Heir to the Monado. Shulk General Discussion/Social Thread

[DaDavid]

I'm sure this argument has already been addressed at one point, but how does the fact Golden Sun is going to be available on the Wii u affect Shulk's chances? A little? Not at all?

It doesn't help or hurt Isaac in the slightest, and even if it did, it would only somewhat slightly indirectly affect Shulk. Same as any other character does by merit of time needing to be spent on them.

@ foolssigma That's very true. Brawl seemed to have a pretty sizable gap between what was going on and what was repped in Brawl. Olimar and Pikmin as a whole I believe was the newest thing to be shown off in that game as far as characters, and Pikmin was how old at that point? Stages and stuff is a little trickier to compare though... Yeah we have X/Y as a very recent game, and Lost Worlds is pretty new too, but other than that the things that we see as "recent" are about as old as Pikmin was for Brawl.

 

[IsmaR]

Falco isn't necessarily fast. He was in an Arwing all the time up until Melee.

I was basing it off of games after Melee, where he tends to be faster/a better pilot than Fox, albeit much more frail.

It is entirely likely that he will remain true to his Smash self rather than the games, admittedly, since that was established first.

Samus is about as fast as she is in the games.

In 64, maybe. Not even counting the Speed Booster, Metroid: Other M, or even the "decreased gravity because she's floaty in Metroid" aspects, she's always been slower than even an average speed character. This is more evident since ZSS was introduced.

Mewtwo is one of the strongest Pokemon in the series, so there is a reason he's slowed down.

I'm not seeing how that translates to balance. He's not even close to being one of the strongest characters in any aspect aside from maybe recovery and throws.

My point is simply that just because a character is known for their strengths/weaknesses in their games doesn't mean they will carry over to balance in Smash. A perfect example is Little Mac, who despite being one of the weaker WVBA fighters (always having to rely on speed/maneuverability) appears to be a power character in Smash. I think it truly just comes down to what "makes sense" to Sakurai, as evident with Ike's handling of his BFS with only one hand, or Link/Snake lugging around all their heavy gear actually slowing them down.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I was basing it off of games after Melee, where he tends to be faster/a better pilot than Fox, albeit much more frail.

It is entirely likely that he will remain true to his Smash self rather than the games, admittedly, since that was established first.



In 64, maybe. Not even counting the Speed Booster, Metroid: Other M, or even the "decreased gravity because she's floaty in Metroid" aspects, she's always been slower than even an average speed character. This is more evident since ZSS was introduced.



I'm not seeing how that translates to balance. He's not even close to being one of the strongest characters in any aspect aside from maybe recovery and throws.

My point is simply that just because a character is known for their strengths/weaknesses in their games doesn't mean they will carry over to balance in Smash. A perfect example is Little Mac, who despite being one of the weaker WVBA fighters (always having to rely on speed/maneuverability) appears to be a power character in Smash. I think it truly just comes down to what "makes sense" to Sakurai, as evident with Ike's handling of his BFS with only one hand, or Link/Snake lugging around all their heavy gear actually slowing them down.

Yeah I'd say IsmaR covered this well. Sakurai's logic doesn't always match with the character's source material.

Ike is fast and nimble in Path of Radiance, whereas in Smash he's slow.

I'd argue that Snake's equipment didn't really slow him down in game during MGS, although I can agree with jumping being difficult. His running was a good speed though.

Mewtwo may have been light, but he was not balanced properly at all. AT ALL. He was light, he ran slow, but he overall was not that good of a character. I'm thinking Sakurai will fix a lot of problems with characters (hopefully) or at least the Namco team will.

 

[SmashChu]

I was basing it off of games after Melee, where he tends to be faster/a better pilot than Fox, albeit much more frail.

It is entirely likely that he will remain true to his Smash self rather than the games, admittedly, since that was established first.


In 64, maybe. Not even counting the Speed Booster, Metroid: Other M, or even the "decreased gravity because she's floaty in Metroid" aspects, she's always been slower than even an average speed character. This is more evident since ZSS was introduced.

The characters were designed around content created before the character was added and since Smash characters don't see move revamps between games (usually), than any thing about the character created prior doesn't matter. Also, Samuis isn't seen as a fast character and movves about as fast in Smash as she does in her games. She is also wearing MASSIVE armor.

I'm not seeing how that translates to balance. He's not even close to being one of the strongest characters in any aspect aside from maybe recovery and throws.

Again, Mewtwo isn't going to translate 1:1 because he is the strongest Pokemon. He is psychic so that is taken into account. He uses the same jumping style as Ness/Lucas and he has good throw like them. Not sure the issue here.

My point is simply that just because a character is known for their strengths/weaknesses in their games doesn't mean they will carry over to balance in Smash. A perfect example is Little Mac, who despite being one of the weaker WVBA fighters (always having to rely on speed/maneuverability) appears to be a power character in Smash. I think it truly just comes down to what "makes sense" to Sakurai, as evident with Ike's handling of his BFS with only one hand, or Link/Snake lugging around all their heavy gear actually slowing them down.

Character don't perfectly translate, but they don't totally change what makes sense. Shulk is a fast character in his game, so why would he be slow?

Ike is fast and nimble in Path of Radiance, whereas in Smash he's slow.

Ike wasn't nimble. He was good overall, but he excelled in strength. Not to mention he is using a two handed sword. So he's going to be slow.

Well if you see how slow he runs in Xenoblade, he would be one.

Every character runs the same speed. He has good agility and dodges well (gameplay and cut scenes). Watch the cutscenes. He's very nimble.

 

[Raetah]

That recency argument is absolutely stupid and I find it to be an excuse to argue why Shulk should not be in Smash.
You know when Pokemon Red and Green were released in Japan? 1996. When did SSB64 get released in? 1999.
Xenoblade came in 2010 and we will probably get this game in 2014. So... the time between Pokemon and SSB64 is shorter than the time between Xenoblade and SSB4; 3 years from Pokemon to Xenoblade's 4. Being too recent didn't stop Pokemon from getting 2 representatives in Smash. Heck, Pichu got in Melee 2 years after its debut; Lucario got in Brawl 3 years after its debut (2 if you don't count the anime); Ike from Fire Emblem got in Brawl 3 years after his debut. These are times that are shorter than Shulk's creation and SSB4's release. Heck, how come people aren't complaining about Chrom, Lucina, Robin, and other characters from Awakening for being too new when Xenoblade was released two years before it in Japan?

Shulk is from a series that is new, but that doesn't mean that Shulk should not be in Smash. His fan demand and Xenoblade's popularity definitely helps him... it's especially important that the roster was decided around when Xenoblade got released in America.

You can't really compare Xenoblade to Pokemon at all. First Pokemon titles were a Big Bang. Xenoblade is waaaay far from the impact in videogame history that Red, Green and Blue caused.

 

[DaDavid]

If Mewtwo doesn't translate 1:1 because of how strong he is in his universe, then you're looking at the exact same thing for Shulk...

Not to mention Agility is Xenoblade does not mean speed. It's closer to dexterity and reflex than to actual speed.

But really the only thing that matters is that first line. If you're making an exception for Mewtwo, it applies to Shulk as well. He's the strongest character in the game, so why would that clause not apply to him?

 

[SpindaMaster]

But really the only thing that matters is that first line. If you're making an exception for Mewtwo, it applies to Shulk as well. He's the strongest character in the game, so why would that clause not apply to him?

Actually, from my experiences, Riki is the strongest. But that might just be me.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, from my experiences, Riki is the strongest. But that might just be me.

Not powerful in-game battles, but just all-around powerful in general.
Shulk is rather strong seeing as what he could do in cutscenes and the Monado itself is an extremely powerful weapon.
[collapse=Xenoblade spoilers!]Hell, it even killed A GOD![/collapse]
Mewtwo is known as the "World's Most Powerful Pokemon" (until Arceus came around) and yet its true potential wasn't fully unleashed in Smash.

You can't really compare Xenoblade to Pokemon at all. First Pokemon titles were a Big Bang. Xenoblade is waaaay far from the impact in videogame history that Red, Green and Blue caused.

But why should people call Xenoblade "too new" when Pokemon was "too new" back then. If that rule does somehow exist, then Pokemon shouldn't be the exception back then.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Speed is more then just running, you also have to consider the air mobility, falling speed, rolling, and attack speed, which the overall combination determines how agile a character is.

 

[SmashChu]

If Mewtwo doesn't translate 1:1 because of how strong he is in his universe, then you're looking at the exact same thing for Shulk...

Not to mention Agility is Xenoblade does not mean speed. It's closer to dexterity and reflex than to actual speed.

But really the only thing that matters is that first line. If you're making an exception for Mewtwo, it applies to Shulk as well. He's the strongest character in the game, so why would that clause not apply to him?

Stat wise, he not the strongest at all. Mewtwo is strong stat wise.

I'm not arguing that character need to be changed. I'm saying that what people are suggesting make no damn sense. Why would he be slow. Nothing he does makes him seem like he's a slow character. Xenoblade characters move at a pretty average pace. He's got high agility. He does crazy jumps and flips in the cutscenes.

 

[Raetah]

Why would he be slow? He's a fast character in Xenoblade. Near Dunbar on agility. His HP also sucked.

I asked the same question 3 months ago, but i was talking about Isaac in Golden Sun instead. Although not being top character in agility, Isaac is 3rd from all the TLA 8 adepts in agility, using the correct settings (Class, Equipment, Djinns) he can easily become your faster character in your team. Yet everyone seems to agree that Isaac must be an slow character.

I have seen some gameplays and cutscenes of Xenoblade and yes, he is really fast and all, but Smash Bros is well known for being unaccurated in many things representating characters.

People think that Shulk must be an slow character because they see a big sword, and instantly think in Ike. As it seems to happen with Isaac psynergy, everyone thinks that long range itself justifies a poor speed.

 

[SmashChu]

I asked the same question 3 months ago, but i was talking about Isaac in Golden Sun instead. Although not being top character in agility, Isaac is 3rd from all the TLA 8 adepts in agility, using the correct settings (Class, Equipment, Djinns) he can easily become your faster character in your team. Yet everyone seems to agree that Isaac must be an slow character.

I have seen some gameplays and cutscenes of Xenoblade and yes, he is really fast and all, but Smash Bros is well known for being unaccurated in many things representating characters.

People think that Shulk must be an slow character because they see a big sword, and instantly think in Ike. As it seems to happen with Isaac psynergy, everyone thinks that long range itself justifies a poor speed.

What people don't understand is that Smash doesn't take that many liberties. Sakurai has said many times that he tries to make the character close their their actual game as possible. You can't do this with every character, but you can do it with a lot. Samus's floaty jump is an example of this. People see Captain Falcon and assume everything can be completely different.

Shulk isn't slow. He pretty agile in both the game and cutscenes. He would more likely be light as he's not very big in the game and he has bad HP. It would make more sense for that to be his weakness.
The same is true of Issac. He's really only beaten by Wind Adepts, who are notoriously fast. Issac is closer to middle of the road than slow.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Sakurai has said many times that he tries to make the character close their their actual game as possible.

[citation needed]

 

[Deleted member]

I can imagine Shulk be some sort of powerhouse in terms of attacks.
He could have some quick and powerful attacks, but he can be very punishable. One wrong move and you could be sent flying. The closest kind of gameplay style for Shulk to represent his Visions are predictions. If you predict correctly on what your opponent is going to do, you can either rack up more damage or use a finishing blow.
However, I can see him be very light. The Monado is a rather unique weapon that isn't like Ike's sword. It's big and hulking yes, but it doesn't seem like it would be a heavy weapon. I guess to compensate for his great attacks, he could be on the light side. He could be a glass cannon in that sense.

 

[Raetah]

Sakurai has said many times that he tries to make the character close their their actual game as possible.

This statement dont makes much sense at all with Ganondorf.

 

[DaDavid]

Until you're able to point to something that actually suggests and proves that Sakurai tries to make characters close to actual games, you're just spouting a bunch of assumption.

People saying Shulk would be slow are saying so for BALANCE reasons based on the move-sets that they are speculating. You're the only one suggesting that this is somehow incorrect and unprecedented.

 

[SmashChu]

This statement dont makes much sense at all with Ganondorf.

First, remember that the first game to have Ganondorf was Ocarina of Time and he was then added to Melee. Everyone thinks Ganondorf is so far removed from his games because he doesn't have a sword, but he didn't have a sword in OoT. All he really did was shot a ball and slam the ground. Since his form was similar to Capt. Falcon, he was made like him. Sakurai also said he wouldn't have been included otherwise. It makes sense what he does. He holds the Triforce of power. He uses it to be powerful which is what happens in Smash. They have tried to make him closer to the game. Two moves were taken right from Twilight Princess.

 

[Raetah]

First, remember that the first game to have Ganondorf was Ocarina of Time and he was then added to Melee. Everyone thinks Ganondorf is so far removed from his games because he doesn't have a sword, but he didn't have a sword in OoT. All he really did was shot a ball and slam the ground. Since his form was similar to Capt. Falcon, he was made like him. Sakurai also said he wouldn't have been included otherwise. It makes sense what he does. He holds the Triforce of power. He uses it to be powerful which is what happens in Smash. They have tried to make him closer to the game. Two moves were taken right from Twilight Princess.

No sorry, i mean no. Im not complaining about Ganondorf not using a sword, because after all, Ganondorf incarnations are different in each game.
If you want to create a moveset based in Ocarina of time, it would involve powers like levitation, electrical projectiles, a cape that reflects projectiles, the punch in the ground, waves of darkness. Using those elements i can obtain a really different character than a Falcon clone, and if you think that is not enough, they could add some fire, teleport or invisible abilities used frequently by Ganon form. Even if Ganondorf dont makes use of them in OoT, it would make much sense than being a Falcon clone.

 

[yoonb]

As far as Sakurai saying he wants characters to be as close to their game incarnations, the closest thing I remember to hearing that was the Developer direct. And even then, he only mentioned that "Keeping Mega Man close to his NES look was a top priority."

I think he does take in-game stats into account (Mario supposedly having no weaknesses but no strengths is the first thing I think of. But that didn't necessarily work out well), but I also think that Sakurai does try to add his own spin onto what he thinks fits the character the best. Sakurai PROBABLY thought Mewtwo being slower than Pikachu would be fitting despite him having a much higher base speed stat in the Pokemon games. He's got insane throws which could be homage to his high special attack, but other than that. Mewtwo is trash.

We may also see inspiration from animes. I believe that Pikachu is more inspired by his anime appearance and a hint of TCG (say hello to thunder jolt). Pikachu has always been depicted in the anime as a fast Pokemon despite what the games say.

But then we see exceptions to inspiration from both games and anime. Ganon was awfully close to Falcon despite them not even being from the same franchise and though he's a lot different in Brawl, they're still pretty similar (Flame Choke is a boss move, though). And we've seen Ganon go from a fast moving character to a slower one.

Honestly, Sakurai is just hard to figure out. I'm sure he cares about the way a character is represented in the game but he's also got to balance the game. I'm sure it's a nightmare for him to figure out.

That being said, to me, Shulk seems more like a glass cannon. Hard hitting but with the Monado's powers (Speed), he can also be mobile. That's how I always depicted him to turn out. Kind of like a project m Lucario without that combo system and the aura substituted for Monado arts. That was a lot to right so my thoughts are all over the place. I wanna apologize ahead of time if I confused anyone.

 

[DaDavid]

People don't think Ganondorf is untrue to the Zeldaverse just because he doesn't have a sword. It's because he has NEVER been a fist fighter/brawler as he's depicted.

At any rate, you can go back and try to justify why a character plays a certain way but that doesn't mean that's why Sakurai made it so. IF Shulk ends up slow people could obviously complain he isn't "true to this character" but if it makes sense given his move-set, what would it matter? We can't know what would or wouldn't happen if he gets in at all, everyone's just speculating. N

Basically... no one has to defend their decision to speculate that he'd be slow or fast or somewhere in between. It's usually just a product of how they see the character potentially playing. (Hell even if they do defend it, chances are people will still disagree because opinions.)

But to bring us back to what we're supposed to do 'round these parts, (over-analyzing everything that helps Shulk in any way) Luigi getting his Poltergust as an FS means one of two things.

Either A.) Sakurai is incorporating fairly new stuff (I'm sure it has more to do with Dark Moon than the original.) or B.) Sakurai has implemented something else for which there was fan demand (people have been wanting that as his FS since Brawl.) Does that say anything about Shulk? No not really. Of course!

 

[Deleted member]

Brawler610 is bumping this thread, BUT DON'T DROP YOUR GUARDS!

Alright, alright, alright. We are getting a Smash Direct on Tuesday. I don't think that Shulk is going to get confirmed... but I really hope that he does get confirmed. My hype will go through the roof if he gets confirmed!

 

[yoonb]

I hope we'll see Shulk but it's hard to tell at this point. A newcomer for sure, maybe two. We'll also probably be seeing a lot of veterans return. But those are just predictions.

 

[Creo]

While I'm uncertain as to whether or not I should expect Shulk to be revealed for the upcoming Nintendo Direct, Xenoblade Chronicles will see its North American release anniversary come Sunday, April 6th (being two years), so perhaps the Monday after (or the day of the direct) we will be able to see some related information of Xenoblade Chronicles in SSB4, whether it be Shulk, a stage, music, etc. Perhaps it is grasping at straws, to be sure, but I suppose it's better than grasping onto nothing, right?

Edit: SorayaSaga has tweeted about the upcoming direct as well. Our day could be right around the corner, everyone!

 

[Snagrio]

I don't know about you guys, but with everyone expecting Palutena, Ridley, K.Rool, and/or Chrom, Shulk seems like the perfect unsuspecting curveball Sakurai would throw at us.

 

[8-peacock-8]

I don't know about you guys, but with everyone expecting Palutena, Ridley, K.Rool, and/or Chrom, Shulk seems like the perfect unsuspecting curveball Sakurai would throw at us.

Or just give us a face full of Ridley.

 

[foolssigma]

I'm expecting two newcomers plus a slew of other various information no one anticipated. I'm not saying Shulk is a lock or anything, but I think he has a chance of showing up on Thursday. Isaac/Shulk would be the best possible scenario, followed by Shulk/Palutena. or Shulk/Ridley..Anything with Shulk though is obviously great. @ Creo The anniversary may help a tad, but have anniversaries been telling of characters in the past?

 

[DaDavid]

Anniversaries haven't ever been shown to be causal. Sakurai hasn't addressed them except for the Brawl one for Lucario, so in my mind that's just a coincidence otherwise.

But about this Direct... I think we have a decent chance to see SOMETHING Xenoblade related. I mean it's an entire (at least) 20 minutes dedicated to JUST Smash. Whether we get a taste of some music, a few ATs, stages, or new characters, I can't imagine not seeing something from Xenoblade if anything is in at all.

 

[Deleted member]

While I'm uncertain as to whether or not I should expect Shulk to be revealed for the upcoming Nintendo Direct, Xenoblade Chronicles will see its North American release anniversary come Sunday, April 6th (being two years), so perhaps the Monday after (or the day of the direct)

Now that you've mentioned that... I have some hope for Shulk, but I really just want to see him get confirmed now. I am not expecting him to and I am not going to hype myself for him, but I find that April would be a perfect time to reveal Shulk and/or Palutena.
If I was Sakurai, I would reveal a ton of veterans as well as show trailers for Shulk and Palutena. Shulk and Palutena are characters that will reignite the interest in Smash 4 for some people. When E3 comes around, they could reveal a character like Pac-Man or Mewtwo just to bring hype to the game for a long time.

 

[DaDavid]

Now that you've mentioned that... I have some hope for Shulk, but I really just want to see him get confirmed now. I am not expecting him to and I am not going to hype myself for him, but I find that April would be a perfect time to reveal Shulk and/or Palutena.
If I was Sakurai, I would reveal a ton of veterans as well as show trailers for Shulk and Palutena. Shulk and Palutena are characters that will reignite the interest in Smash 4 for some people. When E3 comes around, they could reveal a character like Pac-Man or Mewtwo just to bring hype to the game for a long time.

Again, I doubt anniversaries play much of a role. I think that Shulk could potentially be shown off in this Direct because it's focused purely on Smash, which would allow Sakurai/Iwata to contextualize him. Showing just a trailer would leave a lot of people going "eh?" Where as with a more dedicated Direct reveal, they can explain who he is, what he does, etc.

I still don't expect him, but compared to standard, general Directs, I think it's more likely.

 

[Deleted member]

Again, I doubt anniversaries play much of a role. I think that Shulk could potentially be shown off in this Direct because it's focused purely on Smash, which would allow Sakurai/Iwata to contextualize him. Showing just a trailer would leave a lot of people going "eh?" Where as with a more dedicated Direct reveal, they can explain who he is, what he does, etc.

I still don't expect him, but compared to standard, general Directs, I think it's more likely.

If a newcomer is shown, I bet that Sakurai or Iwata or whoever will explain what that character can do to sell the character more. I can see Shulk get revealed on Tuesday for that reason or he could get revealed at E3 where there will be a Developer Direct.
I don't think that we will get Shulk, but I can dream about it.

 

[DaDavid]

If a newcomer is shown, I bet that Sakurai or Iwata or whoever will explain what that character can do to sell the character more. I can see Shulk get revealed on Tuesday for that reason or he could get revealed at E3 where there will be a Developer Direct.
I don't think that we will get Shulk, but I can dream about it.

Yup. This is actually the first time I'm going to allow myself to somewhat "expect" him to be shown. Or Xenoblade stuff in general.

 

[Deleted member]

Yup. This is actually the first time I'm going to allow myself to somewhat "expect" him to be shown. Or Xenoblade stuff in general.

I can see him get confirmed, but I am going to keep my expectations low.
Honestly, I am expecting him to get in Smash. I don't expect him to be revealed in that Direct; I am hoping that he is revealed in that Direct.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

https://twitter.com/sorayasaga/status/452422712183386112

Usually Soraya Song tweets about Nintendo when some info on X is coming..could this mean Shulk? Maybe

 

[Banjodorf]

That's certainly an interesting possibility. Did they tweet the same thing last direct?

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

That's certainly an interesting possibility. Did they tweet the same thing last direct?

She tweet something different but..it was right before ND where X gameplay was shown

 

[Deleted member]

https://twitter.com/sorayasaga/status/452422712183386112

Usually Soraya Song tweets about Nintendo when some info on X is coming..could this mean Shulk? Maybe

Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god!
I really hope that we see Shulk in the Direct! LET ME FINALLY BEHOLD THE POWER OF THE MONADO IN SMASH!
I won't take this as anything major... but it gives me more hope for Monado Boy.

 

[foolssigma]

This is exciting. She said in one of the follow up tweets after someone asked about Shulk: "Shouldn't I simply look forward to other companies' games? (the proper translation of 楽しみ is "I'm looking forward to".)"

That is likely true, but it could be a subtle hint towards something. I'm trying to not get too excited.

 

[Raetah]

Golden Sun was released recently in Virtual Console of Wii U, this means that Isaac is going to be revealed in the Direct (;D).

No. Honestly i dont think that we are going to see Isaac revealed for just VC. I think that in the next direct many Veterans like Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Ness or Jigglypuff are going to be confirmed. And probably one newcomer.

 

[DaDavid]

I was excited at the link, but seeing it in context it doesn't seem to say anything. She's looking forwards to the game, it's not even specifically about the Direct from what I can tell.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

I don't think we are going to see Ridley annouced because he would be the perfect for E3..having a charcter like Shulk announced at ND would be perfect