Greninja and Sheik are redundant. Palutena and Zelda have the same problem.

[Lenidem]

Why? Why should Smash take the FZ approach as opposed to the BT3 approach? You prefer one but I prefer the other.

I like both, personally. But if Smash had to take the "FighterZ" approach, then I think the selection should be based on who's important, who symbolizes what to Nintendo's or to "video game as a whole" 's history, rather than superficial criteria like "two ninjas = one too many".

 

[11th]

Regarding Sheik/Greninja:
Their forward, up, and down tilts are very different. Forward and down smashes are different. N-Air, F-Air, B-Air, U-Air, and D-Air are different. Their grab pummels are visually distinct, and their throws are different. That only leaves a handful of attacks that are very visually and/or functionally similar, but that's bound to happen when you have a roster of almost 90 fighters. If it's okay for semi-clones to share even more similar animations & hitboxes with their parent, then theses two should be no worse.
(ETA: I forgot to mention their specials, but those are also different.)

Zelda/Palutena:
While I do see more similarities between them than the other two, I feel like you're still dismissing the differences that they do have too quickly. F-Tilt, U-Tilt, F-Smash, U-Smash, D-Smash, N-Air, B-Air (sort of), U-Air, D-Spec, and their throws are all different, as well as how their reflectors work. The similar moves that they do have also have some differences, like S-Spec having different properties despite both being fiery blasts -- Din's Fire is a moving projectile, but Explosive Flame is stationary. Farore's Wind and Warp can be excused somewhat by multiple other fighters also having teleportation recoveries (Sheik, Mewtwo, Meta Knight, and Greninja.), and the types of possible recovery moves being somewhat limited.

Frankly, I think Bandana Waddle Dee would intrude on Meta Knight's niche as a small-bodied weapon wielder with quick strikes. If there was no Meta Knight and just Byleth, things would be fine since Byleth uses many different weapons. But with Meta Knight, it results in glaring overlap.

Oh hey, I can finally use this for something.


Spears and swords have different strengths and weaknesses. Bandana Dee's Kirby sets focus on thrusts in the cardinal directions (up, down, left, right; angled attacks are rare), and Meta Knight's current Smash normals use a lot of shorter ranged sweeps. Even if Dee were fairly fast, his normal attacks would most likely be completely disjointed and he would rely more on good spacing to land hits. Not to mention that their specials would be completely different -- MK's are all moves that can be used for recover, but Dee's could focus more on Parasol & his Ground Thrust for D-Spec, which is unlike anything in MK's kit.

 

[Oddball]

I feel like so much of this conversation is you trying to add two and two together and telling us the answer is orange. Then when everybody looks at you strangely you start with things like "Well, you have to understands that the second two isn't actually a number but a shape of the alphabet..."

 

[fogbadge]

I feel like so much of this conversation is you trying to add two and two together and telling us the answer is orange. Then when everybody looks at you strangely you start with things like "Well, you have to understands that the second two isn't actually a number but a shape of the alphabet..."

sounds like education in britain

 

[Quillion]

Thanos6 :

There's a time and a place for the BT approach; same with the FighterZ approach and all points beyond and in between. Even with its very large roster, Smash has proven that leaning towards the FighterZ approach is most ideal for it.

There's a reason why most are arguing that Sheik/Greninja and Zelda/Palutena aren't redundant instead of saying that they don't care if they are redundant. That said, I do think your "I don't care" argument is better than everyone else cherry picking and magnifying differences to argue that those two pairs aren't redundant.

1 11th :

I think I can explain this better now: I really think it's the "spirit" of the characters that make Greninja/Sheik and Palutena/Zelda redundant.

Sure, everyone here is trying to say I'm wrong by cherry picking the differences between certain moves whether that be in animation or function, but I find that matters little when Greninja and Sheik have the same speedy ninja spirit, Zelda and Palutena have the graceful, floaty spellcaster spirit, and (to a lesser extent) Bowser and Incineroar have the same fiery wrestler spirit.

It's not just animation or moveset function, they come together to make the spirit of the character. That said, at least Bayonetta and Sora, despite having very similar move functions, are separated by aesthetic, so they don't share the same spirit despite their very similar functions.

Again, if Ganondorf had his "iconic" canon moves, people would be picking apart how he is redundant with Ike (if Ganondorf had more heavy sword moves), Mewtwo (if Ganondorf had energy blast moves), or Sephiroth (if Ganondorf had both).

Also again, the only time characters sharing the same spirit is acceptable is if the characters are clones or echoes. In that case, they're upfront about the characters being similar. If a character is built from the ground up to end up sharing a spirit with another, they're pretending the characters aren't similar when in reality they are.

 

[Lenidem]

Again, if Ganondorf had his "iconic" canon moves, people would be picking apart how he is redundant with Ike (if Ganondorf had more heavy sword moves), Mewtwo (if Ganondorf had energy blast moves), or Sephiroth (if Ganondorf had both).

Judging by this topic, you'd probably be the only one complaining about this.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The notion of “spirit“ is incredibly subjective and so this topic has just become even more useless. As I said before, the line between “redundant” and “well actually they are different” has never been quantified and has always been subjective and arbitrary even with the semi-objective measures of moveset function and aesthetic, but has just become an absolute farce with the ill-defined and opinion-based non-term that is “spirit”

 

[Lenidem]

The notion of “spirit“ is incredibly subjective and so this topic has just become even more useless. As I said before, the line between “redundant” and “well actually they are different” has never been quantified and has always been subjective and arbitrary even with the semi-objective measures of moveset function and aesthetic, but has just become an absolute farce with the ill-defined and opinion-based non-term that is “spirit”

Indeed. For some reason, although "speedy ninja spirit" is apparently a thing, Bowser and K.Rool seem not to share the "big green strong and fast reptilean spirit", and Charizard and Ridley do not share the "fiery winged dragon spirit". What a mystery.

 

[Firox]

Regarding Sheik/Greninja:
Their forward, up, and down tilts are very different. Forward and down smashes are different. N-Air, F-Air, B-Air, U-Air, and D-Air are different. Their grab pummels are visually distinct, and their throws are different. That only leaves a handful of attacks that are very visually and/or functionally similar, but that's bound to happen when you have a roster of almost 90 fighters. If it's okay for semi-clones to share even more similar animations & hitboxes with their parent, then theses two should be no worse.

Totally agree. As a Greninja main I can attest to the fact that the two of them are VERY different. In fact, I'm not really sure there's anything they actually have in common except for the basic ninja motif. To claim either is redundant is just painfully ignorant and illogical. You can argue about Sheik being essentially another Zelda or Greninja being one of many Pokemon, but even then, it's just confirmation bias.

 

[Quillion]

You know what? I'll agree that the notion of character "spirit" is subjective, as well as my vague notions of aesthetic/function combination. The subjectivity of both is probably the reason why everyone here and I can't reach an understanding.

I still stick by that Greninja/Sheik and Palutena/Zelda are the most similar pairs of characters that aren't explicit clones. That should be plainly obvious even if the degree to which it is a problem is subjective. It's the reason why it takes picking out individual moves to point out differences in the two pairs.

To be fair, I said the only reason why Charizard and Ridley aren't similar is that Ridley is alone while Charizard is tied to Squirtle and Ivysaur. So following that, if Sheik and Zelda were to be tied to one another again, there would no longer be any similar pairs.

That said, I don't think Sheik and Zelda's movesets complemented each other well, and if they were to lose their Down-Bs now to be tied together, I don't think they would complement each other even now. Even if they transformed by "Shield-B", they wouldn't complement one another as well as PT's team and the Aegis sisters do. So it's a Morton's Fork of staying split up and creating similar pairs with other characters or being together and feeling tacked on.

Also Lenidem , K. Rool isn't fast and has a selection of projectiles while Bowser is a fast-running brawler whose projectile acts more like a rapid jab. And I've already said my piece on Ridley and Charizard.

 

[Thanos6]

Even with its very large roster, Smash has proven that leaning towards the FighterZ approach is most ideal for it.

No, Smash has proven that leaning towards the FighterZ approach is most ideal for you. Your personal preferences are not an objectively superior fact. (Trust me, I struggle with this as well.)

 

[fogbadge]

You know what? I'll agree that the notion of character "spirit" is subjective, as well as my vague notions of aesthetic/function combination. The subjectivity of both is probably the reason why everyone here and I can't reach an understanding.

aesthetic means the artist's style. youre using the word wrong

 

[Quillion]

No, Smash has proven that leaning towards the FighterZ approach is most ideal for you. Your personal preferences are not an objectively superior fact. (Trust me, I struggle with this as well.)

Sakurai himself said at the end of Smash 4's development that new characters need to be stimulants for the series, and because of this, each fighter needs to do their own things that other fighters can't. Given that Greninja is more or less doing the same "speedy ninja" thing as Sheik (albeit with subtle differences mind), it just seems rather glaring.

aesthetic means the artist's style. youre using the word wrong

I'm using "aesthetic" to encompass appearance, animations, and theme. I don't know of any other word to encompass those aspects.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm using "aesthetic" to encompass appearance, animations, and theme. I don't know of any other word to encompass those aspects.

That’s cause there isn’t one

 

[Oddball]

You know what? I'll agree that the notion of character "spirit" is subjective, as well as my vague notions of aesthetic/function combination. The subjectivity of both is probably the reason why everyone here and I can't reach an understanding.

Every here except you has reached an understanding. That understanding is that you are wrong.

It's okay to be wrong sometimes, but you need to be willing to admit it.

 

[Quillion]

Every here except you has reached an understanding. That understanding is that you are wrong.

It's okay to be wrong sometimes, but you need to be willing to admit it.

I'll only go as far as to agree to disagree. In a roster where even clones (explicit echoes or not) can be very divergent in terms of playstyle, characters that step on each others toes the way Greninja and Sheik do with each other as well as Palutena and Zelda blemish the roster to me.

 

[Oddball]

I'll only go as far as to agree to disagree. In a roster where even clones (explicit echoes or not) can be very divergent in terms of playstyle, characters that step on each others toes the way Greninja and Sheik do with each other as well as Palutena and Zelda blemish the roster to me.

I'm sorry, but this is not a situation where you can step back and go "I respectfully disagree."
You're just flat out wrong and what you're trying to pass off as logic makes no sense.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I... am truly baffled. In a roster of over 80 characters, two ninjas and two feminine mages, who are very distinct from each other, are redundant? If anything, I feel like I'd much rather see more ninjas and more feminine mages before feeling like any of the four characters in the thread's title should be cut for redundancy.

 

[Quillion]

I'm sorry, but this is not a situation where you can step back and go "I respectfully disagree."
You're just flat out wrong and what you're trying to pass off as logic makes no sense.

I'll ask again then, is there anything in my logic that appears to be contradictory at best or hypocritical at worst?

I... am truly baffled. In a roster of over 80 characters, two ninjas and two feminine mages, who are very distinct from each other, are redundant? If anything, I feel like I'd much rather see more ninjas and more feminine mages before feeling like any of the four characters in the thread's title should be cut for redundancy.

I just don't find the distinctions to very significant. Again, actual clones are more distinct in terms of playstyle despite taking less development time. Just look at Link and Young Link or Falcon and Ganondorf.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'll ask again then, is there anything in my logic that appears to be contradictory at best or hypocritical at worst?

That presupposes that what you’re doing is anything resembling logic and not subjective and goalpost-moving ****waffling

 

[Nah]

I'll ask again then, is there anything in my logic that appears to be contradictory at best or hypocritical at worst?

I just don't find the distinctions to very significant. Again, actual clones are more distinct in terms of playstyle despite taking less development time. Just look at Link and Young Link or Falcon and Ganondorf.

I imagine that a lot of it boils down to how you've largely picked and choosed what counts as too redundant.

Overlap is an inevitability, especially as roster size increases. Trying to have each and every fighter being 100% unique in all aspects is an impossibility with as many characters as there in Ultimate, and it's really ok.

This is made all the more baffling to people by the continued insistence that clones are ok (when clones shouldn't even be a thing anymore) when what has long been people's #1 sameyness issue in this game is Marth and his 3 clones.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

In design? Yea, they are redundant. In gameplay? They play completely differently. Even sheik and Greninja. Shiek focuses on long extended combos and overwhelming their opponent until They reach kill %. Then, they focus on forcing their opponents into confirms with needles and soft NAIR. She can also kill off of her strong and fast smash attacks as well as edgeguarding. Greninja works by getting a hit, extending his advantage, and going back into neutral. At that point, he anti airs his opponent into conditoning them into staying grounded. At that point, he catches them off guard and goes for down-tilt up smash with a shield poke and dash attack fair. If he can’t get those confirms, he needs to edgeguard super hard, and struggles to kill even more than shiek.

 

[Quillion]

In design? Yea, they are redundant. In gameplay? They play completely differently. Even sheik and Greninja. Shiek focuses on long extended combos and overwhelming their opponent until They reach kill %. Then, they focus on forcing their opponents into confirms with needles and soft NAIR. She can also kill off of her strong and fast smash attacks as well as edgeguarding. Greninja works by getting a hit, extending his advantage, and going back into neutral. At that point, he anti airs his opponent into conditoning them into staying grounded. At that point, he catches them off guard and goes for down-tilt up smash with a shield poke and dash attack fair. If he can’t get those confirms, he needs to edgeguard super hard, and struggles to kill even more than shiek.

You know what? I'm convinced that they play differently now. Some moves may be vaguely similar to me still, but they still use them differently.

That said, I'm still not so sure why people tolerate how the visual designs of Zelda/Palutena and Greninja/Sheik are so similar, as even Linkmain-maybe admits. Nah may have noted that the biggest problem with many is Marth and his clones, but I see that as justified, as they're all sword-wielding protagonists from one franchise, plus they save development time.

Greninja isn't from the same franchise as Sheik, nor does it save development time by copying over Sheik's moves, so why even bother? At least Palutena used to have her Mii-like customs before those were cut; she still lacks a reason for being on the roster without them though.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

You know what? I'm convinced that they play differently now. Some moves may be vaguely similar to me still, but they still use them differently.

That said, I'm still not so sure why people tolerate how the visual designs of Zelda/Palutena and Greninja/Sheik are so similar, as even Linkmain-maybe admits. Nah may have noted that the biggest problem with many is Marth and his clones, but I see that as justified, as they're all sword-wielding protagonists from one franchise, plus they save development time.

Greninja isn't from the same franchise as Sheik, nor does it save development time by copying over Sheik's moves, so why even bother? At least Palutena used to have her Mii-like customs before those were cut; she still lacks a reason for being on the roster without them though.

Visually they still have distinct differences though. With Zelda, you can see many different things than Palutena. Zelda has lots of gold parts, but they aren’t for decoration. She has gauntlet’s to protect her arms and shoulder plating. She wears a loose dress and leather boots, showing that he isn’t obsessed with vanity, as well as being more practical. She also isn’t very shapely, indicating her young age and innocent nature. Her pointed ears also show her magical side, showing she isn’t human. She, on first impressions, is a royal elf who is a bit tomboyish but is not very materialistic.

on the other hand, Palutena is more mature. Large breasts and a older face show that right away. She also has a taller stature as well. Her dress is tighter, revealing her curves. She has gold gauntlets, yet she also has pointless jewelry on her chest, which is there explicitly for vanity. Her shield and staff already show that she is ready for battle, and less care free. The angelic lights constantly surrounding her show her divine origin. She has long green hair that is perfectly maintained. On first impressions, she is some kind of heavenly being who has seen warfare sue to her weapons, and is most likey older than she appears.

 

[fogbadge]

You know what? I'm convinced that they play differently now. Some moves may be vaguely similar to me still, but they still use them differently.

That said, I'm still not so sure why people tolerate how the visual designs of Zelda/Palutena and Greninja/Sheik are so similar, as even Linkmain-maybe admits. Nah may have noted that the biggest problem with many is Marth and his clones, but I see that as justified, as they're all sword-wielding protagonists from one franchise, plus they save development time.

Greninja isn't from the same franchise as Sheik, nor does it save development time by copying over Sheik's moves, so why even bother? At least Palutena used to have her Mii-like customs before those were cut; she still lacks a reason for being on the roster without them though.

you think the large blue frog ninja with the tongue scarf looks similar to the human with pointy ears?

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

you think the large blue frog ninja with the tongue scarf looks similar to the human with pointy ears?

oddly enough, we actually never see Sheiks ears. Only when she is Zelda.

 

[fogbadge]

oddly enough, we actually never see Sheiks ears. Only when she is Zelda.

Yeah but shiekah have pointy ears so we can assume so

 

[Quillion]

Visually they still have distinct differences though. With Zelda, you can see many different things than Palutena. Zelda has lots of gold parts, but they aren’t for decoration. She has gauntlet’s to protect her arms and shoulder plating. She wears a loose dress and leather boots, showing that he isn’t obsessed with vanity, as well as being more practical. She also isn’t very shapely, indicating her young age and innocent nature. Her pointed ears also show her magical side, showing she isn’t human. She, on first impressions, is a royal elf who is a bit tomboyish but is not very materialistic.

on the other hand, Palutena is more mature. Large breasts and a older face show that right away. She also has a taller stature as well. Her dress is tighter, revealing her curves. She has gold gauntlets, yet she also has pointless jewelry on her chest, which is there explicitly for vanity. Her shield and staff already show that she is ready for battle, and less care free. The angelic lights constantly surrounding her show her divine origin. She has long green hair that is perfectly maintained. On first impressions, she is some kind of heavenly being who has seen warfare sue to her weapons, and is most likey older than she appears.

Still though, no other pair of non-clone characters share visual themes the way the pair of Greninja and Sheik and the pair of Palutena and Zelda do.

The closest could be Ridley and Charizard, but again, Charizard is part of a team while Ridley is solo.

 

[fogbadge]

Still though, no other pair of non-clone characters share visual themes the way the pair of Greninja and Sheik and the pair of Palutena and Zelda do.

The closest could be Ridley and Charizard, but again, Charizard is part of a team while Ridley is solo.

ok what do you meant when you say visual themes? cause i really dont see how you could possibly mix up any of these characters

 

[Perkilator]

This is like saying Bandana Waddle Dee would be redundant because Byleth already has lance moves even though Byleth's moveset revolves around multiple weapons.

Actually, on that note:

Perkilator :

Frankly, I think Bandana Waddle Dee would intrude on Meta Knight's niche as a small-bodied weapon wielder with quick strikes. If there was no Meta Knight and just Byleth, things would be fine since Byleth uses many different weapons. But with Meta Knight, it results in glaring overlap.

There's no overlap in this at all. Even if you had a moveset like this, BWD would still be vastly different from Meta Knight and Byleth combined.

 

[Tollhouse]

ok what do you meant when you say visual themes? cause i really dont see how you could possibly mix up any of these characters

I really don't buy this argument. The only similarity Greninja and Sheik have are their speed and I guess their up airs? When I read "visual themes," I interpret it as what their optimal gameplay looks like. I don't think the characters play like each other.

 

[Oddball]

I really don't buy this argument.

Nobody buys that argument.

I mean, Sheik and greninja are both blue and have a long scarf like thing, but in Greninj's case it's a tongue. Sheik is obviously human with, armor, and a costume meant to make them look mysterious while Greninja is a big cartoony frog thing.

Captain Falcon has more in common with Sheik than Greninja does.

And Charizard and Ridley? Even less in common. They're both dragon things and that's it. Charizard is far more soft and cartoony with a classic fantasy look and a bright color scheme. Ridley's body is tight and harsh, realistically detailed with a far threatening alien look.

What's next. Are we going to start complaining that Chrom and Cloud look too much alike because they both wear blue sleeveless outfits and have swords? Does Megaman look too much like Samus because they have helmets and guns for hands? Ganondorf and Simon because they're both humans in brown medieval looking armor?

 

[Quillion]

ok what do you meant when you say visual themes? cause i really dont see how you could possibly mix up any of these characters

I really don't buy this argument. The only similarity Greninja and Sheik have are their speed and I guess their up airs? When I read "visual themes," I interpret it as what their optimal gameplay looks like. I don't think the characters play like each other.

I mean by how Greninja and Sheik share a ninja theme and how Palutena and Zelda share a feminine-spellcaster-in-a-dress theme. That's oddly specific for characters who aren't clones.

 

[fogbadge]

I mean by how Greninja and Sheik share a ninja theme and how Palutena and Zelda share a feminine-spellcaster-in-a-dress theme. That's oddly specific for characters who aren't clones.

by that logic every sword fighter looks the same. You’re pretty much saying: they’re both ninjas they must look the same. How are samus and falcon not the same for both being space faring bounty hunters? There’s no logic or reasoning there at all

 

[Oddball]

I mean by how Greninja and Sheik share a ninja theme and how Palutena and Zelda share a feminine-spellcaster-in-a-dress theme. That's oddly specific for characters who aren't clones.

Specific? That's about as vague a description as you can give a character.