Grab Release > Pivot Grab

[Liquid Gen]

Ok, as I have previously seen, Bowser can GR > to a pivot grab on some characters. The following characters are susceptible to the pivot:

Mario

Luigi (sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Verification is appreciated.)

Peach

Bowser (lol)

Ganondorf

Wario

Toon Link (YES)

Kirby

Metaknight

Olimar

Fox (needs to be absolutely perfect)

Falco

Wolf

Ivysaur

Charizard

Lucario

Ness

Lucas

Yup. That's all. And, I suppose I should explain the pivot:

1) Grab
2) Ground break
3) during the ending lag of Bowser's grab release, buffer an immediate pivot grab by smashing away from the enemy and grabbing back.
4) If done correctly they will be grabbed and you both will be moving backwards.

VIDEO: This video shows how the pivot is supposed to look when done correctly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNTfktgrsS8&

 

[Flayl]

Just saw this now. This needs a ground release to work? Bah.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Just saw this now. This needs a ground release to work? Bah.

Yes, and the timing of the pivot is pretty lame.

But it does look sexy when it you perfect the time though.

 

[pure_awesome]

Man, Bowser boards aren't very lively, eh?

I'll test it out in frame by frame soon, unless someone gets it first. However, even if this is found to be an infinite (which it seems like it is), I doubt it would find it's way into high level play, much like Ganondorf's chainchoke. It seems like it would require impossible reflexes on Bowser's part, since MK is the one that controls when he breaks out.

Why only FD and SV?

 

[Liquid Gen]

About MK's grab break, he is forced to airbreak when we do not hit him.

He is also forced to ground break while we continue to hit A to pummel.

But yes, frame by frame would definitley help us.

Well, the infinite is possible mainly on FD and SV, due to the platforms of Yoshi's and Battlefield, as the SV plat is easily maneuverable.

Of course, I suppose a well placed air break on BF can make it work as well. Changing. For the sake of simplicity, I'll just remove it period, lol.

 

[Flayl]

In other words this isn't even theoretically an infinite. False advertising

 

[Liquid Gen]

In other words this isn't even theoretically an infinite. False advertising

Explain.

10explains

 

[Flayl]

You can't force a ground break with Bowser.

 

[Liquid Gen]

On MK, it is possible; I have MK on control and am trying everything possible to get out, holding jump, holding up, tapping jump, tapping up, etc.

At least on MK anyway, rapidly pressing a forces a ground break.

Unless something is wrong?

 

[Flayl]

On MK, it is possible; I have MK on control and am trying everything possible to get out, holding jump, holding up, tapping jump, tapping up, etc.

At least on MK anyway, rapidly pressing a forces a ground break.

Unless something is wrong?

I don't know the exact timing, but there's a point in between bowser's pummel that characters can jump release out of. All you have to do is hold up while you mash, but like I said I don't know what's the window for jump release.

Otherwise we'd have an infinite on Ivysaur and some other people.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I did hold up, at varying speeds of pummeling as well.

However, for this chaingrab, I did continually press a, as fast as I could, and to the best of me or my friend's abilities the jump did not occur from MK.

Maybe its MK specific or not, as far as I can tell a forced ground break is possible on at least MK from rapidly pressing A.

 

[Flayl]

I tested with mashing A and holding up on a second controller. It's uncommon, but Meta Knight will jump release. It's "luck".

 

[Liquid Gen]

I did the same. It seems that norml rhythm pummeling is ineffective, as there is a visible frame where you can see Bowser in his ile grab position. So if you press it fast, like, real fast, that window is greatly reduced, making timing the jump break near impossible.

Oddly enough, sometimes while not pummeling after maybe 2 pummels, he did not jump break.

 

[MrEh]

It's possible to force a ground release. Watch your opponents mashing and time your pummel accordingly.

 

[B!squick]

This seems pretty leet. The pivot grab is like the salom smash, correct? Facing right, waggle left and lunge grab right?

 

[Liquid Gen]

Correct, and if done right, then you will barely move, but you will move back a little.

 

[B!squick]

Cool. How's my new sig, by the way?

 

[Liquid Gen]

Lol. Pretty nice.

I like the blur effect.

Oh, and this can give us infinites on Lucas/Ness as well.

 

[B!squick]

Oh yeah, they're bad at the release recovery aren't they. And wouldn't this include Wario too?

 

[MrEh]

Bowser's pivot grab would have to grab MK within 11 frames. Window seems small, or nonexistant.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Pivot grab grabs on frame 9, andthis is a very precisegrab.


It is however, completely possible.

 

[MrEh]

Pivot grab grabs on frame 9, andthis is a very precisegrab.


It is however, completely possible.

2 frames then...

If you can buffer it, then it might be possible. If it's possible, then it will be freakishly easy to do it to Ness and Lucas. Hell, I'm pretty sure you can walk and Dsmash them if you wanted.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I believe you have to buffer it anyway just to do it.

Regardless, this can also work on anybody who canbe GR jabbed; namely most of the cast excluding Ike, Yoshi, and Falcon.

 

[MrEh]

Or anyone too fat to run through and pviot grab. lol

 

[pure_awesome]

I don't see how it would be possible to buffer this. You would have to input the commands before MK actually broke out in order to do so, which is unlikely considering MK is the one who controls when he breaks out.

Though it might be possible to spam back->forward->Z so that you keep pummelling and input the grab no matter when he breaks out, but it's pretty unlikely you'll hit the buffer window and even then you run the risk of it buffering a Bthrow or Fthrow out of a pummel.

I recall hearing somewhere that normal human reaction time is about 10 frames. If that's at all accurate then this is going to be pretty much exactly like Ganondorf's chainchoke in terms of viability.

 

[B!squick]

There's a test for that. In milliseconds, not frames of course, that I posted in the match up thread a little while back. Most people posted times better than average.

Brawl players - 1
Normal people - 0

 

[pure_awesome]

I'm fairly sure that 1 frame corresponds to 1/60th of a second in Brawl terms.

So it would be fairly easy to make the conversion, if you ever decide to dig it up.

 

[B!squick]

Here's the test. Average is 215ms.

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php'


EDIT: Maths indicate 1 frame is about .016 of a second or 16ms. If my further maths are correct that would mean that the average person reacts at about 13.4375 frames. It would seem that your earlier estimate of 10 frames was giving the average person too much credit.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Oh yeah, they're bad at the release recovery aren't they. And wouldn't this include Wario too?

I thought you could already infinite wario?

Also, PLZ work!

 

[B!squick]

Indeed. So this works on Wario by default. :D

 

[LuLLo]

People ''complain'' that you can't buffer it correctly, but at the time the release occurs and you are both in lag, can't you buffer it at that point?

 

[Liquid Gen]

Personally, I've been able to pull off the grab several times, so it isn't completely out of place for a Brawl player (my reaction time is actually less than normal).

 

[Flayl]

There's a point during the start of the grab release animation where you can't do anything, it gives ample time for a gamer to react and buffer a dash grab. Haven't practiced the pivot grab, but I'm sure it's very possible.

 

[Liquid Gen]

This is looking better and better.

 

[sniperworm]

Here's the test. Average is 215ms.

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php'


EDIT: Maths indicate 1 frame is about .016 of a second or 16ms. If my further maths are correct that would mean that the average person reacts at about 13.4375 frames. It would seem that your earlier estimate of 10 frames was giving the average person too much credit.

Perhaps his 10 frames was referring to simply recognizing something. Maybe it takes the average person 3.4375 frames to click a mouse.

This infinite sounds awesome. Besides, even if you screw up the timing for the pummels and he jump breaks can't you just run up and regrab him (then slowly drag him all the way back with pivot grabs).

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't see how it would be possible to buffer this. You would have to input the commands before MK actually broke out in order to do so, which is unlikely considering MK is the one who controls when he breaks out.

Though it might be possible to spam back->forward->Z so that you keep pummelling and input the grab no matter when he breaks out, but it's pretty unlikely you'll hit the buffer window and even then you run the risk of it buffering a Bthrow or Fthrow out of a pummel.

I recall hearing somewhere that normal human reaction time is about 10 frames. If that's at all accurate then this is going to be pretty much exactly like Ganondorf's chainchoke in terms of viability.

Actually, normal people react slower, however, reflexes are trainable, and about 7 frames is the fastest humanly possible. Remember, this is at the top of the metagame, so 7 frames is our benchmark.


That said, the average gamer reacts faster, myself I couldn't pull this off yet (I'm I believe, 9 and change, which is effectively equivalent to 10), but if bowser players improve enough, they should be able to pull it off.

 

[|RK|]

How do I take the test?

Oh, and it figures that Bowser would have to become the first legitimate counter to MK. Such a young metagame. Bet you Bowser mains are happy. I hope that this works out!

 

[Liquid Gen]

As I believe Flayl said, this is basically the same as GR to dash regrab. Just with a pivot, of course.

and RK I have been saying that since like December rofl. finally got something to help make it bloom now though.

 

[Remzi]

In case anyone wants the formula

Reaction time in 60 FPS:
m = reaction time in milliseconds

.6 x m = Reaction time in 60 FPS

So I react in roughly 10.5 frames.

GL with this bowsers, i hope it works.

 

[adumbrodeus]

In case anyone wants the formula

Reaction time in 60 FPS:
m = reaction time in milliseconds

.6 x m = Reaction time in 60 FPS

So I react in roughly 10.5 frames.

GL with this bowsers, i hope it works.

Which means 11 frames, Brawl (and games in general) shift mid-frame inputs to the next whole frame.