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Hardest Characters to Play Debate

Stray Sheep

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
24
Location
East Menlo Park
Forgot the mention Samus's ****ty grab, which requires a very good read to get attain, and the benfit of landing a grab with Samus isn't better than that of any character.

Also I don't think tech skill should be discussed along with the analysis and creativity needed to win with a a character, though it's certainly worth mentioning. Fox's speed is very overwhelming.

Also, I don't think Fox is that high risk/high reward, if he were he wouldn't be the best character in the game. Fox has a decent recovery with up b and side b, he doesn't get gimped like Marth. And even though Samus isn't high risk she's still eating damage a lot of times, and a Fox upsmash at sub 100 will still kill her like any other character. Crouch cancelling with Samus ***** though. Don't really know much about IC's at all so not gonna comment.

In the end every character is hard in their own way and easy in their own way, so I think it would be hard to get anything concrete from this discussion.

I'm still learning this game so remember it's all in my opinion, if I say something dumb, I'm sorry, I'm just speaking from my perspective.
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
To be far if we are talking about how HARD it is to play a who ever I would think counting in the skills needed to play them right should be counted, even more then its a skill that's basically a must like wavedashing for ice climbers is a must unlike some. You must be able to have tech skill at a said level if You hope to go farther. Otherwise You are limiting Yourself in every right.

:phone:
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
Then what kind of skill are we talking about? If tech skill isn't part of it then wouldn't sheik be just a hard as fox? Or maybe harder to play as than most of sheiks match-ups because they could cc/dd sheiks stuff.

If we are talking without any kind of tech skill or chance of relate error then I fail to under how it can be possible to have chartcer skill because the rest is mental which beg the question what are we talking about?

:phone:
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
This thread again?

I swear I did an entire writeup on this thread and how it never goes ****ing anywhere because it's like:

Group A - Space animals are so hard to use! Buttons!

Group B - No! Their actual required tech skill is low (people just do unnecessary stuff with them)! Also, options! Because they have more hard counters to defensive stuff and great safety in close combat, they're afforded more freedom in a plethora of common situations.

Group C - Know who's hard to play? Pichu. Nobody uses Pichu at top level. Pichu is therefore the hardest character to play.

Group A - Pichu doesn't require buttons! He's easy to play, he just sucks! His learning curve is actually very low!

And so forth and so on.

I personally think it's Yoshi. After that I don't know.
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
Really the game is as hard as You make it. Everything is easy on slow mo so not even tech skill can be a serious debate. Just how we play it just happens its pretty hard.

:phone:
 

Metakill

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2009
Messages
483
Location
#MangoNation
low level = fox/falco/sheik
mid level = fox/falco/marth
high level = fox/ICs/Falcon
top/pro level = fox/Peach/ganon/ICs
 

twizzlerj

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Messages
349
Location
Freehold NJ
This thread again?

I swear I did an entire writeup on this thread and how it never goes ****ing anywhere because it's like:

Group A - Space animals are so hard to use! Buttons!

Group B - No! Their actual required tech skill is low (people just do unnecessary stuff with them)! Also, options! Because they have more hard counters to defensive stuff and great safety in close combat, they're afforded more freedom in a plethora of common situations.

Group C - Know who's hard to play? Pichu. Nobody uses Pichu at top level. Pichu is therefore the hardest character to play.

Group A - Pichu doesn't require buttons! He's easy to play, he just sucks! His learning curve is actually very low!

And so forth and so on.

I personally think it's Yoshi. After that I don't know.
Yoshi is difficult and nothing can be set in stone when it comes to character difficulty so why try to argue.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
Link is pretty hard. Take's some pretty good reaction time to know when to just stand still so you can block Samus' missiles.
 

1337h4xx0r

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
80
Location
Chilliwack, B.C., Canada
Well, it depends. It's one thing if you just mean hardest to get good with, but it's something entirely different for mastering to the same extent as the top level players. IMO, it goes something like this:

Getting good with:
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Samus
4. Yoshi
5. Falcon

Perfecting:
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Peach
4. Samus
5. Sheik
 

Citizen Snips

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
475
Location
Yardley PA
Master Hand is the hardest. This isn't even a question, and anyone who argues it is stupid.

He is so hard, sometimes his controls flat out DO NOT work and you literally cannot win a match.

I win, you lose, discussion over, thread closed.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
You could break down the requirements of a character to be "played well" and see results with, then rank characters accordingly.

I think one of the best indicators of a difficult to use character would be option coverage; a character who has fewer decisions to make will be a simpler and easier character on a decision making level, whereas a character who has specific tools for specific situations and must constantly choose those appropriate responses would be more difficult.

Example: you have a move that hits on both sides of you and lasts awhile. This move makes it so you don't have to worry about the spacing on things like crossups, or worry as much about the timing on covering options like dodges. Using this move well is not difficult and gives good rewards, so in this instance, difficulty is low. If a character could always rely on this move and win games, winning with that character would--as a result--be simpler than winning with a character lacking such a move. When a character has options that lack downsides, decision making becomes much easier and therefore playing the character well becomes easier.

Tech-floor is another. Tech-ceiling obviously means your character's maximum, but what does your character demand of you to even be able to compete at all? Yoshi would probably have one of the highest tech-floors in the game, since he mostly lacks mixup and spacing options without excellent DJC control and his shield game is terrible without implementing his parry. At a lower level Peach has virtually no tech-floor, but at a higher one she can be quite demanding. Same with Marth. Let's be honest about Fox; how technical do you REALLY have to be in order to see excellent results? Not necessarily perfectly optimal results in every scenario, but to yield good returns off correct decisions? Not as high as you might think, for his tournament worthy basics.

Window-size; kind of like option coverage but more specific. Your option for winning a scenario may exist, but then it may also require excellent timing. Again, your character would--in this situation--demand good response choice and execute that response with precision. Falcon's d-air -> knee is easy to execute once you land the d-air because the window for hitting with the knee is usually so large (from both spacing and timing perspectives). So in that scenario, Falcon is an easy character.

Of course, then it bears asking how well Falcon's d-air covers options, and how hard it is to land a d-air in the appropriate percent window on a grounded opponent. These would have to factor into the scenario so you know how easy it REALLY is to do a d-air -> knee.

Risk; do your viable options involve lots of risk? Wobbling is easy, but against a competent Fox with IC experience, any opening can yield a dead Nana and suddenly you are not quite as good a character, so there are times where going for a grab is insanely risky. And how easy is it for the Ice Climbers to grab a Fox, and in what scenarios can the grab occur? Taking these into account will give you more insight into how difficult or easy it is to execute a character's options.

Payoff: characters with lower payoff require more good decision making. Simple.

If your character has nothing but high risk options with small window sizes that only work in specific scenarios and require years of practice to execute, then I think we would say your character is pretty difficult; you need good timing, execution, and decision making, and screwing up will kill you. At the other end, your character might have low risk (difficult to combo or kill yourself with), great range and windows on landing your moves, simple execution requirements for using your viable options, and on top of that it's easy to see which option is best in a scenario. That character would be very easy.

So if you want to judge how difficult a character is, I recommend taking factors like the above into account.

Final note: don't confuse viability with difficulty. When discussing difficulty, we assume a character has the tools to be viable, and then we discuss what the requirements are for using those tools. You don't say a video game is difficult because there's a segment with a wall that you can't pass and so the game can't be finished; you simply say "the game can't be finished," and you're done with it.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
You could break down the requirements of a character to be "played well" and see results with, then rank characters accordingly.

I think one of the best indicators of a difficult to use character would be option coverage; a character who has fewer decisions to make will be a simpler and easier character on a decision making level, whereas a character who has specific tools for specific situations and must constantly choose those appropriate responses would be more difficult.

Example: you have a move that hits on both sides of you and lasts awhile. This move makes it so you don't have to worry about the spacing on things like crossups, or worry as much about the timing on covering options like dodges. Using this move well is not difficult and gives good rewards, so in this instance, difficulty is low. If a character could always rely on this move and win games, winning with that character would--as a result--be simpler than winning with a character lacking such a move. When a character has options that lack downsides, decision making becomes much easier and therefore playing the character well becomes easier.

Tech-floor is another. Tech-ceiling obviously means your character's maximum, but what does your character demand of you to even be able to compete at all? Yoshi would probably have one of the highest tech-floors in the game, since he mostly lacks mixup and spacing options without excellent DJC control and his shield game is terrible without implementing his parry. At a lower level Peach has virtually no tech-floor, but at a higher one she can be quite demanding. Same with Marth. Let's be honest about Fox; how technical do you REALLY have to be in order to see excellent results? Not necessarily perfectly optimal results in every scenario, but to yield good returns off correct decisions? Not as high as you might think, for his tournament worthy basics.

Window-size; kind of like option coverage but more specific. Your option for winning a scenario may exist, but then it may also require excellent timing. Again, your character would--in this situation--demand good response choice and execute that response with precision. Falcon's d-air -> knee is easy to execute once you land the d-air because the window for hitting with the knee is usually so large (from both spacing and timing perspectives). So in that scenario, Falcon is an easy character.

Of course, then it bears asking how well Falcon's d-air covers options, and how hard it is to land a d-air in the appropriate percent window on a grounded opponent. These would have to factor into the scenario so you know how easy it REALLY is to do a d-air -> knee.

Risk; do your viable options involve lots of risk? Wobbling is easy, but against a competent Fox with IC experience, any opening can yield a dead Nana and suddenly you are not quite as good a character, so there are times where going for a grab is insanely risky. And how easy is it for the Ice Climbers to grab a Fox, and in what scenarios can the grab occur? Taking these into account will give you more insight into how difficult or easy it is to execute a character's options.

Payoff: characters with lower payoff require more good decision making. Simple.

If your character has nothing but high risk options with small window sizes that only work in specific scenarios and require years of practice to execute, then I think we would say your character is pretty difficult; you need good timing, execution, and decision making, and screwing up will kill you. At the other end, your character might have low risk (difficult to combo or kill yourself with), great range and windows on landing your moves, simple execution requirements for using your viable options, and on top of that it's easy to see which option is best in a scenario. That character would be very easy.

So if you want to judge how difficult a character is, I recommend taking factors like the above into account.

Final note: don't confuse viability with difficulty. When discussing difficulty, we assume a character has the tools to be viable, and then we discuss what the requirements are for using those tools. You don't say a video game is difficult because there's a segment with a wall that you can't pass and so the game can't be finished; you simply say "the game can't be finished," and you're done with it.
whoa, great post in a terrible thread
 

ZaneAgo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
4
Location
Auburn, California
I think it is Fox. He is too much, it is tiring. The first time I tried him I used the dash attack and flew of the stadium and couldn't jump back up.
 

Avalancer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
262
Location
The Netherlands
Fox, Falco and IC

TBH, I don't think any of the characters are considerably harder to master than others. You'll have to practice with all of them for a long time to win at tournaments
 

n1000

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
283
Location
ABQ
You could break down the requirements of a character to be "played well" and see results with, then rank characters accordingly.

I think one of the best indicators of a difficult to use character would be option coverage; a character who has fewer decisions to make will be a simpler and easier character on a decision making level, whereas a character who has specific tools for specific situations and must constantly choose those appropriate responses would be more difficult.

Example: you have a move that hits on both sides of you and lasts awhile. This move makes it so you don't have to worry about the spacing on things like crossups, or worry as much about the timing on covering options like dodges. Using this move well is not difficult and gives good rewards, so in this instance, difficulty is low. If a character could always rely on this move and win games, winning with that character would--as a result--be simpler than winning with a character lacking such a move. When a character has options that lack downsides, decision making becomes much easier and therefore playing the character well becomes easier.

Tech-floor is another. Tech-ceiling obviously means your character's maximum, but what does your character demand of you to even be able to compete at all? Yoshi would probably have one of the highest tech-floors in the game, since he mostly lacks mixup and spacing options without excellent DJC control and his shield game is terrible without implementing his parry. At a lower level Peach has virtually no tech-floor, but at a higher one she can be quite demanding. Same with Marth. Let's be honest about Fox; how technical do you REALLY have to be in order to see excellent results? Not necessarily perfectly optimal results in every scenario, but to yield good returns off correct decisions? Not as high as you might think, for his tournament worthy basics.

Window-size; kind of like option coverage but more specific. Your option for winning a scenario may exist, but then it may also require excellent timing. Again, your character would--in this situation--demand good response choice and execute that response with precision. Falcon's d-air -> knee is easy to execute once you land the d-air because the window for hitting with the knee is usually so large (from both spacing and timing perspectives). So in that scenario, Falcon is an easy character.

Of course, then it bears asking how well Falcon's d-air covers options, and how hard it is to land a d-air in the appropriate percent window on a grounded opponent. These would have to factor into the scenario so you know how easy it REALLY is to do a d-air -> knee.

Risk; do your viable options involve lots of risk? Wobbling is easy, but against a competent Fox with IC experience, any opening can yield a dead Nana and suddenly you are not quite as good a character, so there are times where going for a grab is insanely risky. And how easy is it for the Ice Climbers to grab a Fox, and in what scenarios can the grab occur? Taking these into account will give you more insight into how difficult or easy it is to execute a character's options.

Payoff: characters with lower payoff require more good decision making. Simple.

If your character has nothing but high risk options with small window sizes that only work in specific scenarios and require years of practice to execute, then I think we would say your character is pretty difficult; you need good timing, execution, and decision making, and screwing up will kill you. At the other end, your character might have low risk (difficult to combo or kill yourself with), great range and windows on landing your moves, simple execution requirements for using your viable options, and on top of that it's easy to see which option is best in a scenario. That character would be very easy.

So if you want to judge how difficult a character is, I recommend taking factors like the above into account.

Final note: don't confuse viability with difficulty. When discussing difficulty, we assume a character has the tools to be viable, and then we discuss what the requirements are for using those tools. You don't say a video game is difficult because there's a segment with a wall that you can't pass and so the game can't be finished; you simply say "the game can't be finished," and you're done with it.
your out of your element.

There's no objective scale for difficulty (actually there are about 5 half-articulated ones, which KirbyKaze points out) so this discussion is actually not about "which character is the hardest," but more, "define difficulty in such a way to make your skill seem impressive."

In any competitive context I like to argue that all the top players try as hard as they can, it would be ridiculous to suggest that Dr. PeePee thinks more or pays more attention or has a task more difficult to execute than, say, Armada, based on their chosen characters...they're serious and dedicated players, both, and they certainly have different but similarly difficult (hella difficult) tasks.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
You really didn't respond to anything I said, did you? No, no you didn't.

I think I summed up "objective scales for difficulty" in all of my elements of difficulty pretty well. A one-frame link in SF is more difficult to execute than a thirty-frame link would be. As timing windows shrink, margin for error decreases, and difficulty increases.

Risk factor tells you how many errors you can make in a scenario before taking a substantial loss. A character whose edgeguards are very risky--screw up and die--is BY DEFAULT harder to edgeguard with than a character with the same potential, but less risk. If that character also had smaller windows for success, required faster decision making, etc., then the difficulty to edgeguard with that character would be further amplified, from as objective a standpoint as you can create.

You didn't even address option coverage; choosing between two options within a limited time window is much more reliable than choosing between five, and most likely has less margin for error. That is to say, it's easier. Less difficult. If you argue with this, you're wrong. Tech-chasing with Peach's d-smash is way easier than tech-chasing with Mewtwo's. There's no comparison. One lasts forever, reaches farther, comes out faster, the other one is slow as balls with a specific range.

Your last sentence is utter fluff and basically verbal fellatio to pro players in an attempt to avoid making a meaningful statement. I can easily think of something that takes less effort for PP than for Armada. It's a lot easier for Falco to get a good b-air edgeguard against a Fox's up+b in most cases than it is for Peach. Why? Because Falco's b-air has more range and he can use invincible ledge-hops to do it. It's way easier to time because you'll get invincibility and be less likely to get hit by the up+b. Peach requires closer timing, increasing the risk factor of a failed edgeguard if you end up eating the fire-fox damage. So, all that taken into account, Falco's task of b-airing a Fox or Falco's up+b is much easier than Peach's.

The overall sum of these difficulties across all situations determines how difficult a character is to play. You are saying "no situation is more or less difficult than another," which is stupid.

You COULD have said that different player talents and inherent abilities complement different tasks in different ways, making the difficulty more subjective. But you didn't.
 

john!

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
8,063
Location
The Garden of Earthly Delights
i still don't understand why people are trying to hypothesize answers to this question. everyone is biased due to their natural inclination towards certain characters and their experiences playing this game. the only way a question like this can be objectively answered is by looking at tournament usage and results.
same with the tier list
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
i still don't understand why people are trying to hypothesize answers to this question. everyone is biased due to their natural inclination towards certain characters and their experiences playing this game. the only way a question like this can be objectively answered is by looking at tournament usage and results.
same with the tier list
I am glad we can easily ignore the things I posted and, rather than respond to them individually, just say "NOPE CAN'T BE DONE."
 

n1000

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
283
Location
ABQ
You really didn't respond to anything I said, did you? No, no you didn't.
Excuse me, I meant "your out of your element" in that you made a coherent intelligent post in such a thread! :)

I was being intentionally obtuse but I didn't mean to single you out for your content (which is why my post didn't respond to any of your points) but rather your form. My bad.
 

I R MarF

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
716
Location
At my house
Though the post is a bit of a rambling mess, Wobbles is absolutely right.

To expand on/condense some of his points, there are a variety of aspects which factor into making a character difficult to play and you have to consider all of them. For instance, you could argue that Fox requires more technical skill to play than Ganon. But which character has more options and can capitalize off them better? Clearly Fox, and the tier list and tournament results shows this.

TBH, you could catergorize all the individual aspects that comprise character difficulty and get all sorts of results, but if you were to combine them all, just flip the tier list and thats pretty much a solid basis of hardest to easiest.
 
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