Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[GoodGrief741]

I've watched and read a lot of character speculation, but there's one burning question that I don't think I've ever seen tackled (and I wish someone would):

Why would Erdrick's codename be so blindingly obvious?

The other codename we know of, "Jack", is extremely generic. If it was datamined before Joker was revealed, there's absolutely no way we would've known who it was for. On the other hand, "Brave" is, as far as I can tell, literally what the main character of DQ3 is called. Like PapaGenos points out in his latest video, he's even called that in official media. This raises the question:

Why would they so very carefully hide the identity of one character, yet not make the slightest effort to hide another's?

Obviously, the most logical answer is that "Brave" isn't actually Erdrick. One counter-argument I could see to this is that they've never been using codenames at all (Piranha Plant was called "Packun", and they might have called Joker "Jack" simply because he doesn't have a canon name), but we know for a fact that Arsene had a codename ("Doyle"), meaning that they are, without a doubt, using codenames, and if we assume that "Brave" is a codename, it's a pretty safe assumption that it's not for a character whose name is literally Brave.

Lol how is Brave an obvious name? It's blindingly generic. The connection to Dragon Quest is strong and it's there, but there's tons of people thinking Brave is some other character because videogame characters tend to be brave.

 

[Teeb147]

True, of course, but the point is that this isn't really a brand-new theory. That, and I can see how it'd still hold some water.

Mostly only Leakypandy talked about Dragon Quest beyond a certain point. He's not really a leaker tho, he doesn't have a good track record. He got a lot of statements wrong including that skull kid was going to be a boss. He also implied that SE would be revealed at the game awards. And in the past said some stuff about luigi's mansion dlc in odyssey.

Of course, if there's something I missed besides just rumors from stuff like that, someone could bring it up.

 

[Deleted member]

Y'know, when I first came across SMRPG, my friend decided to play it, and it seemed like a pretty cool game. A couple of months later, I decide to just watch gameplay of it, unfortunately leading to me spoiling the entire game for me (go me!!) lol. I was dyyying to play it, but I had to wait 6 ****in' long months!

And then, when I finally played it, and after I finished it, I just played it again because I was just so sad I finished it. It's such a good game.

 

[Datboigeno]

What I don't understand is why people are still so resolute that Erdrick is Brave and/or that Erdrick is inevitably going to be the SE character. Because from where I'm sitting most of the "evidence" that seemed to point to him being the SE character at this point has either been proven false or is highly questionable. We have the words of several leakers the majority of whom have been shown to be fed false information they genuinely thought were true. We have the datamined codename that is incredibly on the nose with respect to other codenames present. We have the 2chan leak that people were holding onto being true despite the fact that the leak that contained doomguy and hyabusa being confirmed false which now with the releasse of Jpker is 100% false. I just don't really see where the confidence is coming from.

 

[Teeb147]

What I don't understand is why people are still so resolute that Erdrick is Brave and/or that Erdrick is inevitably going to be the SE character. Because from where I'm sitting most of the "evidence" that seemed to point to him being the SE character at this point has either been proven false or is highly questionable. We have the words of several leakers the majority of whom have been shown to be fed false information they genuinely thought were true. We have the datamined codename that is incredibly on the nose with respect to other codenames present. We have the 2chan leak that people were holding onto being true despite the fact that the leak that contained doomguy and hyabusa being confirmed false which now with the releasse of Jpker is 100% false. I just don't really see where the confidence is coming from.

If you're really curious then you can check out the main post of the erdrick thread.
And I also just made a post on the page before this one here about the 'on the nose' idea a few people have.

That said, I dont think anyone should think of any character as guaranteed. If some people do it's because they have trouble weighing possibilities and always need to believe something is true or not. If people could just leave it as that erdrick has some good chances (but definitely not a 'lock'), and move on, everyone would be better off ;p

 

[Datboigeno]

If you're really curious then you can check out the main post of the erdrick thread.
And I also just made a post on the page before this one here about the 'on the nose' idea a few people have.

That said, I dont think anyone should think of any character as guaranteed. If some people do it's because they have trouble weighing possibilities and always need to believe something is true or not. If people could just leave it as that erdrick has some good chances (but definitely not a 'lock'), and move on, everyone would be better off ;p

I guess it's just that to me a lot of those rationales just feel like backpedaling. Like it's gone from "It's obviously Erdrick guys because Brave is the English translation of his Japanese name" to "It's Erdrick because it's vague enough to apply to him but not really". Like, what?

And regarding the Erdrick thread the things you listed were things that I already pointed out have been straight up proven false or are highly questionable at best. You have the leak that's been btfo with the release of joker, leakers who were shown to have been given straight up false information they thought was real. Annnd the frame data. Which could fit any number of characters and even then seems like a stretch for Erdrick. A lot of those things being proven false seem like things that would have shown maybe this aint it chief. It's not as if people are still talking about Katalina from Granblue Fantasy for example.

 

[Teeb147]

I guess it's just that to me a lot of those rationales just feel like backpedaling. Like it's gone from "It's obviously Erdrick guys because Brave is the English translation of his Japanese name" to "It's Erdrick because it's vague enough to apply to him but not really". Like, what?

And regarding the Erdrick thread the things you listed things that I already pointed out have been staright up proven false or are highly questionable at best. You have the leak that's been btfo with the release of joker, leakers who were shown to have been given straight up false information they thought was real. Annnd the frame data. Which could fit any number of characters and even then seems like a stretch for Erdrick. Like a lot of those things being proven false seem like things that would have shown maybe this aint it chief. Like, it's not like people are still talking about Katalina from Granblue Fantasy for example.

The first one is because of some people making too many big conclusions just based on the name alone. The other is in response to people saying it's too obvious. It's not that it's erdrick becausse it's vague. It's vague enough to be used as a codename, but maybe not thought out long-term enough since dragon quest is still probably the biggest when it comes to who it could apply to. So, maybe the most likely connection, but not the only one.

And again, nothing was 'proven false', it's all about weighing possibilities, and that can be based on track record and other things. Someone like vergeben who gets something wrong that's not based on their main source shouldn't dismiss all of the claims from his good sources just because of not managing his info well on a few things. There's also more than just him.

And you have people on the other end (compared to you) who have trouble not looking at what was shown wrong, and only focus on what's right as if it's evidence they're 100% in. The reality is more nuanced than that, and overall I would say erdrick has some good stuff in their favor, but what does that mean? Personally I would maybe give erdrick 62% (or a little higher) chance to get in I've seen some people say like 80% or higher, and I just dont think we have quite enough for that, but tansut did get cloud right so he obviously has an SE source but doesn't like to leak too much. Could he be wrong? sure, but talking about things during speculations and giving characters good chances to be in doesn't get much better. Unless you only want to put anything into official drops, like the stage builder that was missed by nintendo's commercial. But that puts it very narrow and then it's hard to talk in favor for any character at all :/

Anyway. That's my side of it, and I've debated enough in the past 24 hours so that'll be it, finishing with my more full take ;p

 

[Lime3037]

Stage Builder is a lot of fun and all (save for all the eye rolling at the expected number of stages based on genitals. Never change, Internet.), but I really wish we could see the next new character. Waiting for E3 is going to suck.

Also, there's a brand of clocks called Geno. I hear the alarm sounds like "Beware the Forest's Mushrooms" when it goes off. I'll set mine to whenever the next update comes.

 

[Brothanigus]

The only issue I have with Brave is that a lot of people assume it's gonna be Erdrick.
Like , no matter how likely a character look like , thinking someone's a lock , ESPECIALLY IF YOU WANT THEM , can very easily lead to disapointment.

Honestly , I don't believe the "Erdrick was base" theory.
Like , Sakurai thought he could get Cloud , Erdrick , and SMRPG content for base game ? When he could only get Cloud and the Geno mii costume for Sm4sh DLC ? With the rumors of getting back Cloud was a pain in the *** ? When he probably got denied by SE when he asked for Geno back in Brawl ? (no proof of that , but stating he wanted him but couldn't get him , that's the most likely scenario with time constraints)
I dunno , he's important , but he's the first one to know that SE isn't easy to deal with.

But we don't know if SE is stingy with JUST FF stuff, we don't know if this extends to everything. I firmly believe that SE are very stingy with SOME IPs, not all. And SMRPG isn't one of them.

Also, Sakurai stated he wants Geno. So he's getting in.

 

[Ovaltine]

But we don't know if SE is stingy with JUST FF stuff, we don't know if this extends to everything. I firmly believe that SE are very stingy with SOME IPs, not all. And SMRPG isn't one of them.

Also, Sakurai stated he wants Geno. So he's getting in.

We don't know if SMRPG is one of them or not. The fact that Geno's cameo was removed from the SSS remake is telling of the price tag they have on him, honestly. Sakurai wanting him in doesn't mean that he's a shoe-in either, given there are so many factors mounting against him.

 

[osby]

But we don't know if SE is stingy with JUST FF stuff, we don't know if this extends to everything. I firmly believe that SE are very stingy with SOME IPs, not all. And SMRPG isn't one of them.

Also, Sakurai stated he wants Geno. So he's getting in.

As far as we know, Sakurai wanted Geno in Brawl too, but there's no sign of him a decade later. Sakurai is very respected in his field, but he can't just add any character purely based on what he wants.

 

[TheAnimatiac]

hello everyone

 

[Teeb147]

As far as we know, Sakurai wanted Geno in Brawl too, but there's no sign of him a decade later. Sakurai is very respected in his field, but he can't just add any character purely based on what he wants.

Sakurai does most of the decisions about it, at least for base roster. But maybe he tries to consider what the others around him think too.
He's not overly biased, since kirby isnt op and doesnt have more characters in smash

 

[TheAnimatiac]

True while the ol Sak Attack wanted him in brawl and sm4sh its not like square will let it happen

 

[Deleted member]

But we don't know if SE is stingy with JUST FF stuff, we don't know if this extends to everything. I firmly believe that SE are very stingy with SOME IPs, not all. And SMRPG isn't one of them.

Also, Sakurai stated he wants Geno. So he's getting in.

While I don't think Geno (or any other character for that matter) is an absolute lock, it is one of the reasons I'm confident about Geno for wave 1.

 

[Monokarhu]

I don't think it's impossible for Erdrick to have originally been planned for the base game, but if that's the case, why hasn't he been revealed yet? I don't claim to know **** about game development, but if Vergeben started talking about "a new Square-Enix rep" a year ago and claimed that the DQ character would be revealed at the VGAs, then presumably Erdrick would have been in a presentable state for a looong time. We even had the February Direct with its relatively large focus on DQ stuff. I guess they could be saving him for that huge Dragon Quest event that's happening (or did it already happen? I genuinely have no idea).

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Another thing, just because Sakurai wants Geno in Smash doesn't mean it'd be a good idea. I'm not saying that Geno getting in would be bad (because I really want to see that happen) but when you're in charge of a fighting game series that gets increasingly more complex with each new entry, there's a lot of moving parts you have to deal with and the process of adding new fighters would undoubtedly become more complex than "I want this guy in". With 70 whatever characters on the roster, I'm sure selecting new characters is a gargantuan task because you have to think about how someone's inclusion/move-set would affect everything else. You have to make sure characters would be balanced compared to the rest of the roster. That's why Ridley didn't show up for the longest time.

tl;dr there's a lot to consider when adding a new character in a game this big so you can't just throw in characters all willy-nilly just because you'd like to.

 

[Loliko YnT]

We don't know if SMRPG is one of them or not. The fact that Geno's cameo was removed from the SSS remake is telling of the price tag they have on him, honestly. Sakurai wanting him in doesn't mean that he's a shoe-in either, given there are so many factors mounting against him.

My main problem with the "Geno was removed from the SS remake so he must cost a lot of money !" argument is... Did Alphadream asked for Geno's rights in the first place ? It was a simpler remake (since they already have an engine used in Dream Team and Paper Jam) , but iirc , the game was a pretty notable release for the 3DS this year.
So , instead , maybe they didn't asked for his rights to avoid time constraints ? Negotiating this kind of stuff takes time. Honestly , I highly doubt that they would have over-priced his rights since... It was just an harmless cameo ! Maybe I'm too optimistic or something , but I don't see this as a solid argument.

 

[Datboigeno]

Another thing, just because Sakurai wants Geno in Smash doesn't mean it'd be a good idea. I'm not saying that Geno getting in would be bad (because I really want to see that happen) but when you're in charge of a fighting game series that gets increasingly more complex with each new entry, there's a lot of moving parts you have to deal with and the process of adding new fighters would undoubtedly become more complex than "I want this guy in". With 70 whatever characters on the roster, I'm sure selecting new characters is a gargantuan task because you have to think about how someone's inclusion/move-set would affect everything else. You have to make sure characters would be balanced compared to the rest of the roster. That's why Ridley didn't show up for the longest time.

tl;dr there's a lot to consider when adding a new character in a game this big so you can't just throw in characters all willy-nilly just because you'd like to.

I don’t see how Geno being added would be a negative in and of itself compared to any other character really. If anything Geno would be a bigger point in terms of diversity gameplay-wise due to being mostly projectile based than another swordfighter for example. Sakurai’s even alluded before to there already being a lot of sword wielding protagonists compared to other types of characters. If anything Sakurai explicitly said that Geno’s moveset would be a great fit for Smash.

 

[TheAnimatiac]

I agree maybe geno is expensive but sakurai could probable make deal the SE

 

[alemerltoucanet]

Hmmm. Has there been any recent datamines from the 3.0 update?

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I don’t see how Geno being added would be a negative in and of itself compared to any other character really. If anything Geno would be a bigger point in terms of diversity gameplay-wise due to being mostly projectile based than another swordfighter for example. Sakurai’s even alluded before to there already being a lot of sword wielding protagonists compared to other types of characters. If anything Sakurai explicitly said that Geno’s moveset would be a great fit for Smash.

Didn't mean to imply that Geno being added would definitely be negative. The point I was trying to make is that adding a character into Smash isn't as easy as saying "I want to add this character to the game". Case in point, Geno, who's not in the game even though he's got Sakurai's endorsement. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but that was the only point I was trying to make. I see now how my opening sentences in the previous post can be confusing...

 

[Brothanigus]

As far as we know, Sakurai wanted Geno in Brawl too, but there's no sign of him a decade later. Sakurai is very respected in his field, but he can't just add any character purely based on what he wants.

UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH the entire roster contradicts this statement, Joker does also. How can you say this when it's been proven he's added in multiple character because of his wants?

 

[osby]

UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH the entire roster contradicts this statement, Joker does also. How can you say this when it's been proven he's added in multiple character because of his wants?

Please learn to tell "can't" and "wouldn't" apart.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH the entire roster contradicts this statement, Joker does also. How can you say this when it's been proven he's added in multiple character because of his wants?

Have you read any of my posts? Not every character is going to work in Smash Bros. based on Sakurai wanting to add them. Ridley is the biggest (no pun intended) example of this. Also, Geno not being in the roster right now is proof that Sakurai can't just add any character purely based on what he wants. Sakurai has wanted Geno since Brawl. So if osby is wrong, then please enlighten me on why Geno isn't in the roster right now. Sakurai wants him, so he should be there according to your logic.

 

[Looma]

I'm noticing that the relative few times that Geno has been asked for, SE's been decently cooperative all things considered. The fact that Alphadream was willing to go through that licensing hurdle for what amounted to a small cameo in a minigame tells me that it wasn't that expensive or hard. SMRPG has been rereleased multiple times just fine and Geno's appeared in Smash twice, both times even getting somewhat of a red carpet treatment. Despite this, I will never stop making fun of Square or 2 song Johnny over there. It's too much fun.

As for the SS remake? It's obviously a low budget side project. They probably didn't feel approaching Square for the license was worth even the little extra effort or cash for something that wasn't exactly aiming to break records. I wouldn't use it as an indicator of anything.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I think Krystal is a guaranteed newcomer for the next Smash game. I also find her more unique than Wolf. I'm pretty sure she didn't make it because there wasn't enough time, which is really unfortunate. Don't forget that she was at least considered for a Smash game, so I think she's up there for consideration next time. I'm happy with what we got, but I personally think we should've gotten more newcomers, at least two more: Krystal and Claus.

I think Krystal's chances of ever getting into the roster will all depend on whether she will be in another Star Fox game again. Outside of that happening, chances are slim to none for her to get into the roster without coming back to her own series.

 

[Loliko YnT]

I'm noticing that the relative few times that Geno has been asked for, SE's been decently cooperative all things considered. The fact that Alphadream was willing to go through that licensing hurdle for what amounted to a small cameo in a minigame tells me that it wasn't that expensive or hard. SMRPG has been rereleased multiple times just fine and Geno's appeared in Smash twice, both times even getting somewhat of a red carpet treatment. Despite this, I will never stop making fun of Square or 2 song Johnny over there. It's too much fun.

As for the SS remake? It's obviously a low budget side project. They probably didn't feel approaching Square for the license was worth even the little extra effort or cash for something that wasn't exactly aiming to break records. I wouldn't use it as an indicator of anything.

if I recall correctly , the original Superstar Saga had some of the old SMRPG staff working on it ; This made it easier to add the Geno cameo.

But besides that , you're right , Square was never very stingy toward Geno. Because they have no reason to , it's just another of their properties. So they allow his use depending on the situation.

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

if I recall correctly , the original Superstar Saga had some of the old SMRPG staff working on it ; This made it easier to add the Geno cameo.

But besides that , you're right , Square was never very stingy toward Geno. Because they have no reason to , it's just another of their properties. So they allow his use depending on the situation.

Exactly, they don't have a reason to be stingy towards Geno. No reason to keep him if they don't use him, and selling the SMRPG characters to Nintendo for a FAIR price would be the best decision they've ever done with those characters, and that would probably make Nintendo actually buy them; one of the reasons for not agreeing to Square's offer is probably because it's not a fair trade, as in Square is probably trying to sell Geno, Mallow, and the rest to Nintendo for an expensive price, and it's no wonder why they haven't been bought by Nintendo. Just please release the SMRPG characters from prison... Smithy's been in prison for so long, his beard has probably grown to be 20 feet long.

 

[Deleted member]

Hmmm. Has there been any recent datamines from the 3.0 update?

Nah (anyone else correct me if I'm wrong), we're still playing the waiting game lol.

 

[Teeb147]

Hmmm. Has there been any recent datamines from the 3.0 update?

There is but it's mostly just around joker. They took out the rest of the stuff (so nintendo is at least paying a little attention)

Still on the lookout for anything interesting.

 

[TheAnimatiac]

Well i cant tell you lol

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I don't think it's impossible for Erdrick to have originally been planned for the base game, but if that's the case, why hasn't he been revealed yet? I don't claim to know **** about game development, but if Vergeben started talking about "a new Square-Enix rep" a year ago and claimed that the DQ character would be revealed at the VGAs, then presumably Erdrick would have been in a presentable state for a looong time. We even had the February Direct with its relatively large focus on DQ stuff. I guess they could be saving him for that huge Dragon Quest event that's happening (or did it already happen? I genuinely have no idea).

I mean, assuming that Erdrick is our rep, the reason he hasn’t been revealed yet is that he isn’t ready or Nintendo/Square are not ready to reveal him quite yet. That’s all that means. They’re clearly not showing off more than what’s coming in the immediate horizon this DLC cycle and it seems they didn’t even want to announce Joker when they did. They seem to want to show off DLC when it’s ready/relevant, and that would be the easiest explanation for a lack of any announcement.

Just because you negotiated his appearance doesn’t mean anything to how much work would be done on him (or any character for that matter). He could have been intended base game, then consistently put on hold for this reason and that before he had any real development done and other characters took priority. Then you could have a situation where he may very well be decided upon as a definitive DLC character as far back as September 2018, but he may be slated for release as the third, fourth, or even fifth fighter anyway for any myriad of reasons. There’s lots of context to speculate on, but not a thing known besides Sakurai’s Tweets (and I guess Brave since some people hold a lot more closely to that data than they should, but hey, Hope is hope for some people).

Doesn’t matter if you’ve decided them or not, you wouldn’t show them off til closer to release or in some sort of relevant window for release, so I don’t think it makes any sense to have an expectation of Erdrick (or well, ANY character for that matter) right now or that because they weren’t revealed at event X, we can deconfirm them. That’s just not how this works and we’ve got literally no idea who our next character will be right now. The only thing that has changed with Joker’s release is that Tails got deconfirmed with a Mii costume and the DLC Spirit Board could make situations harder of some characters whose series already have a ton of spirits. That’s really all that has changed in speculation tbh. We’re no closer to confirming, denying, or even establishing a pattern with anything at all.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I don’t see how Geno being added would be a negative in and of itself compared to any other character really. If anything Geno would be a bigger point in terms of diversity gameplay-wise due to being mostly projectile based than another swordfighter for example. Sakurai’s even alluded before to there already being a lot of sword wielding protagonists compared to other types of characters. If anything Sakurai explicitly said that Geno’s moveset would be a great fit for Smash.

I suspect that Sakurai isn't adding Geno because as much as he may like him, Geno doesn't fit his vision of Smash. He might be prioritizing a larger vision over a small personal want.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I suspect that Sakurai isn't adding Geno because as much as he may like him, Geno doesn't fit his vision of Smash. He might be prioritizing a larger vision over a small personal want.

There's an interview that debunks your statements here. Actual quote from Sakurai:

Sakurai: Geno was actually a character I wanted to include as a fighter. He has a gun for an arm, and just seems like he'd fit absolutely perfectly into Smash. I was hoping I'd be able to put him in as far back as Super Smash Bros. Brawl, but unfortunately that never ended up materializing.

And regarding Geno being made a Mii costume because he wanted him in, Sakurai had this to say:

Sakurai: Yes. He's incredibly popular. Even though he's an old character, we keep getting loads of votes and requests for us to put him in the game. Even though he still isn't in as a playable fighter, I made sure he'd be in as a Mii costume so his fans would at least feel that they got something.

Sakurai wants Geno, but Sakurai also admitted that he isn't the only one who wants Geno.

Geno fits his vision of Smash just fine. If characters like Snake, Bayonetta, Villager, Isabelle, Miis, and Mega Man fit into Smash fine, Geno does too. The only character that Sakurai ever admitted having a hard time getting into his vision was Ridley; whom still made it in regardless. Geno doesn't have that problem.

 

[GoodGrief741]

There's an interview that debunks your statements here. Actual quote from Sakurai:


And regarding Geno being made a Mii costume because he wanted him in, Sakurai had this to say:


Sakurai wants Geno, but Sakurai also admitted that he isn't the only one who wants Geno.

Geno fits his vision of Smash just fine. If characters like Snake, Bayonetta, Villager, Isabelle, Miis, and Mega Man fit into Smash fine, Geno does too. The only character that Sakurai ever admitted having a hard time getting into his vision was Ridley; whom still made it in regardless. Geno doesn't have that problem.

That's not what I said. I don't think Sakurai has any trouble envisioning how Geno would play.

What I do think is that Sakurai has this vision of Smash as this massive crossover between videogame giants. Geno, we can all agree, isn't a videogame giant. So, between limited character slots and the troubles of licensing him, he might not be a priority. Especially when you look at the characters and franchises that Square Enix has, there's tons of characters that fit that vision better.

I'm not saying I agree with that vision, but I certainly see it reflected in the game that Ultimate is and in Sakurai's statements.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The video game giant things isn't an important factor either. He clearly has no issues putting in characters who are virtual unknowns(a good chunk of the Nintendo cast, no less). Geno's popularity is more than enough for him to want him in. It still fits the main vision, which is the ultimate video game character crossover. Not everybody will be a gaming legend, and he knows it. Otherwise he'd never have added characters like Ice Climbers. Reality is, the only thing keeping Geno out is SE, not Sakurai. He's extremely clear he wants him in. The theory that he doesn't feel he fits in some way has no basis in reality. It doesn't make any sense. Never mind that not every 3rd party is even a gaming legend(Bayonetta says hi). He clearly isn't going for pure legends only. It's just something he finds can be important for 3rd parties, but it's proven to not be a requirement, but something he takes into account.

 

[Ovaltine]

The video game giant things isn't an important factor either. He clearly has no issues putting in characters who are virtual unknowns(a good chunk of the Nintendo cast, no less). Geno's popularity is more than enough for him to want him in. It still fits the main vision, which is the ultimate video game character crossover. Not everybody will be a gaming legend, and he knows it. Otherwise he'd never have added characters like Ice Climbers. Reality is, the only thing keeping Geno out is SE, not Sakurai. He's extremely clear he wants him in. The theory that he doesn't feel he fits in some way has no basis in reality. It doesn't make any sense. Never mind that not every 3rd party is even a gaming legend(Bayonetta says hi). He clearly isn't going for pure legends only. It's just something he finds can be important for 3rd parties, but it's proven to not be a requirement, but something he takes into account.

Yeah, my guess is the reason Geno isn't in is either because Nintendo or Square doesn't want him in, or he wants to prioritize bigger SE names before getting to Geno. If the latter is the case, then it's really only a matter of time before he's in. I'd dare say after Cloud, Erdrick, and maybe Sora are in, Geno may be next in line. That's why my hopes for him aren't at all there for the Fighter's Pass, but for misc. DLC, they're still pretty solid.

 

[N3ON]

It seems apparent that SE much prefers their characters as DLC, which may explain why he wasn't in base, where he'd make more sense. But inversely, Nintendo seems to prefer characters with wider appeal than Geno for DLC. So it may be a case of the MO of the two respective companies cancelling out any opportunity for Geno.

Or it could just be that Geno's inclusion lacked priority given his popularity, while high, is very specific, his future seems negligible, and his overall prevalence is quite low.

 

[ForsakenM]

Sorry this is so late but the past couple days have had a lot happen so I'm a bit behind considering how the thread has been more active as of late.

Am I the only one not bothered by their 360 appearance? Is the disdain for their most recent appearance colored by the fact that Nuts & Bolts was an awful B-K game? Or is it because it's just different from how they used to look? I associate their new look more with the original teaser for what Nuts & Bolts was supposed to be and look at the redesign somewhat fondly:

Spoiler: Smashified B&K

Now, compare this Smashified artwork to the Nuts and Bolts design, and you'll see a clear difference. N&B attempted to make them look older, which worked out, but there are a lot of things about them that feels off. Kazooie doesn't look like a sassy bird with a big mouth, she looks like she really needs a cigerette or a cigar or a brown bottle. Banjo doesn't look care free at all and has the appearance of a dad trying too hard to be cool. Said by those above me, the blocky design really does not compliment them.

Also, are people REALLY wondering if B&K would make a big splash, worthy of being an E3 reveal. Jesus, look at the mock polls again, guys: B&K kick so much ass and usually hit #1 above our puppet boi and the Golden Boi. Geno's popularity is mostly within the Smash community, hence why you don't see too many people outside of Smash circles talk about him. B&K on the other hand is loved by people from all walks of gaming life and the original is still viewed as the shining example of 3D platforming even to this day, defining the genre and paving the way for future 3D platformers...you know, like all the 'Erdrick fans' use as an argument, except B&K are the only main protagonists and they have way more global appeal.

They are on the same level as Crash or Spyro DESPITE having many less games than both and would rock the world of E3 with their announcement in regards to anything remotely substantial...so yes, it would be a big deal.

For me it's the Super Suit. I've NEVER been able to do 100 super jumps.

^ this....

From the original way back in 1996, to the vc, to the snes mini, I have never been able to get the super suit...

So, you guys are saying you couldn't get the Super Suit, that is to say couldn't obtain it. Another way to say that is you didn't 'find' it, it was missing from your possession and you couldn't find it.

So is it fair to say that you may have in fact thought...

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Okay guys, so while I LOVE what Ovaltine has done with those points and I hate to be a downer about our boy, some things need to be stated real quick.

The introduction of returning Mii Costumes that are of IPs of the same company who owns the DLC character of the Challenger Pack raises some big concerns. It would make much more business sense for Square to have the Geno Mii Costume return alongside the Chocobo hat and new costumes related to a completely different character like Sora or Luminary/Slime at this point than it would be for them to not do so. However, keep in mind that neither Akira's nor Jackie's Mii Costumes returned, which means we could only get some back or possibly none back depending on the circumstances.

The news that is coupled with that above that really makes this hurt is that Challenger Pack characters are all going to come with their own Spirit Board that never changes and will feature a number of Spirits (Joker's features 11, but we may get more or less depending, and since a full Spirit Board is 8 I will assume we will get minimum 8 per Challenger Pack). Joker does not have a Spirit of himself outside of a Fighter Spirit, only of him as part of his team, so this continues to ride the line as far as Spirits and alternate versions/forms. However, this whole Spirit Board features brand-speaking new Spirits and no old ones that are Sega-based...how the heck would this work for Geno considering not only are he and Mallow Spirits, but that SO MANY other Mario RPG characters like Paper Mario and Fawful are already Spirits as well. Sure, there are plenty of SMRPG character to have Spirits of, but it would make more sense if he didn't get a Spirits Board when Mario RPGs are represented enough in Spirits already, and Fighter's Pass character have Spirit Boards...

So yeah, really not looking so hot right now. Not impossible, just not good.

That's not what I said. I don't think Sakurai has any trouble envisioning how Geno would play.

What I do think is that Sakurai has this vision of Smash as this massive crossover between videogame giants. Geno, we can all agree, isn't a videogame giant. So, between limited character slots and the troubles of licensing him, he might not be a priority. Especially when you look at the characters and franchises that Square Enix has, there's tons of characters that fit that vision better.

I'm not saying I agree with that vision, but I certainly see it reflected in the game that Ultimate is and in Sakurai's statements.

The video game giant things isn't an important factor either. He clearly has no issues putting in characters who are virtual unknowns(a good chunk of the Nintendo cast, no less). Geno's popularity is more than enough for him to want him in. It still fits the main vision, which is the ultimate video game character crossover. Not everybody will be a gaming legend, and he knows it. Otherwise he'd never have added characters like Ice Climbers. Reality is, the only thing keeping Geno out is SE, not Sakurai. He's extremely clear he wants him in. The theory that he doesn't feel he fits in some way has no basis in reality. It doesn't make any sense. Never mind that not every 3rd party is even a gaming legend(Bayonetta says hi). He clearly isn't going for pure legends only. It's just something he finds can be important for 3rd parties, but it's proven to not be a requirement, but something he takes into account.

I think both of you have both hit and missed the mark here.

For GoodGrief741 Smash isn't about big names, but celebrating gaming in general, and you can't do that without some characters who aren't big names but mean a lot to the community. Prime examples include, in order of increasing obscurity per series:

• One is an semi-iconic mook, one is a version of Mario from a long-since-passed game, and one is a princess from a game or two that hasn't been relevant for years and sees only spin-offs. If it wasn't for Mario Gang, they would have nothing.
• Hadn't been relevant in gaming for years, only claim was fan demand for a return.
• Villains from an arguably dying 1st-Party franchise, only relevance was fan demand for a return.
• No offense to the EB-Boiz in this thread, but the franchise is pretty dead and still not one of the most known in the West, with the 3rd installment never having an official US release.
• Sadly a dead franchise for whatever freaking reason.
• Dead franchise and hasn't been relevant for YEARS.
• As much as I love Roy My Boy, his game still hasn't has a US release, his relevance being a Smash Classic.
• Super dead, like barely-even-a-video-game-compared-to-today's-standards levels of dead.
• All of them had lost any relevancy until Sakurai fueled Uprising and may fall into obscurity again.
• Has fallen further and further as the Mario Gang soars higher and higher.
• Not even truly from a game, but from long-outdated hardware.
• Went out with the Balance Board.
• Had been irrelevant for a hot minute before the Wii.
• One freaking game from the NES days.
• Not irrelevant but not as well-known even still when overshadowed by "Jackpot!" and "BOI~!"
• Franchise was hanging by a thread and they were barely a part of it anymore.

This and the fact that Pokemon who are no longer representing the shiny and newest generation of games returning even when they aren't nearly as iconic as Pikachu or Charizard, and you can see that being a 'gaming giant' in of themselves isn't the real reason: it's a healthy combo of being big names/frome big names and fan request.

However, I don't think Verde Coeden Scalesworth is right either: it's not about Square Enix. Stop constantly blaming them for everything when it's clear that they have given some sort of rights or permission for Geno to have not only been a costume but to be a Spirit and a profile picture option among Mallow and references to SMRPG. What is truly the issue is a combo of Geno being relevant PURELY from fan demand and determining priority. If Sakurai had chosen Geno over Cloud I would have checked him into a mental ward. This time is a bit different, yet could have the same issues: if Sora or Luminary would take that spot, Sakurai would be kinda nutty for not picking one of them over Geno. However, it's hard to know for sure because of how much pull Geno has with the community that he often rivals Sora if not beating him in polls, and DQ isn't even really on the request map in comparison.

It really just depends, but I would understand if Sakurai again picked someone bigger.