Gliding over tall buildings in a single shuttle loop: The Meta Knight Social

[Chesstiger2612]

Well d-throw has little reward on mid-high&s if they DI away so mixing up might be useful. Up-throw is kind of a "modest" option because you get one up-air but often not more but if you don't feel comfortable with your reads it is OK. D-throw is mostly the best though (I would say 80% instead of 90%)

Are you sure the followup after the sweetspot d-tilt is guaranteed against all DIs? Then you are right for sure!

It is probably more situation dependent, I generalized it too much. When he is behind you, bair is best, if he is at other angles (like over you and behind) jump nair is better. The bair has the advantage of 7 frames faster IASA so I also agree too you on that one.

Thanks for your feedback!

 

[sneakytako]

What stages does everyone like/dislike with MK? I generally feel while smaller stages can lead to getting the other guy off the stage and gimping them or edgeguarding them with Fsmash, most of the smaller stages have platforms that impede dair shenanigans that make our recovery safe (ex BF, Wario Ware, etc.). Do people prefer big stages like dreamland of PS1/2? What stages do you guys generally ban/strike?

 

[Kaysick]

What stages does everyone like/dislike with MK? I generally feel while smaller stages can lead to getting the other guy off the stage and gimping them or edgeguarding them with Fsmash, most of the smaller stages have platforms that impede dair shenanigans that make our recovery safe (ex BF, Wario Ware, etc.). Do people prefer big stages like dreamland of PS1/2? What stages do you guys generally ban/strike?

I have a love/hate relationship (More love than hate) for Dreamland. I love the amount of space it has since I can go horizontally and do combos for a longer amount of time and that blast zones are so far away that I can recover very easily. Only can hate it because it can sometimes take a long time for MK to finally get the killing blow.

I always ban Yoshi's Story since MK can get killed pretty early on this stage. I've also gotten a handful of SD's trying to edgeguard with Nair.

 

[Run DMX]

I tend to hold a grudge against stages that make MK's beastly recovery obsolete because any character could easily recover back on it. Yoshi's Story, Warioware, Smashville when they have the platform.

Also, as opposed to dropping down and uairing fast-fallers after dthrowing off the ledge at lower percents, I just use a downsmash. It usually puts them at a far away distance enough to where I'm in a completely dominant position to take a stock. For most of them, I just drop down and fair them to prevent their recovery.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

So here are my thoughts on the stage:

NEUTRAL ROW

Yoshis Story
Overall: -
Details: This stage gets you killed way too early. The top blastzone isn't really a problem because you are a fast-faller but the sides are. The platform layout is good for you although other platform layouts fit even better, so against other leightweights the stage isn't that bad. Normally worth a ban.

Battlefield:
Overall: ++/+
Details: It is a neutral, but MK is a beast on it. Platforms in general don't interfere with your d-throw techchase and they help you comboing. The Battlefield platforms are even better for various reasons: You can even extend your combos to the top platform because of your 5 air jumps. The nair and up-air chases generally just work better on this stage. Also, you can land on the platforms with reverse shuttle loop if you place it correctly. BF is your best stage in neutral row.

Pokémon Stadium 2:
Overall: 0
Details: This is a pretty even stage for MK. The platforms are not as combofriendly as on Battlefield but still grant you protection from a lot of projectiles and a few techchases after hitting them on the platform. Try to avoid this stage against characters who kill upwards early (Fox, Lucas, Pikachu) when striking for Game 1, otherwise there are always better options for both banning and counterpicking.

Final Destination:
Overall: --/-
Details: Because your hitboxes have transcedent priority only your Dash attack can clank with projectiles and it has enough lag to get punished. So you would need to shield to get grabbed (-,-) or jump over it to do a punishable dair landing. Ban that stage against any projectile characters. It is OK (so no need to ban but don't counterpick either) against non-projectile characters when you want to use the far blast zones.

Smashville:
Overall: +/0
Details: Kind of an double-edged sword. The platform helps you extending combos but helps your opponents to recover. But the fact you can chill on it waiting for it to carry you to the enemy without being exposed to projectiles makes it rather good than bad.

Dreamland:
Overall: +
Details: A very good counterpick against characters with worse recoveries than you have so you can outplay that bonus. The platform layout isn't as good as Battlefield but still good. The only real downside I see is that floaties often do even better on it because the ceiling is so incredible high, but MK doesn't rely on killing upwards that often so its more a minor point.

Fountain of Dreams:
Overall: -/0
Details: You generally live a bit longer which is very helpful but the platforms can mess up your d-throw techchases and the mid platform is too high (relative to the other both most of the time) so opponents can generally escape before you are there and throwing out the aerial of your choice. It deserves no ban but no counterpick, so to speak.

COUNTERPICK ROW:

Yoshis Island:
Overall: +
Details: One of your better stages and a good counterpick. You don't die too early, the curved edges allow your nair to cover more offstage space when edgeguarding, and the big platform has a good height for up-airs. Just be aware that you could get camped here by either Ivy or a high mobility opponent with projectile who abuses the top platform to run away (mainly Fox).

Lylat Cruise:
Overall: +
Details: While the uneven terrain messes your throw game up, this stage is great against opponents whose throw game gets messed up even more, so this is a good counterpick against chaingrabbers and techchasers that rely even more on it than you. The platforms are at a good height to techchase. The rotation can interfere with your shuttle loop, so often tornado is better. Your opponents recovery often gets lylated too and tornado has almost no problem with it so thats good for you.

Pokemon Stadium 1:
Overall: 0
Same as PS2 (reasoning see there). The transformations arent really good or bad for you, because on Rock everyone is waiting anyways and the others don't make that big of a difference.

Wario Ware:
Overall: --/-
Details: You die too early and that alone justifies a ban. The platform layout is good in theory but having the platforms at the side will let you lose the stock even earlier. Only consider the stage against characters that normally would use projectiles against you and also die easily here, such as Falco.

Green Hill Zone:
Overall: +/0
Details: Your go-in stage against characters that want their room to breathe such as Zelda, Samus or Link. You can also die kind of early to the sides and you would generally prefer more platforms, so just counterpick that stage against the socalled "campers". Against characters like Ike you should probably fear that stage but there are stages which are worse for you so don't ban it even against them.

Skyloft:
Overall: 0
Details: The big stage allows you to live really long in comparison to others. The platforms are not helping that much because they are too high (but you can do nice shuttle loops on them from offstage) and you always need to double jump before... Flexible projectiles as Diddys banana, Links bomb or Pits arrow are what does make the stage being out of the positive area. The steps in the middle help you against non-flexibles like lasers.

Skyworld:
Overall: ++/+
Details: Many players don't like this stage but for MK it is good. The high ceiling helps him because he normally doesn't kill upwards anyways. Th platform layout is what makes this stage so good. That platform being over the edge of the stage helps your gimping really well and there is a top platform which is located almost perfectly. The difficulty to recover (stuck under Skyworld etc.) helps you because you can often tornado which is resistant to it and your enemy often isn't.

So, thats it. Feedback is appreciated. Do you also think that way or have I over/underrated some stages?

 

[Run DMX]

Sounds pretty similar to how I strike stages in the beginning, but I tend to CP to Lylat more than anything else. It's probably the MUs I have to deal with, though.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah in some matchups it is a really good counterpick. I probably just need to adapt to the d-throw followup changes. After thinking about it, I give it a + instead of of +/0 anyways because of the platform techchases.

 

[Run DMX]

My issue is that I don't d-throw tech chase enough. How did you get into a habit of tech chasing?

 

[Lawn Chair]

My issue is that I don't d-throw tech chase enough. How did you get into a habit of tech chasing?

Realize that MK's tech chase is one of his most powerful grab punishes.

I'm getting a Capture Card soon, I'll be uploading Metaknight tuts and request

 

[SpiderMad]

Final Destination:
Overall: --/-
Details: Because your hitboxes have transcedent priority only your Dash attack can clank with projectiles and it has enough landing lag to get punished.

Fountain of Dreams:
Overall: -/0
Details: You generally live a bit longer which is very helpful but the platforms can mess up your d-throw techchases and the mid platform is too high (relative to the other both most of the time) so opponents can generally escape before you are there and throwing out the aerial of your choice. It deserves no ban but no counterpick, so to speak.

Lylat Cruise:
Overall: +
Details: While the rotating messes your throw game up, this stage is great against opponents whose throw game gets messed up even more, so this is a good counterpick against chaingrabbers and techchasers that rely even more on it than you. The platforms are at a good height to techchase. The rotation can interfere with your shuttle loop, so often tornado is better. Your opponents recovery often gets lylated too and tornado has almost no problem with it so thats good for you.

Wario Ware:
Overall: --/-
Details: You die too early and that alone justifies a ban. The platform layout is good in theory but having the platforms at the side will let you lose the stock even earlier. Only consider the stage against characters that normally would use projectiles against you and also die easily here, such as Falco.

Skyloft:
Overall: 0
Details: The big stage allows you to live really long in comparison to others. The platforms are not helping that much because they are too high (but you can do nice shuttle loops on them from offstage) and you always need to double jump before... Flexible projectiles as Diddys banana, Links bomb or Pits arrow are what does make the stage being out of the positive area. The steps in the middle help you against non-flexibles like lasers.

Skyworld:
Overall: ++/+
Details: Many players don't like this stage but for MK it is good. The high ceiling helps him because he normally doesn't kill upwards anyways. Th platform layout is what makes this stage so good. That platform being over the edge of the stage helps your gimping really well and there is a top platform which is located almost perfectly. The difficulty to recover (stuck under Skyworld etc.) helps you because you can often tornado which is resistant to it and your enemy often isn't.

So, thats it. Feedback is appreciated. Do you also think that way or have I over/underrated some stages?

FoD seems like you could camp under the platforms a bit. It's probably good in possibly some MUs.

Smashville you can go on the platform and go high enough in the air into a dair that it will end just before you hit the ground, it's a nice surprise

Lylat Cruise doesn't tilt anymore, they removed it. Regardless, I hate the stage a ton just for how it looks and is and everything (I also don't like FD just for the lack of platforms and dumb space background). Similarly though, lots of people don't like Skyworld for some reason as a stage, so much so that Chicago TOOK IT OFF THE LEGAL STAGES THE FREAKING HECK WHAT THE FREAKING HECK. It was my go-to CP vs Spacies with Diddy.

I think that one MK likes WarioWare, and I've seen Falcos like Warioware. I also feel you can pry reach all the platforms with the right control to get lots of Down-b Attacks if they fall on any of them. MK is really light though so that sucks.

Skyloft is probably bad for MK with anyone with angled projectiles like you said, I wonder how well it does manage to reduce Falco's laser control though. Kels or whomever would pry go Fox rather than Falco for that stage though, and the ceiling is pry low. I wonder how it stacks up against Wolf.

 

[Lawn Chair]

I think that one MK likes WarioWare, and I've seen Falcos like Warioware. I also feel you can pry reach all the platforms with the right control to get lots of Down-b Attacks if they fall on any of them. MK is really light though so that sucks.

I like Wairo Ware for MK, imo it's one of his best stages

Metaknight is light? No way

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Sorry, but he is though

The fact he is a fastfaller makes a bit less of a problem because you normally can DI completely up because you won't reach the ceiling anyway but he dies extremely early.

@ SpiderMad Changed it was more referring to the uneven terrain didn't notice rotate is gone

You could definitely win on Wario Ware but the early death makes it kind of hard for him. I would ban it against characters with the base knockback beast attacks like Marth and Roy and their f-smash. Low angle horizontals are also a huge problem: Diddys fair, Bowser with fair, f-tilt, d-tilt (all kill super early) or Falcons knee. You needn't ban Wario Ware against characters that normally KO off the top or KO late in general, but I would say Wario Ware isn't one of his best stages.

@ Lawn Chair Btw: I would love to see MK tutorials, I would also have ideas for what to cover

 

[Lawn Chair]

That can't be right they must of changed the weights because Fox can't be the same weight as G&W, source of that picture?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

http://i.imgur.com/yKLmy9G.png, I got it from http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/1u57q8/database_project_m_30_database/ leading to http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/1tslu3/project_melee_character_weight_list/

 

[Kaysick]

Its pretty interesting to know that MK is lighter than Kirby... Even though MK has armor on.

 

[Lawn Chair]

At school can't look at them... damn firewall

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Thats because Kirby ate everything :D
On a serious note though, thats why Yoshis and WW are bad for MK (or at least not good).

 

[Chesstiger2612]

To discuss something else:
I didn't explore it completely yet, but I was experimenting with Glide onstage. Initiated by either a Double Loop (Reverse shuttle loop slide off the edge -> Shuttle loop) or a drop from the edge shuttle loop (best when your opponent isn't there yet punishing the laggy loop before you enter glide) it is a great option. The basic idea is to glide low over the ground in centerstage direction and if your opponent wants to punish you either Glide attack or Zero Lag Cancel (from 1:02 on). You can followup (from the Zero Lag Cancel) with a grab, a down-smash or a short dashdance -> punish (if your opponent throw out a move, ZLC -> dash away short, dash back in, now the opponents move finished and you can punish, best is a grab imho). With those great tools you can force back an opponent (if he challenges you your tools should be enough. If he outspaces your Glide attack it is a bit harder, but you should be able to ZLC->dashdance punish anyways). After some time the Glide loses its momentum if you keep moving horizontally, so your opponent should be able to back away without punish. But you, coming from the disadvantegous edge, have centerstage now...

What do you think?

 

[Lawn Chair]

ZLC is the way to go when it comes from landing on stage with shuttle loop, Glide attack is too punishable if not combo'd into

 

[sneakytako]

The graph doesn't account for fast fallers and how that negates knockback, so the list is kinda skewed.

 

[SpiderMad]

That can't be right they must of changed the weights because Fox can't be the same weight as G&W, source of that picture?

His fall speed stops him from dying vertically and ?slightly horizontally?
The reason certain combos like Stomp to Falcon Punch can actually be true combos on Spacies are they weight light but their fall speed stops them from otherwise flying off into the blastzone like a Jiggly, but they're still suffering the hitstun that a Jiggly would as she'd be flying into the blastzone (Knockback factors into Hitstun)

So how do I do the LTC cus I wasn't getting it, I press B 5 frames before I touch the ground and I can't be going fast in the glide or it won't work?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The list is correct when it comes to complete horizontal KB but MKs fastfalling allows him to DI completely up in most situations to reduce horizontal kb and normally he won't die off the top.
I am not completely sure about the ZLC, sometimes I get it sometimes not... could have to do with the angle at which MK is flying.
Glide attack is probably worse than ZLC -> other move, I thought it would work best if the opponent tries to jump away, but ZLC -> up air is the more solid alternative. Glide attack is only good out of glide if your opponent doesn't respect it enough and goes in recklessly.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Shameless double post, but its not my fault if no one else postes in 20 days here^^
Little observations regarding playstyles, when to use them and what moves you should do if you want to play like that.

Grab-oriented
General: Dashdancing much, going for grabs (JC), instead of approaching with a nair. Very groundbased playstyle. Also spaced d-tilts and d-smashs fit in that playstyle (except for CC danger). Go for d-throw mostly and maximize the techchase. Also use nair often but not as often as in other playstyles. Anti-approach with shieldgrab can work but MKs shield is small and his WD small, so if you play grab-oriented you normally want to be the aggressor.
When to use: When your grab outranges your opponents grab, when your opponent is at low %s and nairs would get CCd. Generally better against fast-fallers than floaties.
Annotations: I tend to play this style too often (Marth player background lol), but most MKs I see don't do it enough.

Juggler:
General: If you go for the juggling you can start with an up-throw or just a positional advantage like an opponent on the platform. Anti-approach can lead to Shuttle Loop out of shield and Up-air out of shield, but be careful with getting pushed into the defensive. Dair chains are together with up-air juggling the main reason to play this playstyle, they rack up percents very fast. A fair (just the first hits) before landing can also lead into sh up-air -> juggle more... You can sometimes b-throw to turnaround full jump fair (for DI in read) but MKs best grab if d-throw won't grant you anything is u-throw.
When to use: Seems to work best against midfallers against whom you can win the neutral still (the first hit is the main problem of this strategy). Percantage-wise it is mostly useful from the mid-%s on (below d-throws are always better)
Annotations: This is more of a risk-reward style imho. You don't need to fully play it out, I tend to only play out the juggle when transitioning from another strategy that won me the neutral or when I have a platformbased positional advantage.

Non-commitive:
General: Airbased. Nair is the main move you use. Space and zone with your jumps. You will often get easy hits that don't really lead to followups. Although many airbased MKs use dair as approach you shouldn't. Use mainly nair and in rare cases fair or up-air. You can also crouch and dash attack to cancel out projectiles. Important is the immediate air retreat after you hit someones shield with a nair (control stick away, jump and land on a platform preferably).
When to use: Good against projectiles where you can slowly make ground with smart aerial movement (running in and grab will not work against good opponents). Also good if you really don't want to take a hit when you are e.g. at high percents. If your aerials outrange your opponent's aerials this strategy is great, too.
Annotations: Plup is very good at this style, for example against Wizzrobe.

Clearly, the separation between those basic playstyles is exaggerated, more think of it as a toolset with flowing transitions. Nevertheless, those are elementar when playing MK in many different matchups and avoid MKs big weaknesses, CC and projectiles. I wasn't sure if I should include a fourth one, a bit like M2K described as he would play MK with many D-smashs and nairs and more dash attacks, but I didn't include it, mainly because it is a kind of mix and there is no example yet it is viable (which I doubt partly because Dash Attack isn't that great). It was worth mentioning though. It is also true juggling occurs in all styles of playing and going for juggles alone has no neutral game backing it up, but since both d-throw and non-commitive nair don't really lead to juggles so I felt it is separates and just thought of it as a style which is mostly transitioned to after a pretty 'standard' neutral game with commiting more and searching for platform advantages and up-airs.
I appreciate feedback
Enough for today,
Chesstiger2612

 

[Tero.]

Who are currently the best MK player to watch?

 

[Lawn Chair]

Who are currently the best MK player to watch?

Plup

 

[Tero.]

Already watched Plup. Anybody else?

 

[Lawn Chair]

Already watched Plup. Anybody else?

No one worth mentioning, me... LOL

 

[NameChange]

I personally thought K9 was also a good MK player. Infinity too.

 

[Lawn Chair]

I personally thought K9 was also a good MK player. Infinity too.

K9 is good for beginners but people should strive to study Plup he is the best by far the skill gab is very large. I don't think. EDIT: Now that I've seen infinity's game play I would say that you should watch him instead of K9 but of course there is different play styles but I really enjoy Infinity's, I improve.

 

[NameChange]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4uM_JhP8fM

KDJ has a Meta Knight??
Though he did lose to M2K

 

[SpiderMad]

Puff and supposedly all multi-jump characters gain/keep more momentum by doing aerials, does anyone know anything about this or how it can apply to metaknight?

I was thinking bout how since side-b pretty easily can be done at a point where the end cancels at the ledge, so actually use it for when someone is near the edge: I'd bet they'd just shield and accept it and get a little freaked when you cancel at the edge pretty fast.

what are the frame datas on tornado's height gain? how many presser per whenever is max height? does presses increase the longevity still?

what's the link mu like? doesn't feel that bad, maybe I don't normally swat away at projectiles much so I don't feel that loss?

Does his jab have any uses?

When should I go for one smash attack over another? It feels like all his smash attacks come out super fast so it's hard to know which to use

Down-b has so many in-depth mix-up tricks I'm wanting to find out or hear about once people get really good with it.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

My MK is pretty good but I don't have any viewing material

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ SpiderMad
Just observations, but here are my answers:
The aerial momentum gain seems to be less important (if it is existing), probably because of his fastfallingness. I didn't experience it yet.
Side-b at the edge is OK as a mixup but the edge is still an uncomfortable position you accept when doing this... you don't really gain something if they shield it (if they are used to it and don't do silly stuff afterwards)
Mashing still increases the longevity of tornado, I don't have frame data but it goes significantly higher than shuttle loop in theory but mashing crazy enough is hard. It can go up to a height of approximately 1.5x the height of BF top platform with perfect mashing.
Link matchup: You need to maximize your use of the platforms. With MKs shield pressure and overpar grab, if you are in it is a good matchup but projectiles are one of MK's biggest weakness due to his small shield size and his lack of a projectile. Basically, you have to fight hard to get in but are rewarded well. It is 45-55 or 40-60 for Link imho but if they don't know the MU or you are a little bit better you should be able to win it.
Jab is a strange case. F-tilt is your reset of choice, so it can't fulfill most characters main use of jabs. You can kind of use it as shield pressure on low shields when your fair hits shield into jab, similar to Falcons nair -> gentleman shield pressure. You can jab some predictable recoveries but there are so many better choices. Otherwise it is very situational and there are only very "strange situations" in that MK's jab is justified.
Use D-smash (frame 6, incredibly fast) to cover options on knockdown (d-throw techchase for example) and as general tool after a run-cancel. It his smash of most usage and is also a weapon against CCs (it can also be CCd at really low %s but at lower mid %s where d-tilt and f-tilt still can be CCd down-smash is great). Also edgeguard if you want to react fast on your opponent's choice of recovery. You can use d-smash more freely than other characters can use their smashes because it is so fast.
F-smash is the slower option, but has a bit more range. You can do hard reads with it (mainly in d-throw techchases) but its main usage is edgeguarding linear recoveries (e.g. Captain Falcon). Because it has more power it will prove more effective if it hits, but it won't hit often if your opponent mixes up his recovery. Note that you can stay a bit more safely behind the edge because of the extra range.
Up-smash is a juggle tool against fast-fallers and a classical anti-air. It can link into itself or into up-airs which lead into more up-airs or into nair / shuttle loop. It is SDIable so don't use it too often and also not against grounded opponents. If your opponent is low in the air and you are dashing below him it is your best option though.
Down-b's uses are, as you mention, not fully explored yet but here is what I know:
- D-throw at low %s: If the opponent techs or techrolls towards you you can get an IDCape.
- Sometimes there are better options but f-tilt reset to IDCape is strong too
- Reads on aerial opponents: I think here there might be some exploration to do still but often an up-air combo just is better because it is guaranteed
- Opponent stuck on a platform: Not many MKs use DC here yet but its one of the areas where it is really useful.
- At a disadvantegous position: You can often get free retreats because of the danger of the Dimensional Cape.
- Recovery: not as strong as in Brawl but is a way to get straight up and sweetspot the ledge. Dangerous if your opponent is trying to edgeguard, quickest option and probably best if he is just on the way to edgeguarding you (on the other end of the stage).
- Grounded opponents: This one is probably not so great but can work as a mixup. If you DCape near an opponent, they will probably shield (why wouldn't they). Now you appear behind them faced towards them without the hit and grab. They will adapt to it though...


Long text, I hope it answers your questions

 

[SpiderMad]

Someone needs to test the aerial aiding drifting thing though, like Jiggs however more minor, using aerials while you DJ for recovery could add extra horizontal and maybe even vertical? distance. I wonder what the best way is to optimize his DJs in the first place in regards to getting the max height vs air time.

Does his small shield make his Powershield hard, or is it relatively normal in difficulty?

Jab probly has some niche uses people might find or otherwise get from experienced Brawl people

I'm not even able to get over BF's top platform with tornado, is that normal? It felt like I was maxing it out so I'm surprised it's over the platform.

did someone make a list of what certain moves aerials are frame safe on shield?

down-b probly has a lot of visual cue aspects you can analyze, like spot dodge faking people out, and how fast can people react to certain mix-ups that they might work. Each time you use in certain situations you get a whole array How many frames is the reappearance of down-b when you didn't use the attack? How fast does the attack come out when you do use it? what's the fastest aerials and ground moves? even if nair might not be the fasest aerial, it might be the hardest to tell if he's performing one, so using that after a down-b might be the most unapparent and same for even ground moves, some might be faster than others but less obvious and I forget the word but it means like synonymous with each other or hard to tell?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I will try to test it today, probably fair has some kind of momentum boost or falling stall...
Powershielding is harder with MK, if you do have full shield it is definitely doable but as soon as your shield is decreased by a noticable amount, trying to powershield can end up you getting hit.
I agree about Jab the niches are probably small though because it isn't the fastest too (frame 7, so d-smash is faster)
I was mashing my hardest on Dolphin with extra slowdown and 1/4th speed. Maybe it helps to also rename some d-pad stuff to special (if you do have the taunt on X because footstool) to get it faster. In real circumstances my highest result was slightly under the top platform. Note if you want to recover that if you jump before tornado it can get you higher (slightly before jump apex works best from my testing) because the falling is kind of stalled during the tornado.
If you do it perfectly (with the autocancel, so right after the first hit), nair can be up to +3, -1 without. Fair is -1, even if you get the autocancel, otherwise -6. Bair is +1, +4 with autocancel. Up-air is -3, 0 with autocancel. Dair is -9, 0 with autocancel. I used this thread which seems to say all of his aerials have huge and easy autocancels, I believe there is something wrong with that. If so, bair is safe on shield (if frame perfect a b-reverse shuttle loop should beat their shield grab attempts), while a nair doesn't get you punished at least most of the time.
I "analyzed" the data and I think it is 18 frames without the attack, but there are so many different names and frame numbers I am not 100% sure. If a standard reaction time is around 14 frames that can give you a -4 on reaction, which is OK if you have a read and your opponent hasn't.

 

[Lawn Chair]

I'm heading out to a tournament today, hopefully it has a stream setup, the last one had some technically difficulty ****ed up it's waveshines or something. If it does I'll link look at for me fellow Metaknights.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You win this I believe in you ^^

 

[Lawn Chair]

You win this I believe in you ^^

I'll try my best my dude

 

[Lawn Chair]

Come watch friends, http://www.twitch.tv/thegamegallerypa

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Good luck^^