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Good Lord Above...

Dre89

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Teran- Deism is a belief in an impersonal God. Everything I said relates to that. If you don't believe in an impersonal God then you're not really a deist.

El Nino- I'm not saying people can't be convenience Christians, but it makes the religion look unsophisticated and unintelligent. The problem is it provides a straw man for skeptics to criticise.

Also, because of the abundance of convenience Christians, many skeptcs who bash religion don't actually learn about it, which then becomes a pain for the sophisticated theists to deal with.

I understand that people have the right to believe what they want, but that doesn't mean they don't damage the image of others.
 
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You know you can ascribe to a certain belief set without the associated bull**** around it, right? Saying "I agree with some of what jesus said" and then calling yourself a christian is like agreeing that Hitler was right when he said things like "respect your parents" and becoming a nazi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARwqm83k2Zg <-relevant imo

inb4godwin'slaw
That doesn't frustrate you that I'm doing that, does it?
 
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That doesn't frustrate you that I'm doing that, does it?
I'm really curious as to why you feel the need to further associate yourself with an organization that has supported and perpetrated mass murder and persecution, as well as genocide and exile (and ****!) of entire tribes under the orders of god, and additionally has done so with absolutely no proof that their god ever existed, and whose very founding tenant has no basis in observable reality. :)
 

MK26

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He might be just refering to the King James Bible?
the point still stands - the kjb was translated from the original languages of the bible
kinda hard to mistranslate the entire book library in one go

Actually the bible has lots of texts that were discluded from certain bibles. Some have parts that others leave out.I don't believe any of them actually have all of it in them. This website explains what i mean.

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/outside.stm
just because someone wrote a book about jesus doesnt mean it's biblical
and most modern bibles will mention 'in this other version, verse 32 is not written' or 'verse 21 does not occur in early versions of the bible' (and therefore was probably added at a later date)
doesnt make the whole thing wrong

I'm really curious as to why you feel the need to further associate yourself with an organization that has supported and perpetrated mass murder and persecution, as well as genocide and exile (and ****!) of entire tribes under the orders of god, and additionally has done so with absolutely no proof that their god ever existed, and whose very founding tenant has no basis in observable reality. :)
*frothing at the mouth*
 

§witch

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Omni, if you believe the bible is an innaccurate book, why believe in Christianity at all? You can believe in an all knowing-all loving god without Christianity.
 

MK26

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Back then? As in, 'the time when some dude named Jesus was walking around claiming to be the Son of God and starting a religion around said God, and whose followers said they saw him alive and well after he had been crucified'? That's not proof/evidence/something that should be looked into?
 
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I'm really curious as to why you feel the need to further associate yourself with an organization that has supported and perpetrated mass murder and persecution, as well as genocide and exile (and ****!) of entire tribes under the orders of god, and additionally has done so with absolutely no proof that their god ever existed, and whose very founding tenant has no basis in observable reality. :)
You seem a bit frustrated. Did RDK hack your account? :troll:

Bad jokes aside... I'm just one of the branches of the tree of Christianity, in some ways holding many different beliefs than say a fundamentalist Christian.
I'm into Liberal Christianity, Universalist at that, and there's always questions all around as to why I associate myself with Christianity itself.
Actually, that's only happened on this forum because there's hardcore religion haters trying to disprove everything. (On a Smash forum.)

You could honestly say the same for a large majority of religions... I know Christianity has never proven God exists and has it's past flaws and atrocities. Islam and Judaism also have this "God whom has never been proven to exist", Buddhism has no proof of these levels of Enlightenment, Wicca has no proof of Nature actually aiding them in their ways, and so on and so forth.
I'm not criticizing these religions by the way, it's kind of just a comparison to show that religion doesn't need scientific proof, unlike a lot of people believe. It all comes down to faith, and what's really on the deepest psychological level of a person is what matters most.

Why look at the past? Do Christians commit war and **** these days? I'm sure some people who call themselves Christians do, as humans will be humans, but the large majority don't. Such behaviour is punished these days, and it will continue to be as human civilisation progresses. Just because some horrible things occurred a thousand years ago, maybe all the way up to one hundred years ago, it doesn't seem right to throw something off because those things happened, unless of course the association continues to do those things.
Believe me, I do feel humiliated sometimes at the way Christianity is portrayed and the way some of us act...

If anything, I could just retort and ask why you associate yourself with... Almost anything at all. I'm sure whatever you may associate yourself with would have something bad in it's background.

Are you Atheist?

Omni, if you believe the bible is an innaccurate book, why believe in Christianity at all? You can believe in an all knowing-all loving god without Christianity.
I believe the Bible is a potentially inaccurate book with divine revelations.
And I know I can believe in such a God without Christianity, but it's really just some sort of inner call that I'll have a difficult time explaining in words, but I'll try my best.
Yes, I know I'm lacking in evidence, but to explain an inner belief to others with evidence is faulty at best.
 

Rychu

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My Question is: Do we have to be religious to believe in god/ a creator?

I call myself a Christian simply because I believe Jesus was an intelligent man who laid down some ground rules and formed what has brought billions happiness and purpose. I have beliefs in what God is/isn't that most would find crazy and unrealistic (on both sides, religious and athiest). Maybe I'll blog about it. The point is that judging someone soley on religious views is a horrible way to judge intelligence, as intelligence comes in all forms.
 
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Please don't go there. He'll tear that argument apart.
Alright, I won't.

I call myself a Christian simply because I believe Jesus was an intelligent man who laid down some ground rules and formed what has brought billions happiness and purpose. I have beliefs in what God is/isn't that most would find crazy and unrealistic (on both sides, religious and athiest. Maybe I'll blog about it. The point is that judging someone soley on religious views is a horrible way to judge intelligence, as intelligence comes in all forms.
This.
 

The Good Doctor

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My Question is: Do we have to be religious to believe in god/ a creator?

I call myself a Christian simply because I believe Jesus was an intelligent man who laid down some ground rules and formed what has brought billions happiness and purpose. I have beliefs in what God is/isn't that most would find crazy and unrealistic (on both sides, religious and athiest). Maybe I'll blog about it. The point is that judging someone soley on religious views is a horrible way to judge intelligence, as intelligence comes in all forms.
One of the only exceptions to this i believe are Southern Baptists...
 

Pogogo

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Oh no please dont flame me. Not on the internet.

It is entirely untrue to say muslims will get angry at you for bad talking islam or mohammed. I have a muslim friend and we have discussions all the time and not only is he a nice guy, he doesnt get mad, cause hes a nice guy. No strings attached.

I agree with the intelligence thing. Its discrimintaion. Even fundamentalism does not equal stupidity, even if it is "stupid". Its like saying love is stupid. It sure as hell is. But even the smartest people love.

People who say "part of the problem" are part of the problem :p for hypocracy
 

El Nino

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I'm hoping there will be no flames and personal insults thrown about in this thread.

I'm really curious as to why you feel the need to further associate yourself with an organization that has supported and perpetrated mass murder and persecution, as well as genocide and exile (and ****!) of entire tribes under the orders of god, and additionally has done so with absolutely no proof that their god ever existed, and whose very founding tenant has no basis in observable reality. :)
To be fair, when you do just about anything in society, you become part of a group, and that group is going to have a history, and it is probably not a good one. I guess what I'm saying is I don't see what's wrong with someone trying to redefine something that has a horrendous moral reputation. Imo, those things might be in need of being redefined.

Also, the Nazi analogy was too convenient, I think. Try replacing "Nazi" with "American," or "British," or "Spanish," because those groups were responsible for even worse genocide, slavery, and ethnic violence against Indigenous, African, and Asian people. And ask yourself if it's possible for someone who identifies as an American to make that label mean something else other than genocide, slavery, oil wars, war via proxy, and the supporting power behind brutal regimes in various other countries. Or should Americans who disagree with their country's policies just get up and leave? When is a religion or a nation worth taking back from those who have run its name into the ground?

/not a member of the teaparty I'm serious
 

Sucumbio

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Having lived literally 2 blocks from the WBC's compound I can tell you they are not your prototypical Southern Baptists. Not to mention that's in Kansas which is mostly Catholic, and of course, in the Mid-West. Now that I live in Mississippi, I can attest to the prevalence of Southern Baptism and their influence. For the most part they are generous, caring and good natured, hardworking people. That's what SOILD's saying. If you were referring to the one odd-ball then it's better to just say them instead of "Southern Baptists" who account for a gigantic population as opposed to a dirty handful.
 

The Good Doctor

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Having lived literally 2 blocks from the WBC's compound I can tell you they are not your prototypical Southern Baptists. Not to mention that's in Kansas which is mostly Catholic, and of course, in the Mid-West. Now that I live in Mississippi, I can attest to the prevalence of Southern Baptism and their influence. For the most part they are generous, caring and good natured, hardworking people. That's what SOILD's saying. If you were referring to the one odd-ball then it's better to just say them instead of "Southern Baptists" who account for a gigantic population as opposed to a dirty handful.
I'm refering to the Westboro Baptist Church.
Which on their website mention things such as

"The only true Nazis in this world are ***s"
"Barack Obama is the Antichrist, and that he forms an Unholy Trinity with Satan and Pope Benedict XVI"
"in His retaliatory rage God is killing Americans with Muslim IEDs"
"God hates gays above all other kinds of "sinners and that homosexuality should be a capital crime"

They are also the people who protest military funerals....

Yeah, great people.

Yes, those quotes are from their Wiki. It mentions however that these beliefs are on their website
 
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"The only true Nazis in this world are ***s"
"Barack Obama is the Antichrist, and that he forms an Unholy Trinity with Satan and Pope Benedict XVI"
"in His retaliatory rage God is killing Americans with Muslim IEDs"
"God hates gays above all other kinds of "sinners and that homosexuality should be a capital crime"



I mean I strive to accept as many beliefs as I can but this is just...

It doesn't even seem like beliefs, it's just outlandish theories.
 
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You seem a bit frustrated. Did RDK hack your account? :troll:
Oh I've been like this for several months, actually. :laugh:

Bad jokes aside... I'm just one of the branches of the tree of Christianity, in some ways holding many different beliefs than say a fundamentalist Christian.
I'm into Liberal Christianity, Universalist at that, and there's always questions all around as to why I associate myself with Christianity itself.
Actually, that's only happened on this forum because there's hardcore religion haters trying to disprove everything. (On a Smash forum.)
It's mostly me. While I'm not exactly a "fundamentalist atheist" (or gnostic atheist), as that position is, for a rationalist (i.e. most atheists), completely untenable, I am certainly a "fundamentalist antitheist" for various reasons.

You could honestly say the same for a large majority of religions... I know Christianity has never proven God exists and has it's past flaws and atrocities. Islam and Judaism also have this "God whom has never been proven to exist", Buddhism has no proof of these levels of Enlightenment, Wicca has no proof of Nature actually aiding them in their ways, and so on and so forth.
I'm not criticizing these religions by the way, it's kind of just a comparison to show that religion doesn't need scientific proof, unlike a lot of people believe. It all comes down to faith, and what's really on the deepest psychological level of a person is what matters most.
It comes down to faith, but when you reject one of the most basic tenants of a religion (belief in its holy book) and there is no true advantage to belonging to that religion, and that religion is known for brutalities, censorship, racism, homophobia, and violence, EVEN TO TODAY, why cling to it?

Why look at the past? Do Christians commit war and **** these days? I'm sure some people who call themselves Christians do, as humans will be humans, but the large majority don't. Such behaviour is punished these days, and it will continue to be as human civilisation progresses. Just because some horrible things occurred a thousand years ago, maybe all the way up to one hundred years ago, it doesn't seem right to throw something off because those things happened, unless of course the association continues to do those things.
Believe me, I do feel humiliated sometimes at the way Christianity is portrayed and the way some of us act...
Why look at the past? If you see a man with a shaved scalp, a swastika tattooed on his forehead, and a brown uniform, do you think "what a pillar of society"? There's a reason said group has those associations. In christianity (and Islam), it's not just a group that hijacked a religion's good name and used it to produce atrocities that go against the religion itself. It's the very basis of the religion, its holy text, given to us "by god himself" that condones and supports these actions-slavery, genocide, capital punishment, homophobia...

If anything, I could just retort and ask why you associate yourself with... Almost anything at all. I'm sure whatever you may associate yourself with would have something bad in it's background.

Are you Atheist?
Yes, because there's no difference between performing atrocities because there is no god, and performing atrocities despite there being no god. :) Just to be clear, if Stalin was a christian, I would not ride around on that fact because his mass murders and oppressive political regime would have absolutely nothing to do with him being christian. In Hitler's case, it can in fact be argued that his christian beliefs influenced his writings and his atrocities, but I'll be nice and agree that, despite Hitler being christian, I'm not hanging that one on Christianity because it was correlation, not causation.

Go back to the witch huntings, and you'll find it all coming from... the bible. "Thou Shalt Not Suffer A Witch To Live." Go back to the genocides of the Canaan and Hittite peoples in the bible, and you'll see that they were at god's command.


I believe the Bible is a potentially inaccurate book with divine revelations.
This sentence confuses me... Divine revelations, but inaccurate?

And I know I can believe in such a God without Christianity, but it's really just some sort of inner call that I'll have a difficult time explaining in words, but I'll try my best.
Yes, I know I'm lacking in evidence, but to explain an inner belief to others with evidence is faulty at best.
I'll agree with this last sentence, but the one above... Meh. Rejecting the central tenants of the religion itself... At what point does it become christianity in name only?

<entirely disputable and widely disputed historical claim>
You were saying?
 
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So are you honestly trying to throw me off of a belief?
I'm trying to get you to turn on that mass of cells between your ears. I'm showing you in the best ways I know how that your belief is irrational and pointless; it's up to you to throw yourself off of a train of poor reasoning. Or are you going to claim you "can't change your belief" or some bogus claim like that?

I think he's more curious as to why you blindly follow something you know little to none about.
Which is a very good question.
This. Blind faith is extremely dangerous.
 
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It comes down to faith, but when you reject one of the most basic tenants of a religion (belief in its holy book) and there is no true advantage to belonging to that religion, and that religion is known for brutalities, censorship, racism, homophobia, and violence, EVEN TO TODAY, why cling to it?
I never stated that I rejected the Bible. I still hold it as having potential. The reason I don't follow it fanatically is because there are things in there that were meant to be interpreted instead of literally carried out. I.e. "Gouge your eyes out if they see sin."...

I mean really? I'm not taking that kitchen knife and gouging my eyes out because I've been to 4chan or something.

And I don't see why you're continuing this "belonging to a religion with a violent background" argument. You can apply that to nations and other affiliations as well. What Sucumbio said, if I recall.



Why look at the past? If you see a man with a shaved scalp, a swastika tattooed on his forehead, and a brown uniform, do you think "what a pillar of society"? There's a reason said group has those associations. In christianity (and Islam), it's not just a group that hijacked a religion's good name and used it to produce atrocities that go against the religion itself. It's the very basis of the religion, its holy text, given to us "by god himself" that condones and supports these actions-slavery, genocide, capital punishment, homophobia...
Those particular reasons are why I don't have full belief and put full faith into the Bible. Again, I'm not rejecting it, as some of the things in there are intended to teach humans good, and don't bring up how "it only has anti such-and-such", because the Bible isn't filled to the brim with atrocities.
I think you're generalising a bit when it comes to Christians. You think a lot of Christians are fanatical Bible-thumpers that follow every word and, if they don't believe in a few parts, then they're suddenly not Christians. That is not true. There is a VERY wide variety of Christians in this world (1+ billion if I'm correct?), each having their own beliefs, whether blind or not. Some beliefs are considered blind by some people, but that's their opinion in that take. Someone in the WBC would condemn me straight to hell because of such and such reasons. Other Christians would not because of other such and such reasons.

I have a friend who constantly talks about God and her faith in Him, and I believe she does read the Bible. However, she has a homosexual friend, and accepts people around her. She's going against the Bible, thus is she not a Christian?
She says that it isn't a religion, it's faith.
I just can't come to accept the fact that the Bible is the direct word of God, because, again, God is the omnibenevolent being here, and having some of the words and paragraphs in this book be His word just can't happen.


Yes, because there's no difference between performing atrocities because there is no god, and performing atrocities despite there being no god.
I don't understand this. Either way in this situation, it's suggested that God doesn't exist, so why do you bring it up?

Go back to the witch huntings, and you'll find it all coming from... the bible. "Thou Shalt Not Suffer A Witch To Live." Go back to the genocides of the Canaan and Hittite peoples in the bible, and you'll see that they were at god's command.
Again, me disagreeing with parts of the Bible. Guess that makes me not a Christian. My friend also disagrees with this, along with many other Christians I've met. Guess we're not Christians.
It just seems you're condemning Christians these days because of past atrocities. That just doesn't work, man.

______

I'm glad that this is a debate instead of a flat out flame war.
Also glad that this thread isn't nothing but religious butthurt.
 

The Good Doctor

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Again, me disagreeing with parts of the Bible. Guess that makes me not a Christian. My friend also disagrees with this, along with many other Christians I've met. Guess we're not Christians.
It just seems you're condemning Christians these days because of past atrocities. That just doesn't work, man.
That's called picking certain parts of the bible and leaving others behind.
Taking life lessons from the Bible is one thing, but when you call yourself Christian for it is entirely different
 
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I never stated that I rejected the Bible. I still hold it as having potential. The reason I don't follow it fanatically is because there are things in there that were meant to be interpreted instead of literally carried out. I.e. "Gouge your eyes out if they see sin."...

I mean really? I'm not taking that kitchen knife and gouging my eyes out because I've been to 4chan or something.
Those particular reasons are why I don't have full belief and put full faith into the Bible. Again, I'm not rejecting it, as some of the things in there are intended to teach humans good, and don't bring up how "it only has anti such-and-such", because the Bible isn't filled to the brim with atrocities.

I just can't come to accept the fact that the Bible is the direct word of God, because, again, God is the omnibenevolent being here, and having some of the words and paragraphs in this book be His word just can't happen.
Here's my problem. I find a logical contradiction in accepting only pieces of a book which both by its very nature and its content demands that you accept the entire thing. This makes no sense to me; you could do this to literally anything and get almost whatever you want out of it. I'm willing to bet I could get similar results by using your strategy on Mein Kampf; would that make my new strain of National Socialism legitimate? No, of course not! It would not be National Socialism! The individual words/verses in a book do not make up its content, and your picture of "semi-biblical faith" seems to be based, for the most part, on removing anything in a book which itself claims to be perfect and an absolute moral code that you dislike... And using the rest as a moral code. This is amazingly bad reasoning. Again, I ask: at this point, why even bother with the bible? If you have to throw out half of the damn thing to get anywhere at all, it's a good sign that something is wrong.

I get the idea of a metaphor; I understand that that verse is meant to be interpreted. But then there are the things which make absolutely no sense if not taken literally. Most of Deuteronomy and Leviticus belongs to this category. Care to reinterpret "Homosexuality is an abomination"?

And I don't see why you're continuing this "belonging to a religion with a violent background" argument. You can apply that to nations and other affiliations as well. What Sucumbio said, if I recall.
Even if I drop that, the problems of faith persist. And furthermore, associating this with nations or affiliations is fallacious for various reasons:
-Movement. Can you change "America" on your own? Could a massive group do it? Not really likely. You cannot move the term away from its associated location.
-Ease of change. If you dislike America to the point that you cannot morally associate yourself with it, you go to other countries... and you're still an american. Some can't even go to other countries, due to the prohibiting expenses and culture shock involved. This gets even better when you consider race, which absolutely cannot be changed at all.
-etc.


Again, me disagreeing with parts of the Bible. Guess that makes me not a Christian. My friend also disagrees with this, along with many other Christians I've met. Guess we're not Christians.
I don't understand why you would begin to call yourselves Christians. If I may, again, it's like taking only the parts of Mein Kampf that you like and calling yourselves Nazis. You may be wonderful, wonderful people, and you may hold on to the belief in the moderate and loving parts of the book at hand, but guess what: you're still a nazi. And you still have to deal with all the rest. Instead of, you know, taking the good out of the bible and founding a new religion off of it that doesn't contain the sickening history of the old.

Where I can understand someone calling themselves christians are, for the most part, the bible fundamentalists, who (at least to some degree) take the bible very seriously. But the rest, the people who are kind of ho-hum about it... Yes, I find the Nazi comparison fair.

It just seems you're condemning Christians these days because of past atrocities. That just doesn't work, man.
Sure it does! If you choose to affiliate yourself with a group which is known for pushing intolerance, slavery, and genocide, IN THE NAME OF SAID GROUP'S MORAL AUTHORITY, then it is entirely your fault when you get a poor name because of it. And I see no reason why you should begin to associate yourself with this group.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I mentioned in a post right after wards that I made a mistake.
If you had read the whole thread you would have seen that.
Wait, you quoted it.... So you have no reason to be confused...
He's not confused, he's saying your original point was wrong. No one's defending the views of the Westboro Baptist Church, Sucumbio was saying that you needed to specify your post, because Southern Baptist=/=WBC member.
 

Rychu

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Of course we're forgetting that the bible has had numerous omissions and additions in the last few millennia
 

The Good Doctor

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He's not confused, he's saying your original point was wrong. No one's defending the views of the Westboro Baptist Church, Sucumbio was saying that you needed to specify your post, because Southern Baptist=/=WBC member.
I clearly said that I was thinking of the WBC the post after. I obviously know WBC =/=SB
 

MK26

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You were saying?
Which part?

Let's look at my post again: 'the time when some dude named Jesus was walking around claiming to be the Son of God and starting a religion around said God, and whose followers said they saw him alive and well after he had been crucified'

Was it the part where some dude named Jesus was walking around?
where he claimed to be the Son of God?
where he started a religion?
where he was crucified?
where his followers said they saw him alive after said crucifixion?

Where in there is your widely disputed claim?
 
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