Gliding over tall buildings in a single shuttle loop: The Meta Knight Social

[Chesstiger2612]

@ SpiderMad Tested that momentum boost it doesn't make that much but I flew 10-15% further with the same amount of jumps. Most effective with fair as I thought.
About my concern about the autocancel windows in the last response I begin to think the window is everything outside of the frames given instead of between those. That wouldn't allow any useful autocancels for shield safety. So just bair would be advantegous on shield and with fair you have at least a mindgame opportunity to get out...

 

[RabidJackal]

Come watch friends, http://www.twitch.tv/thegamegallerypa

Tuned in for GF. Really like your uses of up-b. Would like to see more dimensional cape use . Congrats on the win

 

[Lawn Chair]

Tuned in for GF. Really like your uses of up-b. Would like to see more dimensional cape use . Congrats on the win

I used a lot of dimensional on everyone in bracket, but I know Jreed is not stupid or unknowledgeable (Play him a lot so he has some good Metaknight knowledge.) So I wasn't going to take that risk thanks anyway tho. When the matches come to youtube any one can Critique if they like

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Chesstiger2612 you mentioned b-reversed up-b after an aerial on shield, doesn't grounded up-b hit on frame 7? and whyd you mention it to be b-reversed ?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ SpiderMad
Reversed because it is after a bair and you are probably facing away. If you do it after a fair (-1 on shield) it isn't reversed. Because shuttle loop is so quick it would still beat shield grab by one or two frames if perfectly timed.
@ Lawn Chair
Good job! I couldn't watch it live because of the time shift sadly but I will watch your matches now!
EDIT: Oh they aren't saved on twitch? I hope they get uploaded on Youtube

 

[SpiderMad]

the frame thread made it look like the hitbox came on frame 7 though

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ SpiderMad
It does indeed. Which frame is shieldgrab I might have messed that one up

 

[Lawn Chair]

They are going to uploaded to youtube, should be later today or tomorrow TO has some **** to do.

 

[Sartron]

h autocancel. I used this thread which seems to say all of his aerials have huge and easy autocancels, I believe there is something wrong with that.

<x y> represents less than x but greater than y. So SpiderMad is correct, autocanceling is everything outside of those numbers.

 

[SpiderMad]

I didn't really think about it but when you use the dimensional attack you gain some horizontal distance (in return for losing a bit of the vertical?) so if you don't think you might make it while recovering horizontally with a dimensional you should go for the attack

also how fast is a frame perfect dimensional cape to c attack cancel? It seems like if you do it really good you can make a great OOS option, with his quick jump start making it even more potent. Shield > slide from Y to B and get the bottom of your thumb to C-stick. Only bad part is I can only get the c-stick fast if i do it to the left, if you were to claw you could get all the directions

Also since you're in the air when you start it you can make it face either way, so you can potentially be even better maybe for someone crossing up your shield


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b5pczNVzx0
video

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ SpiderMad
Earliest is frame 8. So with 3 frames jumpsquat it is a frame 11 OoS, quite decent. Very inspirational video btw.

I am currently working on a overlength post about how to counter anti-MK-strategy/technologies currently, if you have anything that really annoys you you can post it and I will include it.

 

[SpiderMad]

Who's up for the early aerial SH challenge? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcYiuwDaC3A#t=50

Perform SH Up-air to Up-air/Dair/Fair/Nair, and record yourself

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Sadly SH double Up-air only works if the first doesn't hit Btw I want to talk a bit about MK's shield pressure, what do you think?

 

[Lawn Chair]

His only shield pressure is his mach tornado, and his dtilt. You can keep dtilt a shield and they have to wavedash away or jump away his dtilt is like Marth's it destroys bad approaches. With Mach Tornado you just press that makes you win #Span2Wan

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I was thinking so too everything else seems really punishable. Tornado is only legit if you have a platform above you or you know you will get the shield poke. MK hasn't the greatest shield pressure.

 

[EclipseKirby]

What do you guys think of footstooling as an anti-shield option? You get a free Dair if you footstool a shielding opponent. It's nice since it's low commitment, giving you time to Nair, Bair, Uair or jump if they reacted to your movements and you couldn't footstool. Still, I'm looking into it for weaknesses.

 

[Lawn Chair]

Dair is a highly crouch cancelable move, all you have to do is CC and shield wait for the pop up hit then wavedash out or jump out to reset to neutral. You will only get that dair on inexperienced players.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Footstool is +19 frames, so Dair is guaranteed. If you are at low percents, you can counter CC into a d-smash often which is advantegous for you then and if the opponent is at high %s it will also work. The biggest problem is, how to setup a footstool? Just jump in and go for it? That begs for a punish! You can use the IASA of the up-air hitting a shield if you are slightly above a character with very slow OoS (>frame 20, but keep in mind that we assume you space it well and are high enough to not get shieldgrabbed) you can set it up that way. Otherwise, if you are directly next to the opponent (after a spot dodge situation or similar) you can also set it up against shields. Some AT platform drops also give you possibilities to setup footstools efficiently. Bear in mind these are multiple ways, but all of them only have very little application so while the footstool is sometimes rewarding (if not in CC danger), setting it up against a good opponent is even harder.
Nonetheless, I will try to find other ways of shield pressure / footstool because the most annoying anti-MK-strategy, the "p+s camp", is bothering me. Using projectiles to prevent MK rushing in over the ground and grabbing, and shielding as soon as you get near in the air is a method many good players use against MK (because his aerials aren't good on shield and he hasn't a shine or Lucario shield pressure). There are probably ways to beat it, but it seems difficult, especially if they can CC if you try d-tilt or f-tilt...

 

[EclipseKirby]

Well, Chesstiger2612, that pretty much covers what I was thinking about it and more. I'm also interested in its use as an option select. Should you input a taunt and immediately input an attack or jump, you'll get one or the other depending on if you footstooled or not. This is all not necessarily a great option, but even niche things are worth looking into when applicable.

 

[SpiderMad]

Sadly SH double Up-air only works if the first doesn't hit Btw I want to talk a bit about MK's shield pressure, what do you think?

Doesn't work in what sense? I imagine it might work on a fast faller, or work as shield pressure. I think doing an early Up-air on a guy's shield and then using a forward dair could possibly cross them up. Doing really early aerials is hard though so it's super impractical, which is why I wish the game had a 1 frame buffer: in Brawl the 10 frame buffer was more than enough to buffer aerials in the short jump squats characters had. 1 frame just makes 1 frame window'd things 2 frames, which opens up the technique to be at a usable level like they did to the SWD.

His only shield pressure is his mach tornado, and his dtilt. You can keep dtilt a shield and they have to wavedash away or jump away his dtilt is like Marth's it destroys bad approaches. With Mach Tornado you just press that makes you win #Span2Wan

What about F-tilts, F-smash, Cross up nairs, spaced Autocancel fair and bair? Fade away Up-air maybe? Does anybody have uses of F-tilt strings, cause you can do the first one then a d-tilt really fast and repeat but I don't know how it adds up in terms of better on block than alternatives or just doing the rest of the f-tilt sequence.


how safe on shield is dimensional attack at full power

 

[Lawn Chair]

Those are all ok pressure but I suggested the best, and least punishable options over strings of attacks that don't actually work. Full Dimensional Cape (DC) is highly punishable. Think of it like this, tipper fsmash on fox's shield is not safe full DC has less range and less shield stun making it unwise to hit shields with this move

 

[SpiderMad]

Really? So DC has high knockback, but not that high dmg/shield stun

 

[Lawn Chair]

Really? So DC has high knockback, but not that high dmg/shield stun

Not enough to make the move nonpunishable. Everything is unsafe on fox's shield and fully spacing that move, he still gets to shine blind Metaknight into usmash

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ SpiderMad Maybe its just me, but I wasn't able to get out the second up-air if the first connects (are you still falling in hitlag?). Could also be the timing though. The forward dair could be a good mixup but is so punishable. Dair has 13 frames of landing lag even if l-cancelled.
Shield pressure with f-tilt only works on shields that are already low. You can try to delay the second and third hit to let their shield additionally decay over time but it does ahve too much endlag and not enough shield damage to be an option of reliability. Same goes for most of the other options you mention. After looking at the autocancel windows again, they sadly don't fit with the hitbox windows so autocancels won't help you. F-smash can work but how will you not get hit during the startup? Its endlag is less luckily and so it should be at least OK on shield.
F-tilt -> down-tilt: First frame of input that won't trigger the second f-tilt is 21, plus d-tilt startup we're on frame 27. 3 frames shieldstun and 3 frames until the first hit of f-tilt, so we are at a frame 21 punish window OoS. I don't think this is safe.
EDIT: OK double up-air also works if you hit someone I just messed up the timing

@ EclipseKirby The input taunt first, then the other action is great but one issue you may have is if the option to do sth immediately after the footstool missed is bad. From frame 7 on, you can again input actions after the footstool and reaction time is mostly over that so you could only guess if you should do a followup to the footstool (which might be bad when it failed) or a action you would do if you don't get the footstool (which might be bad if you get the footstool)

@ Lawn Chair I agree DCape isn't safe on shield. I think tornado as shield pressure has some potential but there also is a downside. You can only use as shield pressure if you increase its longevity, so by mashing. The problem now is, good mashing will put you over their shields because of the vertical distance you gain by a b input. Is there any way to avoid that? Otherwise it only is a mediocre option because if you don't manage to shield poke or make them spot dodge/ roll away they will punish you during your endlag.

 

[Lawn Chair]

@ Lawn Chair I agree DCape isn't safe on shield. I think tornado as shield pressure has some potential but there also is a downside. You can only use as shield pressure if you increase its longevity, so by mashing. The problem now is, good mashing will put you over their shields because of the vertical distance you gain by a b input. Is there any way to avoid that? Otherwise it only is a mediocre option because if you don't manage to shield poke or make them spot dodge/ roll away they will punish you during your endlag.

You space out the B presses

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hmm if thats the only way I would agree, but less presses also reduces the longevity. But I don't see an other way, holding down didn't do anything. Tornado is a debatable shield pressure, but it seems MK has to go for mixups when shield pressuring because he hasn't a "beat-shields-always-option" like Lucas or Lucario have

 

[SpiderMad]

I wasn't able to notice increased longevity of the tornado with more presses in PM

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ SpiderMad Really? Could be placebo, but I'm pretty sure there is more longevity. Not such a big effect as in Brawl though. Also the frame data thread suggests so, because the animation is much longer than tornado normally goes which is probably explained by the animation being as long as tornado can be with perfect mashing and it is cut off at one point if you don't mash enough.

Concerning approaching shields this one seems quite useful: Just go in as if you would go for a nair, then midair jump repeatedly and let them sit in their shield. When they drop it, dair because then they have a cooldown in shielding again. If they don't, either wait them out and land safely somehow, go for a aerial on shield, tornado shield pressure or go for a DCape mindgame. Obviously it also has drawbacks (dair can be CCd, they can WD out out of shield which gives you more issues etc...), but at least it is a step in solvin that issue.

 

[Lawn Chair]

Is there a way to play PM with hitboxes on? I'm think of starting a project

 

[Chesstiger2612]

What kind of project?

 

[Lawn Chair]

Shush. Top secret

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yay I've got vacation now finally more time to play.
Another note, if you hit with the backer part of up-air, up-air -> back-air is working very well

 

[9bit]

Daaaaaaaaamn. I just killed Mewtwo off the top of Pokemon Stadium 2 with up-B, M2 was at like 57% after the up-B damage.

And I did something cool that probably won't work on many character weights or against people who know the DI, but I did up-air, into first two hits of f-air, into up-air, into up-B. I think the M2 could have easily gotten out of it, pretty sure he wasn't in hitstun the whole time, he just didn't try I guess, cuz he's not like a super pro player or whatever. Cool stuff, though.

 

[Lawn Chair]

Daaaaaaaaamn. I just killed Mewtwo off the top of Pokemon Stadium 2 with up-B, M2 was at like 57% after the up-B damage.

And I did something cool that probably won't work on many character weights or against people who know the DI, but I did up-air, into first two hits of f-air, into up-air, into up-B. I think the M2 could have easily gotten out of it, pretty sure he wasn't in hitstun the whole time, he just didn't try I guess, cuz he's not like a super pro player or whatever. Cool stuff, though.

That works more than you think, I do that all the time.

 

[SpiderMad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3MPByBh7no

 

[sneakytako]

Won a local bi-weekly tournament with mostly MK this weekend.

Can anyone tell me how we should play on Wario ware? That stage seems terrible for MK. (I guess it depends on the MU)

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Congratulations first Finally we win more and more tournaments
Concerning WarioWare, it is matchup dependent. You die very fast but the platforms are great. Against characters with strong base knockback to the side attacks you should ban it, Roy with his f-smash as example. If you are playing against a character which isn't that dangerous early kill-wise, you wouldn't ban it. Use the platforms to get guaranteed up-air->nair if you trapped them and to enhance your neutral game. Only fight if it suits you, if you are at 120% just do up-airs at the ledge. Learn the shuttle loop cancels (for every stage basically lol), they give you many opportunities if utilized right. On WarioWare, compared to other stages, I would use nair and up-air more and other moves a bit less, probably because the platforms set it up so nicely and a big commitment (often DCapes are killing you here) could lead to an early kill.

 

[sneakytako]

Like, I can't understand why you think the platforms are good. We don't have very good shield pressure from underneath, the platforms impeded safe high dair recoveries and running away to space and reset neutral, and they screw up tech chases and up air chains more than they help. I love green hill zone but wario ware seems like a very anti-MK stage.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The shield pressure from underneath is better than on a flat stage (spaced up-air -> nair). You shouldn't use dair on that stage so much, dair is better on FD or Smashville, for all retreat, fakeout and chaining. Its true that you can't really run away, but another question, do you want to? MK has no projectiles, why would he camp (besides high percent then you can go camp the ledge because when you die you were at high % either way). The platforms are great because they help him against projectiles and give projectile characters no possibility to zone you out.
Your tech chases shouldn't get screwed up, an up-air should cover all options on the platform. How do your up-air chains get interrupted by the platforms? The idea is that you can land inbetween after maybe the first midair jump and then regain your jumps getting one up-air per one or two jumps, depending on percentage. So that means more up-airs, doesn't it? Practice platform techchases if not.
Against characters that normally annoy you to the max, the stage is good, against most of the cast neither counterpick nor ban and against early killers not relying on projectiles too much a ban.

 

[sneakytako]

Like I run away a lot to reset neutral. If I feel like I've mis-read a setup or lost advantage, I will run in the opposite direction to avoid giving them the advantage. MK runs so fast I hardly ever get caught in a truly terrible situation, and if they are mashing I can run back in and act like I baited something (lawl)

Like my upair chains get interrupted because they can FF and tech, versus if there was no platform they would have no such option. I use fthrow bthrow and upthrow to mix up my setups (Yeah I use all the throws, like a boss) to mess up their DI when I grab, those platforms are the worst for this though.

I also have mid/high (80-120 range) dsmash and fsmash setups that don't work because the platforms are too low/close together. Me no rikey.