Greninja and Sheik are redundant. Palutena and Zelda have the same problem.

[Jondolio]

Bruh if Greninja was cut and I were told to just play Sheik, I'd tell them to **** right off

Froakie was my first ever Pokémon and I got super excited when I found out Greninja is in Smash. That's why I main them. Sheik does basically nothing for me.

If we get to the nitty-gritty of their gameplay, they have noticeable differences in physics. This may seem like a small thing to OP but it really isn't, if a character doesn't control the way I like them then I don't wanna play as them, it's why I can't stand playing as Dedede for example. Sheik is too fast for me compared to Greninja who is just right. And that's without even getting into their movesets.

Side note but I noticed OP has a tendency to make these threads with points that practically no one agrees with and has a tendency to treat their opinion as fact... Just saying

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

At this point, the thread looks more like a personal rant, and one that makes no sense by any means. Zelda and Palutena do not play the same way, especially considering that the latter's mobility is better. Likewise, Sheik and Greninja have different playstyles.

And then you have the swordfighters, where you can't use Roy the same way as with Marth.

 

[Guynamednelson]

At this point, the thread looks more like a personal rant

Quillion makes a lot of topics like this.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Quillion makes a lot of topics like this.

I do still remember that one topic relating to Bowser. He at least looks more like his appearances in the Super Mario series (mainstream and spin-off) now, instead of the feral appearance that was used in Melee and Brawl.

 

[Quillion]

Shroob :

Falcon practically had no canon to go off of. All he had was the high-speed spirit of F-Zero, giving Sakurai near-carte blanche to do whatever he wanted so long as the high speed was represented. And at the time, there was no speedy, mid-heavy, projectile-less brawler juggling fast weak moves and strong slow moves.

On the other hand, if Lyn were to reflect the spirit of her origins in FE7 (middling Str, Spd-focused, kinda fragile), she would interfere with Marth's niche way too much. There's a reason that despite her immense popularity, she's still an Assist Trophy.

Oddball :

Look, Greninja and Sheik are both ninjas. They have the same job in the Final Fantasy sense. No one can deny that. But it goes farther than that:

Sheik and Greninja have some uncomfortable similarities beyond just being ninjas; they both have a vanish move, deceptively long-range forward aerial poke, an upwards drill kick, a rapid jab, a chargeable projectile, and a "spread wings" up Smash among other things.

Ryu and Doc are close in moveset, but their themes are separate.

I'm fine with characters that share aesthetic but not function: Marth and Ike are blue-haired heroic swordsmen, but one's quick and skillful while the other is slow and strong. I also like characters that share function but not aesthetic as Venus of the Desert Bloom noted about Bayonetta and Sora. And I not just accept, but embrace clones, semi-clones, and echoes because any functional and aesthetic overlap that may happen is a result of saved development time.

It's when a character is built from the ground up just to result in having the same aesthetic/function combination as another character that it gets glaring.

CrusherMania1592 :

Like I said before, clones (including semi-clones and explicit echoes) are okay because they owe their existence to decreased development time. This includes Roy from Marth and Wolf from Fox.

Greninja is in a precarious position because he was made from the ground up and ended up intruding on Sheik's niche in terms of a combination of aesthetics and function. Palutena was originally unique thanks to her having a Mii-like customs system, but since that system was cut, she's now in Zelda's niche in a similar way.

Perkilator :

Frankly, I think Bandana Waddle Dee would intrude on Meta Knight's niche as a small-bodied weapon wielder with quick strikes. If there was no Meta Knight and just Byleth, things would be fine since Byleth uses many different weapons. But with Meta Knight, it results in glaring overlap.

WeirdChillFever :

"Dark and sneaky aesthetic" is too broad of a category to lump Sheik and Joker together. Sheik is a no-frills ninja, while Joker brings in the JoJo-esque style of Persona 5 with him (Persona 5 being more JoJo-esque than any previous Persona actually), constantly striking poses and retaliating with his Persona for a beatdown when things look dire.

I can see what you mean in Sheik and Joker having similar moveset functions, though, but again, even discounting Joker's Persona gimmick, I'm fine with characters that share function but not aesthetic.

Jondolio :

I apologize if it seems like I'm pushing my opinion as fact in this thread. People keep telling me I do that, and that's a problem that I've been trying to work on.

That said, I'm not afraid to back my opinions with more thorough reasoning or with other facts. Both are necessary for opinion writing in anything applicable.

I'm also still open to having my view changed; I just didn't feel like writing out "change my view" in the thread title this time.

 

[fogbadge]

Shroob :

Falcon practically had no canon to go off of. All he had was the high-speed spirit of F-Zero, giving Sakurai near-carte blanche to do whatever he wanted so long as the high speed was represented. And at the time, there was no speedy, mid-heavy, projectile-less brawler juggling fast weak moves and strong slow moves.

On the other hand, if Lyn were to reflect the spirit of her origins in FE7 (middling Str, Spd-focused, kinda fragile), she would interfere with Marth's niche way too much. There's a reason that despite her immense popularity, she's still an Assist Trophy.

Oddball :

Look, Greninja and Sheik are both ninjas. They have the same job in the Final Fantasy sense. No one can deny that. But it goes farther than that:



Ryu and Doc are close in moveset, but their themes are separate.

I'm fine with characters that share aesthetic but not function: Marth and Ike are blue-haired heroic swordsmen, but one's quick and skillful while the other is slow and strong. I also like characters that share function but not aesthetic as Venus of the Desert Bloom noted about Bayonetta and Sora. And I not just accept, but embrace clones, semi-clones, and echoes because any functional and aesthetic overlap that may happen is a result of saved development time.

It's when a character is built from the ground up just to result in having the same aesthetic/function combination as another character that it gets glaring.

CrusherMania1592 :

Like I said before, clones (including semi-clones and explicit echoes) are okay because they owe their existence to decreased development time. This includes Roy from Marth and Wolf from Fox.

Greninja is in a precarious position because he was made from the ground up and ended up intruding on Sheik's niche in terms of a combination of aesthetics and function. Palutena was originally unique thanks to her having a Mii-like customs system, but since that system was cut, she's now in Zelda's niche in a similar way.

Perkilator :

Frankly, I think Bandana Waddle Dee would intrude on Meta Knight's niche as a small-bodied weapon wielder with quick strikes. If there was no Meta Knight and just Byleth, things would be fine since Byleth uses many different weapons. But with Meta Knight, it results in glaring overlap.

WeirdChillFever :

"Dark and sneaky aesthetic" is too broad of a category to lump Sheik and Joker together. Sheik is a no-frills ninja, while Joker brings in the JoJo-esque style of Persona 5 with him (Persona 5 being more JoJo-esque than any previous Persona actually), constantly striking poses and retaliating with his Persona for a beatdown when things look dire.

I can see what you mean in Sheik and Joker having similar moveset functions, though, but again, even discounting Joker's Persona gimmick, I'm fine with characters that share function but not aesthetic.

Jondolio :

I apologize if it seems like I'm pushing my opinion as fact in this thread. People keep telling me I do that, and that's a problem that I've been trying to work on.

That said, I'm not afraid to back my opinions with more thorough reasoning or with other facts. Both are necessary for opinion writing in anything applicable.

I'm also still open to having my view changed; I just didn't feel like writing out "change my view" in the thread title this time.

ok if aesthetic is the problem then surely theres a lot more characters whom you would consider redundant

 

[Shroob]

Yeah, I'm just lost tbh.


This argument is just, beyond my comprehension.

 

[Oracle Link]

Yeah, I'm just lost tbh.


This argument is just, beyond my comprehension.

Please be a bit more Precise!
And the last 3 parts are just Advertising a Demo I made! dont Worry i wont do more Until Tommorrow!

 

[Lenidem]

Honestly, given how Ganon in any form is an Orcus on His Throne who could sunder the world singlehanded if he weren't so lazy, I wouldn't be surprised that the reason why he was last-minute was because the devs couldn't think of a proper moveset that could fit into Smash's limitations.

Bullcrap. You can easily design a whole Smash character based on Ocarina's final fight.

 

[Shroob]

Please be a bit more Precise!
And the last 3 parts are just Advertising a Demo I made! dont Worry i wont do more Until Tommorrow!

I'm talking about the thread in question.

 

[Oracle Link]

I'm talking about the thread in question.

I tried to make it more Clear what i Meant! try cxhecking it Again!

 

[PeridotGX]

I disagree with the statement that Zelda and Palutena are too simmilar. I feel like the presense of the staff provides a significant difference between the two. They could have distinguished them more by choosing different customs to bring to ultimate, but it's not neccecary.

Sheik and Greninja is a better argument, but I think the co-existence of them is fine. Having two ninjas is fine - hell, Hayabusa is one of the most requested fighters.

 

[Quillion]

ok if aesthetic is the problem then surely theres a lot more characters whom you would consider redundant

It's not just aesthetic, nor is it just moveset function; it's the combination of both:

I'm fine with characters that share aesthetic but not function: Marth and Ike are blue-haired heroic swordsmen, but one's quick and skillful while the other is slow and strong. I also like characters that share function but not aesthetic as @Venus of the Desert Bloom noted about Bayonetta and Sora. And I not just accept, but embrace clones, semi-clones, and echoes because any functional and aesthetic overlap that may happen is a result of saved development time.

It's when a character is built from the ground up just to result in having the same aesthetic/function combination as another character that it gets glaring.

I disagree with the statement that Zelda and Palutena are too simmilar. I feel like the presense of the staff provides a significant difference between the two. They could have distinguished them more by choosing different customs to bring to ultimate, but it's not neccecary.

Touché, but it should be noted that they have moves similar in function and/or animation with each other even with the wrinkle of the staff. They have a rapid jab, similarly animated f-Airs, slow "magic blast" u-Airs, telekinetic throws, a reflector, distant fire explosion, and teleport.

Sheik and Greninja is a better argument, but I think the co-existence of them is fine. Having two ninjas is fine - hell, Hayabusa is one of the most requested fighters.

Oh yeah, I forgot that Ryu Hayabusa is still a big request, especially since his NES game was pretty big and Koei Tecmo is still unrepresented.

What I said about Lyn applies though. She's really popular, but promoting her from assist, assuming they want to keep the spirit of her character from her origin game, would result in her intruding on Marth's niche. Sure, they could make her a Mighty Glacier instead, but it wouldn't feel like Lyn then.

Likewise, I can only really see Hayabusa as an assist. If they want to make him faithful to his canon, he's just another redundant ninja. If they want to avoid the ninja tricks that Sheik and Greninja share, he wouldn't feel like a ninja, much less like himself in his various games throughout the Ninja Gaiden and Dead or Alive series.

You made some really good points, though.

 

[Oddball]

What I said about Lyn applies though. She's really popular, but promoting her from assist, assuming they want to keep the spirit of her character from her origin game, would result in her intruding on Marth's niche. Sure, they could make her a Mighty Glacier instead, but it wouldn't feel like Lyn then.

Yet somehow Chrom still made it in.

Likewise, I can only really see Hayabusa as an assist. If they want to make him faithful to his canon, he's just another redundant ninja. If they want to avoid the ninja tricks that Sheik and Greninja share, he wouldn't feel like a ninja, much less like himself in his various games throughout the Ninja Gaiden and Dead or Alive series.

You're calling Ryu another redundant ninja.

That's like calling Mario "just another platform hero" or Street Figter's Ryu "some generic karate guy."

The fact that YOU personally can't see him working only goes to show your lack of vision. Again, we have actual professionals working on the game.

It's not just aesthetic, nor is it just moveset function; it's the combination of both:

Their aesthetics and movesets functions are only vaguely similar at best.

 

[Quillion]

Yet somehow Chrom still made it in.

As an echo. Which, again, are fine because they're made to bring in more characters without spending the resources on a full character. If Chrom was made from the ground up, then yes, he would be a waste of resources.

You're calling Ryu another redundant ninja.

That's like calling Mario "just another platform hero" or Street Figter's Ryu "some generic karate guy."

The fact that YOU personally can't see him working only goes to show your lack of vision. Again, we have actual professionals working on the game.

It's not like the developers don't have their own troubles with vision. They could have made some things up for Heihachi to fill in the gaps of the face of Tekken, but they went with his son because he has "pre-built" things he could do.

Their aesthetics and movesets functions are only vaguely similar at best.

but it should be noted that [Palutena and Zelda] have moves similar in function and/or animation with each other even with the wrinkle of the staff. They have a rapid jab, similarly animated f-Airs, slow "magic blast" u-Airs, telekinetic throws, a reflector, distant fire explosion, and teleport.

I explained Palutena and Zelda up above, but Sheik and Greninja have some uncomfortable similarities beyond just being ninjas; they both have a vanish move, deceptively long-range forward aerial poke, an upwards drill kick, a rapid jab, a chargeable projectile, and a "spread wings" up Smash among other things.

I assume the meaning of "vague" you're using is "not clearly defined, grasped, or understood", but can all those similarities really be construed as "vague"?

 

[Oddball]

I assume the meaning of "vague" you're using is "not clearly defined, grasped, or understood", but can all those similarities really be construed as "vague"?

You've done a horrible job at defining them and nobody can understand what you're actually talking about, so yeah, vague works.

 

[Quillion]

You've done a horrible job at defining them and nobody can understand what you're actually talking about, so yeah, vague works.

I'm sorry for any confusion caused by my poor definitions.

I really would like to make them and additional reasoning better though. I know the participants in this discussion have objected to the way I defined the aesthetic/function combination, but we don't have to discuss that now if anyone doesn't want to. Though I have two main questions: Do I need to do more to demonstrate the potential aesthetic/function combination similarity, like say, having visuals such as pictures or GIF/video clips? Is there anything in my reasoning that is contradictory at best or makes me seem a hypocrite at worst?

 

[Thanos6]

I'd be happy to have thirty ninjas, or magicians, or whatever, and I wouldn't be bothered by any alleged "stepping on toes."

Are you at all familiar with the "Sparking"/"Budokai Tenkaichi" series of DBZ games? The third game has 161 characters. Many of them share a lot of characteristics; basic and special attacks, buffs and debuffs. There's probably only a few real "archetypes." In short, there's a ton of overlap. But the fanbase, myself included, does not like it when they cut characters, even the incredibly minor ones, even the ones who play almost identically to one another.

Because a lot of people do like having a "museum" of characters. And we like it here in Smash, too.

 

[fogbadge]

It's not just aesthetic, nor is it just moveset function; it's the combination of both:

ok im not convinced you know what the word aesthetic means. cause the only way it can apply to both greninja and shiek is in a way it applies to the entire game

 

[Nah]

On the other hand, if Lyn were to reflect the spirit of her origins in FE7 (middling Str, Spd-focused, kinda fragile), she would interfere with Marth's niche way too much. There's a reason that despite her immense popularity, she's still an Assist Trophy.

What I said about Lyn applies though. She's really popular, but promoting her from assist, assuming they want to keep the spirit of her character from her origin game, would result in her intruding on Marth's niche. Sure, they could make her a Mighty Glacier instead, but it wouldn't feel like Lyn then.

man when are people gonna warm up to the idea of Mulagir Lyn for Smash

We could make the Fire Emblem part of the roster really cool, but people wanna keep sticking to dumb **** like "protags first" and making characters' appearances in Smash as canon as possible. And then we end up with what we have where half of the FE roster is the same ****ing thing.

 

[Lenidem]

We could make the Fire Emblem part of the roster really cool, but people wanna keep sticking to dumb **** like "protags first" and making characters' appearances in Smash as canon as possible. And then we end up with what we have where half of the FE roster is the same ****ing thing.

Or we could have the protagonists first (which is not always the case anyway, so "people" are not responsible for the state of the roster as it is), characters as canon a possible, and less Fire Emblem. That would work too.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Shroob :

On the other hand, if Lyn were to reflect the spirit of her origins in FE7 (middling Str, Spd-focused, kinda fragile), she would interfere with Marth's niche way too much. There's a reason that despite her immense popularity, she's still an Assist Trophy.

Greninja is in a precarious position because he was made from the ground up and ended up intruding on Sheik's niche in terms of a combination of aesthetics and function. Palutena was originally unique thanks to her having a Mii-like customs system, but since that system was cut, she's now in Zelda's niche in a similar way.

Perkilator :

Frankly, I think Bandana Waddle Dee would intrude on Meta Knight's niche as a small-bodied weapon wielder with quick strikes. If there was no Meta Knight and just Byleth, things would be fine since Byleth uses many different weapons. But with Meta Knight, it results in glaring overlap.

WeirdChillFever :

"Dark and sneaky aesthetic" is too broad of a category to lump Sheik and Joker together. Sheik is a no-frills ninja, while Joker brings in the JoJo-esque style of Persona 5 with him (Persona 5 being more JoJo-esque than any previous Persona actually), constantly striking poses and retaliating with his Persona for a beatdown when things look dire.

I can see what you mean in Sheik and Joker having similar moveset functions, though, but again, even discounting Joker's Persona gimmick, I'm fine with characters that share function but not aesthetic.

In that case I’d like to bring up the fact that Greninja is a frog and Sheik is not. Greninja also uses swords/kunai in certain moves which affects both aesthetic as well as function. I see your point in the distinction in aesthetic and your distinction in moveset, but where you draw the line on what is sufficiently distinctive in both areas is subjective and thus open to debate.

For the Bandana Dee and Meta Knight case for example, I’d say Meta Knight’s niche is more leaning towards the acrobatic/aerial chases type of playstyle than his weapon wielding, with the quick strikes facilitating the type of combos he wants to do and his amount of jumps playing a huge role im his playstyle.

Besides me doubting Bandana Dee would have quick strikes, exaggerating his spear’s range would give him a more stationary and grounded playstyle than an acrobatic, aerial ace playstyle.

Similarly perhaps, the distinction between Marth and Lyn could be that Marth strikes are all arcing slashes that cover a lot of space, whereas Lyn would be more precise with thin hitboxes.

 

[Perkilator]

I've also seen people say Eggman would be too much like Bowser Jr. if he fought in his Egg Mobile, but there are ways to make home unique in that regard (here's my attempt btw).

 

[Quillion]

I'd be happy to have thirty ninjas, or magicians, or whatever, and I wouldn't be bothered by any alleged "stepping on toes."

Are you at all familiar with the "Sparking"/"Budokai Tenkaichi" series of DBZ games? The third game has 161 characters. Many of them share a lot of characteristics; basic and special attacks, buffs and debuffs. There's probably only a few real "archetypes." In short, there's a ton of overlap. But the fanbase, myself included, does not like it when they cut characters, even the incredibly minor ones, even the ones who play almost identically to one another.

Because a lot of people do like having a "museum" of characters. And we like it here in Smash, too.

Touché, but I looked up information on the third game, and aren't a good portion of the characters just different forms of the same person? It looks like DBFZ's situation of having multiple Gokus and Vegetas but on a larger scale. BT3 seems to do a combination of Smash cloning multiple characters and Street Fighter repeatedly cloning one character; in short BT3 repeatedly clones multiple characters through the method of having multiple forms of them.

That said, I do see that there are at least some people who would prioritize a "character museum" over a first-and-foremost fighting game. I just get kinda annoyed with that subgroup within the Smash fandom since, in regards to the veteran characters, they often want to throw away good moveset designs in favor of making the characters "more like their canon selves", disregarding how they would be dated on the spot, overcomplicated, or redundant with other characters.

man when are people gonna warm up to the idea of Mulagir Lyn for Smash

We could make the Fire Emblem part of the roster really cool, but people wanna keep sticking to dumb **** like "protags first" and making characters' appearances in Smash as canon as possible. And then we end up with what we have where half of the FE roster is the same ****ing thing.

So you would risk a "Ganondorf situation" by having Lyn fight with her secondary weapon type as opposed to her signature twin Kattis?

I could go for that honestly. I would like to see more characters exclusively utilize their canonically secondary fighting style, especially since most protagonists and even villains in video games are either fistfighters or sword wielders.

Or we could have the protagonists first (which is not always the case anyway, so "people" are not responsible for the state of the roster as it is), characters as canon a possible, and less Fire Emblem. That would work too.

So you would want more Links (protagonists first) sticking to the sword, shield, bow, bombs, boomerang, and spin (as canon as possible) in the name of having less Fire Emblem?

In that case I’d like to bring up the fact that Greninja is a frog and Sheik is not. Greninja also uses swords/kunai in certain moves which affects both aesthetic as well as function. I see your point in the distinction in aesthetic and your distinction in moveset, but where you draw the line on what is sufficiently distinctive in both areas is subjective and thus open to debate.

For the Bandana Dee and Meta Knight case for example, I’d say Meta Knight’s niche is more leaning towards the acrobatic/aerial chases type of playstyle than his weapon wielding, with the quick strikes facilitating the type of combos he wants to do and his amount of jumps playing a huge role im his playstyle.

Besides me doubting Bandana Dee would have quick strikes, exaggerating his spear’s range would give him a more stationary and grounded playstyle than an acrobatic, aerial ace playstyle.

Similarly perhaps, the distinction between Marth and Lyn could be that Marth strikes are all arcing slashes that cover a lot of space, whereas Lyn would be more precise with thin hitboxes.

Touché as well. Ike had the unrefined hard hitting of his swordplay in Smash exaggerated when he is canonically quick and skillful. So deemphasizing Bandana Dee's canonically quick spear strikes would be a reasonable move. That said, the Smash 4-on games have this weird fixation with making fighters as canonically faithful as possible to the point, so I don't know how possible that would be at this point.

On another note, Lyn's Kattis are katanas, which are slashing swords. I'm not sure how precise thin hitboxes would work with that.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Touché as well. Ike had the unrefined hard hitting of his swordplay in Smash exaggerated when he is canonically quick and skillful. So deemphasizing Bandana Dee's canonically quick spear strikes would be a reasonable move. That said, the Smash 4-on games have this weird fixation with making fighters as canonically faithful as possible to the point, so I don't know how possible that would be at this point.

On another note, Lyn's Kattis are katanas, which are slashing swords. I'm not sure how precise thin hitboxes would work with that.

True, but Bandana Dee’s most salient trait is his long and precise range, even in Kirby, whereas Meta Knight is more about the 360 coverage at the expense of range, let alone the differences in mobility they could have especially when it comea to jumps.

As far as Lyn goes, her strikes could slash more in the z-axis, so that the hitbox in the 2D plane that the fighters fight in is smaller. Like, from Marth’s perspective, he swings his sword from his head downwards. Lyn could swing hers from right to left, so that when seen from our perspective, her strikes are very precise.

 

[Thanos6]

Touché, but I looked up information on the third game, and aren't a good portion of the characters just different forms of the same person?

Yes, but there's also a ton of extremely minor characters who are thrown in just for fanservice.

And sharing moves, animations, etc. doesn't just happen between variations of the same character but between unrelated ones as well.

And, again, we don't care, because we like having the enormous variety of characters.

That said, I do see that there are at least some people who would prioritize a "character museum" over a first-and-foremost fighting game. I just get kinda annoyed with that subgroup within the Smash fandom since, in regards to the veteran characters, they often want to throw away good moveset designs in favor of making the characters "more like their canon selves", disregarding how they would be dated on the spot, overcomplicated, or redundant with other characters.

Let me start by saying this is just my personal preference, "how I would like Smash to be for me," not "how Smash should be to appeal to the largest audience," or "this would make Smash objectively better." Just so we're clear.

But I really do not care about characters being "redundant." That doesn't matter to me one iota. Nor do I believe they're overcomplicated. We're not talking about Geese Howard.

And being "dated" is actually a plus for me. I personally want characters to mostly represent their earlier appearances, the ones that made them famous to begin with. I want Bowser with a projectile fireball, I want a Ganon who's a boar man that uses a trident and magic.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Wait a minute - since when has Bowser been a wrestler? Because of his side B body slam? That makes him a wrestler?

How do you list the comparisons you did without listing how we have essentially 4 Marths?

 

[Lenidem]

So you would want more Links (protagonists first) sticking to the sword, shield, bow, bombs, boomerang, and spin (as canon as possible) in the name of having less Fire Emblem?

1) There are already more than enough Link.
2) There are far more "canon" moves possibilities than the ones you listed.
3) Thinking a franchise is over-represented doesn't imply you want disproportionate, stale representation for another.

 

[fogbadge]

1) There are already more than enough Link.

there are never enough links

 

[Lenidem]

there are never enough links

I can't tell if you're joking or not.

 

[fogbadge]

I can't tell if you're joking or not.

im not

 

[Quillion]

WeirdChillFever :

I guess the only problem with Z-axis slashes, extending to brawling roundhouse punches and kicks, is that they result in attacks that don't linger long enough in the fighters' plane, which results in them being hard to hit with.

Thanos6 :

Well, if you're upfront about having no opposition to redundancy on Smash's roster, I can't really begrudge you for that. It's just that Smash has a lot of parameters that provide so much room for playstyle variety (ground mobility, air mobility, kill power, combo potential, attack range, recovery potential, etc.) that potential redundancy is very noticeable. It's not like the Budokai Tenkaichi games where everyone is flying around doing literal DBZ stuff; it's a Dragon Ball game; what else can you do anyway?

On another note, I can certainly agree that "dated" portrayals of characters are usually better, if only because they tend to be more "generalized" and doing things like giving Mario Cappy would result in a portrayal too tied to one game. I still have major disdain for FLUDD and minor disdain for the Cape for that reason.

HYRULESHERO42 :

Since Smash 4, they've reduced his claw and shell strikes for conventional punches and kicks. He even has dropkicks for his F-Smash and B-air. His D-Throw is also a body slam. It's not as bad as Sheik/Greninja and Zelda/Palutena, but I am pretty disgruntled with Bowser's Smash 4-on portrayal partly because I feel alienated from the Melee/Brawl animations, and partly because Ultimate brought in another Fire-using wrestler with a command grab (Flying Slam/Alolan Whip), falling attack (Bowser Bomb/Cross Chop), and spinning approach (Whirling Fortress/Darkest Lariat).

Regarding the "4 Marths", I already have a counterpoint regarding clones and echoes, but no one seems to want to make a counterpoint to this counterpoint:

Before you say "clones" or "echoes", I like most of them since they're primarily done just to save development time. Developing a character from scratch just to have them be similar to another character is just a waste of development time no matter how you slice it.

Lenidem and fogbadge :

I still wish we got OoT/TP "Classic" Link as an echo for current Link. I loved BotW, but Link's moveset was just so alienating in its animation and functional changes. They had the perfect opportunity to preserve the previous moveset as an echo (which again, saves time and development), but they didn't take it.

No, Young Link wasn't good enough.

 

[Thanos6]

It's not like the Budokai Tenkaichi games where everyone is flying around doing literal DBZ stuff; it's a Dragon Ball game; what else can you do anyway?

Oh, lots of things. You have more traditional fighting games that have a lot fewer characters who're very distinct from each other. There's very little redundancy there, aside from the occasional duplicate Goku or Vegeta. It's just the BT series decided to focus on recreating the DBZ "experience" as much as possible, and that included throwing in as many fan-favorite minor characters as possible.

On another note, I can certainly agree that "dated" portrayals of characters are usually better, if only because they tend to be more "generalized" and doing things like giving Mario Cappy would result in a portrayal too tied to one game. I still have major disdain for FLUDD and minor disdain for the Cape for that reason.

I think we might be having different meanings for "dated" in mind?

 

[fogbadge]

No, Young Link wasn't good enough.

why? too short?

 

[Quillion]

Thanos6 :

So different games have different amounts of room for playstyle variety. Following this, different games should take advantage of this room to different extents depending on the amount of room, so Smash should prioritize moving around in this room above pure quantity of characters for fanservice. It's the same reason why FighterZ will never have the same amount of characters as BT3.

On the topic of being "dated", I would personally prefer the characters to be "generalized" over prioritizing their first appearance. It's just that their first appearances tend to establish their more recurrent abilities that "dated" and "generalized" tend to have a lot of overlap. Even then being dated can lead to problems, as Bowser would have the ability to throw hammers if he were based solely on SMB1, and he doesn't even throw hammers anymore.

fogbadge :

Young Link is too short, he doesn't have the Master Sword and Hylian Shield, he's too fast, and he doesn't have the Jump Attack. Not a good substitute for the "classic" Link moveset with those in mind.

 

[fogbadge]

fogbadge
Young Link is too short, he doesn't have the Master Sword and Hylian Shield, he's too fast, and he doesn't have the Jump Attack. Not a good substitute for the "classic" Link moveset with those in mind.

uh huh

i assume you mean classic for smash bros as in his original moveset and opposed to the link from the first game who is usually referred to as classic link

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Ok you excuse clones and echos but are rallying against unique fighters who happen to share themes…

 

[Quillion]

uh huh

i assume you mean classic for smash bros as in his original moveset and opposed to the link from the first game who is usually referred to as classic link

I guess we can do both and have Zelda 1/2 Link be "Classic" Link's default while OoT and TP Link are alts for him. Link is 17 in Zelda 2, it could work.

Ok you excuse clones and echos but are rallying against unique fighters who happen to share themes…

Of course. Again, they make no secret of clones and echoes being made as roster padding with decreased development time for each clone or echo. They make no pretense of them being similar anyway.

On the other hand, making a full, ground-up character that ends up having theme AND moveset similarities to another character is a frivolous waste of resources. They try to pretend the characters are different, but they still feel the same because of the theme AND moveset similarities.

 

[fogbadge]

I guess we can do both and have Zelda 1/2 Link be "Classic" Link's default while OoT and TP Link are alts for him. Link is 17 in Zelda 2, it could work.

And in oot he’s 16 but what’s the ages gotta do with anything

 

[Thanos6]

Following this, different games should take advantage of this room to different extents depending on the amount of room, so Smash should prioritize moving around in this room above pure quantity of characters for fanservice. It's the same reason why FighterZ will never have the same amount of characters as BT3.

Why? Why should Smash take the FZ approach as opposed to the BT3 approach? You prefer one but I prefer the other.