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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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Ze Diglett

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Then, there's the other elephant in the room. The project plan would have been created in late 2005/early 2006 and any third party inclusions would have been decided during that time frame. Square Enix had just returned to Nintendo consoles in the early 2000s after their rocky split in the 90s (http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...e_back_after_losing_final_fantasy_vii_to_sony) and was focusing their Nintendo content on spin-offs and remakes, particularly with an eye to portable games. They were still rebuilding much of that relationship and there's also some evidence that Square needed a way out after their failure with that early 2000s period (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/7103/nintendo-and-square-settlement-details). So, their relationship wasn't exactly stellar or close at the time either. That may have been a huge barrier to Geno in multiple ways that prevented his inclusion without anything being said specifically on Geno. Maybe Sakurai thought Square Enix would be completely to impossible to negotiate with and abandoned the idea of including him. Maybe Square Enix just straight up refused to have anything to do with Smash and Sakurai. Maybe Sakurai pitched an idea for a character in Smash and they decided against it all together.
Yeah, people really tend to forget just how awkward things were between Nintendo and Square Enix back when Brawl was in development. They were barely comfy enough for Mario Hoops 3-on-3, for Pete's sake! (That said, why Geno and Mallow didn't at least have a cameo in that game, I'll never understand.) I honestly highly doubt Sakurai even approached SE at all about Smash until Smash 4 when he got Cloud, and Geno was little more than a personal pipe dream to him until he got Square on board. That's why I won't feel too broken up if DQ gets in; as series, FF and DQ would understandably take priority over Geno at this point, being legendary names in gaming and all, and I can easily see Sakurai going the selfless route and making the decision to include them both before splurging on an obscure character he personally likes. Which would actually be a good thing for us going forward, since it'd mean SE never tried to sack Geno's chances in the first place like many of us here are under the impression they have.
 
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link2702

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Unless your current games aren't working right, there's not much reason to get a new version. Higher resolution barely matters. Now things like fixed bugs/etc. heavily helped a game's playability. HD in itself is barely worth getting a remake over. However, it can be a good idea if you have issues with your current system/game, prefer an updated control scheme, and so on. Or basically, look for reasons besides "somewhat looking better", as it won't heavily improve the enjoyment for you. Which should be an important reason to get any remake. :)
really the only reason I could think of atm is that would make them worth it is portability, but even then I think i'd rather just wait till a sale happens.
 

Mastadoom88

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The video game giant things isn't an important factor either. He clearly has no issues putting in characters who are virtual unknowns(a good chunk of the Nintendo cast, no less). Geno's popularity is more than enough for him to want him in. It still fits the main vision, which is the ultimate video game character crossover. Not everybody will be a gaming legend, and he knows it. Otherwise he'd never have added characters like Ice Climbers. Reality is, the only thing keeping Geno out is SE, not Sakurai. He's extremely clear he wants him in. The theory that he doesn't feel he fits in some way has no basis in reality. It doesn't make any sense. Never mind that not every 3rd party is even a gaming legend(Bayonetta says hi). He clearly isn't going for pure legends only. It's just something he finds can be important for 3rd parties, but it's proven to not be a requirement, but something he takes into account.
I am in absolute agreement with this. Also, though I dont have the exact interview, I believe Sakurai said when asked about Plant that he finds only using protagonists and main characters in general boring. The latter is what makes me doubt as many protags and main characters as the current hot picks would make it on the same pass.

Geno not being a main character or "all star" may be to his benefit. Even if Nintendo is calling the shots, Sakurai does have enough influence I think. Thus i will remain cautiously optimistic. ^_^

Though I'm a nobody in the grand scheme of things, that's just something I keep in mind
 

link2702

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So I found a fellow geno fan in elite smash today, and he used y.link against my own y.link. Hilarious first stock one match where we both ko’d each other at once on the upper blazt zone. I regrettably didn’t catch their complete name as I only noticed the geno tag at the last minute, though i feel like it was a user from here.

So if you remember facing a blue ylink named keeta, GGS.
 

Ovaltine

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What keeps me personally hopeful is actually the fact that Geno would NOT be a good fit for the Fighter's Pass.

Think about it. While he would come with SMRPG spirits, of which we only have himself and Mallow, he'd also come with more Mario music and a stage. SMRPG music would be great and general Mario RPG representation is very low, but would people really be happy with more Mario in the big blowout Fighter's Pass? Maybe more insular fans wouldn't mind, but in the grand scheme of things, it'd make less market sense.

You know what would, though? Release the SE rep with Geno's costume for the Fighter's Pass for now, as a way of saying, "Hey, we still remember him," along with all of the other references we've been getting. After the FP is done and over with, they can either make lesser waves with more hardcore fan-based picks (given the more hardcore Smash fans will still be playing at this time, lesser so than the casual fan base), or they can release individual DLC. Small waves that feature only a fighter with some music and maybe spirits would be where Geno would be a great fit, as well as individual DLC. After all, we do have an entirely separate 'individual DLC' on the Nintendo website for individual fighters, wherein only Piranha Plant is listed. Why would they make an entire, huge, dedicated sub-section for only one fighter?

Besides, we've all already established that Sakurai, because of his own work standards and Japan's workforce culture, likely won't take a break, as much as it'd be nice if he did. The DLC team is growing smaller with each character. A small team would be better capable of handling the smaller picks that require less work, i.e. characters like Geno. We likely won't see a new Smash until the Switch's successor, which won't be happening for who knows how long. Sakurai seems more relaxed and happier with more free time working on Ultimate's DLC rather than a whole game. This stuff would print money. He wants to do 'as much as he can for Ultimate', as he's already stated verbatim.

This is why I recommend keeping our support as alive as possible, even if the Mii costume comes with another rep. It's entirely expected at this point, and even so, it doesn't mean Geno is out completely. Does it mean he's out for now? Absolutely. Does that mean his chances are totally wiped for Ultimate, despite a possibly longer future for its DLC cycle? No. If we keep our demand low because of the Mii costume, then we'll just be slipping into Sm4sh territory again.

We cannot stop supporting our boy, even if things look super bleak. Let's keep our chins up, aye?
 
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The Anigriffin

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So Polar mentioned something that Nintendo has that all of us would love in April back in March.

1556038557242.png


I guess I'm just confused since I'm not sure if something big happened and I missed it or something. Just curious.
 

Ovaltine

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So Polar mentioned something that Nintendo has that all of us would love in April back in March.

View attachment 211640

I guess I'm just confused since I'm not sure if something big happened and I missed it or something. Just curious.
I dunno, probably wrong info. I doubt it'd be the 3.0.0 update, given it was a bunch of stuff we already knew about. Yeah, it was sick and Joker is wonderful, but nothing to tease like that.
 

The Anigriffin

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I dunno, probably wrong info. I doubt it'd be the 3.0.0 update, given it was a bunch of stuff we already knew about. Yeah, it was sick and Joker is wonderful, but nothing to tease like that.
Part of me can't help but wonder if it's tied to the reveal Fatman mentioned... Perhaps it was planned for April but got pushed back?
 

EricTheGamerman

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Part of me can't help but wonder if it's tied to the reveal Fatman mentioned... Perhaps it was planned for April but got pushed back?
Or it’s information that was never actually intended for April and Polar was speculating about its reveal. Or maybe there was some evidence about a Direct happening that just ended up being the Smash update trailer.

I’m still inclined to doubt much was ever going to happen in April with regards to Nintendo. February and the most notable Nindies Direct and a Pokemon Direct have just happened and they had laid out so much of their plans for the immediate future that additional information would just make for a more lackluster E3. Nintendo generally doesn’t release too much stuff too close together, and the second half of 2019 has been filling up fast already.
 
D

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What keeps me personally hopeful is actually the fact that Geno would NOT be a good fit for the Fighter's Pass.

Think about it. While he would come with SMRPG spirits, of which we only have himself and Mallow, he'd also come with more Mario music and a stage. SMRPG music would be great and general Mario RPG representation is very low, but would people really be happy with more Mario in the big blowout Fighter's Pass? Maybe more insular fans wouldn't mind, but in the grand scheme of things, it'd make less market sense.

You know what would, though? Release the SE rep with Geno's costume for the Fighter's Pass for now, as a way of saying, "Hey, we still remember him," along with all of the other references we've been getting. After the FP is done and over with, they can either make lesser waves with more hardcore fan-based picks (given the more hardcore Smash fans will still be playing at this time, lesser so than the casual fan base), or they can release individual DLC. Small waves that feature only a fighter with some music and maybe spirits would be where Geno would be a great fit, as well as individual DLC. After all, we do have an entirely separate 'individual DLC' on the Nintendo website for individual fighters, wherein only Piranha Plant is listed. Why would they make an entire, huge, dedicated sub-section for only one fighter?

Besides, we've all already established that Sakurai, because of his own work standards and Japan's workforce culture, likely won't take a break, as much as it'd be nice if he did. The DLC team is growing smaller with each character. A small team would be better capable of handling the smaller picks that require less work, i.e. characters like Geno. We likely won't see a new Smash until the Switch's successor, which won't be happening for who knows how long. Sakurai seems more relaxed and happier with more free time working on Ultimate's DLC rather than a whole game. This stuff would print money. He wants to do 'as much as he can for Ultimate', as he's already stated verbatim.

This is why I recommend keeping our support as alive as possible, even if the Mii costume comes with another rep. It's entirely expected at this point, and even so, it doesn't mean Geno is out completely. Does it mean he's out for now? Absolutely. Does that mean his chances are totally wiped for Ultimate, despite a possibly longer future for its DLC cycle? No. If we keep our demand low because of the Mii costume, then we'll just be slipping into Sm4sh territory again.

We cannot stop supporting our boy, even if things look super bleak. Let's keep our chins up, aye?
I think you're looking too much into what other people don't want.

An SMRPG stage would be awesome. Think about it - Forest Maze, Star Hill, Smithy's factory, Tadpole Pond, Booster Tower....he has so much potential for a stage, and his potential stages are different from the kinds of Mario stages we already have.

For the Mii costume, it wouldn't be a huge step in terms of showing they remember Geno due to him also being a Mii costume in Smash 4. And you're trying to make a scenario in which everyone but us is happy with the outcome. That's not really our job.

Everything said here could also be said for any future DLC waves, so your post would give the message more of "Geno ain't happening" rather than "don't give up, he has a chance for the future."
 

Ovaltine

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I think you're looking too much into what other people don't want.

An SMRPG stage would be awesome. Think about it - Forest Maze, Star Hill, Smithy's factory, Tadpole Pond, Booster Tower....he has so much potential for a stage, and his potential stages are different from the kinds of Mario stages we already have.

For the Mii costume, it wouldn't be a huge step in terms of showing they remember Geno due to him also being a Mii costume in Smash 4. And you're trying to make a scenario in which everyone but us is happy with the outcome. That's not really our job.

Everything said here could also be said for any future DLC waves, so your post would give the message more of "Geno ain't happening" rather than "don't give up, he has a chance for the future."
Except you're not acknowledging the nuance behind future waves being more fan-focused because they will be the core audience by that time, as well as the implications of individual DLC. The thing is, I'm looking less into 'what other people don't want' and more into the state of the fan base from a more objective standpoint. I'd love a SMRPG stage, but I personally think it isn't necessary. I just want Geno, and the music would be really nice to have, too.

The fact of the matter is the Fighter's Pass is dipping into a wider pool, from the sound of things. Geno wouldn't fit that standard. If we get future DLC with different circumstances behind them, it means they probably won't be just like the Fighter's Pass and may give lesser third parties and first parties more of a chance again. Timing is the essence here. You have to look at this from a marketing, outsider perspective and think of things realistically.
 
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Except you're not acknowledging the nuance behind future waves being more fan-focused because they will be the core audience by that time, as well as the implications of individual DLC. The thing is, I'm looking less into 'what other people don't want' and more into the state of the fan base from a more objective standpoint. I'd love a SMRPG stage, but I personally think it isn't necessary. I just want Geno, and the music would be really nice to have, too.

The fact of the matter is the Fighter's Pass is dipping into a wider pool, from the sound of things. Geno wouldn't fit that standard. If we get future DLC with different circumstances behind them, it means they probably won't be just like the Fighter's Pass and may give lesser third parties and first parties more of a chance again. Timing is the essence here. You have to look at this from a marketing, outsider perspective and think of things realistically.
I don't really think there will be a set sort of theme with any wave of DLC. I thought the entire Ultimate base roster would be fan favorites just because Ridley and K Rool were, and I was wrong.

Because of that, I don't think there will be a sole general-audience-appealing wave, a sole fan favorite wave, or a sole third or first party wave. I think each of them will have a mix (part of the reason I'm confident about Geno in this wave).
 

The Anigriffin

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I still think it's a bit early to assume anything about all the characters in the pass when only one, who was a complete shock to everyone was revealed.

This dry period is really taking a toll on us... Six months between reveals... Maybe it's all part of Sakurai's plan to make us suffer.
 

NintendoKnight

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Except you're not acknowledging the nuance behind future waves being more fan-focused because they will be the core audience by that time, as well as the implications of individual DLC. The thing is, I'm looking less into 'what other people don't want' and more into the state of the fan base from a more objective standpoint. I'd love a SMRPG stage, but I personally think it isn't necessary. I just want Geno, and the music would be really nice to have, too.

The fact of the matter is the Fighter's Pass is dipping into a wider pool, from the sound of things. Geno wouldn't fit that standard. If we get future DLC with different circumstances behind them, it means they probably won't be just like the Fighter's Pass and may give lesser third parties and first parties more of a chance again. Timing is the essence here. You have to look at this from a marketing, outsider perspective and think of things realistically.
You're assuming that we're going to get fighters outside of the fighter's pass. Nothing of the sort has ever been officially stated. It may be a safe assumption, but it's still nothing more than an assumption. If the Fighter's Pass is the end of the DLC, which is a realistic conclusion, and Geno is not among the Fighters in the pass, then we simply don't get Geno.

If such is the case, getting Geno in the Fighter's Pass is the thing everyone in this thread wants. It may not be what you want anymore, but don't you dare think of speaking for the rest of us in that regard. I want a stage with Geno, and I want music for that stage. Is it necessary? Was it for Joker? Or Simon? Or Bayonetta? Pac-Man, Mega Man, Sonic, Snake? Each third party character gets their own stage, matter of fact. Geno would be given the same treatment.

It's not unrealistic to want Geno for the Fighter's Pass. And to suggest so is quitter's talk.
 
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Ovaltine

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You're assuming that we're going to get fighters outside of the fighter's pass. Nothing of the sort has ever been officially stated. It may be a safe assumption, but it's still nothing more than an assumption. If the Fighter's Pass is the end of the DLC, which is a realistic conclusion, and Geno is not among the Fighters in the pass, then we simply don't get Geno.

If such is the case, getting Geno in the Fighter's Pass is the thing everyone in this thread wants. It may not be what you want anymore, but don't you dare speak for the rest of us in that regard. I want a stage with Geno, and I want music for that stage. Is it necessary? Was it for Joker? Or Simon? Or Bayonetta? Pac-Man, Mega Man, Sonic, Snake? Each third party character gets their own stage, matter of fact. Geno would be given the same treatment.

It's not unrealistic to want Geno for the Fighter's Pass. And to suggest so is quitter's talk.
Assumption would be to say that I am certain of getting future DLC, when my posts have been basically littered with 'ifs' and hypotheses. I'm in no way certain that we are getting that. It may seem likely, but the Fighter's Pass could be all we get, for all we know.

Trust me, I want Geno in the pass, too. I want that more than anything else in the world. However, I'm trying to look at this from a different perspective, that's all. There's no need to be so angry and accusatory when, if anything, I'm trying to shed a little light in a situation that looks rather bleak. My ultimate goal of this is saying that it's not over until it's over, and that is that. There is still so much that we don't know.

Wanting him isn't unrealistic. Heck, even hoping for him in the pass isn't unrealistic either. It's not impossible. However, this is my stance. There's no need to take it so personally.
 
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You're assuming that we're going to get fighters outside of the fighter's pass. Nothing of the sort has ever been officially stated. It may be a safe assumption, but it's still nothing more than an assumption. If the Fighter's Pass is the end of the DLC, which is a realistic conclusion, and Geno is not among the Fighters in the pass, then we simply don't get Geno.

If such is the case, getting Geno in the Fighter's Pass is the thing everyone in this thread wants. It may not be what you want anymore, but don't you dare speak for the rest of us in that regard. I want a stage with Geno, and I want music for that stage. Is it necessary? Was it for Joker? Or Simon? Or Bayonetta? Pac-Man, Mega Man, Sonic, Snake? Each third party character gets their own stage, matter of fact. Geno would be given the same treatment.

It's not unrealistic to want Geno for the Fighter's Pass. And to suggest so is quitter's talk.
While I do think we're getting more DLC (and I think the tone here was kinda harsh), I agree that Geno is fit for wave 1.
 

NintendoKnight

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Assumption would be to say that I am certain of getting future DLC, when my posts have been basically littered with 'ifs' and hypotheses. I'm in no way certain that we are getting that. It may seem likely, but the Fighter's Pass could be all we get, for all we know.

Trust me, I want Geno in the pass, too. I want that more than anything else in the world. However, I'm trying to look at this from a different perspective, that's all. There's no need to be so angry and accusatory when, if anything, I'm trying to shed a little light in a situation that looks rather bleak. My ultimate goal of this is saying that it's not over until it's over, and that is that. There is still so much that we don't know.

Wanting him isn't unrealistic. Heck, even hoping for him in the pass isn't unrealistic either. It's not impossible. However, this is my stance. There's no need to take it so personally.
Please forgive my tone for sounding harsh or as if I was offended in any sort of way by your remarks. I'm not angry, nor have I taken anything personally. Regardless of my emotional state, there are still things I disagree with in your posts and wish to talk about them.

For example, your claim about Geno being unfit for the first wave:

The fact of the matter is the Fighter's Pass is dipping into a wider pool, from the sound of things. Geno wouldn't fit that standard.
That type of statement is what I was trying to address, though I probably failed in getting my thoughts across properly. And for that, again, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, I merely want to address the things you did say.

I, personally, find Geno to be very fitting for the Fighter's Pass. Worthy of both stage and music.

While I do think we're getting more DLC (and I think the tone here was kinda harsh), I agree that Geno is fit for wave 1.
Here's the funny part: I actually believe we're getting more DLC, too. Though it's more of a want than anything else. If it happens that we don't get anything more once the Fighter's Pass finishes, I'm content with that; Geno or not.

And yes, I agree the tone was a bit more harsh than I intended. Not that I intended it to be harsh, I wanted it to sound a bit more... firm? But I get impassioned about the things I enjoy talking about (or during an argument), and naturally my speech gets heated to reflect that. (It also tends to get more unfiltered the more impassioned I become)

Ovaltine Ovaltine I'm sorry for sounding like a jerk. From what I've seen, you're a pretty swell person. You kept your cool despite my comments.
 

Ovaltine

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Please forgive my tone for sounding harsh or as if I was offended in any sort of way by your remarks. I'm not angry, nor have I taken anything personally. Regardless of my emotional state, there are still things I disagree with in your posts and wish to talk about them.

For example, your claim about Geno being unfit for the first wave:

That type of statement is what I was trying to address, though I probably failed in getting my thoughts across properly. And for that, again, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, I merely want to address the things you did say.

I, personally, find Geno to be very fitting for the Fighter's Pass. Worthy of both stage and music.

Here's the funny part: I actually believe we're getting more DLC, too. Though it's more of a want than anything else. If it happens that we don't get anything more once the Fighter's Pass finishes, I'm content with that; Geno or not.

And yes, I agree the tone was a bit more harsh than I intended. Not that I intended it to be harsh, I wanted it to sound a bit more... firm? But I get impassioned about the things I enjoy talking about (or during an argument), and naturally my speech gets heated to reflect that. (It also tends to get more unfiltered the more impassioned I become)

Ovaltine Ovaltine I'm sorry for sounding like a jerk. From what I've seen, you're a pretty swell person. You kept your cool despite my comments.
Thank you so much for being so receptive to my response. I was a little spooked, admittedly, and I was worried I was being too harsh myself, haha. I'm just trying to make things a little better and give more options if Fighter's Pass falls through.

Personally, I'd love for Geno to be in the Fighter's Pass with all of the fixings. A stage, spirits, music, little extra nods like Joker has with his victory screens and such... I'd kill for that. I'd love that more than anything. I guess what I meant to say was... I think we're more in the minority when it comes to that, and I'm trying to think more of how Nintendo would in such a case, given they chose the DLC. It's like, I'm trying to insert my heads into their thinking to see what might end up being the likeliest path for Geno, you know?

Whatever the case, it's all good. We chill. :drflip: I get very passionate, too, so it's all understandable!
 
D

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Please forgive my tone for sounding harsh or as if I was offended in any sort of way by your remarks. I'm not angry, nor have I taken anything personally. Regardless of my emotional state, there are still things I disagree with in your posts and wish to talk about them.

For example, your claim about Geno being unfit for the first wave:



That type of statement is what I was trying to address, though I probably failed in getting my thoughts across properly. And for that, again, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, I merely want to address the things you did say.

I, personally, find Geno to be very fitting for the Fighter's Pass. Worthy of both stage and music.



Here's the funny part: I actually believe we're getting more DLC, too. Though it's more of a want than anything else. If it happens that we don't get anything more once the Fighter's Pass finishes, I'm content with that; Geno or not.

And yes, I agree the tone was a bit more harsh than I intended. Not that I intended it to be harsh, I wanted it to sound a bit more... firm? But I get impassioned about the things I enjoy talking about (or during an argument), and naturally my speech gets heated to reflect that. (It also tends to get more unfiltered the more impassioned I become)

Ovaltine Ovaltine I'm sorry for sounding like a jerk. From what I've seen, you're a pretty swell person. You kept your cool despite my comments.
No worries, man. I get like that too haha.

Thank you so much for being so receptive to my response. I was a little spooked, admittedly, and I was worried I was being too harsh myself, haha. I'm just trying to make things a little better and give more options if Fighter's Pass falls through.

Personally, I'd love for Geno to be in the Fighter's Pass with all of the fixings. A stage, spirits, music, little extra nods like Joker has with his victory screens and such... I'd kill for that. I'd love that more than anything. I guess what I meant to say was... I think we're more in the minority when it comes to that, and I'm trying to think more of how Nintendo would in such a case, given they chose the DLC. It's like, I'm trying to insert my heads into their thinking to see what might end up being the likeliest path for Geno, you know?

Whatever the case, it's all good. We chill. :drflip: I get very passionate, too, so it's all understandable!
I apologize too if I came as impatient lol. I may take this kind of thing too seriously at times.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I am in absolute agreement with this. Also, though I dont have the exact interview, I believe Sakurai said when asked about Plant that he finds only using protagonists and main characters in general boring. The latter is what makes me doubt as many protags and main characters as the current hot picks would make it on the same pass.

Geno not being a main character or "all star" may be to his benefit. Even if Nintendo is calling the shots, Sakurai does have enough influence I think. Thus i will remain cautiously optimistic. ^_^

Though I'm a nobody in the grand scheme of things, that's just something I keep in mind
Keep in mind that Geno is a main character in his game. He's a side character for the Mario franchise in general. He's no all star, though, yeah. He's rather obscure, respectively. Love the character, but fan picks can still be obscure, heh.

Geno's still possible, especially when the big gun, Cloud, is out of the way. But other bigger characters may become higher priority. It's hard to say exactly if Sakurai tried to get both Cloud and Geno or only went with Cloud knowing he'd be easier to get for Smash during 4(due to only so much DLC being possible). He might've only went for Geno to be a costume in that case. It's rather likely he failed to get Geno as playable from SE during Brawl and Ultimate at best. Geno was definitely more than "considered", anyway. Unlike Heihachi, Sakurai has made a clear attempt to get the character as playable. He had no qualms adding him if he could, after all. In Heihachi's case, he couldn't find a way to transfer the mechanics of Tekken faithfully over(things like 3D mechanics don't work well in Smash). Besides that, a general thing about 3rd parties is that he's a bit more picky in how he represents them(Echoes can be somewhat different), where this is far less of an issue with 1st/2nd parties. That's likewise with how the companies are(though that applies to The Pokemon Company too, which is why most of the Pokemon costumes bar Pikachu and Jigglypuff are really bad). Bayonetta has her combos, Cloud has his limit, Sonic is pretty much "fast movement where you can't tell what he does next", MegaMan is all about the Robot Masters, and so on. So if he doesn't put Heihachi in, it means he doesn't think he can transfer Tekken's mechanics in a way that makes the character feel reasonable. Despite him getting how a Persona is used off with Joker, there's still blatant love and care to it. But he also found a way to make the summon mechanic work in some way, despite not being perfectly faithful.

In Geno's case, stuff like timed hits might be important for him if he gets in.

really the only reason I could think of atm is that would make them worth it is portability, but even then I think i'd rather just wait till a sale happens.
That's definitely a good reason. Though yeah, wait for a sale. I'm doing that these days for most games, even as a collector.
 

Mastadoom88

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I love the level of civility in here. Especially in text, things get misconstrued rather easily.

I want Geno more than anything in the realm of gaming. And like Ovaltine, I'm not as confident as I once was, particularly with the release of Joker, seeing what he came with, but I still believe it's very possible and realistic. I dont buy this flavor of the week Erdrick noise (in fact I still stand by Sora being his greatest competitor, whom I detest, though that's another kettle of fish), but I dont think it's over. In fact, far from it.

I think people are underestimating Geno's chances.

admittedly, it's sad to see Geno nowhere in Papagenos latest spec video (a bit demoralizing when someone who wants him as much as I do doesnt see a future for him in this game), but I will die on this (star) hill, even at risk of my being let down. It cant feel any worse than this cycle has felt since November, being a Geno fan and hearing Hes a spirit ad nauseum
 

EricTheGamerman

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Geno's still possible, especially when the big gun, Cloud, is out of the way. But other bigger characters may become higher priority. It's hard to say exactly if Sakurai tried to get both Cloud and Geno or only went with Cloud knowing he'd be easier to get for Smash during 4(due to only so much DLC being possible). He might've only went for Geno to be a costume in that case. It's rather likely he failed to get Geno as playable from SE during Brawl and Ultimate at best. Geno was definitely more than "considered", anyway. Unlike Heihachi, Sakurai has made a clear attempt to get the character as playable. He had no qualms adding him if he could, after all.
I'm still going to insist you source the idea of Geno being more than "considered." There's no tangible proof to that idea. You may choose to personally interpret Sakurai's comments as that, and that's fine, but there's nothing to indicate why Geno didn't make it into Brawl. I outlined all of the potential issues that may have arisen earlier. I do not see evidence of a "clear attempt to get the character as playable." I only see Sakurai mentioning that he was interested in Geno during the Brawl era, but that it didn't happen. He may not have a clearly defined issue like Heihachi does, but that doesn't mean Sakurai didn't perceive a different issue with Geno. I similarly don't see any sort of clear statement that indicates that Sakurai "had no qualms adding him if he could." Interest in adding a character cannot be extended to attempts at development or negotiation.

Geno's certainly possible (And I tend to agree with Ovaltine Ovaltine on the idea of him having a better shot as an independent DLC as opposed to the Fighter's Pass), but I don't think there's really anything to indicate that there's ever been a previous full attempt to make Geno playable. I think Sakurai's statements are generally vague and demonstrate that he has an interest in the character and that he had at least considered him during the Brawl era, but I think talking anything more of that is speculative at best and there's tons of potential factors to consider in that speculation.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I'm still going to insist you source the idea of Geno being more than "considered." There's no tangible proof to that idea. You may choose to personally interpret Sakurai's comments as that, and that's fine, but there's nothing to indicate why Geno didn't make it into Brawl. I outlined all of the potential issues that may have arisen earlier. I do not see evidence of a "clear attempt to get the character as playable." I only see Sakurai mentioning that he was interested in Geno during the Brawl era, but that it didn't happen. He may not have a clearly defined issue like Heihachi does, but that doesn't mean Sakurai didn't perceive a different issue with Geno. I similarly don't see any sort of clear statement that indicates that Sakurai "had no qualms adding him if he could." Interest in adding a character cannot be extended to attempts at development or negotiation.
"I've wanted Geno in since Brawl" means it's absolutely more than considered. Consideration is nothing more than a thought that they could potentially work. He clearly will get him in if he can, no ifs, ands, or buts. He's beyond clear about this. It's not just a consideration. It doesn't mean it went beyond "I want him in", obviously.

Geno's certainly possible (And I tend to agree with Ovaltine Ovaltine on the idea of him having a better shot as an independent DLC as opposed to the Fighter's Pass), but I don't think there's really anything to indicate that there's ever been a previous full attempt to make Geno playable. I think Sakurai's statements are generally vague and demonstrate that he has an interest in the character and that he had at least considered him during the Brawl era, but I think talking anything more of that is speculative at best and there's tons of potential factors to consider in that speculation.
No, it's clear he outright wants him in. It's not simply consideration.

That's not what consideration means in itself. It means "I thought about the character" and nothing more(which is pretty much what I just said above). He considered Heihachi but dismissed him. He considered Banjo & Kazooie as well as James Bond, but dismissed them. He made it clear he wants Geno in, period. It's definitely not a consideration whatsoever. It's a hard "I want him in". It doesn't mean he went to SE to get him playable(though it likely happened during Brawl), since that's a completely different thing. The character wasn't planned either, obviously. Those happen after the character would get licensed(which we know he wasn't licensed to be playable specifically during Brawl or 4. He might've been during Ultimate, but we can't know that). It just means he went beyond consideration, but never got to the playable stage. Pretty sure it was already quoted here on his opinion of Geno. Let me find it, but you're using the word Consideration wrong in this context.

Actually, I can use your own message to explain that; "Geno was actually a character I wanted to include as a fighter... I was hoping I'd be able to put him in as far back as Brawl, but unfortunately that never ended up materializing." He is beyond consideration at that point. He's a character he entirely wants playable. Considered characters are just those who were thoughts of who could be in. But they often don't go beyond that. He went beyond that particular thought. Whether or not he actually ever went to SE is definitely up for debate, though there's little explanation for why he couldn't get him in Brawl beyond SE saying no that has any real logic behind it. Sakurai does go to 3rd parties to get a character(he asked Sega first). Only Kojima ever asked Sakurai to put in Snake during Brawl. In almost every case, he goes to a 3rd party first. As I noted at some point(I'm not sure if in this topic), Sonic was a guarantee if Sega said yes, regardless of the fact Yuji Naka asked for him during Melee. He's a massive icon. No way he wouldn't have tried to get Sega on board during Brawl even if Yuji Naka didn't ask for him in the previous game, basically. Another interesting example is Pac-Man, who solely fell under consideration. He didn't outright say he "wanted him in", just that it was an idea that Miyamoto had, but he couldn't figure out how to make the character work. The big difference between any other considered character is Sakurai did not make it clear "I want the character in". It's a different context and changes everything. We have zero reason to believe Nintendo stopped Sakurai from doing anything. It's of course possible budget prevented Geno from getting in, and though he outright wanted him in, he couldn't go beyond that and never asked.

But let's not pretend he didn't go well beyond the simple consideration phase, because he blatantly did. You posted the source yourself. It's pretty much Consideration -> Want in -> Licensing(if applicable, and this step can be skipped if he doesn't have to license anything) -> Working on the character -> Them actually being in the game as playable. Geno's the only notable consideration that strictly falls under the "Want in" stage, putting him in a far more important place in Sakurai's mind than any other consideration(respectively, this could change as we find out more information. As of now, it's the only character that fits that particular context). That doesn't mean it would affect anything, of course. I agree with that. I do believe SE saying no is still a far more likely possibly than anything than Brawl, but I agree no evidence pushes it directly towards it. There's just zero evidence to show any other reason Geno was not playable in that game. SE being very stringy, as shown in practice, makes them the most logical explanation(not the truth, just the most logical. You're right I dismissed other possibilities too easily. That was my bad).
 
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Sovereign Trinity

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What keeps me personally hopeful is actually the fact that Geno would NOT be a good fit for the Fighter's Pass.

Think about it. While he would come with SMRPG spirits, of which we only have himself and Mallow, he'd also come with more Mario music and a stage. SMRPG music would be great and general Mario RPG representation is very low, but would people really be happy with more Mario in the big blowout Fighter's Pass? Maybe more insular fans wouldn't mind, but in the grand scheme of things, it'd make less market sense.
Well, I should throw this out there... no matter what or whoever makes it in Smash, people will and will not be pleased. When Joker was confirmed for the DLC, I and many were pleased and wanting him bad, but there were others pissed about his inclusion and didn't have plans on getting him; someone in here even said they'll individually buy the DLC fighters because of Joker. So no matter the cost, whoever makes it as a DLC character, people will be and will not be happy. Mario is Nintendo's flagship franchise, so it makes sense, even after Piranha Plant because it didn't come with anything except the character itself, but you're correct, people won't be happy about it being represented again. But I still agree with what you say, Ovaltine.

I wanted to think about this as well, but it makes me wonder why Paper Mario hasn't been considered as a playable character yet... is Sakurai saving that Mario RPG representation spot for someone else? I think there's a reason why Paper Mario hasn't been added yet, but maybe it's because he's saving that spot for someone like Geno or Mallow; Sakurai prefers originality over the modern days, and he made an example with that about PAC-MAN's design. Remember that SMRPG is what brought life to Paper Mario and the Mario & Luigi RPG games, so Sakurai could have a possible view of that as well.
 

Loliko YnT

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Alright folks , I know this is a SMRPG thread , but I really wanted to share this M&L fan-art with you all :
There was a problem fetching the tweet

You can't imagine how happy this made me. The Mario RPGs were and will always be pure joy to me.
 

EricTheGamerman

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"I've wanted Geno in since Brawl" means it's absolutely more than considered. Consideration is nothing more than a thought that they could potentially work. He clearly will get him in if he can, no ifs, ands, or buts. He's beyond clear about this. It's not just a consideration. It doesn't mean it went beyond "I want him in", obviously.


No, it's clear he outright wants him in. It's not simply consideration.

That's not what consideration means in itself. It means "I thought about the character" and nothing more(which is pretty much what I just said above). He considered Heihachi but dismissed him. He considered Banjo & Kazooie as well as James Bond, but dismissed them. He made it clear he wants Geno in, period. It's definitely not a consideration whatsoever. It's a hard "I want him in". It doesn't mean he went to SE to get him playable(though it likely happened during Brawl), since that's a completely different thing. The character wasn't planned either, obviously. Those happen after the character would get licensed(which we know he wasn't licensed to be playable specifically during Brawl or 4. He might've been during Ultimate, but we can't know that). It just means he went beyond consideration, but never got to the playable stage. Pretty sure it was already quoted here on his opinion of Geno. Let me find it, but you're using the word Consideration wrong in this context.

Actually, I can use your own message to explain that; "Geno was actually a character I wanted to include as a fighter... I was hoping I'd be able to put him in as far back as Brawl, but unfortunately that never ended up materializing." He is beyond consideration at that point. He's a character he entirely wants playable. Considered characters are just those who were thoughts of who could be in. But they often don't go beyond that. He went beyond that particular thought. Whether or not he actually ever went to SE is definitely up for debate, though there's little explanation for why he couldn't get him in Brawl beyond SE saying no that has any real logic behind it. Sakurai does go to 3rd parties to get a character(he asked Sega first). Only Kojima ever asked Sakurai to put in Snake during Brawl. In almost every case, he goes to a 3rd party first. As I noted at some point(I'm not sure if in this topic), Sonic was a guarantee if Sega said yes, regardless of the fact Yuji Naka asked for him during Melee. He's a massive icon. No way he wouldn't have tried to get Sega on board during Brawl even if Yuji Naka didn't ask for him in the previous game, basically. Another interesting example is Pac-Man, who solely fell under consideration. He didn't outright say he "wanted him in", just that it was an idea that Miyamoto had, but he couldn't figure out how to make the character work. The big difference between any other considered character is Sakurai did not make it clear "I want the character in". It's a different context and changes everything. We have zero reason to believe Nintendo stopped Sakurai from doing anything. It's of course possible budget prevented Geno from getting in, and though he outright wanted him in, he couldn't go beyond that and never asked.

But let's not pretend he didn't go well beyond the simple consideration phase, because he blatantly did. You posted the source yourself. It's pretty much Consideration -> Want in -> Licensing(if applicable, and this step can be skipped if he doesn't have to license anything) -> Working on the character -> Them actually being in the game as playable. Geno's the only notable consideration that strictly falls under the "Want in" stage, putting him in a far more important place in Sakurai's mind than any other consideration(respectively, this could change as we find out more information. As of now, it's the only character that fits that particular context). That doesn't mean it would affect anything, of course. I agree with that. I do believe SE saying no is still a far more likely possibly than anything than Brawl, but I agree no evidence pushes it directly towards it. There's just zero evidence to show any other reason Geno was not playable in that game. SE being very stringy, as shown in practice, makes them the most logical explanation(not the truth, just the most logical. You're right I dismissed other possibilities too easily. That was my bad).
I see how you're defining the difference between "considered" and "wanting in" now. Perhaps I should have defined how I was using that myself as I was implying that "considered" encompassed all non-committal acts of Smash planning: Basically "considering" which newcomers to add and thinking about their inclusion pre-development of the official project plan. I don't really make the same distinction between "consideration" and "want-in" because I'm not sure it's super important to separate those ideas as they all rely upon Sakurai prior to officially working on the character. I agree that wanting him in is a big deal because it allows the fandom to live on and inspires hope in most of us that Sakurai has an active interest in the character. But beyond that, they're basically the same as concepts and ideas in Sakurai's mind.

I don't think I'm using "considered" wrong though. Merriam-Webster defines "consider" as "to think about carefully" usually in the context of "to think of especially with regard to taking some action." (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consider). Reflecting upon Geno as a character and deciding that you're interested or want to include him can still conceivably fall into the thinking process prior to actually taking action on those thoughts. If you decide to draw the line of "action" at him figuring out that he wants Geno, fair enough. But I think it's also entirely reasonable to draw the line at actively working towards his inclusion as the paramount "action" in this scenario. And again, we don't have any definitive proof of there ever having been any real "action" beyond Sakurai done in the name of Geno from the Brawl era. I think it just comes down to us using the terms in slightly different ways. Until I have a proof of "action" in regards to Geno, I'm not going to separate him from the "consideration" phase as it were. Wanting a character in is a different mental state than just considering their merits and potential inclusion, but it may not necessarily have physical ramifications or resulted in any actions carried out.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I see how you're defining the difference between "considered" and "wanting in" now. Perhaps I should have defined how I was using that myself as I was implying that "considered" encompassed all non-committal acts of Smash planning: Basically "considering" which newcomers to add and thinking about their inclusion pre-development of the official project plan. I don't really make the same distinction between "consideration" and "want-in" because I'm not sure it's super important to separate those ideas as they all rely upon Sakurai prior to officially working on the character. I agree that wanting him in is a big deal because it allows the fandom to live on and inspires hope in most of us that Sakurai has an active interest in the character. But beyond that, they're basically the same as concepts and ideas in Sakurai's mind.

I don't think I'm using "considered" wrong though. Merriam-Webster defines "consider" as "to think about carefully" usually in the context of "to think of especially with regard to taking some action." (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consider). Reflecting upon Geno as a character and deciding that you're interested or want to include him can still conceivably fall into the thinking process prior to actually taking action on those thoughts. If you decide to draw the line of "action" at him figuring out that he wants Geno, fair enough. But I think it's also entirely reasonable to draw the line at actively working towards his inclusion as the paramount "action" in this scenario. And again, we don't have any definitive proof of there ever having been any real "action" beyond Sakurai done in the name of Geno from the Brawl era. I think it just comes down to us using the terms in slightly different ways. Until I have a proof of "action" in regards to Geno, I'm not going to separate him from the "consideration" phase as it were. Wanting a character in is a different mental state than just considering their merits and potential inclusion, but it may not necessarily have physical ramifications or resulted in any actions carried out.
You're still ignoring the fact that he's not in the same situation as many others, and that's a huge deal. He wants him in. He doesn't want many other characters that are considered in. Thus, it's not the same situation no matter what. There's a huge difference between Geno's situation, and ones like Heihachi.

There's absolutely no reason to believe he would've tried to get Heihachi in the game during 4, as he was outright dismissed rather quickly as he couldn't be translated. There is a reason to believe he would've asked SE for Geno and they said no. That's actually remotely possible because the situations are completely different.

You're giving SE too much credit, and not taking Sakurai's words seriously enough here. He didn't simply "consider it". Your definition implies he barely cared to begin with. Despite knowing he definitely wants the character in. And that's the problem. The only one who could've stopped him from putting Geno in during Brawl realistically is SE right now. There's quite literally no reason to believe Sakurai dismissed the character. He has actually explained every consideration that was dismissed, yet never said once he dismissed Geno. That changes the situation entirely.

The only point you're actually correct about is we don't have evidence he outright went to SE. I agree with that. But we also have a decent reason to believe that to be possible. He has gone to companies for 3rd party character usage, whether turned done in some way or not. He went to Sega for Sonic, after all. Let's review the other possibilities and why they're significantly less likely than him going to SE;

-Budget: We got no clue what the actual budget is. This means there's no way to use it as evidence.
-Nintendo: They weren't involved in any known way with 3rd party characters. I'm sure they technically were with the negotiations, but nothing suggests they specifically could be why. Their only blatant involvement was with Corrin in 4(possibly with Bayonetta as well, but that's only because we have reason to believe Bayo wasn't in due to the ballot. They have been pushing her heavily, so there's some evidence that they might be the reason. It has some logic behind it. We definitely don't know the details behind why she was included, though. We just know she scored high on the ballot). But we don't know their involvement in Brawl, which means they can't realistically be used as evidence.
-Sakurai: He also says when he dismisses a character. He never once said he dismissed Geno. This makes it severely unlikely to be why. He just said it couldn't happen. This puts it far more the case there was another factor at work. So the idea he dismissed him has no basis in reality at this point. It's not good evidence to use.
-Square-Enix: Then we have the most likely explanation. They're stingy as hell. Now, part of it could be due to having certain pieces of a franchise/work tied to the employees who created it, as is the case of the FF Music, however, we don't actually know which things apply for that. Could it be that the SMRPG models were done by a specific person, and they didn't want to do it? Possibly. SE might've not wanted to have their first character be someone they can't somewhat promote. Even Cloud had current game appearances and FFVIIr going for him, which does matter. A recent or active character can be easier to get, as companies want them shown off more. The only factor it has is this is still conjecture, as again, we don't know for sure he went to them. It is possible he wanted the character but didn't think he was possible due to SE being stingy. Though that technically would still be fall under the fault of SE due to their poor attitude is being worked with(not to say their reasons for being stingy are bad. Companies underpay their employees often. SE actually does the opposite).

So when I say SE is the most likely reason, it's because there's at least strong reasoning behind it and has some remote evidence. Do you have any other actual possible reasons Geno couldn't have gotten in besides these 4? I could've missed one possibility, but they all are still logical(even if only one has some remote evidence. Correlation can be more evidentual than nothing at all, after all). I won't go into the whole consideration definition. Fair enough. Though you are clearly ignoring the context of why Geno is well beyond any other case and should be looked at as a very different scenario(which is actually the case here).
 

GoodGrief741

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There is a reason to believe he would've asked SE for Geno and they said no.
No there isn't though. There's not a strong enough link between 'he wants Geno' and 'he actively approached Square Enix asking for his inclusion and was refused'.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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No there isn't though. There's not a strong enough link between 'he wants Geno' and 'he actively approached Square Enix asking for his inclusion and was refused'.
There doesn't need to be a link. Because you're making it sound like it's impossible, when it's highly possible, and so far the only explanation with merit.

If you had actually replied to my point being made, and not cherrypicked a small bit of the message, you'd have seen that. Try actually replying properly. Cause really, you actually think that holds any merit when your explanation is "I don't know" at best? That's not an explanation that holds any merit. Of course we don't know. That doesn't make the factor of SE any less likely. It just means it's not confirmed. It doesn't have to be confirmed to be the most likely, which considering the lack of any other better explanation right now, keeps it where it is; "the most likely explanation, though it is possible for another reason". When Sakurai actually explains what happened in Brawl, and says he didn't even approach SE, other explanations will be taken more seriously. But it's hard to take stuff seriously that doesn't hold any water, whereas him approaching and failing to get a character(he failed to get Sonic the first time, after all. Sega eventually called back and said yes. In this case, it shows there's evidence he definitely has talked to and failed to get characters right away. It's still somewhat conjecture, but it shows that it's highly possible it happened). Where's the actual evidence he dismissed the character idea in any way? He's never spoken actual ill of Geno, unlike, say, Heihachi. Where's the evidence of what the budget is(no details on it). Where's the evidence that Nintendo could be why(again, we have nothing of their involvement known outside of Smash 4 and Ultimate in some way. Obviously they would be involved in negotiation for a character, but we have nothing to show that they could be a remote reason for SE saying no Or that they said no. We don't have showings of their failings at all to get that idea).

So we have evidence of a company saying no. We have evidence that SE can and will say no to ideas as is. We know they are hard to work with. We have no evidence of Nintendo being an issue. We have no evidence of Sakurai dismissing him in any way. We have no evidence of a budget issue(though I will admit it's the only example I brought up as a possibility, and it is a legitimate one, which could easily apply to Smash 4 DLC, which explains the lack of actual FF content due to costing too much. But the fact we got effectively the same content amount in Ultimate shows the budget is too low or SE is still very stingy). The budget however is very hard to use as evidence during Brawl as we barely saw two characters, with quite a few trophies, stickers, and music. That means the budget was evidentally not a known issue that we can remotely tell.

So while there's no straight link, there's some actual evidence that points towards it being the reason. Including the fact Sakurai has been turned down before and that SE is stingy. There's a serious lack of any evidence for another explanation among the ones given. If you have other possible explanations(which you aren't giving for some reason. I'm not sure why you cherrypicked my message instead of looking at each point made. Because right now your reply is very lacking and ignoring a ton of context being said of why it's still more likely than the other current ones), do tell. Otherwise you're trying to prove something as impossible yet not providing another possible explanation that has stronger merits than SE saying no. Right now it still has more evidence, and the "link" isn't the key evidence. For that matter, people aren't asking for evidence right now of SE saying no. They consider it the most likely explanation because the other explanations are far less likely. So having a link won't matter unless a better explanation comes along. We can all say "correlation isn't causation", but that doesn't much matter if you can't find something better to think of. If there's another explanation, either Sakurai will say it or a better and more realistic theory will be said. So again, since you're trying to push it as impossible, what's your better explanation? I've already gone over why certain explanations hold no real merit right now. Got something that isn't covered?

Basically, put your money where your mouth is. Prove that something else is remotely possible. If people are dismissing other ideas, there's a good reason for it. Nobody is saying remotely this is the only guaranteed explanation. If you think that, then you need to really read our messages better. People are however saying it's the most believable explanation right now. Of course others are possible, but it doesn't mean they have enough merits to be taken seriously. You shouldn't be dismissing a potential explanation if you're not willing to actually explain why it's impossible. I agree that we shouldn't outright believe it entirely, but there's little reason to believe in another possibility, as the other possibilities are severely lacking.

Last thing I'll say is that when you make a claim, you should be willing to outright back it up. If not, don't expect people to take it seriously. For the record, I did read and reply(though not quote you) about the claim of "he only cares about icons", but that holds little merit. Bayonetta has clearly proven that. He was never forced to put a character on, as he still chose Corrin in the end after being convinced, and that was directly Nintendo's overall suggestion. He also explained for Ultimate's DLC(especially the fighter's pass) that he still makes the final decision in the end. Now, I'm not sure if you were trying to say this, but that Sakurai at the time of Brawl only wanted third party icons in, then yes, I can fully believe that. He did say that among his "rules" at the time. If that's what you meant, anyway. That said, I hope you see the last bit.
 
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Ovaltine

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Clearly, the answer is that Geno isn't in Smash because he drank all of Tetsuya Nomura's Pepsi and called him something foul.
 
D

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Clearly, the answer is that Geno isn't in Smash because he drank all of Tetsuya Nomura's Pepsi and called him something foul.
Thank you for reminding me of the cursed Callie plush that drinks all the Pepsi and calls you a b****
 

GoodGrief741

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There doesn't need to be a link. Because you're making it sound like it's impossible, when it's highly possible, and so far the only explanation with merit.

If you had actually replied to my point being made, and not cherrypicked a small bit of the message, you'd have seen that. Try actually replying properly. Cause really, you actually think that holds any merit when your explanation is "I don't know" at best? That's not an explanation that holds any merit. Of course we don't know. That doesn't make the factor of SE any less likely. It just means it's not confirmed. It doesn't have to be confirmed to be the most likely, which considering the lack of any other better explanation right now, keeps it where it is; "the most likely explanation, though it is possible for another reason". When Sakurai actually explains what happened in Brawl, and says he didn't even approach SE, other explanations will be taken more seriously. But it's hard to take stuff seriously that doesn't hold any water, whereas him approaching and failing to get a character(he failed to get Sonic the first time, after all. Sega eventually called back and said yes. In this case, it shows there's evidence he definitely has talked to and failed to get characters right away. It's still somewhat conjecture, but it shows that it's highly possible it happened). Where's the actual evidence he dismissed the character idea in any way? He's never spoken actual ill of Geno, unlike, say, Heihachi. Where's the evidence of what the budget is(no details on it). Where's the evidence that Nintendo could be why(again, we have nothing of their involvement known outside of Smash 4 and Ultimate in some way. Obviously they would be involved in negotiation for a character, but we have nothing to show that they could be a remote reason for SE saying no Or that they said no. We don't have showings of their failings at all to get that idea).

So we have evidence of a company saying no. We have evidence that SE can and will say no to ideas as is. We know they are hard to work with. We have no evidence of Nintendo being an issue. We have no evidence of Sakurai dismissing him in any way. We have no evidence of a budget issue(though I will admit it's the only example I brought up as a possibility, and it is a legitimate one, which could easily apply to Smash 4 DLC, which explains the lack of actual FF content due to costing too much. But the fact we got effectively the same content amount in Ultimate shows the budget is too low or SE is still very stingy). The budget however is very hard to use as evidence during Brawl as we barely saw two characters, with quite a few trophies, stickers, and music. That means the budget was evidentally not a known issue that we can remotely tell.

So while there's no straight link, there's some actual evidence that points towards it being the reason. Including the fact Sakurai has been turned down before and that SE is stingy. There's a serious lack of any evidence for another explanation among the ones given. If you have other possible explanations(which you aren't giving for some reason. I'm not sure why you cherrypicked my message instead of looking at each point made. Because right now your reply is very lacking and ignoring a ton of context being said of why it's still more likely than the other current ones), do tell. Otherwise you're trying to prove something as impossible yet not providing another possible explanation that has stronger merits than SE saying no. Right now it still has more evidence, and the "link" isn't the key evidence. For that matter, people aren't asking for evidence right now of SE saying no. They consider it the most likely explanation because the other explanations are far less likely. So having a link won't matter unless a better explanation comes along. We can all say "correlation isn't causation", but that doesn't much matter if you can't find something better to think of. If there's another explanation, either Sakurai or say it or a better and more realistic theory will be said. So again, since you're trying to push it as impossible, what's your better explanation? I've already gone over why certain explanations hold no real merit right now. Got something that isn't covered?
I'm not making it sound impossible. But it's not the only explanation with merit either. It's just an equally likely possibility among many others.

Your entire logic is fallacious as well. Your points are 'we know at one point a company (temporarily) refused Sakurai a character, so it's likely to happen again' and 'we know Square Enix has a history of being stingy, so it's likely to happen again', both of which are fallacies, inferences trying to pose as deductions.

More importantly, the point 'you have no evidence against my argument, therefore it is true' is an argumentum ad ignorantiam. Just because there is no evidence for arguments contrary to yours doesn't make them any less likely. Additionally, the lack of evidence pointing towards alternative theories doesn't mean they are valid. You are commiting what is called an argument from self-knowing (If P were true then I would know it; in fact I do not know it; therefore P cannot be true.) The lack of evidence does not make a theory less valid, it just means there is no evidence for or against it.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I'm not making it sound impossible. But it's not the only explanation with merit either. It's just an equally likely possibility among many others.
What other explanations with merit? You only said one possible one at best, which I edited in(I'll repeat though); the idea that Sakurai only wanted icons at the time of Brawl. If this is what you meant, I can believe that. I wouldn't say it has actual more merit, since Sakurai still outright said "he wanted him since Brawl", showing he clearly doesn't care as much about the iconic factor as people think. It's possible it made he re-evaluate to put him in that game or not. Is that what you meant?

Actually talk about them, though. I already brought them up and shown why none of those make a lot of sense. Not counting the one I just pointed out, which is what I think you meant earlier when you talked about wanting gaming icons. If that's wrong, please correct me.

Otherwise, put your money where your mouth is, man. Don't make a claim but refuse to back it up. I've already asked you once to actually explain the other possibilities so I know what you mean. Cause right now you're giving absolutely zero things to back up your point. I have to literally guess at one of your previous points(which if I get wrong, I vastly apologize, as I didn't actually quote it), and I might even have that wrong. Saying other explanations exist is meaningless. Saying what they are actually makes some kind of point. You don't want to believe a likely explanation... just because? Cause that's honestly all you're saying right now. And I'm not even asking you to believe it. You literally came off as saying it was pretty much impossible, and to ignore it. Obviously this isn't really your intention, and I apologize for misunderstanding you. So you could please explain your point more? Instead of one-liners that amount to nothing but pointless dismissal?
 

EricTheGamerman

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You're still ignoring the fact that he's not in the same situation as many others, and that's a huge deal. He wants him in. He doesn't want many other characters that are considered in. Thus, it's not the same situation no matter what. There's a huge difference between Geno's situation, and ones like Heihachi.

There's absolutely no reason to believe he would've tried to get Heihachi in the game during 4, as he was outright dismissed rather quickly as he couldn't be translated. There is a reason to believe he would've asked SE for Geno and they said no. That's actually remotely possible because the situations are completely different.

You're giving SE too much credit, and not taking Sakurai's words seriously enough here. He didn't simply "consider it". Your definition implies he barely cared to begin with. Despite knowing he definitely wants the character in. And that's the problem. The only one who could've stopped him from putting Geno in during Brawl realistically is SE right now. There's quite literally no reason to believe Sakurai dismissed the character. He has actually explained every consideration that was dismissed, yet never said once he dismissed Geno. That changes the situation entirely.

The only point you're actually correct about is we don't have evidence he outright went to SE. I agree with that. But we also have a decent reason to believe that to be possible. He has gone to companies for 3rd party character usage, whether turned done in some way or not. He went to Sega for Sonic, after all. Let's review the other possibilities and why they're significantly less likely than him going to SE;

-Budget: We got no clue what the actual budget is. This means there's no way to use it as evidence.
-Nintendo: They weren't involved in any known way with 3rd party characters. I'm sure they technically were with the negotiations, but nothing suggests they specifically could be why. Their only blatant involvement was with Corrin in 4(possibly with Bayonetta as well, but that's only because we have reason to believe Bayo wasn't in due to the ballot. They have been pushing her heavily, so there's some evidence that they might be the reason. It has some logic behind it. We definitely don't know the details behind why she was included, though. We just know she scored high on the ballot). But we don't know their involvement in Brawl, which means they can't realistically be used as evidence.
-Sakurai: He also says when he dismisses a character. He never once said he dismissed Geno. This makes it severely unlikely to be why. He just said it couldn't happen. This puts it far more the case there was another factor at work. So the idea he dismissed him has no basis in reality at this point. It's not good evidence to use.
-Square-Enix: Then we have the most likely explanation. They're stingy as hell. Now, part of it could be due to having certain pieces of a franchise/work tied to the employees who created it, as is the case of the FF Music, however, we don't actually know which things apply for that. Could it be that the SMRPG models were done by a specific person, and they didn't want to do it? Possibly. SE might've not wanted to have their first character be someone they can't somewhat promote. Even Cloud had current game appearances and FFVIIr going for him, which does matter. A recent or active character can be easier to get, as companies want them shown off more. The only factor it has is this is still conjecture, as again, we don't know for sure he went to them. It is possible he wanted the character but didn't think he was possible due to SE being stingy. Though that technically would still be fall under the fault of SE due to their poor attitude is being worked with(not to say their reasons for being stingy are bad. Companies underpay their employees often. SE actually does the opposite).

So when I say SE is the most likely reason, it's because there's at least strong reasoning behind it and has some remote evidence. Do you have any other actual possible reasons Geno couldn't have gotten in besides these 4? I could've missed one possibility, but they all are still logical(even if only one has some remote evidence. Correlation can be more evidentual than nothing at all, after all). I won't go into the whole consideration definition. Fair enough. Though you are clearly ignoring the context of why Geno is well beyond any other case and should be looked at as a very different scenario(which is actually the case here).
I'm not downplaying the fact that Geno is in a different situation. I make note of it all the same, I just say there's zero evidence to indicate Geno ever went beyond a twinkle in Sakurai's eye sort of thing. And there's not. Choosing to make any further statement depends on your willingness to extrapolate beyond his original comment. Wanting something does not inherently imply actions were taken to achieve fulfillment of that desire. It's a different situation in terms of how we should judge his chances moving forward, but again it does not implicitly demonstrate action behind desire. That's been the basis for all of my posting on this subject. We don't know details, and anything you take away is personal interpretation of a two short, vague statements regarding Geno that only definitively establish interest.

Failing at a different point in "consideration" by my definition of the concept wouldn't be all that different from Heihachi. Yes, Geno made it past the initial point of "Can I conceptualize a moveset for this character" and to the point where "Sakurai says, I'm interested in including this character in the game and would like to potentially include him" that Heihachi clearly failed. That's not insignificant and again, as I've stated, that's important to our community and does make him stand out further in the field of Smash candidates. And yes, that may be unique to characters regarding Smash. I'll readily admit all of that is correct, but you're just extrapolating entirely too far with his very limited comments.

You're acting like there's no middle ground between a desire and actualizing that desire, when in fact there are many instances in which your desires may not be the most practical or appropriate decision for the process. I've actually had this play out in my life recently with regards to my senior thesis. There were a great many things and contexts I would have loved and actively wanted to comment upon with my subject (Russian Literature), but because my scope is inherently limited by the nature of such a project and I was more interested in certain areas of study than others, I abandoned those additional desires. I wanted to include more, but it wasn't the best for my project.

I think it's entirely possible Geno, and potentially many more characters, may have shared this fate. Monetary budget doesn't matter as much as the time given in the project plan and their are practical limitations to every project and things have to be finished at one point. You have to make priorities at multiple points. Especially with a project like Smash where there are far more eyes on the project and investors involved. It's possible that the personal want of Geno just wasn't the priority compared to newcomers such as Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Wario, etc. Brawl was an even more difficult time for characters to get into Smash, let alone a third party with such limited appearances as Geno. The monetary budget we don't know, but we do know time and we do know that content with Brawl got left on the cutting room floor as well as the balance issues the game launched with.

You say, "There's quite literally no reason to believe Sakurai dismissed the character. He has actually explained every consideration that was dismissed, yet never said once he dismissed Geno." There's no evidence to what Sakurai decided on the character outside of the fact he wasn't in Brawl and hasn't appeared in subsequent games yet. There's no evidence to any conclusion. He decided to highlight a handful of past considerations, that does not mean that he will explain everyone or treat every character the same in his columns regarding them. There could be reasons for not discussing the specifics of Geno not making it into Brawl that we don't know. We're not entitled to every idea that goes behind Sakurai's informed decision making process. He has volunteered information in several instances before, but it would be foolish to believe that he's going to do that for every character or that a lack of statement on the matter indicates a more specific interpretation. I'm sure there are tons of background things we don't know, he's just decided to personally inform us on several in the past. He's communicative as a developer, absolutely. But that just means when he doesn't communicate something directly that you have to be all the more careful about how you interpret his words.

I agree with you on the four primary categories where Geno could have ran into issues: project production, Nintendo, Sakurai himself, or Square Enix. But that encompasses basically everything that goes in to Smash, so you can't really downplay any of them as they are categories to any one of more specific reasons Geno may not have made it in. I've tried to outline those possibilities in prior posts.

And to be clear, I completely agree that it's possible Square Enix was the problem, that they may have downright turned down Geno. I won't ever deny that, but I am going to be entirely resistant to making any conclusions when we have such limited information regarding Geno at our hands. And I don't believe there's enough to really extrapolate so far as to conclude that Square rejected Sakurai's proposal of Geno at any point. All of our additional evidence shows the company as willing to license Geno. Yes, that's a different scenario than making him playable, but the fact that's he in Smash in any form would indicate to me a willingness to work with Sakurai in regards to the character. There's just lots of possibilities and places for things to go wrong.
 

GoodGrief741

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What other explanations with merit? You only said one possible one at best, which I edited in(I'll repeat though); the idea that Sakurai only wanted icons at the time of Brawl. If this is what you meant, I can believe that. I wouldn't say it has actual more merit, since Sakurai still outright said "he wanted him since Brawl", showing he clearly doesn't care as much about the iconic factor as people think. It's possible it made he re-evaluate to put him in that game or not. Is that what you meant?

Actually talk about them, though. I already brought them up and shown why none of those make a lot of sense. Not counting the one I just pointed out, which is what I think you meant earlier when you talked about wanting gaming icons. If that's wrong, please correct me.

Otherwise, put your money where your mouth is, man. Don't make a claim but refuse to back it up. I've already asked you once to actually explain the other possibilities so I know what you mean. Cause right now you're giving absolutely zero things to back up your point. I have to literally guess at one of your previous points(which if I get wrong, I vastly apologize, as I didn't actually quote it), and I might even have that wrong. Saying other explanations exist is meaningless. Saying what they are actually makes some kind of point. You don't want to believe a likely explanation... just because? Cause that's honestly all you're saying right now. And I'm not even asking you to believe it. You literally came off as saying it was pretty much impossible, and to ignore it. Obviously this isn't really your intention, and I apologize for misunderstanding you. So you could please explain your point more? Instead of one-liners that amount to nothing but pointless dismissal?
I'm not attempting to propose any explanation. I just don't necessarily believe the idea that Square Enix refused Geno because I see no actual evidence supporting it, only coulds and woulds.
 

GillyGrime

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I don't think Geno will make the fighter pass based on spirit board alone (with Mallow already in the base game), though I'd be thrilled to be wrong as I love the character designs in Mario RPG.

I'm also trying to think, if Geno came with 11 music tracks like Joker, what they would be. Forest Maze is a given as are the battle themes, but after that I'm not sure.

This mystery Square slot is so suspenseful, it'll be so anti-climatic if we don't even end up with one.
 

Ovaltine

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I don't think Geno will make the fighter pass based on spirit board alone (with Mallow already in the base game), though I'd be thrilled to be wrong as I love the character designs in Mario RPG.
How would that be a problem, though? If anything, it could either give us another way to obtain the Mallow spirit via the board, or Mallow could just... be omitted from there. SMRPG has a lot of characters that would make for good spirits. Just on a set of eleven spirits, I can think of Smithy, Exor, Punchinello, the Axem Rangers, Jonathan Jones, Yaridovich, Booster, Valentina and Dodo, Megasmilax, King and Queen Nimbus, and Croco. There are so many more options, too.

That said, I do earnestly think it lessens Geno's chances, mostly because I feel series with spirits at all won't be in the Fighter's Pass.
 
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For spirit board, Geno could definitely bring more characters as spirits -
1. Mack
2. Bowyer
3. Yaridovich
4. The Axem Rangers
5. Punchinello
6. Smithy
7. Exor
8. Jonathan Jones
9. Jinx
10. Frogfucious

And this is just to name a few. There are plenty of other potential characters as spirits for Geno.

For music tracks -
1. Forest Maze
2. Battle Against an Armed Boss
3. Battle Against a Somewhat Stronger Monster
4. Battle Against Smithy
5. Geno's Awakening
6. Goodbye Geno
7. Star Hill
8. Rose Town (since Geno was introduced here)
9. Battle Against Monsters
10. And My Name's Booster
11. Sunken Ship
 

GillyGrime

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How would that be a problem, though? If anything, it could either give us another way to obtain the Mallow spirit via the board, or Mallow could just... be omitted from there. SMRPG has a lot of characters that would make for good spirits. Just on a set of eleven spirits, I can think of Smithy, Exor, Punchinello, the Axem Rangers, Jonathan Jones, Yaridovich, Booster, Valentina and Dodo, Megasmilax, King and Queen Nimbus, and Croco. There are so many more options, too.

That said, I do earnestly think it lessens Geno's chances, mostly because I feel series with spirits at all won't be in the Fighter's Pass.
I don't think it's a problem, but like you said I think it lessens his chances. I could easily choose Mario RPG characters I like, trust haha.

I think it bodes better for a character like Rayman who only has himself a spirit, and not say Globox or Barbra.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I'm not attempting to propose any explanation. I just don't necessarily believe the idea that Square Enix refused Geno because I see no actual evidence supporting it, only coulds and woulds.
Not anymore. You definitely provided one earlier. I don't know if you stopped using it because of what I said about Bayonetta or whatever. Am I wrong on what point you made was earlier? If so, please correct me. I don't need to repeat it again, cause you know what explanation I mean. Did I misinterpret it?

Either way, if you don't want to continue, that's fair. I only put you on the spotlight because you did try to make a rather important claim in the debate but did nothing with it. This is expected of a normal debate. Thus, if you make a point, expect people to want you to elaborate. From what I can tell, you don't have an actual point to make(and I mean that with complete respect) beyond "I don't think this is believable enough." And that's a-okay.
 
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