Hanenbow's ban is unjustified.

[DMG]

I'm gonna say this one time, and be done with it.


Hanenbow's biggest competitive problem is that it exacerbates mobility issues and immensely buffs characters with great mobility. This is because there is not a lot of even ground room for characters to run, and gameplay shifts more to "hopping" or jumping from area to area to traverse the stage. As a consequence, characters like MK, Wario, G&W, etc get VERY easy wins on a large majority of the cast, while other characters and MU's are significantly shifted towards the character with more mobility.



Unless you want to make a rule that says you cannot run away from your opponent, this stage shall forever (and correctly) remain banned.

Good day.

 

[Tesh]

Yea but...you can do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_0nMb0t2z4

 

[WindMajor]

Hanenbow is the best stage in the game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Other than Mario Bros.

 

[Ghostbone]

Anyways... I personally think this stage should be legal. I can catch people on Hanenbow with Dedede.

Which for those who don't know is the overall slowest character in the game.

But he has multiple jumps and large range on many moves, so his approach options aren't as telegraphed and easy to avoid as other characters.

 

[ぱみゅ]

^That's the clear proof that we all are just theory-crafting.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

I don't understand why the stage giving characters with high mobility an easier time as a legit reason to ban hanenbow? As you could simply ban it to avoid your opponent from CPing it. The stage helps characters deal with characters like falco if they try to laser camp and D3's CG's aren't as effect on that stage.

 

[DMG]

Because it benefits them so significantly that they get FREEEEEEE wins vs a large majority of the cast and the absolute strongest strategy on this stage is to get the lead and run away. AND it helps you do so by a margin that is borderline or completely impossible to stop.

You don't allow stages like that onto the stage list. Ever. There is no justification for allowing it. Even if you add a stage ban, what does that translate into? Banning the stage. I mean what's the point of adding banned stages to the stage list if you have to counter balance it with additional stage bans anyways? Would just turn into using your stage bans to make sure Hyrule isn't left legal or 75M doesn't make an appearance.

But it's ok. I realize no sane person could pose a serious question like that so late into this. That someone out there randomly cares about Hanenbow and thinks it should be legal because "What's the worst that could happen?" lol. But now you know. So begone, KNAVVVVEEEEEEE

 

[army man]

Hanenbow in my opinion ,which is just an opinion, is a cheap level because it gives the aerial comboers(that's not a word) or characters with good or newby aerials a advantage and you can fall through the stage after up b-ing

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

~

Anyways, while I haven't personally tested it, I could defiantly see high mobility being an issue for many characters to deal with. I dunno if it is a true circle or not but it's enough to be difficult to deal with it seems.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yea but...you can do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_0nMb0t2z4

That was beautiful.

Anyway, if run-away camping really is a problem on this stage (and I'm not saying it is), wouldn't Pikachu also be pretty good at it with his QACing?

And against the slower characters, Peach could be really annoying. Just floating from the bottom left to the bottom right, then dsmashing when your opponent gets close like a lil' *****.

 

[Kantrip]

Hanenbow's ban is unjustified, but not unwarranted.

 

[DMG]

I just ****ing justified it

Go home

Hell, when the stage was BANNED originally, it wasn't because "Eww icky platforms" but "Oh damn catching people on here is gonna be a problem".

 

[ぱみゅ]

Problem, DMG, is that words alone are not a solid justification.

Yours are strong and have a lot of sense.
They are, still, just words.

Aaaaaand, this lead us into another problem: nobody wanting to test these words...
Justified or not, it will STILL be banned.

 

[DMG]

...

It's been tested lol.

 

[WindMajor]

You can eat up a lot of time, but you can't remain unhittable for prolonged periods of time.

Testing should've shown that.

 

[DMG]

Actually you can be unhittable for prolonged periods of time. I would know, I play Wario.

 

[WindMajor]

And I play Toon Link.

It's not that hard to catch up to runners. The layout allows you to waste time, but there are locations where it's easy to catch up to the runner, precisely corners.

 

[DMG]

why are you running to the corner? Stupid Run elsewhere

 

[WindMajor]

Where precisely are you thinking of running then? As far as I'm concerned, staying in one place means you're gonna get hit, so you gotta keep on moving around, and between the awkward positioning of platforms and the mechanics of the platforms themselves, it's not that difficult for the opponent to catch up to you every once in a while.

 

[san.]

IMO it's not circle camping, but straight up hardcore camping. You can catch someone for a possible like 10% or so from an aerial, but then they just run away some more.

 

[z00ted]

Why do people make these threads?

 

[Coney]

GET HYPE

also i find it heartwarming that some of the most respected and renowned members of this community came together to talk about a stage like ****ing hanenbow

also you will never, ever, ever catch wario on hanenbow. bike away from stage, jump once, jump twice, airdodge continuously until jumps are magically refreshed

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

A lot of stages were tested, just trust us.

I know I tested questionables, heck I would have had replays of Mario Bros. circle camping if my Laptop's old hardrive didn't die . To prove it was broken.

 

[DMG]

GET HYPE

also i find it heartwarming that some of the most respected and renowned members of this community came together to talk about a stage like ****ing hanenbow

also you will never, ever, ever catch wario on hanenbow. bike away from stage, jump once, jump twice, airdodge continuously until jumps are magically refreshed

MK can catch him

but now try catching MK

see, these mortals didn't think about that

 

[Grim Tuesday]

A lot of stages were tested, just trust us.

I know I tested questionables, heck I would have had replays of Mario Bros. circle camping if my Laptop's old hardrive didn't die . To prove it was broken.

You cannot, I repeat CANNOT circle camp on Mario Bros.

Avoiding the pink side-steppers and the player is too difficult to do for extended periods of time. If you do manage to do it, then you deserve any advantage you get from it (sort-of like how we don't ban Ganondorf from camping).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You cannot, I repeat CANNOT circle camp on Mario Bros.

Avoiding the pink side-steppers and the player is too difficult to do for extended periods of time. If you do manage to do it, then you deserve any advantage you get from it (sort-of like how we don't ban Ganondorf from camping).

Yes you can, I will not argue in this thread about the subject.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's fine, we won't argue here.

But until I see video evidence of it happening, I'm gonna keep believing it's impossible.

 

[FoxFireMage]

This thread is still active? Why is this arena even being discussed at this point?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because there is nothing wrong with it in the majority of match-ups.

 

[DMG]

Uh

the ****?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Falco vs. Diddy Kong.
Diddy Kong vs. Diddy Kong.
Olimar vs. Falco
Olimar vs. Diddy Kong
Marth vs. Falco
Marth vs. Diddy Kong
Marth vs. Olimar
Snake vs. Diddy Kong
Snake vs. Falco
Snake vs. Snake
Olimar vs. Snake
Pikachu vs. Snake
Pikachu vs. Diddy Kong
Pikachu vs. Falco
Pikachu vs. Olimar

I can keep going, if you want.

 

[Tesh]

yep, thats most of the matchups

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can keep going, if you want.

Basically... All of the high mobility characters can fight each other, all of the low mobility characters can fight each other and all of the mid-mobility characters can fight low and high mobility characters.

That = Majority of match-ups.

 

[DMG]

Falco vs. Diddy Kong.
Diddy Kong vs. Diddy Kong. Ditto MU. No one gives a ****
Olimar vs. Falco
Olimar vs. Diddy Kong Olimar Loses dawg. Forcing him to JUMP to move around? cmon
Marth vs. Falco Marth wins
Marth vs. Diddy Kong
Marth vs. Olimar
Snake vs. Diddy Kong
Snake vs. Falco Oh good job dawg finding 1 top tier MU that "might" look normal
Snake vs. Snake Ditto MU.
Olimar vs. Snake
Pikachu vs. Snake Pikachu wins. Are you even trying?
Pikachu vs. Diddy Kong
Pikachu vs. Falco
Pikachu vs. Olimar

I can keep going, if you want.

Ok.

Character dittos: Scratch those off the list. Don't be dumb.

Diddy vs Olimar: How does Olimar catch Diddy if he runs away? Olimar HAS to jump to get around the stage. Which limits his options on how to respond to Diddy by a significant margin. Shield grab... gone. Smash attacks... limited. Aerials... kinda poopoo. Side B? Shield. Pikmin miss, you move on with your life.

Pikachu vs Snake: How does Snake catch Pika again? QAC around the stage like a little ******.

IC's vs Wario: ****in LOL

Wario vs most of the cast: ****in LOL

MK vs most of the cast: SUPER ****in LOL

G^W vs most of the cast: semi lol








This stage is not healthy for competitive play. You can tell yourself all you want that Falco vs Dedede "ain't that bad dawg" while ignoring the massive MU spread shifts due to this large amount of space that cannot be covered well by the lesser mobility characters leading to very obvious extremities in gameplay.


Edit: Also, that statement about the stage being fine because "mobility" classes can compete with each other doesn;t matter.

Hyrule Temple. Not a broken stage IF Luigi vs Ivysaur happens. Or MK vs Sonic. Or Ganon vs Zelda. But what happens when you throw MK or Sonic or X high mobility character against anyone NOT high mobility? They get *****. Why? Because the stage favors that immensely. Is that good? Hell no.

When you talk about stages, you DON'T look at them and go "Hey Peach vs DK looks fine here." You look at the gayest characters and strats and see if they are acceptable assuming people are using them. No one gives a **** about Hanenbow should be legal cause mother ****ing ROB can handle his **** if the other guy isn't playing a character that will **** him. But do people give a **** about going MK Wario G^W or XYZ character that is faster and more mobile against you? Yes, because doing that breaks the stage in a competitive way.

 

[MechaWave]

Edit: Also, that statement about the stage being fine because "mobility" classes can compete with each other doesn;t matter.

But the majority of the argument revolves around that. Now it doesn't matter?

 

[DMG]

Two different things.


The argument for banning the stage is that high mobility characters get significant advantages on the rest of the cast (while also warping MU's between themselves) to the point where gameplay dumbs down into getting the lead and running away (and doing so while being given safety/room from the stage)



The argument against it as he put it, was that it's not too bad because MU's between characters in their own mobility classes aren't too bad. This however neglects scenarios where you pick a character that's incredibly strong on the stage. If 2 mid characters duke it out here, sure you have the chance at a fairly normal MU. Nothing "that gay". But the instant you pick a better character, MU's across the board shift significantly SIGNIFICANTLY upwards in their favor and significantly downwards for everyone else.


For stage legality, you don't base it off of "Well does DK vs ROB look like a non skewed MU here?" if you have a blatant issue of "Well MK Wario G^W + friends basically beat out the rest of the cast and trade wins/evens/losses with each other". Or an issue where you pick that mid character and someone picks a character that normally has a hard time with the MU, who now wins SOLELY due to the fact that their mobility is good enough that you can't reasonably stop them with the lead. Or even MU's that now become hard counters or close to impossible to win just because you either cannot catch the other person or have to put yourself in such a disadvantage position in the first place to reach them.


TL:DR

No one cares about clearly inferior character picks/strategies used when it comes to stage legality because you miss out on looking at what's really strong/the strongest thing to do and judging whether it is too much or not. And in the event that the strategy is too good, you don't say "Oh well these other things are ok". The stage is effectively ruined at that point (barring stuff we've limited or tried to regulate like scrooging/planking/that kind of stuff. You can certainly take another look at stages with rules like that in place) and you simply cannot salvage it with "the good stuff". All it takes is 1 bad apple to spoil it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why do we say that Hanenbow is a bad stage, instead of saying that Snake is a bad character for getting camped?

 

[Ghostbone]

Because it's unique to Hanenbow.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Temple and New Pork City would like to have a word with you.