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Gliding over tall buildings in a single shuttle loop: The Meta Knight Social

Chesstiger2612

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U-throw gets boosted by the platforms so you can get converts with a shuttle loop or up-air -> shuttle loop earlier. B-throw and f-throw are indeed worse on WarioWare, you might switch to a mix of up and down-throw here. If they tech and avoid the up-air you can nair after it because of the IASA. You just have to space it that you are still not landing on the platform. It is similar to Brawls frametraps.
WarioWare is indeed making the escape by running away worse. You will have to use either platforms to escape or shield (MK has fairly good OoS), roll or spot dodge. Just putting out a SHFFL nair helps against overaggressive players. The runaway would, in many cases, be better on other stages, but thats just one of the bad points about the stage. I wasn't saying it is MK's favourite stage. The assistance against projectiles makes up for it though in most matchups.
 

sneakytako

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Idk I just really hate that stage. I will almost always choose a different char on Wario Ware. I think that stage is awful for MK.
 

Lawn Chair

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Metaknight's best stage is Skyloft, WarioWare, because MK's kill potential off the top and side blastzones. Now this is not to say it's not a double edge sword because MK is extremely floaty that can work in others favor. But he has the tools to prevent from dying and to kill keeping the opponent in the air or tech chasing them over and over. Also @ sneakytako sneakytako you don't need to attack to apply pressure positional pressure is just as good as attacking pressure.
 

sneakytako

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Like Skyloft and Wario Ware are total polar opposites, except for maybe they have shorter blastzones off the top.

I can play big stages, I love being able to run around and tech chase and kill stuff. But if you said that FoD and Yoshi's Story are the best neutrals because they have short blastzones I call blasphemy.
 

Lawn Chair

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You're talking from play style perspective, I'm trying to help other MK mains by telling them the actually fact. The Pluses outweigh the negatives.
 
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9bit

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I'm having a bit of difficulty getting my mind/fingers wrapped around a certain technique, so I figured I'd see if anybody here has gone through this or knows what I'm talking about and has like a trick or suggestion or something.

This is for Dimensional Cape. If you hit down-B then push the control stick in the opposite direction of the one you were facing and the C-stick in the direction you were facing, you'll warp forward a little bit and slash the opposite direction you were facing. Hopefully that makes sense. It's basically like, if there was an opponent directly in front of you, you would warp behind them and slash them in the back.

If you're facing right it means you hit down-B, then hold Left on the control stick and Right on the C-stick. If you're facing left it means you hold Right on the control stick and Left on the C-stick. Common knowledge right.

But another, more useful, application of this (I think) is when you're holding ledge your opponent is coming back. If they are forced to land on stage, you can fall-back aerial jump and do this trick to quickly appear on the other side of them and slash them right back off the stage. I want to get better at doing this, but often times my hands do the wrong thing. Like I'll push the C-stick in the direction I want to end up attacking (a hangup from using the C-stick for aerials and smash attacks I'm sure) instead of the direction I want to shift. Which really screws the whole thing up because it puts me off stage.

So, I'm asking anyone here if they have maybe a mental trick to make sure they do it right all the time (because the stick positions change depending on what direction you're facing) or if you just forced yourself into muscle-memory or something.
 
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SpiderMad

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Someone needs to make a video on how down-b works
 
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sneakytako

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You're talking from play style perspective, I'm trying to help other MK mains by telling them the actually fact. The Pluses outweigh the negatives.
Well then let me ask you this. Do you think Yoshi's Story and FoD are not as good as Wario Ware? If so, why?
 
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Chesstiger2612

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@ sneakytako sneakytako
FoD and Yoshi's Story are not as good as WarioWare because the platform setup doesn't help you that much. MK's up air, arguably his best combo move, is hitting the opponent up and 2 platforms directly above each other are a good thing for his up-air. Yoshi's Story is a bad inbetween case. The blast zones are far enough away to let you not have the enhanced kill potential that much (with things like d-smash at the edge which won't work there anymore) but MK as secondlightest character still dies extremely early. Plus the thing with the platforms. Yoshi's should be a ban in many matchups. Concerning FoD, the stage isn't bad for MK but not great either. Two of the three platforms aren't there sometimes or barely provide any assistance because of the low height difference. The other one is out of MK's reach because of his jumps being not for example Falco's. Combos between those platforms are very situational, in contrast to stages like Battlefield or WarioWare. The far blast zones help MK a bit because now his recovery weighs in.

@ Lawn Chair Lawn Chair
MK has so many different playstyles and I also don't manage all of them yet, so can you please give some stage rankings? I generally feel stage choice isn't that important for MK because he can choose between many playstyles and many factors neutralize each other leading to stages with advantages and disadvantages, while with most characters they tend to add up to a good / bad stage. Also, if possible, try to do it more matchup-based (that was the point where my first stage ranking post failed ^^), mainly because of that controversity between good and bad factors. They mean more in some and less in other matchups. Maybe mentioning briefly which style you should go on which stage would also be nice, but first I would be interested in such a ranking itself.


This thread didn't have any consensus concerning stages yet so hearing different opinions is probably the best way to go.
 

SpiderMad

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As bad as Yoshis may seem to MK for his weak weight, it's still one of the funner stages for me to move around on.
 

9bit

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Can MK's down-B only travel in 8 directions? I haven't been able to get an angle between control stick notches to do anything. But it might be because I'm bad.
 

sneakytako

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Ranking a stagelist might prove difficult, really depends on the MU.

Although we might be able to categorize them into groups like big hitboxes/strong KB = Avoid small stages, High mobility, Strong recovery = Avoid Dreamland etc.
 

JABS

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Someone needs to make a video on how down-b works
Hey, the video about the Cape Recovery won't just be about the technique, it'll also be about all the cool stuff you can do with DC, be it the good or the risky. I might put everything into one video, I might make separate videos. Just know it'll be in there.
 

Chesstiger2612

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Nice video @ Lawn Chair Lawn Chair , proud of you^^
Huge post incoming, addressing some of the community work, grab game, spacing etc. you mention.
First, I think it is good to mention the angles at which the moves best for spacing have the most range. So, for fair it is 90°, so directly to the side MK is facing. In a practical situatio that would mean you would for example input the falling fair later than against big characters to get the optimal angle on their nearest hurtbox. For nair, it is slightly downward, maybe a 70° angle (because of the outer sword spin starting there). If you use nair to space (of course not when pressuring because then you normally use the inner hitbox) if you are slightly over the character you space against it works best, so you want to have the most extended opponent's huurtbox at that specific angle.
You mention the spacie matchups for the use of the defensive Meta Knight, but as result of the trandescent hitboxes lasers still get through the retreating fair wall. If you are near enough, projectiles in general are punishable so that helps you there but always be aware that you have to face projectiles as soon as the range between you and your opponent increases again.
I completely agree about up-smashand its uses.
Then, next would be the grab-oriented Meta Knight. I would barely use f-throw, except for edgeguarding purposes. All that up-b followups you mention can also result from d-throw. B-throw is a read on 45% onwards on mediumweight/fallspeed when d-throw gets incredibly worse because you just have no followups on DI away + techroll away. B-throw counters DI away with turn around full jump fair, also nair is possible. D-throw is still the best on low %s and against characters with bad techrolls. With d-throw and b-throw guessing you can at least sometimes get something. Now lets discuss u-throw.
A bit of percentage data on up-throw. Percentage windows are normally like 5-10% wide in each direction. The first percentage number refers to a followup on same height, so u-throw->up-b, up-throw->nair and up-throw->fair should work here, at higher percents, so with more hitstun, also up-throw->fastfall->up-air/back-air. As characters to test against I took Fox, Link and Jiggs as examples for fastfaller, medium and floatie, also MK because mirror matchups are always important if you want to understand your own character. Note the percentage given is correct before the throw, not directly before the followup.
Fox - 80%
Jiggs - 0% (base knockback is enough here)
MK - 55%
Link - 30%
In my opinion more rewarding is the case if your opponents is in that way over you that jump -> up-air will get him because up-air should always lead to more and if you get an up-b after that this could already be a finisher.
Fox - 110-140%
Jiggs - 25-50%
MK - 75-105%
Link - 60-85%
On the first and last percents the knockback angle is screwed up so there may be no direct followup but still some positional advantage, the mid of the percentage window given is best for combos.
The conclusion: On really floaty characters, up-throw as soon as d-throw isn't good anymore and try multi up-airs and nairs, maybe finishing with an up-b. Because Jiggs is an extreme, most floaties will have good up-throw->jump->up-air->more at around 50%, so when d-throw should be replaced. Same goes for medium fallspeed, except that they should do maybe a u-throw->nair/fair (shuttle loop has a long time until you can land again and won't kill) first and at u-throw->jump->followup at higher percents. Around 40-60% the b-throw mixup is also a solid option because they probably expect d-throw and DI away. Against fastfallers, u-throw->up-b is a kill move (note that Fox would, dependent on the staling, be somewhere around 105% after the up-b and that is probably a kill). Against MK's kind of fastfalling, linking a jump->up-air into up-b is more likely to work. Until the percentage is reached, d-throw b-throw guess game is an option against fastfallers, or, u-throw->dair, works only if enough hitstun is applied, I would't recommend it before 60%, and it can be a solid mixup with high reward. If they start SDIing it, b-throw d-throw guesses are better again.
Also d-throw techchases aren't fully developed yet (or at least, I don't see people doing what they could, because some people are probably aware of the options).
No tech, near: f-tilt reset, charged DCape punish.
Somewhat more away: D-smash. Covers tech without roll, techroll in your direction and no-tech.
Tech without roll: Instant dimensional Cape or regrab, depending on percentage (if they are getting out of good grab percentages, do the Cape, otherwise regrab)
You catch them before they hit ground: Your choice, probably regrab is mostly the best because CC is often a problem but you have tons of options.
Techroll towards you: Regrab or d-smash or sth. Also many options.
Techroll away: Run at them regrab at lower %s, at a bit higher %s downward angled side-b works better than you would expect (!), not an easy timing and not possible at some weight/fallspeed/percentage combinations, but implementing it will buff your techchasing game.
 

Omni

You can't break those cuffs.
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So I've been avoiding MK like the plague just because over my overusage of him in Brawl (duh).

Anyway, picked him for the first time last night and holy ****. Everything felt so natural. It was like reuniting with your ex that you left but had amazing sex with after several years.
 

Lawn Chair

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So I've been avoiding MK like the plague just because over my overusage of him in Brawl (duh).

Anyway, picked him for the first time last night and holy ****. Everything felt so natural. It was like reuniting with your ex that you left but had amazing sex with after several years.
ummm...
 

sneakytako

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So I've been avoiding MK like the plague just because over my overusage of him in Brawl (duh).

Anyway, picked him for the first time last night and holy ****. Everything felt so natural. It was like reuniting with your ex that you left but had amazing sex with after several years.
my thoughts exactly
 

Chesstiger2612

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Hmm... in which situations specifically? I'm not strictly against it but I didn't see the great deal in it yet? Is it also a DI towards you trap, because d-throw is too
 

sneakytako

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I think you undervalue upthrow nair. If you sour spot it can lead to more grabs.

I generally stay at the lower range of percents around 30-50 depending on weight to make it happen. If they DI really hard backward I can hit them with a bair sometimes.
 

Chesstiger2612

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You mean the diagonal downward spin hitbox? I see your point, but good DI on the nair will stop followups (except for fastfallers, here you have a point). Up-throw bair on DI backward hard should work, but why would they DI backward hard? Both seem to be more of a hard read, probably good against someone trying to adapt to your basic mindgames so you have to use the non-basic options
 

Chesstiger2612

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Need to do more testing, but full jump nair on the platforms of battlefield instalanded when holding down on a few nair timings. This could lead to guaranteed punishes on shield, because I think you can't do anything against either grab afterwards or drop->up-air->jump->nair instacancel repeat for maximum shield pressure. Could work on more platforms too possibly.

Also I think MK has the best neutral game escapes, I am currently practicing escaping the situation as soon as neutral game loss is more probable than neutral game win. With pivot d-smash/f-tilt, turnaround IDCape and just runaway to the ledge and wait it out until you can get back on safely, he has so many options to choose from. Should be a big tool against characters with devastating punishes, where being extremely cautious is the best thing.

For combos, if you are following an opponent and are passing a platform doing an IDCape ledgecancel increases your momentum and is faster than dash->jump or just holding a horizontal direction, moving with MK's relatively low horizontal aerial mobility.
 

SpiderMad

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I too was testing with some of his weird, mostly nair, instalands that would otherwise pass through the platforms and works on PS2. There was also something on BF with FH Fair when having more forward motion would allow you more height enough to get wavelands ont he plaforms after it (and even an up-air maybe) where as if you did FH Fair without running motion over the platform you couldnt get the WL out in time even if it was frame perfect just the same(i believe i was testing with buffer at the time so im pretty certain when its frame perfect, though im not certain on what causes the percieved differences in what i described)
 
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Lawn Chair

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Uthrow to jump up-b on jiggs kills her at 70% on every legal stage LMAOOOO
 

Chesstiger2612

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@ SpiderMad SpiderMad Do you know if those cancels are normal landings and landing lag is applied or if they work differently (like those zero-lag lands with Snake's up-b) and you can act instantly
 

SpiderMad

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not sure. Also I was repracticing FH Fair to WL onto Battlefield's first platforms, try it out it's really difficult
 

ZetTroxX

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For the first time I went to an event only for the purpose of playing PM this weekend. Despite having a blast, I nearly went MK-only. I´m surprised there are little to none MK players out there…he is SO much fun it´s crazy. So here are a few things I noticed during playing him.

Thanks to MK’s very high ground speed, D-Throw-Techchases are insanely good. I found it very easy to get a regrab on pretty much every character, didn´t play against spacies though. If the enemy Dis in you get a free regrab anyway. One time I techchased with a Side-B after the D-Throw, enemy got hit, I grabbed the edge instantly and combo-finished him off with a bair. So this might be a thing worth to be exploited…

Also, on mid-high % I often finished vs various characters (e.g. Kirby, Ivy) like this: D-Throw – enemy DIs away – I follow with a quick dashjump 2 DCape forward Cancel (C-Stick forward). Thanks to the dashjump the DCape cancel gets even more range and hits the enemy. I do not know if my opponents screwed up their DI though…

Tether recoverys can be punished pretty easy when MK is edgehogging. When you got the timing right rejump Nair/Bair or falling Nair can be pretty devastating. Falling Nair should only be done on stages deep enough so you do not SD before you can rejump though (had to learn that the hard way :D).

MK’s recovery is insanely good. Mixup your 4 jumps with Dcape fakeouts, Airdodges, Dair or Tornado and you should be safe every time.

Also I really like Green Hill Zone as a CP.

Question: Are there any safe DCape Setups known so far? I admire this move, but most of the time I just go roflcopter “swor swor swor” and try to hit my opponents offguard with the hard 16% hit (which works surprisingly fine since everyone gets scared/confused when MK disappears :D).
 

Chesstiger2612

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Dash jump forward IDCape works approximately until 40% on DI down+away on medium weight/fallspeed.

Safe setups are:
f-tilt reset -> DCape
D-throw -> tech on place -> IDCape
Jump->IDCape is a frame 12 OoS, so you can punish really bad approaches (shieldgrab is mostly better though).
If you run away and they chase you you can Cape with c-stick cancel towards them it isn't a safe setup but should be mentioned because it is hardly punishable.
 

ZetTroxX

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I´m sure Up-Air can also be a pretty good setup for a DCape finish, depending on opponents DI. I´m sometimtes suprised where the DCape takes MK, gotta practise more to fully understand this technique.
 

sneakytako

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I was playing yesterday, and I found out apparently tornado is a kill move lol. I was practicing followups by myself and I killed a CPU at like 140%, off the side of all places. Tornado's last hit does some decent KB, it might be a gimmicky way to stop phantasms.
 
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Chesstiger2612

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I sometimes do the ruffio, only works at 130+ though it seems. Didn't kill off the side with it yet.
You can also catch some upward recoveries with little disjoint because of your downward disjoint, in (time x1/4) training mode I gimped COM Fox with it by just repeating that from 0 to ~150% until the hitstun becomes too much. One problem with tornado I always have is that if you want to have longer tornados you have less control over it because it moves up then
 

sneakytako

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What do you guys think of dair as a follow up to dthrow at lower percents? I figure even if they DI away I'm still safe and in their face as long as I L cancel, and if they don't DI away I get a free combo. I've been moving away from just dashing/moving forward, especially against floaties.
 
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