Greninja and Sheik are redundant. Palutena and Zelda have the same problem.

[Quillion]

First, I want to say that I like all of these characters as characters. But honestly, I can't really see any reason to have the pair of Greninja and Sheik and the pair of Palutena and Zelda coexisting in Smash. These pairs are redundant due to a combination of aesthetics and function.

I know Greninja is at least on par with Blaziken in being one of the most popular post-Gen I starters, but we really do not need two speedy ninjas in the roster; we already have Sheik, isn't that good enough? Palutena was once unique from the newly-split Zelda back in Smash 4 thanks to her fully unique customs. But now that she has lost that gimmick, she's just another tall graceful spellcaster like Zelda.

I honestly think one character in each pair should be cut. I don't care which in each pair. We can have either Greninja or Sheik, but not both. We can have either Zelda or Palutena, but not both.

As a (dis)honorable mention, I would also like to note that I also consider Bowser's Smash 4-on portrayal and Incineroar to be fairly redundant as well. But to fix this, we can keep Incineroar the way it is while revert Bowser to his Melee/Brawl animations (NOTE: animations, not whole moveset).

Before you say "clones" or "echoes", I like most of them since they're primarily done just to save development time. Developing a character from scratch just to have them be similar to another character is just a waste of development time no matter how you slice it.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Fox and Captain Falcon are mad redundant too. Showboating comboing pilots with rushdown capabilities and high fall speeds? Weirdly redundant.

K. Rool and Dedede are both heavyweights with a focus on trapping with their projectiles. Honestly they should rework Dedede.

DK and Bowser are the same character. Fast heavyweights with a focus on grappling? Been there, done that.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

As a (dis)honorable mention, I would also like to note that I also consider Bowser's Smash 4-on portrayal and Incineroar to be fairly redundant as well. But to fix this, we can keep Incineroar the way it is while revert Bowser to his Melee/Brawl animations (NOTE: animations, not whole moveset).

What the hell are you talking about? How do you equate a charismatic wrestling heel to a roaring hunched-back beast?

There's over 80 character in this game, ofc there's gonna be overlap. NASB has 20 characters and there's overlap there "Ren & Stimpy are a dog-cat slapstick duo, so are CatDog!", Melee has 26 and there's overlap there "Why do we need psychic Mewtwo when we have psychic Ness?"; hell even Rivals of Aether with just 14 characters has overlap "Orcane and Etalus are both water-themed quadrupeds, you gotta cut one!"

 

[Quillion]

Fox and Captain Falcon are mad redundant too. Showboating comboing pilots with rushdown capabilities and high fall speeds? Weirdly redundant.

But Fox focuses on speedy (and sometimes surprisingly strong) moves all around while tacking on bits of damage with his blaster, while Falcon mixes between weak moves with little windup and strong moves with some windup.

K. Rool and Dedede are both heavyweights with a focus on trapping with their projectiles. Honestly they should rework Dedede.

At least K. Rool has two projectiles and a conventional recovery while Dedede has only one projectile and relies on multi-jumping and his jump-and-dive recovery in a pinch.

DK and Bowser are the same character. Fast heavyweights with a focus on grappling? Been there, done that.

Actually, that is a problem I do have with Bowser's Smash 4-on portrayal and DK, especially their shared deceptively fast mobility. But since a lot of people want Bowser to remain fast, I'm willing to compromise with Bowser reverting to his Melee/Brawl animations but keeping his speed.

What the hell are you talking about? How do you equate a charismatic wrestling heel to a roaring hunched-back beast?

Because they're both fire-using wrestlers. At least Bowser's good ground mobility distinguishes him from Incineroar's bad ground mobility. And I WISH Bowser was back to being more hunched like in Melee and Brawl instead of his current upright Smash portrayal. I've had this opinion since Smash 4.

There's over 80 character in this game, ofc there's gonna be overlap. NASB has 20 characters and there's overlap there "Ren & Stimpy are a dog-cat slapstick duo, so are CatDog!", Melee has 26 and there's overlap there "Why do we need psychic Mewtwo when we have psychic Ness?"; hell even Rivals of Aether with just 14 characters has overlap "Orcane and Etalus are both water-themed quadrupeds, you gotta cut one!"

I'm not too familiar with those other platform fighters, but at least Mewtwo is a big body lightweight with animations that emphasize little physicality while Ness is a small body mid-lightweight with a surprising amount of physicality.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Ridley and Charizard? You gotta be kidding me, no way we can have 2 dragons in the game!

Jokes aside, I don’t think its a big deal to have multiple charcters of the same archetype. I mean both characters play differently in execution and are wanted for their personality and actually being the characters from the game.

For instance, it’d be a shame to deny someone like Scorpion for being a fighting game character who uses fire like Ken. Or even because he might be a fighting game villain with a command grab like Kazuya.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Because they're both fire-using wrestlers. At least Bowser's good ground mobility distinguishes him from Incineroar's bad ground mobility. And I WISH Bowser was back to being more hunched like in Melee and Brawl instead of his current upright Smash portrayal. I've had this opinion since Smash 4.

You know there's different types of wresting, right? And also than Bowser doesn't really fall into any of them?

 

[Quillion]

Ridley and Charizard? You gotta be kidding me, no way we can have 2 dragons in the game!

Jokes aside, I don’t think its a big deal to have multiple charcters of the same archetype. I mean both characters play differently in execution and are wanted for their personality and actually being the characters from the game.

For instance, it’d be a shame to deny someone like Scorpion for being a fighting game character who uses fire like Ken. Or even because he might be a fighting game villain with a command grab like Kazuya.

Honestly, I don't think there would be a place for Ridley if Charizard remained split as it did in Smash 4. At least now, Charizard is back tied to Squirtle and Ivysaur, while Ridley has to fight on his own.

And at least Scorpion isn't really a shoto like Ken; he's got his rope spear and warp punch among other things.

You know there's different types of wresting, right? And also than Bowser doesn't really fall into any of them?

Yeah, but Smash 4-on Bowser and Incineroar are specifically based on professional "fake" wrestling. Do you think it's really a coincidence that both Incineroar and Bowser have dropkicks?

 

[dream1ng]

If you have this grievance against Palutena and Zelda I don't want to be nearby when you discover the blue-haired portion of the roster...

 

[Quillion]

If you have this grievance against Palutena and Zelda I don't want to be nearby when you discover the blue-haired portion of the roster...

Before you say "clones" or "echoes", I like most of them since they're primarily done just to save development time. Developing a character from scratch just to have them be similar to another character is just a waste of development time no matter how you slice it.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Honestly, I don't think there would be a place for Ridley if Charizard remained split as it did in Smash 4. At least now, Charizard is back tied to Squirtle and Ivysaur, while Ridley has to fight on his own.

And at least Scorpion isn't really a shoto like Ken; he's got his rope spear and warp punch among other things.

Okay, but why is it such a big issue that we should be denying characters simply because they share similarities?

Should we be cutting Luigi because he looks and has a lot of similarities with Mario? Should Jigglypuff be cut because their floaty, pink, and round like Kirby?

Take the Ridley example again. Just because Pokemon only got to keep Charizard, why should Metroid have to lose such a beloved and important character like Ridley?

This simply isn’t a very big issue imo.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Palutena is fine and Zelda is fine. Just more options for people who prefer one light-casting floaty goddess over the other. Not sure why that’s a bad thing.

If it was about the over-abundance of JRPG characters, than yeah. Makes sense. If it’s about the sheer amount of blue/haired swordsman, point taken. If it’s about how there are more third party characters and that’s bad; I don’t agree but I see your point and find it’s a valid response.

This. This feels like 100% a non-issue.

You can apply this logic to have if the roster and that’s what I’m seeing be done here - and in a sarcastic, non-serious manner.

 

[dream1ng]

Quillion
Not all of them are clones...

And by the reasoning of shared thematics, you could tie together large swaths of the roster. It's quite deliberately looking past the uniqueness of the character to focus on tropes. For instance, why add Banjo when we already have a speedy animal mascot platformer? Why add Terry when there's already fighting game character who uses traditional inputs?

The first reply already contended with this, and you replied with differences between the characters like you couldn't also do that with your examples.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Palutena and Zelda do play very differently though - Palutena tends to focus more with extended her reach and maximizing her space while Zelda is more defensive with a majority of attacks being close to her. She lacks the reach that Palutena boasts in a lot of her. Greninja and Sheik also differ greatly; especially when Greninja’s superior jumping abilities. Shiek is all about quick and fast moves while Greninja is more about multiple hits, pressuring, and setting up traps using Substitute and Shadow Sneak.

On the outside, they may seem overly similar but under the hood, very very different.

Arguments like this is why people derided Mega Man before his reveal as he would be too similar to Samus, Ridley being too similar to Charizard, King K Rool being too similar to Bowser, and Ryu being too similar to Little Mac.

 

[Quillion]

Okay, but why is it such a big issue that we should be denying characters simply because they share similarities?

Should we be cutting Luigi because he looks and has a lot of similarities with Mario? Should Jigglypuff be cut because their floaty, pink, and round like Kirby?

Luigi is a half-clone, though (in the sense that they share about half their normals and specials), so they're just saving development time with him.

Kirby has surprisingly bad air mobility, the copy ability gimmick, and a few weapons while Jigglypuff is practically air air and completely barehanded.

Take the Ridley example again. Just because Pokemon only got to keep Charizard, why should Metroid have to lose such a beloved and important character like Ridley?

Because Smash is a fighting game first and foremost and a Nintendo museum second. Same reason why Street Fighter will never have Dan and Sean on the same roster.

Palutena is fine and Zelda is fine. Just more options for people who prefer one light-casting floaty goddess over the other. Not sure why that’s a bad thing.

Being graceful, feminine spellcasters is one thing, but both have a distant exploding fire cast, a reflector, and a teleport. And both are floaty and light. It's not just one thing; it's a combination of various things that make them redundant, especially since Palutena had to lose her Mii-like customs out of necessity.

Quillion
Not all of them are clones...

And by the reasoning of shared thematics, you could tie together large swaths of the roster. It's quite deliberately looking past the uniqueness of the character to focus on tropes. For instance, why add Banjo when we already have a speedy animal mascot platformer? Why add Terry when there's already fighting game character who uses traditional inputs?

The first reply already contended with this, and you replied with differences between the characters like you couldn't also do that with your examples.

Palutena and Zelda do play very differently though - Palutena tends to focus more with extended her reach and maximizing her space while Zelda is more defensive with a majority of attacks being close to her. She lacks the reach that Palutena boasts in a lot of her. Greninja and Sheik also differ greatly; especially when Greninja’s superior jumping abilities. Shiek is all about quick and fast moves while Greninja is more about multiple hits, pressuring, and setting up traps using Substitute and Shadow Sneak.

On the outside, they may seem overly similar but under the hood, very very different.

Both pairs still step on each other's toes way too much. I honestly think you're magnifying very subtle differences in both pairs of redundancy.

I explained Palutena and Zelda up above, but Sheik and Greninja have some uncomfortable similarities beyond just being ninjas; they both have a vanish move, deceptively long-range forward aerial poke, an upwards drill kick, a rapid jab, a chargeable projectile, and a "spread wings" up Smash among other things.

Arguments like this is why people derided Mega Man before his reveal as he would be too similar to Samus, Ridley being too similar to Charizard, King K Rool being too similar to Bowser, and Ryu being too similar to Little Mac.

These were honestly valid concerns. Again, Smash is a fighting game first and a Nintendo/video game museum second, so filling a niche is a greater concern than having iconic characters for the sake of having them.

Thankfully, they largely made these newer characters unique from the characters they would be compared to.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Luigi is a half-clone, though (in the sense that they share about half their normals and specials), so they're just saving development time with him.

So if Luigi, one of the most popular Video Game characters out there, wasn’t a semi clone of Mario you’d want him cut?

This sounds like the whole “Characters are just Functions” argument from MVCI again. Fact is, people hated the argument then, people hate it now.

Ridley shouldn’t be cut because a character who plays nothing like him but looks similar exists, that is needlessly arbitrary imo.

Also, didn’t 3rd Strike have like 4 characters in Shoto outfits? Don’t think Capcom would be all that opposed to Dan and Sean.

 

[Quillion]

So if Luigi, one of the most popular Video Game characters out there, wasn’t a semi clone of Mario you’d want him cut?

Depends; if he ended up having the same stats and a lot of the same move purposes like an all-purpose b-air, a meteor f-air, an f-Smash you want to hit the sweetspot on, but with different animations, yes that would be a waste and he wouldn't be in. But if he had different stats and purposes to those moves, then no.

This sounds like the whole “Characters are just Functions” argument from MVCI again. Fact is, people hated the argument then, people hate it now.

There is some reason to it. For example, discounting his controversial cloning decision, Ganondorf wouldn't be in Melee if his special set were based on his OoT fight involving charging projectiles and reflecting them plus borrowing Phantom Ganon's shadow portal for a teleport. That would step on Mewtwo's toes too much.

 

[CheeseAnton]

Because Smash is a fighting game first and foremost and a Nintendo museum second

Aren't Echoes direct evidence against this idea (at least in the mindset of Nintendo).

I know what you said about Echoes/Clones

Before you say "clones" or "echoes", I like most of them since they're primarily done just to save development time. Developing a character from scratch just to have them be similar to another character is just a waste of development time no matter how you slice it.

But what you need to know is they don't really save development time, to look at Sakurai's Famitsu Colum Vol. 561

Echo Fighters

Chrom from the Fire Emblem series and Dark Samus from the Metroid series are also joining the fray. I received many requests for both fighters from people in Japan and overseas, respectively.

Echo fighters aren’t simple reskins. First, we give them their own taunts and victory animations. Then, we adjust their abilities and parameters as necessary. Many people also overlook the artwork. Each piece features a given character in their standing pose, and each one undergoes a slew of tiny revisions–but it doesn’t end there. We then have to create a total of eight palette swaps for those artworks. I don’t think there are many other games that feature artwork that changes colors like that.

Despite taking up loads of development time, the team still gives us characters like Daisy and Dark Samus. They aren't development filler, they nearly take as much time as an actual character, just maybe without the process of the team figuring out a moveset. Daisy and Dark Samus aren't in Ultimate because they were easy to add, they were added because people loved them and wanted them in the game so the team worked to make it happen. This what proves to me they think of this game as Nintendo Museum first, fighting game second, so having loved characters like Greninja and Palutena absolutely makes sense. As long as Nintendo fans want them, they should stay.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Depends; if he ended up having the same stats and a lot of the same move purposes like an all-purpose b-air, a meteor f-air, an f-Smash you want to hit the sweetspot on, but with different animations, yes that would be a waste and he wouldn't be in. But if he had different stats and purposes to those moves, then no.

Here in lies where we mainly disagree, and where you officially become “based.”

To put it simply, people really like Luigi. And to hear that he wouldn’t be in the game for something almost none of the fans actually care about sounds dumb. I’d be livid if Ridley was excluded simply because we had Charizard. And I’m sure Palutena and Greninja fans wouldn’t be stoked at the prospect of being told “But Zelda and Shiek (two characters with different history’s and movesets) are right there!”

There is some reason to it. For example, discounting his controversial cloning decision, Ganondorf wouldn't be in Melee if his special set were based on his OoT fight involving charging projectiles and reflecting them plus borrowing Phantom Ganon's shadow portal for a teleport. That would step on Mewtwo's toes too much.

Wait, so if the team saw Ganondorf Charging Projectiles and using Shadow Teleports as stepping on Mewtwos shoes, why would their reaction be to make him a clone of Falcon? Since that is one of the most blatant examples of a character stepping on another’s shoes?

Also Ganondorf is stated to have been a last minute inclusion whos moveset only happened because his Model fit over Captain Falcons skeleton and worked with his animations. Seemingly nothing to do with his actual potential moveset.

There really isn’t much reason to the argument in mosts eyes, even Capcom didn’t seem to believe it.

 

[Quillion]

But what you need to know is they don't really save development time, to look at Sakurai's Famitsu Colum Vol. 561

I acknowledge that they need some development time, but Sakurai also explicitly stated that by necessity, the Smash 4 clones had to be made without increasing "the required man-hours." So they do save time on programming or, as you said, moveset design. Some do have more work than others, I'll give you that.

To put it simply, people really like Luigi. And to hear that he wouldn’t be in the game for something almost none of the fans actually care about sounds dumb. I’d be livid if Ridley was excluded simply because we had Charizard. And I’m sure Palutena and Greninja fans wouldn’t be stoked at the prospect of being told “But Zelda and Shiek, two characters with different history’s and movesets are right there!”

Hey, you win some, you lose some with fans no matter what you do in anything ever. The crowd is a fickle bunch.

It's best to do things in terms of Smash's overall design in itself rather than pleasing the fans. Trying to please everyone will never work.

Wait, so if the team saw Ganondorf Charging Projectiles and using Shadow Teleports as stepping on Mewtwos shoes, why would their reaction be to make him a clone of Falcon? Since that is one of the most blatant examples of a character stepping on another’s shoes?

Also Ganondorf is stated to have been a last minute inclusion whos moveset only happened because his Model fit over Captain Falcons skeleton and worked with his animations. Seemingly nothing to do with his actual potential moveset.

There really isn’t much reason to the argument in mosts eyes, even Capcom didn’t seem to believe it.

Yes, they made Falcondorf in order to save development time while adding a last-minute character, but they managed to make him use Falcon's moves in a very different way from the template. It was a win for the developers because they saved time and a win for the fans since they got another character that plays very differently.

Honestly, given how Ganon in any form is an Orcus on His Throne who could sunder the world singlehanded if he weren't so lazy, I wouldn't be surprised that the reason why he was last-minute was because the devs couldn't think of a proper moveset that could fit into Smash's limitations. It would be the same reason why Villager and Ridley took such a while to become fighters. And even if Ganondorf were still a later addition and had more planning that way, they still would have to make major sacrifices in his moveset so that he isn't stupidly powerful. Look at how Meta Knight couldn't get his sword beam or giant Tornado since those moves would be incredibly outlandish both in the context of his speedy design and the overall mechanics of Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

its only two ninjas on a roster of 80+ who play rather differently. surely you should be complaining about all speedy characters? thats the main thing these two have in common and this surely applies to more characters

 

[Quillion]

its only two ninjas on a roster of 80+ who play rather differently. surely you should be complaining about all speedy characters? thats the main thing these two have in common and this surely applies to more characters

It's not just their speed. It's the combination of that and several other things such as their ninja aesthetic as well as similar uses AND animations for moves that share inputs.

 

[fogbadge]

It's not just their speed. It's the combination of that and several other things such as their ninja aesthetic as well as similar uses AND animations for moves that share inputs.

ok. but why is this worse than the other similar characters?

 

[Quillion]

ok. but why is this worse than the other similar characters?

Because, clones/echoes aside, no other character intrudes on each other's niche the way Greninja and Sheik do on each other's and a customs-less Palutena and Zelda do on each other's. Heck, there are clones that intrude on their template's niche less than those two pairs do, such as Mario and Doc.

Again, clones save time, so the similarities are justifiable. A ground-up moveset being similar to another is definitely a waste of resources.

 

[fogbadge]

Because, clones/echoes aside, no other character intrudes on each other's niche the way Greninja and Sheik do on each other's and a customs-less Palutena and Zelda do on each other's. Heck, there are clones that intrude on their template's niche less than those two pairs do, such as Mario and Doc.

Again, clones save time, so the similarities are justifiable. A ground-up moveset being similar to another is definitely a waste of resources.

Right

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

When you go to a sandwich restaurant, they don’t have one type of sandwich but will have several types…sometimes variations of an existing one. There may be a ham and cheese sandwich but with different check variations. It would be silly to walk into the place and expecting that only one kind of sandwich would be offered because, at their basis, they are all sandwiches. More options are better and they includes options that are derivative of something else that’s on the menu but, perhaps, someone prefers that over the other.

Palutena and Zelda may share a distantly connected basis along with Greninja and Shiek and some overlap in movesets but, trust me, there are people who prefer one over the other. That can be regarding movesets, stats, frame data, competitive viability, series preference, matchups, appearances, smash series PE reference (melee enthusiasts who prefers Melee over 4 or people who started playing Smash with Smash 4 and not Melee) or any combination of those.

I used to be a Zelda main before moving to Zamus but I also like playing Palutena due to her dual counter, her homing projectile, spacing projectile, and her attack reach but sometimes I sometimes call back to Zelda’s more defensive style with the reflecting shield that doubles as an attack, controllable projectile, and the utilization of the Knight. Same goes with Shiek and Greninja; they both have a projectile that behaves very different. Shiek had a trap projectile that pulls in opponents for the blast while Greninja has some that can is used for both movement and attacks, and also has an iconic counter that’s important to the Pokemon franchise while Shiek has her command kick. From the outside, there are sinarilties but they are all completely different under the hood. Then looking through the wider community, it’s obvious there are those who have preferences and allowing options for these people to freely choose is a good thing. Removing those options or denying people to play who they enjoy is bad.

Going back to my original analogy, customers would be angry if there was a few sandwich varieties but only one kind of cheese. They lack the freedom to choose what kind they like. Someone wants a ham and cheese sandwich but can’t have provolone but must order swiss cause that’s what’s on the menu. This alienates a certain clientele which eventually hurts your business.

Saying a character shouldn’t be on the roster because of being “too similar” in appearances, moveset, gameplay, etc is the worse kind of gatekeeping in my opinion. It’s what plagued pre-Smash 4 Mega Man discussion and ruined it for many people because some couldn’t look at the wider picture and realize the fallacies that are Mega Man and Samus comparisons.

I firmly believe you are in the wrong on this. More options are better since preferences vary person to person and accommodations should be allowed so that everyone can enjoy the experience. I feel you are solely looking at their appearance, archetype, and moveset without REALLY looking into the depth of the characters and how they differ. There is a reason why Palutena ranks high on tier lists while Zelda is in the bottom and that’s because they are designed very differently.

Now, if you were to say, Palutena/Zelda and Sheik/Greninja should perhaps get a redesign in moveset to differentiate them; I think the thread reception would of been better had you suggested this but stating “they are too alike in appearances/moveset so one should be cut” is why everyone is treating this as a very bad take. And it is honestly. Had you gone that route, I would have been more inclined to agree with you but this thread is a callback to everything that is wrong with the whole argument “x character is to much like y character so they can’t be in the game”. That gets old very fast.

 

[Quillion]

Venus of the Desert Bloom :

While I acknowledge that some people will prefer Greninja over Sheik or vice versa or prefer Zelda over Palutena or vice versa, I honestly believe that it's because those that do have those preferences have only spent so much time with the game that they obsess over the minute differences.

As xkcd #915 puts it, spend enough time with anything with subtle/minute/insignificant differences, and there will be people arguing over those differences:

Going back to Street Fighter, while competitive players would probably play a Street Fighter side game with only Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, Dan, Evil Ryu, Sean, Gouken, Oni, Violent Ken, and Kage out of obligation and see the differences, most would find the game unbelievably stale from the get-go and not buy it.

Additionally, I'm not in favor of redesigning one each in the pairs of Palutena/Zelda and Greninja/Sheik because I can't see any way to redesign any of those characters in such a way that it makes sense with their character and origins. Redesigning any of those characters to differentiate them would go far beyond a Ganondorf/Wario situation.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Venus of the Desert Bloom :

While I acknowledge that some people will prefer Greninja over Sheik or vice versa or prefer Zelda over Palutena or vice versa, I honestly believe that it's because those that do have those preferences have only spent so much time with the game that they obsess over the minute differences.

As xkcd #915 puts it, spend enough time with anything with subtle/minute/insignificant differences, and there will be people arguing over those differences:

Going back to Street Fighter, while competitive players would probably play a Street Fighter side game with only Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, Dan, Evil Ryu, Sean, Gouken, Oni, Violent Ken, and Kage out of obligation and see the differences, most would find the game unbelievably stale from the get-go and not buy it.

Additionally, I'm not in favor of redesigning one each in the pairs of Palutena/Zelda and Greninja/Sheik because I can't see any way to redesign any of those characters in such a way that it makes sense with their character and origins. Redesigning any of those characters to differentiate them would go far beyond a Ganondorf/Wario situation.

That’s not a viable argument to gatekeep/block a character based on skin-deep assumptions based on character origins/appearances/moveset.

The issue with your argument is that there is a wide range of spectrum within the Smash community on how one views a character that’s not limited to “appearances or movesets”. As I said before, some people value the roster based on series representation or fulfilling archetypes. Others value the roster competitively. Both are perfectly fine and by the virtue alone, you are welcomed to think Greninja/Sheik and Palutena/Zelda should be removed as they are too similar.

My issue with your opening argument is that a character should be denied playability based on these skin-deep similarities alone without considering the more deeper and important differences underneath. I hate to keep railing on this but this was a common argument in ore-Smash 4 circles and a bit in Ultimate and one then never holds any ground because time and time again, it’s proven wrong. Ridley would play just like Charizard. Rosalina would play just like Peach. Cloud would play just like Ike. Banjo would play just like Duck Hunt. It’s not a coincidence that Sakurai purposefully chose to use Ike and Duck Hunt in reveal trailers for Cloud and Banjo. It’s a very weak argument that was even trolled by Sakurai. If it already hasn’t been buried, it should be by now as an argument or a bygone era.

The differences between Greninja/Shiek and Palutena/Zelda are far from minute and suggesting they are shows a misunderstanding of they were designed mechanically. Indicating they should be cut due to “redundancy” also shows a lack of understanding of their respective communities/supporters which is a huge thing in Smash. Please note also that I haven’t played either of these characters within the past year and I dislike competitive Smash. Regardless, I do know which ones are more competitively viable and have a limited understanding competitive mechanics despite not caring for them in the long run. With that in mind, I can understand that Greninja/Shiek and Zelda/Palutena are fundamentally different.

That being said, I’m surprised you haven’t brought up allusions to Bayonetta and Sora.
Spamable neutral.
Diving down air
Aerial prowess
Highly requested (apparently)
Side special that are multiple dashes and can be used for recovery
Twirling up specials
Basically both being a type of counter

Even then, I’m fine with both of their tool kits.

 

[fogbadge]

When you go to a sandwich restaurant, they don’t have one type of sandwich but will have several types…sometimes variations of an existing one. There may be a ham and cheese sandwich but with different check variations. It would be silly to walk into the place and expecting that only one kind of sandwich would be offered because, at their basis, they are all sandwiches. More options are better and they includes options that are derivative of something else that’s on the menu but, perhaps, someone prefers that over the other.

Palutena and Zelda may share a distantly connected basis along with Greninja and Shiek and some overlap in movesets but, trust me, there are people who prefer one over the other. That can be regarding movesets, stats, frame data, competitive viability, series preference, matchups, appearances, smash series PE reference (melee enthusiasts who prefers Melee over 4 or people who started playing Smash with Smash 4 and not Melee) or any combination of those.

I used to be a Zelda main before moving to Zamus but I also like playing Palutena due to her dual counter, her homing projectile, spacing projectile, and her attack reach but sometimes I sometimes call back to Zelda’s more defensive style with the reflecting shield that doubles as an attack, controllable projectile, and the utilization of the Knight. Same goes with Shiek and Greninja; they both have a projectile that behaves very different. Shiek had a trap projectile that pulls in opponents for the blast while Greninja has some that can is used for both movement and attacks, and also has an iconic counter that’s important to the Pokemon franchise while Shiek has her command kick. From the outside, there are sinarilties but they are all completely different under the hood. Then looking through the wider community, it’s obvious there are those who have preferences and allowing options for these people to freely choose is a good thing. Removing those options or denying people to play who they enjoy is bad.

Going back to my original analogy, customers would be angry if there was a few sandwich varieties but only one kind of cheese. They lack the freedom to choose what kind they like. Someone wants a ham and cheese sandwich but can’t have provolone but must order swiss cause that’s what’s on the menu. This alienates a certain clientele which eventually hurts your business.

Saying a character shouldn’t be on the roster because of being “too similar” in appearances, moveset, gameplay, etc is the worse kind of gatekeeping in my opinion. It’s what plagued pre-Smash 4 Mega Man discussion and ruined it for many people because some couldn’t look at the wider picture and realize the fallacies that are Mega Man and Samus comparisons.

I firmly believe you are in the wrong on this. More options are better since preferences vary person to person and accommodations should be allowed so that everyone can enjoy the experience. I feel you are solely looking at their appearance, archetype, and moveset without REALLY looking into the depth of the characters and how they differ. There is a reason why Palutena ranks high on tier lists while Zelda is in the bottom and that’s because they are designed very differently.

Now, if you were to say, Palutena/Zelda and Sheik/Greninja should perhaps get a redesign in moveset to differentiate them; I think the thread reception would of been better had you suggested this but stating “they are too alike in appearances/moveset so one should be cut” is why everyone is treating this as a very bad take. And it is honestly. Had you gone that route, I would have been more inclined to agree with you but this thread is a callback to everything that is wrong with the whole argument “x character is to much like y character so they can’t be in the game”. That gets old very fast.

people like ham & cheese?

Venus of the Desert Bloom :

i cant tell, is that meant to be funny?

 

[Oddball]

First, I want to say that I like all of these characters as characters. But honestly, I can't really see any reason to have the pair of Greninja and Sheik and the pair of Palutena and Zelda coexisting in Smash.

Because people like them as characters. You just said it yourself.

These pairs are redundant due to a combination of aesthetics and function.

Aesthetics? You think the hunched over ninja frog with the huge tounge looks anything visually like the vaguely Arabic masked girl?

I know Greninja is at least on par with Blaziken in being one of the most popular post-Gen I starters, but we really do not need two speedy ninjas in the roster; we already have Sheik, isn't that good enough?

No.

I honestly think one character in each pair should be cut. I don't care which in each pair. We can have either Greninja or Sheik, but not both. We can have either Zelda or Palutena, but not both.

The people that make Smash Bros disagree with you, and I'm willing to believe they know more about game development than you do.

As a (dis)honorable mention, I would also like to note that I also consider Bowser's Smash 4-on portrayal and Incineroar to be fairly redundant as well. But to fix this, we can keep Incineroar the way it is while revert Bowser to his Melee/Brawl animations (NOTE: animations, not whole moveset).

What do you do? Look at characters and decide that just because there's some very slight vague similiarity in one of the apsects that makes the character then it automatically means they both have to go?

Before you say "clones" or "echoes", I like most of them since they're primarily done just to save development time. Developing a character from scratch just to have them be similar to another character is just a waste of development time no matter how you slice it.

Giving people characters they want is not a waste of time.

Ryu and Dr. Mario have the same basic moves.
Fire ball. Spin attack. Uppercut Jump. Do you think they're too similar? (Note: If you answer "yes" you're wrong and I'm going to ignore anything else you have to say.)

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Honestly, I do agree with "characters as functions" - really, it's just basic game design, that being said having the same weapon, archetype, or theme does not make a character the same as or similar to another, nor does being similar to another mean they shouldn't get in. Functionality should only bar a character if they full on cannot work with Smash (Min Min for example, who even then is the only example I can think of of a mechanically Smash-incompable character in general, though I do know a lot of tonally incompatible requests)

 

[Reksew_Trebla]

I honestly believe that it's because those that do have those preferences have only spent so much time with the game that they obsess over the minute differences

Okay, no, just no. Seriously, you are a flat out liar.

I only played minimally (enough to get the trophies in 3DS) of Smash 4, and didn’t really play much more as i didn’t have anyone to play with, and had other games to play.

As for Ultimate, while I’ve owned it since early 2021, I didn’t even open it until Oct 16 when I decided to give up my idea of saving Smash to be the last game I play since I’m really poor right now and have to save my money to buy a car.

Why does this matter? In the week I’ve been playing, I’ve already noticed a massive difference in gameplay for Greninja/Palutena compared to Sheik/Zelda. They are not similar, at all, in actual gameplay. My 8.7/7.9 on Zelda/Greninja first try Classic mode vs only getting 7.1/7.2 after many tries of failing Classic mode with Palutena/Sheik, speaks well on that, considering I went straight to Classic mode and only did that this whole time to unlock all the characters, and only practiced with them for about 10 minutes beforehand in Training mode.

So yeah, stop lying.

 

[Quillion]

Venus of the Desert Bloom :

I see that you're concerned about me judging by "skin-deep similarities", but I specifically noted that each pair is redundant "due to a combination of aesthetics and function." It's not just themes of appearances or just the functions of their movesets, it's the combination of both appearance and moveset individually and how they come together and interact to create the character. You mentioned that I didn't identify Bayonetta and Sora as a redundant pair, and that's because their different aesthetics interact with their similar movesets very differently, and that's not even getting into how Bayo has very slow finishers to contrast Sora's fast ones and very different falling speeds among other things.

I can also see your point about how certain characters were disregarded by some during the speculation phase of Smash 4 and a bit during Ultimate's speculation phase because of redundancy concerns. But again, even if it has been disproven time and time again, it's still a valid concern. If they had repeated Samus's aesthetic+function combination to kinda shortcut development for Mega Man in spite of otherwise working from the ground up, there will be a vocal group who notices. They would notice even more if they created even more redundant pairs with Duck Hunt and B&K as well as Ridley and Charizard.

Oddball :

Sure, people may like them as characters, but look at Lyn from Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade. She is incredibly beloved as a character; there was a poll that quantified that. But even her fans are resigned to the fact that there's no way to design a hypothetical and canon-compliant Smash moveset for her without intruding on Marth's niche. It's also part of the reason Ganondorf can't get a greater abundance of sword moves plus/or more magic moves including a projectile. That would intrude on the niches of Ike (as heavy sword wielder), Mewtwo (as a big-bodied energy caster), or Sephiroth (giant sword wielder with magic).

To answer your question about Ryu and Doc, no, they're not similar, since Ryu has a standard martial artist aesthetic while Dr. Mario is a doctor in a labcoat. If we're going by movesets alone, if Ryu were no-frills, they would be rather similar, but at least Ryu has his traditional FG combos and command inputs to set the two apart.

 

[Shroob]

This has got to be one of the strangest complaints I've ever seen since that one dude complaining about the blast zone being literally 2 pixels larger than Smash 4's.

 

[fogbadge]

there's no way to design a hypothetical and canon-compliant Smash moveset for her without intruding on Marth's niche.

canon-compliant? in smash?

 

[Shroob]

canon-compliant? in smash?

Yep, pack it up fellas. Smash has never gone against the canon of a series before, no sir.


What, Captain Falcon who?

 

[Oddball]

To answer your question about Ryu and Doc, no, they're not similar, since Ryu has a standard martial artist aesthetic while Dr. Mario is a doctor in a labcoat. If we're going by movesets alone, if Ryu were no-frills, they would be rather similar, but at least Ryu has his traditional FG combos and command inputs to set the two apart.

"Martial arts man and Plumber man are very different but Mysterious Arabic Ninja and Blue frog with huge tongue are too much the same." and "These two characters have a few differences that makes them different enough, also these other two characters also have big differences but they don't count."

Gotcha.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Good lord, this thread is a headache to read

if you want a ridiculous argument, cut the sword fighters because they all “play too similar to each other” or “too many Fire type attackers”.

People will pick a certain character over others who have some overlapping or similarities that best fits their playing style. I choose Roy over Marth for example due to a somewhat faster and harder hitting. Wolf over Fox due to scarificing some speed for power, Greninja over Sheik due to a stronger defense and trapping, etc.

the logics of this thread had gone out the window. Like mentioned above, this is an X is too similar to Y that leaves a bad taste in people’s mouth. And do NOT get me started with the whole Lucario/Mewtwo and Ike/Roy from Brawl…

 

[fogbadge]

btw greninja isnt on par with blaziken. he was named the most popular pokemon of all a couple years back so hes ahead of blaziken and the gen 1 pokemon

 

[Perkilator]

This is like saying Bandana Waddle Dee would be redundant because Byleth already has lance moves even though Byleth's moveset revolves around multiple weapons.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I could also make an argument for Joker and Sheik. Both revolve around swiftness, both have a dark and sneaky aesthetic and a lot of their moves are the same by the virtue of using daggers and overall acrobaticness. Joker’s raison d’être Arsene doesn’t involve much strategy, so you can basically play Joker like Sheik and be rewarded for it with a meter. Arsene in itself doesn’t change how you play, just adds a meter to abuse regardless of your strategy. They even share the poking-projectile Neutral B and their general slippiness as their main draw. They’re much more similar than Greninja and Sheik are, partially because Greninja adds range thanks to his water kunai being positioned in key moves like Forward Air, which gives him his famously low out-of-shield potential which is very different from Sheik’s lightning quick, comboable Forward Aerial. Heck, Joker and Sheik even still share their Up Air.

This is like saying Bandana Waddle Dee would be redundant because Byleth already has lance moves even though Byleth's moveset revolves around multiple weapons.

To be fair, Bandana Dee’s moveset potential aged horribly between all the distance demons that have been added since Smash 4.