later.

Reverse grab should beat all of pikachu's approaches and mixing that up with Jan and Ftilt should secure you for the most part.

Are there any recent vids?

 

[6Mizu]

Havok why do you wanna learn Snake? Just play MK.