Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[MisterMike]

This is certainly the weirdest way I've ever seen a game announced. SEGA is just ok with him and Brian saying all this stuff?

That's the thing about NDAs. If you're under an NDA and one of the stipulations is that you can't mention bananas, then you could still say other words that would imply you're talking about bananas. You could say phrases like "a yellow fruit" and not break NDA even if the person you're clearly talking to knows you're referring to bananas. In this instance, Brian talked about being hired by SEGA to work on a new project, and even shared general phrases that he said during his recording sessions, but he never directly stated the name of the game at all. He mentioned Super Monkey Ball, but he never said that it was the game's name.

Now granted I'm not a lawyer or a legal expert of any kind, but from what I understand of it it's all about the word of the law rather than the spirit that matters.

 

[Lagguino]

Off topic but uhh... anyone like Super Monkey Ball?

Hmmmmm new game but also ball which can also be a sign of a smash ball so AIAI IS IN SMASH

(Please don't take what i said seriously)

 

[EditorMax]

galaxy brain concept-
the arms fighters aren't a hero situation- they're echo fighters. Sakurai confirms there can be multiple characters per pack.

leading into a waluigi/geno trailer

(please)

 

[Loliko YnT]

Nintendo already said "this is the design we're going with" when talking about Color Splash. The classic Paper Mario formula was already gone. People should've accepted that ages ago. When it was outright said. It was going to be unique and focus more on mechanics than experience itself. FP and Badges were pretty much dropped by Super Paper Mario, but there was always a loose form of experience and consumables anyway. You can get PP back as quickly as you can Stickers. I'm not saying this is a good route. Though I think the Badges weren't well-designed to begin with(a fun idea, but I felt they handled the Pixls way better).

I'm sorry , but I disagree.

The badges were handeld very well in Paper Mario 64. One major thing to know about this game is that it has a level cap , compared to TTYD. So you can only get a max of 30 badges points , and a lot of the more powerful badges like Power + end up costing 20% of your badge points.

Paper Mario 64 Badge Tier List

I will probably put more thought into this later but these were my 4 AM ideas pic.twitter.com/PoNhQDXVBX

— Stryder7x (@Stryder7x) October 14, 2019

Of course , you're always going to have badges that are better than others. A perfect balance is impossible. The only badge I ever found to be on the more OP side will be the infinite jump one , because you always get it very early on , and it doesn't cost that much. However , they also balance it against bosses by giving a cap of maximum jumps , so you can't just cheese your way through.
You of course have the boosting strategies , by pairing up jump boost and the infinite jump badges , you could do a loooot of damage. But honestly , if you managed to boost 3 turns in a row without attacking , I think you deserve the extra damage.

There is also the fact that in PM 64 , Partners don't have HPs , so you can't let your partners constantly tank everything.

However , I get where you're coming from if you're talking about TTYD.
This game , imo , has the shroom badge syndrom from Superstar saga. By default , the game isn't too hard , but specific badges combinaisons can completely ruin the difficulty of the game , especially for the post game content.

The biggest example of that are the danger/peril Mario strats. A badge can boost your attack whenever Mario is at 5 HPs or less , or 2 HPs or less. The main issue is that you can farm them at the casino , and one of the NPCs of Rogueport can make it so you're permanently at 5 HPs. On top of that , you also have badges that increase evasion at low HPs... Yeah , you get where I'm getting at. This strategy make the 100 pits trial a joke , unless you get royally RNG screwed.

And the worst part is that TTYD doesn't have a level cap , so you could pretty much invest everything in BPs and FPs , and ignore HPs for the most part ; Not counting the fact that Partners can tank for you , and that you can increase their HPs by upgrading their rank.

---

However... I feel like it doesn't make the badges badly designed or flawed by default. The strategy I mentionned is something very specific that need grinding , and isn't something the common player is going to do.
I think that the vast majority of badges are balanced , and even the OP ones have drawbacks.

I'll agree on the fact that in TTYD , you're really encouraged to focus heavily on FPs and BPs starting at mid game. Early game , after one or two HPs level up , you're good , you could defeat most of the bosses. But after that , you probably got a lot of badges , and most ennemies won't go down with basic attacks , so investing in those two stats become very tempting.
But in the end... It's less that the badges are overpowered , and more that IS didn't give us a proper level cap to balance it. TTYD is the worst when it come to grinding , because getting a level up in that game is a way bigger deal than a level up in a Mario and Luigi game or SMRPG. BPs and FPs change your strategy a lot , and you can quickly get overpowered. You can also farm thanks to these lovely flowers , so it doesn't help :

So in the end , it's less a problem of core game design when it come to badges , and more a problem of level capping. At worst , a few select badges are too powerful for how little they cost , but this is something that can be tweaked.

 

[GillyGrime]

Off topic but uhh... anyone like Super Monkey Ball?

If this month we get a new classic Super Monkey Ball and Geno revival, I might just go out and buy a lottery ticket.

 

[Polarthief]

If this month we get a new classic Super Monkey Ball and Geno revival, I might just go out and buy a lottery ticket.

Inb4 Aiai in Smash Bros as well.

 

[Enigma735]

Ngl, I would love to see Aiai in Smash

 

[MattX20]

No matter what happens in the next few days if we finally get the Smash reveal(s) we're hoping to see, it was an honor and a privilege to be on the Geno thread these past few years

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm sorry , but I disagree.

The badges were handeld very well in Paper Mario 64. One major thing to know about this game is that it has a level cap , compared to TTYD. So you can only get a max of 30 badges points , and a lot of the more powerful badges like Power + end up costing 20% of your badge points.

Paper Mario 64 Badge Tier List

I will probably put more thought into this later but these were my 4 AM ideas pic.twitter.com/PoNhQDXVBX

— Stryder7x (@Stryder7x) October 14, 2019

Of course , you're always going to have badges that are better than others. A perfect balance is impossible. The only badge I ever found to be on the more OP side will be the infinite jump one , because you always get it very early on , and it doesn't cost that much. However , they also balance it against bosses by giving a cap of maximum jumps , so you can't just cheese your way through.
You of course have the boosting strategies , by pairing up jump boost and the infinite jump badges , you could do a loooot of damage. But honestly , if you managed to boost 3 turns in a row without attacking , I think you deserve the extra damage.

There is also the fact that in PM 64 , Partners don't have HPs , so you can't let your partners constantly tank everything.

However , I get where you're coming from if you're talking about TTYD.
This game , imo , has the shroom badge syndrom from Superstar saga. By default , the game isn't too hard , but specific badges combinaisons can completely ruin the difficulty of the game , especially for the post game content.

The biggest example of that are the danger/peril Mario strats. A badge can boost your attack whenever Mario is at 5 HPs or less , or 2 HPs or less. The main issue is that you can farm them at the casino , and one of the NPCs of Rogueport can make it so you're permanently at 5 HPs. On top of that , you also have badges that increase evasion at low HPs... Yeah , you get where I'm getting at. This strategy make the 100 pits trial a joke , unless you get royally RNG screwed.

And the worst part is that TTYD doesn't have a level cap , so you could pretty much invest everything in BPs and FPs , and ignore HPs for the most part ; Not counting the fact that Partners can tank for you , and that you can increase their HPs by upgrading their rank.

---

However... I feel like it doesn't make the badges badly designed or flawed by default. The strategy I mentionned is something very specific that need grinding , and isn't something the common player is going to do.
I think that the vast majority of badges are balanced , and even the OP ones have drawbacks.

I'll agree on the fact that in TTYD , you're really encouraged to focus heavily on FPs and BPs starting at mid game. Early game , after one or two HPs level up , you're good , you could defeat most of the bosses. But after that , you probably got a lot of badges , and most ennemies won't go down with basic attacks , so investing in those two stats become very tempting.
But in the end... It's less that the badges are overpowered , and more that IS didn't give us a proper level cap to balance it. TTYD is the worst when it come to grinding , because getting a level up in that game is a way bigger deal than a level up in a Mario and Luigi game or SMRPG. BPs and FPs change your strategy a lot , and you can quickly get overpowered. You can also farm thanks to these lovely flowers , so it doesn't help :
View attachment 274656
So in the end , it's less a problem of core game design when it come to badges , and more a problem of level capping. At worst , a few select badges are too powerful for how little they cost , but this is something that can be tweaked.

When you can make yourself "hard invincible with a near !% chance of being hit" while doing massive damage and can kill most enemies, even late game ones, with one turn? That's broken. Paper Mario 64 was doing it fine, but stacking badges like that was not "good design". It was an outright broken thing. That is a core design problem. Badges got too powerful due to how they were made. A few being stackable like HP alone isn't that bad. As long as they had a massive cost to try and balance it out, but they went too far in TTYD as the system forgot that was what kept them in check. That is an inherent problem with the system. And you can't just have a super limited amount of stats without building the entire game around it. Even SPM did this a bit better, as your max stats actually do scale reasonably along the enemies(even though they become a but unfair during the Dark 100 Trials, even as a challenge mode, they should've been a bit more toned down). TTYD is neat as an idea to have more than one loadout, but there was no reason not to get BP to max and throw nearly everything into Danger and Peril options. Why wouldn't you use it? It's literally the best loadout to the point of absurdity.

The equipment being limited as a build was great in 64 because you could still have a good backup option while not being overly ridiculous. You could cheese a few enemies, sure, like Zap Tap against Fuzzies. This isn't the same thing as being able to easy turn kill almost everything(and bosses weren't even a challenge with those setups).

I like being overpowered sometimes, but that doesn't make it good design either. Paper Mario 64 had it right by making things challenging, even Bowser, at full power. TTYD went too far. They never hit a good balance after PM64 either. There's bosses that are nothing but damage sponges and needing a specific item is terrible. Super had the same issue with the Dark version of the 100 Floors. The enemies got too damn tough and you didn't have enough items to replenish health(seriously, tiny inventories are horrible if you're going to put a giant set of battles one after another. That's not good game design. If you had FP in that game to replenish health, sure. But you don't).

With game mechanics, if you can easily break it with no sweat? There is a problem with that mechanic. Badges were a broken mechanic. It's not just the fault of a specific badge. It's the fact they failed to attempt a balance in TTYD. You have 99 Badge Points max(this is easy to get to) with more than enough coins. You can grind it out easily and then watch as you dominate the game. It's not some secret move, it's an outright game breaker. This is due to the fact that there was no limitation to how many of each badge, except by the hard number you own(this is why limiting those is a necessity for balance) and the fact you didn't have a decent limitation on BP. I'd even argue Paper Mario 64 could use a few more BP too, but 30 was pretty fair. Only Bowser among the normal bosses could give you trouble, and the few bonus bosses were a good challenge too, but none of these you could hard cheese, so it never got broken. A mechanic can obviously be broken and fun, but badges in TTYD were not designed to be balanced. They were designed to allow for broken loadouts(or they didn't really pay attention to how easily you could break the game. It's probably the former, though, since it wasn't hard to figure out for anyone. It's not exactly a secret technique, but the only optimal build).

"Charging a few turns to deal massive damage" is not the same thing as attacking and dealing massive damage in one turn that almost nothing can survive. That has a balance in itself, but seeing as how you're almost impossible to hit, that combined with Danger Mario also becomes a game breaker. The way you can combine badges is a problem in itself. Them removing them but giving similar abilities in SPM actually did a pretty good job of balancing the concept, with less massively broken options. The only real missing thing at that point was Zap Tap, but everything else was there. They could've easily fixed it by limiting certain options. Having small boosts for low HP isn't bad, if you can't massively stack them. They could've highered the costs massively so 99 BP was meaningless. Those stuff should've been at least 8-10 BP each if not more, to try and lower its damage potential enough where you have a high risk high reward. But it's almost no risk high reward in TTYD. That's not a good balance. And that's due to the mechanic as a whole not trying to be balanced. TTYD has a broken badge system. PM64 simply didn't. Just blaming the Badges doesn't change why it works that way. It's an issue with the mechanic as a whole not having it being a single piece of equipment too, which allowed for these kind of ridiculous loadout(or even a decent limitation, though I forget the max number of HP/FP ups in PM 64, but that's about where you want to go with. Even 5 of each puts you in a risky position for the Danger Mario setup).

 

[YsDisciple]

Not gonna lie, Aiai would be one heck of a unique fighter is he were to join Smash. Question is though, would he play inside the ball, or outside the ball?

 

[Polarthief]

When you can make yourself "hard invincible with a near !% chance of being hit" while doing massive damage and can kill most enemies, even late game ones, with one turn? That's broken. Paper Mario 64 was doing it fine, but stacking badges like that was not "good design". It was an outright broken thing. That is a core design problem. Badges got too powerful due to how they were made. A few being stackable like HP alone isn't that bad. As long as they had a massive cost to try and balance it out, but they went too far in TTYD as the system forgot that was what kept them in check. That is an inherent problem with the system. And you can't just have a super limited amount of stats without building the entire game around it. Even SPM did this a bit better, as your max stats actually do scale reasonably along the enemies(even though they become a but unfair during the Dark 100 Trials, even as a challenge mode, they should've been a bit more toned down). TTYD is neat as an idea to have more than one loadout, but there was no reason not to get BP to max and throw nearly everything into Danger and Peril options. Why wouldn't you use it? It's literally the best loadout to the point of absurdity.

So what I'm hearing is it was still a good system, just that the devs didn't realize Danger Mario and the 1BP badges would get out of control. If the BP system returned today, it wouldn't look anything like that, or it would to give you options since Nintendo loves having easymodes in games and anyone having a hard time beating it can just google "good/broken Paper Mario 3 badge builds". I mean ffs, Golden Tanuki Suit says hi. Remember that? Nintendo doesn't care if you have access to absolutely broken things.

TL;DR: It was a good system that just needed some tweaking.

No matter what happens in the next few days if we finally get the Smash reveal(s) we're hoping to see, it was an honor and a privilege to be on the Geno thread these past few years

For me it's been under a year, but yes, 100% this.

Not gonna lie, Aiai would be one heck of a unique fighter is he were to join Smash. Question is though, would he play inside the ball, or outside the ball?

Yes.

 

[Rohanx17]

Not gonna lie, Aiai would be one heck of a unique fighter is he were to join Smash. Question is though, would he play inside the ball, or outside the ball?

Likely inside the ball, there's a bunch of stuff they could draw from the old side modes like boxing glove and the glider mode to make it work.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So what I'm hearing is it was still a good system, just that the devs didn't realize Danger Mario and the 1BP badges would get out of control. If the BP system returned today, it wouldn't look anything like that, or it would to give you options since Nintendo loves having easymodes in games and anyone having a hard time beating it can just google "good/broken Paper Mario 3 badge builds". I mean ffs, Golden Tanuki Suit says hi. Remember that? Nintendo doesn't care if you have access to absolutely broken things.

No, I'm sure they knew outright how broken the badges were. They literally made it possible to buy tons of them. Tanuki Suit also wasn't honestly that broken. It was stupid, but it's no Danger Mario. You still have to actually win the game with a lot of effort and good platforming. It also had a time limit to be up, so it wasn't perfect. It also makes you fall straight down, so you can outright die in a pit. It was strong, but definitely not that game-breaking as Danger Mario. Not even on the remote same level.

They didn't really care it was way more broken than they thought. They don't need tweaking. They need an outright overhaul to make that kind of build actually truly risky. They already hit the idea home with SPM, PM64, and as we can see, PMTOK. They have the right equipment system now, without any broken bits. It's pretty hard to expand a giant list of badges and then wonder why people are annoyed when it's massively weakened as an option. They weren't exactly left with a middle ground. Not when TTYD is massively praised for its systems. Trying to rebuild that but balanced is a gargantuan task in the end. There was no way to win with that. And it definitely didn't make sense in SPM due to not being a typical rpg. They've done an interesting job of recreating the idea in SS and CS, but the problem was the enemies were too powerful and the lack of traditional experience(both games had it for mostly inventory increase purposes) made it harder to work with.

 

[Polarthief]

No, I'm sure they knew outright how broken the badges were. They literally made it possible to buy tons of them. Tanuki Suit also wasn't honestly that broken. It was stupid, but it's no Danger Mario. You still have to actually win the game with a lot of effort and good platforming. It also had a time limit to be up, so it wasn't perfect. It also makes you fall straight down, so you can outright die in a pit. It was strong, but definitely not that game-breaking as Danger Mario. Not even on the remote same level.

Wasn't the Golden Tanuki Suit a P-Wing + Starman? P-Wing alone is broken. Adding invulnerability to it is beyond broken.

They didn't really care it was way more broken than they thought. They don't need tweaking. They need an outright overhaul to make that kind of build actually truly risky. They already hit the idea home with SPM, PM64, and as we can see, PMTOK. They have the right equipment system now, without any broken bits. It's pretty hard to expand a giant list of badges and then wonder why people are annoyed when it's massively weakened as an option. They weren't exactly left with a middle ground. Not when TTYD is massively praised for its systems. Trying to rebuild that but balanced is a gargantuan task in the end. There was no way to win with that. And it definitely didn't make sense in SPM due to not being a typical rpg. They've done an interesting job of recreating the idea in SS and CS, but the problem was the enemies were too powerful and the lack of traditional experience(both games had it for mostly inventory increase purposes) made it harder to work with.

Except what we're left with is a very shallow RPG with "some accessories" and only items. It's very barebones stuff that I don't even expect from the NES days since Final Fantasy 1 was more complex in having permanent magic options for every class (except Monk and pre-advanced Fighter/Thief). Having everything be consumable means it's an all-or-nothing sort of deal. The Accessories makes me think of SMRPG Accessories in that they do a wide array of things, but you don't even have different weapon-and-armor equips from those games. You literally have items and the trinket slot(s?). That doesn't sound nearly as enjoyable as a vast array of customization options that also allows you to get powerful but costly (to your mana, MP, FP, etc) moves to assist you. Looking at SS/CS, you didn't even have this accessory slot or basic attacks, which makes them obviously worse from the get-go.

BP was fun and allowed you to have a slew of options. Even if some were broken, not everyone went with those options, and you could have a unique experience every time you played. With so few options, every playthrough will end up being the same as you throw your (OBVIOUSLY NOT STICKERS) consumables at every tough battle and run away from the non-mandatory ones since they don't even reward you with anything.

Like take a look at SMRPG. Imagine if spells weren't in the game at all. Now also imagine if Mallow, Geno, Bowser, and Peach weren't even playable. You also don't have level ups, so you're never actually getting stronger, just the items you use and the handful of accessories make you better. There's also no weapon or armor equips, but a few more accessory slots, but waaaaaaay less accessories to choose from. There, I just turned SMRPG into tOK, and I cannot imagine how anyone can see this as "a good system". Leagues better than SS/CS, sure, but to remotely call this a "better" system for RPG customization, I just can't fathom that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Lordy, it'd take forever to reply on this one;

Okay, the Tanuki suit does have infinite flight, yes. However, there's also water levels you can't use it or its tail attack in. You also can outright die if you use the suit over a pit. You'll drop down instantly. They made sure the game has counters to it.

I feel FP is not... notable in Paper Mario. It's tacked on because of it being a SMRPG sequel, not because it's magic or anything. It doesn't really do anything different from consumable items in general. It's just there and happens to work. In SMRPG, there's actual magic within the game and various spells to cast. It's presented in a way where it is there because it's logical. It's not for the sake of "oh, I guess it works". I think lore is very important too of why magic is possible. It's not bad, but it's not what makes Paper Mario special either. Leveling up your partners is actually notable instead.

Also, I said that equipment in TTYD was broken(the Badge System). The limitation TOK has on it makes it actually better because you can still customize, but there's no signs of a massively broken loadout. Now here's how Danger Mario is; you have no limit to Mega Rush or Last Stand. Those cost 1 BP each. That's right, 1. It adds up fast. You can also combine it with Power Rush. These all cost 1 BP. That means with enough of each, you can become almost entirely invincible effectively. You'll win nearly every battle before you'd take 1 damage(and sometimes it's easy to negate that damage). This is why it's a massive game breaker. Tanuki Suit in comparison is a very small game breaker, due to tangible downsides.

I don't like comparing the game to SMRPG because they're completely different games. One's a JPRG entirely. The other game is a Paper World that focuses more on characters and puzzles. Paper Mario's other issues was awful inventory systems till Sticker Star finally had one that wasn't gutter trash small. Not that it fixed the outright equipment system either(only SPM really did that well, honestly. No broken loadouts, still has a lot of options). TOK actually allows multiple equipment without broken loadouts.

I feel that consumables are meaningful as long as they exist. But I also don't see a single PM game as remotely shallow. They have their unique things that makes them stand out. There's more to it than just gameplay, after all. They have things like dialogue, unique cutscenes(the Things are a type of cutscene, btw), and more. They all are different in a neat way.

Keep in mind I don't like overloaded abilities/things that are super easy to get. My favorite RPG is Quest 64. The game is simplistic. There's no equipment. You have a max stat set up purely through grinding(and you can easily win the game with zero grinding by picking up items). Your inventory admittedly is trash due to too much scrolling, but doesn't allow for any overpowered builds. None of the builds are truly overpowered, due to having downsides and bosses taking a while to beat, so you can't rely on stuff remotely similar to Danger Mario. If you train long enough, they can't hurt you as easily. But it still focuses on Magic as a concept, and it's told you to within the story and NPC dialogue. It's part of the world. There's no money either, btw. But it does its job, a nice beginner's rpg with a lot of unique depth to customize. I want more customization in PM, and TOK already hit that mark. I see lots of options there, but not exploitable ones. That's good enough for me. I don't want Badges back. Unless we mean PM64 where they were fair, and I think they start to make puzzles less interesting. Spike protection was cool when it was an actual partner. As a badge, it's a bit much. Zap Tap is pretty overpowered since it makes at least a few enemies unable to do anything. If they had alternate attacks, it'd be fine. The problem with the badges is that they didn't do anything to make other enemies stand a chance against you, so they were too good for what they did. The system was pretty broken in practice. SMRPG is also a bad comparison. Even the best layout didn't make you outright invincible or make certain enemies unable to do anything. And I don't mean enemies who are hyper weak.

I don't deny the lack of traditional experience sucks. But the fact experience is still there in different forms is important to me. An RPG without any form of leveling up something within the game is not an RPG. That's the core thing. Leveling up your HP, inventories? These count as an experience level up. It's fine other people don't like it, and I get that. But I won't dare to call it shallow because it's not. It outright gives you more options of items to use in battles. I do low level runs often and that's why I like Sticker Star. The focus isn't grinding out levels to win, but using your wits to defeat enemies. Sure, there's a money grind, but every rpg has that as long as it has money from enemies.

Regardless, I don't think the direction is remotely bad, and I don't want the Badge System to return. Not without a massive rework so enemies aren't invalidated. PM64 still had issues with it, as I noted above. I don't think it's a good system, and I haven't seen how it is an actual good system. It's too flawed, even in the first game. I'd say TOK is starting to him home how an equipment system should be. SMRPG has a great equipment system, too. There was no way to hyper break the game at all. You could somewhat break it, but not hyper break it. That's good enough for me.

 

[RedMachine123]

Wasn't the Golden Tanuki Suit a P-Wing + Starman? P-Wing alone is broken. Adding invulnerability to it is beyond broken.

Depends on which game are you talking about. In New Super Mario Bros 2 it made you invincible and allowed you to fly indefinitely. However, in Super Mario 3D Land and Super Mario 3D World you could only glide so dying by falling down into a pit was way easier.

 

[Loliko YnT]

When you can make yourself "hard invincible with a near !% chance of being hit" while doing massive damage and can kill most enemies, even late game ones, with one turn? That's broken. Paper Mario 64 was doing it fine, but stacking badges like that was not "good design". It was an outright broken thing. That is a core design problem. Badges got too powerful due to how they were made. A few being stackable like HP alone isn't that bad. As long as they had a massive cost to try and balance it out, but they went too far in TTYD as the system forgot that was what kept them in check. That is an inherent problem with the system. And you can't just have a super limited amount of stats without building the entire game around it. Even SPM did this a bit better, as your max stats actually do scale reasonably along the enemies(even though they become a but unfair during the Dark 100 Trials, even as a challenge mode, they should've been a bit more toned down). TTYD is neat as an idea to have more than one loadout, but there was no reason not to get BP to max and throw nearly everything into Danger and Peril options. Why wouldn't you use it? It's literally the best loadout to the point of absurdity.

The equipment being limited as a build was great in 64 because you could still have a good backup option while not being overly ridiculous. You could cheese a few enemies, sure, like Zap Tap against Fuzzies. This isn't the same thing as being able to easy turn kill almost everything(and bosses weren't even a challenge with those setups).

I like being overpowered sometimes, but that doesn't make it good design either. Paper Mario 64 had it right by making things challenging, even Bowser, at full power. TTYD went too far. They never hit a good balance after PM64 either. There's bosses that are nothing but damage sponges and needing a specific item is terrible. Super had the same issue with the Dark version of the 100 Floors. The enemies got too damn tough and you didn't have enough items to replenish health(seriously, tiny inventories are horrible if you're going to put a giant set of battles one after another. That's not good game design. If you had FP in that game to replenish health, sure. But you don't).

With game mechanics, if you can easily break it with no sweat? There is a problem with that mechanic. Badges were a broken mechanic. It's not just the fault of a specific badge. It's the fact they failed to attempt a balance in TTYD. You have 99 Badge Points max(this is easy to get to) with more than enough coins. You can grind it out easily and then watch as you dominate the game. It's not some secret move, it's an outright game breaker. This is due to the fact that there was no limitation to how many of each badge, except by the hard number you own(this is why limiting those is a necessity for balance) and the fact you didn't have a decent limitation on BP. I'd even argue Paper Mario 64 could use a few more BP too, but 30 was pretty fair. Only Bowser among the normal bosses could give you trouble, and the few bonus bosses were a good challenge too, but none of these you could hard cheese, so it never got broken. A mechanic can obviously be broken and fun, but badges in TTYD were not designed to be balanced. They were designed to allow for broken loadouts(or they didn't really pay attention to how easily you could break the game. It's probably the former, though, since it wasn't hard to figure out for anyone. It's not exactly a secret technique, but the only optimal build).

"Charging a few turns to deal massive damage" is not the same thing as attacking and dealing massive damage in one turn that almost nothing can survive. That has a balance in itself, but seeing as how you're almost impossible to hit, that combined with Danger Mario also becomes a game breaker. The way you can combine badges is a problem in itself. Them removing them but giving similar abilities in SPM actually did a pretty good job of balancing the concept, with less massively broken options. The only real missing thing at that point was Zap Tap, but everything else was there. They could've easily fixed it by limiting certain options. Having small boosts for low HP isn't bad, if you can't massively stack them. They could've highered the costs massively so 99 BP was meaningless. Those stuff should've been at least 8-10 BP each if not more, to try and lower its damage potential enough where you have a high risk high reward. But it's almost no risk high reward in TTYD. That's not a good balance. And that's due to the mechanic as a whole not trying to be balanced. TTYD has a broken badge system. PM64 simply didn't. Just blaming the Badges doesn't change why it works that way. It's an issue with the mechanic as a whole not having it being a single piece of equipment too, which allowed for these kind of ridiculous loadout(or even a decent limitation, though I forget the max number of HP/FP ups in PM 64, but that's about where you want to go with. Even 5 of each puts you in a risky position for the Danger Mario setup).

And you know what ?

I agree that Danger/Peril Mario is stupidly broken in TTYD. And I agree that badge stacking get ugly with these specific badges. But you said it yourself :
Paper Mario 64 succeeded with that mechanic. The problem isn't badges , it's what TTYD chosed to build upon , and most notably the lack of a level cap.

So in the end , this is something that can be tweaked. Adding back a proper cap for BPs , and making it so badge stacking is nerfed would solve this issue. (Example : A badge cost 1 BP. If you want to double dip , you will have to spend 2 BPs for the second badge instead of 1 BP. And it will continue like that , until it cost a ridiculous ammount. They kind of did that in another way , if you equip the same attack badge several times , the attack will cost way more FPs.)

And I don't think they designed badges in the mentality that "screw it , let the players have fun , what is the worse that could happen ?" , more-so that badge stacking really looks like a late addition during development. Correct me if I'm wrong , but through overworld exploration , you can't get the same badge twice. You have to get them through fights or the casino. Or maybe you can get the same badges several times through the badge shop ?

But I admit that the real challenge come in expending on this mechanic while keeping it balanced , and TTYD proved how hard it is. Perhaps the best is too not change too much about this mechanic , and focus on expending on other aspects/create new gameplay mechanics ?
It's a complex topic , and despise how much I love talking about the topic , I'm no game designer.

 

[KingHippo]

Nintendo should seriously consider putting Geno in Smash and remaking Super Mario RPG at the same time. It would be incredible.

 

[Theguy123]

Nintendo should seriously consider putting Geno in Smash and remaking Super Mario RPG at the same time. It would be incredible.

It’s not that simple. They’d need the rights from square first.

 

[Theguy123]

Nintendo have been dropping trailer for the last few days now for games. What if we’re kind of in the middle of a Nintendo direct that’s being spread about throughout the days.

 

[Heoj]

Nintendo have been dropping trailer for the last few days now for games. What if we’re kind of in the middle of a Nintendo direct that’s being spread about throughout the days.

I would say they dont seem to be doing a great job if thats what they are doing.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And you know what ?

I agree that Danger/Peril Mario is stupidly broken in TTYD. And I agree that badge stacking get ugly with these specific badges. But you said it yourself :
Paper Mario 64 succeeded with that mechanic. The problem isn't badges , it's what TTYD chosed to build upon , and most notably the lack of a level cap.

So in the end , this is something that can be tweaked. Adding back a proper cap for BPs , and making it so badge stacking is nerfed would solve this issue. (Example : A badge cost 1 BP. If you want to double dip , you will have to spend 2 BPs for the second badge instead of 1 BP. And it will continue like that , until it cost a ridiculous ammount. They kind of did that in another way , if you equip the same attack badge several times , the attack will cost way more FPs.)

And I don't think they designed badges in the mentality that "screw it , let the players have fun , what is the worse that could happen ?" , more-so that badge stacking really looks like a late addition during development. Correct me if I'm wrong , but through overworld exploration , you can't get the same badge twice. You have to get them through fights or the casino. Or maybe you can get the same badges several times through the badge shop ?

But I admit that the real challenge come in expending on this mechanic while keeping it balanced , and TTYD proved how hard it is. Perhaps the best is too not change too much about this mechanic , and focus on expending on other aspects/create new gameplay mechanics ?
It's a complex topic , and despise how much I love talking about the topic , I'm no game designer.

I actually don't think PM64 did it right either. Zap Tap is utterly ridiculous if it can make enemies unable to do anything else. They didn't think that through. Fuzzies not having anything else? They didn't actually balance it so you can't wafflestomp something. Good balance means you don't get any free passes either.

I don't see any reason to believe in some magical late addition. No, they knew what was happening. They clearly didn't playtest the badges. They could've done way better. PM64 is still flawed too.

As I said in a previous post, I do not think they're all that fixable. They have the right idea with TOK, where they're proper equipment. This means you can't outright exploit this or make enemies completely impossible to hurt you. No enemy should be basically "free kill". They should all only have that if you have a decent enough level alone from proper grinding. I don't think any free passes are good game design to begin with. PM64 is still quite flawed. You don't need the ability to be immune to spikes. That was a good partner ability, but that is also rather broken early on. Making you go back to get a new badge is not a bad thing either. Exploration is a core part of your RPG adventure. But that's also a problem with how chapters allowed you to outright miss things(one of the things TTYD did right was directly give you access to badges or boss information you missed).

Either way, I'm happy as long as there's something to level up. Inventory is good enough for me.

 

[axel_]

Yeah I'm sure "Yu" is referring to Persona 4 Golden and not Smash. I can't see Atlus and Sega just porting it to PC and being done with it, not with how big of a cash cow Persona is for em these days. It's likely timed exclusivity. Stoked to play it too, I finished 3 FES not too long ago and have been waiting for a chance to get Golden in a way that doesn't send me into the triple digits to get a Vita or PSTV.

also nevermind the fact that Yu and Mario HAVE been on the same console before thanks to the Persona Q games but ya know, details

Sakurai wouldn't add yet ANOTHER anime swordsman... Would he..?

That doesn't say anything about Smash, just hinting at it coming to Switch. Yes Sakurai would and probably will add at least one more anime swordsman, but I doubt he would double dip into a series that was already added as DLC.

My first thought would be Persona 4 coming to Switch.

The first stage of grief is denial. Narukami is in Smash. Get owned idiot.

 

[Polarthief]

Also, I said that equipment in TTYD was broken(the Badge System). The limitation TOK has on it makes it actually better because you can still customize, but there's no signs of a massively broken loadout. Now here's how Danger Mario is; you have no limit to Mega Rush or Last Stand. Those cost 1 BP each. That's right, 1. It adds up fast. You can also combine it with Power Rush. These all cost 1 BP. That means with enough of each, you can become almost entirely invincible effectively. You'll win nearly every battle before you'd take 1 damage(and sometimes it's easy to negate that damage). This is why it's a massive game breaker. Tanuki Suit in comparison is a very small game breaker, due to tangible downsides.

See you keep saying there's a problem with "broken builds", but that's only a problem in competitive multiplayer, where it's outright unfair for the other players where it overshadows everything else. You don't see people playing any competitive game with a "limit yourself" kind of challenge. Reminder that this is, and always will be, a *single-player experience*, therefore, it doesn't remotely matter if something is broken or not, especially if you don't realize it right away. I had no idea my first times playing through the game that Danger Mario was so amazing or effective and I'd be willing to bet 99% of players, even the amazing PM speedrunners and challenge players, would have realized that from the get-go either. The fact that there's so much customization is part of what makes PM fun, and having even stupidly broken builds possible, again, is part of the fun. Should they have adjusted some of the badges, especially the 1BP Danger badges? Oh absolutely, but saying "it's a bad system because you can break it" is like saying you shouldn't be allowed to breed for max IVs, the best nature and ability, train for optimal EVs, and bring a Pokemon to its fullest potential with the best possible loadout for the single-player story. Yeah it's gonna take you a lot longer, but doing something like that would absolutely break the single-player game (and even worse, it's a must in multiplayer to even stand a chance since everyone else is gonna do it), in the same way Danger Mario breaks TTYD, and yet not everyone does it, in either game.

I don't like comparing the game to SMRPG because they're completely different games. One's a JPRG entirely. The other game is a Paper World that focuses more on characters and puzzles.

Yet you're comparing the BP system in an RPG to the whatever system in tOK, which isn't labeled as an RPG. Why are you splitting hairs? Paper Mario and SMRPG are both platformer-exploration games with RPG battle systems. I don't get why it's fine to compare 64/TTYD to tOK but not SMRPG to tOK.

I feel that consumables are meaningful as long as they exist. But I also don't see a single PM game as remotely shallow. They have their unique things that makes them stand out. There's more to it than just gameplay, after all. They have things like dialogue, unique cutscenes(the Things are a type of cutscene, btw), and more. They all are different in a neat way.

Sorry, I meant to say "the battle system is shallow", which it is, and has been since SS (I'd argue since SPM personally, but many people do love that game so whatever). tOK is making it slightly better, but again, without EXP or any real reward from battles, I will guarantee you most players will eventually just run away from non-mandatory encounters when they realize how worthless they are. As an added bonus, they probably won't feel very fun either when you're spamming basic Jump and Hammer attacks without wanting to waste precious resources on rewardless battles.

Keep in mind I don't like overloaded abilities/things that are super easy to get. My favorite RPG is Quest 64. The game is simplistic. There's no equipment. You have a max stat set up purely through grinding(and you can easily win the game with zero grinding by picking up items). Your inventory admittedly is trash due to too much scrolling

I've played Quest 64 and while I do fondly look back on it, I do think there's things about it that can be tweaked. That said, it has a resource system to manage and you do grow by doing battles and what you do. You also learn new spells by picking an element of your choice. This is vastly different and way more complex than tOK. For the record, I've never finished Quest 64. I've gotten far (furthest I remember getting is the Water area, so the third area I believe?), but never finished. That said...

but doesn't allow for any overpowered builds. None of the builds are truly overpowered, due to having downsides and bosses taking a while to beat, so you can't rely on stuff remotely similar to Danger Mario.

Doesn't every enemy attack with magic, literally the same spells that you cast? Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I do believe every enemy specifically uses some form of spell for attacking, which means Magic Barrier basically makes you invulnerable, to an even bigger degree than Danger+Dodge Mario. It also gives you Avalanche which, again, correct me if I'm wrong, can hit multiple times for a lot of damage.

Now I'm not saying every player knows this right away or even chooses to go with Earth (since you'll probably need some Water for healing, especially before you get Magic Barrier), but it's still a later-game option that players can realize on subsequent playthroughs... kinda like discovering Danger Mario on a subsequent playthrough...

I don't deny the lack of traditional experience sucks. But the fact experience is still there in different forms is important to me. An RPG without any form of leveling up something within the game is not an RPG. That's the core thing. Leveling up your HP, inventories? These count as an experience level up. It's fine other people don't like it, and I get that. But I won't dare to call it shallow because it's not. It outright gives you more options of items to use in battles. I do low level runs often and that's why I like Sticker Star. The focus isn't grinding out levels to win, but using your wits to defeat enemies. Sure, there's a money grind, but every rpg has that as long as it has money from enemies.

Except these aren't gained by leveling-up, which means you're not growing by battling, which means you're not getting rewarded from battling (aside from items which you only waste in battles), which, TL;DR, means battling is pointless. That's the bottom line and a huge issue I take with SS, CS, and yes, even tOK before the game has even come out.

Regardless, I don't think the direction is remotely bad

It is in its current form. The RPG systems they have in place is terrible. Again, not talking about stuff *outside* of battles, just the battle system looks virtually the same to me as SS/CS, finally with basic attacks, and finally a few pieces of gear, but it's still too shallow and boring for me to bother with.

and I don't want the Badge System to return. Not without a massive rework so enemies aren't invalidated.

That's totally fine. I'm not asking for enemies to be invalidated, but I want some level of customization so my playthrough is completely different from someone else's instead of 99% of players just running away from battles and blowing their load of consumable attacks on mandatory fights. That's not fun in any way.

PM64 still had issues with it, as I noted above. I don't think it's a good system, and I haven't seen how it is an actual good system. It's too flawed, even in the first game. I'd say TOK is starting to him home how an equipment system should be.

I do not understand how you find this rewardless battles system remotely enjoyable and how having a large amount of customization options as *worse* than that, but at this point, we're just going to have to agree to disagree because that's the bottom line. I'm not saying you can't enjoy something I don't like, and I really do hope you enjoy tOK, but there isn't a single thing you can say, from what I've seen of the game, that will make me buy it and/or enjoy it.

 

[Qeomash]

Honestly, I don't mind if there are certain combos in singleplayer games that are utterly broken. In fact, they're fun to discover for yourself. And because it's a single player game, it's perfectly okay to be an unkillable god.

 

[Polarthief]

Honestly, I don't mind if there are certain combos in singleplayer games that are utterly broken. In fact, they're fun to discover for yourself. And because it's a single player game, it's perfectly okay to be an unkillable god.

Exactly, and I don't even run Danger Mario through a majority of my playthroughs. It's not affecting anyone else and you certainly don't need it to beat the game, nor do you ever need to grind there either. It's more options for people who want to play that way, just like the Golden Tanuki Suit exists to invalidate levels if you want it to (except that one is more in your face about it while you need to figure out how broken Zap Tap, the Danger Mario, and Magic Barrier stuff all is).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Unkillable God? You mean cheat codes? Cause that's what cheat codes are for. That's what they were designed for. Including in-game ones. Obviously there's unlock codes too. As well as goofy codes.

But it should not be an inherent option for game balance.

Nonetheless, I am not remotely convinced the Badge System ever was intended to be balanced, and it still isn't balanced even in PM64. It was always flawed. That's why I love what they're doing with TOK. They so far have shown a proper fix to it, with small changes that give yourself a boost, without the broken bits whatsoever. That's perfect for me.

Also, keep in mind I only referred to the Tanuki Suit in Super Mario Bros. 3 specifically. That was a bit broken/overpowered at most. You were talking about a completely different thing.

Moving back onto Geno(damn we go off-topic a lot, don't we?) I hope that using certain specials has his normal card suit show up in some of the animations, like the magic that SMRPG has.

 

[Qeomash]

Unkillable God? You mean cheat codes? Cause that's what cheat codes are for. That's what they were designed for. Including in-game ones. Obviously there's unlock codes too. As well as goofy codes.

But it should not be an inherent option for game balance.

I was exaggerating with "unkillable god". How many single player games have you played where by the end game, if you've got the best gear in the game the final bosses are trivial? That's what I'm meaning.

I've never run with this "danger Mario" build, but it doesn't surprise me that such a thing exists. It doesn't detract from the game at all being that unbalanced. If you don't want to use it, don't.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Enigma735 The main things that pointed to Geno in 2006 and 2007 were entries in "Sakurai's Journal." These were entries were entries made to the Brawl Poll that ran shortly after E3 2006. The poll was done in Japanese and submissions were split into three main categories: character requests, music requests, and words of encouragement to the Brawl team. Sakurai chose 290 entries to make public although his reasons for picking those specific entries was never totally explained. Of the entries he shared, these were the characters that came up the most often:

King Dedede(5)
Diddy Kong(4)
Geno(4) (technically 5 because Geno had an entry about music, specifically "Beware the Forest's Mushrooms")
Ike(4)
Ridley(4)
Captain Olimar & Pikmin(3)
Krystal(3)
Takamaru(3)
Windwaker Link(3)
Animal Crossing MC(2)
Claus(2)
Demiru(2)
Isaac(2)
Jeff(2)
Kawasima(2)
King K.Rool(2)
Lip(2)
Lucas(2)
Mega Man(2)
Oguma(2)
Ouendan(2)
Sukapon(2)

https://smashboards.com/threads/characters-on-sakurais-poll.71872/

Notice anything? Most of these characters would go on to be either playable or assist trophies in Brawl alone. Nearly all these characters would eventually be prrrrrrromoted, even if it wasn't until Ultimate. All in all, in was a pretty strong indicator of characters that Sakurai was interested in making playable in Brawl. Again, we didn't get confirmation that Sakurai was strongly interested in Geno until 2016, 8 years later, from the man himself here:

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016...ans-one-most-requested-smash-bros-characters/

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I was exaggerating with "unkillable god". How many single player games have you played where by the end game, if you've got the best gear in the game the final bosses are trivial? That's what I'm meaning.

Practically none. Cause it's not actually a common thing. You almost always are in a challenging position. Golden Sun? Every game the final boss is a reasonable challenge, and you're only going to usually be in the 40-60's. Even if you grind out to max, you won't be overpowered. They're designed to be fair but challenging bosses. The way balance should be. Final Fantasy games? You almost never will be even close to what you're suggesting. Not in Dragon Quest either. Even, as I noted, Quest 64 doesn't allow that. You still take massive damage and have to actually heal to win. So... no, it's not really a basic thing.

I've never run with this "danger Mario" build, but it doesn't surprise me that such a thing exists. It doesn't detract from the game at all being that unbalanced. If you don't want to use it, don't.

It's severely broken and due to a lack of playtesting of the badge system. They couldn't even get a proper "can't miss the timing" badge to work, because it had no limit they were able to make work. It obviously would've worked fine if it ended... at say, 10 hits. No big deal, as long as you can't be too broken with other badges. They didn't playtest badges all that well, and it shows. The badge system is really bad in the end for both games. They're fun ideas, but they were never designed in a balanced way. To note, Mario & Luigi have badges too, but it's worth also noting none of these gave you a free pass throughout the game. You could still easily lose against bosses if you played poorly. They were good, but not that good. The best option gave you a boost of attack power for having 99 of an item, and it didn't let you dominate the game at all. That's what good balance is, no equipment build allows domination of the general game. Again, that's what cheat codes are for, not what good gameplay is for.

It's very surprising, because they didn't do this is any other Mario rpg either. They all had strong but fair items overall. The only time those strong items would overwhelm an opponent is if you were already fighting early game enemies after being well above their level regardless of the equipment. The only two games in the Mario RPG history with any kind of broken equipment is PM64(and only loosely broken in very specific situations) and TTYD(massively broken setup with Danger Mario). The reality is, we've never seen these "broken situations" outside of the Badge system. Even Mario & Luigi, who technically have badges, follow the proper system that SMRPG created. You get 3 equipment. And none of these options were actually broken at any bit. So yes, the flaw does lie within the badge system itself, because it needs to be limited as a whole to work. It's not just one build, it's the fact that there's no limitation to things in general that makes it plausible. TOK fixes this to be like SMRPG and Mario & Luigi, where the equipment systems were limited but still very very good and fair. Best loadout doesn't allow you to easily win in most rpg's at the end game. If I'm being honest, the only game where I've seen best loadout be broken in TTYD and that's it. The rest? Good luck with that.

 

[Polarthief]

Geno(4) (technically 5 because Geno had an entry about music, specifically "Beware the Forest's Mushrooms") (Spirit)
Krystal(3) (AT)
Takamaru(3) (AT)
Claus(2) (Spirit, multiple) (huge doubt; Porky's not even in yet)
Demiru(2)
Isaac(2) (AT)
Jeff(2) (AT) (huge doubt; Porky's not even in yet)
Kawasima(2)
Lip(2)
Oguma(2)
Ouendan(2) (Spirit)
Sukapon(2) (AT)

Man that's an interesting list when you cross out remove the "confirmed in the game" characters... Look who is at the top.
Edit: Erased the characters that were added to be playable for easier reading.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

Man that's an interesting list when you cross out the "confirmed in the game" characters... Look who is at the top.

Takamaru is an assist.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Takamaru is an assist.

And was one before a Spirit, heh.

...Actually, aren't all the Assists in Ultimate a Spirit too?

 

[Spatulo]

And was one before a Spirit, heh.

...Actually, aren't all the Assists in Ultimate a Spirit too?

Yeah, all the assists and pokéball Pokémon have spirits

 

[Polarthief]

Takamaru is an assist.

Ffs, I could have sworn he was (because of TM's Geno for Smash video) but I did a search to be safe and for some reason I only saw "spirit".

Went ahead and fixed that, thank you.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Just to save everybody time, all but three of those characters would eventually go on to be playable, assist trophies, or Mii costumes. The only three that didn't still eventually got spirits: Deimru (the rabbit protagonist of the little known Alpha Dream "Tomato Adventure"), Oguma (one of the party characters in Fire Emblem IV (I think), and Ouendan (Ouendan Cheer Squad, which eventually got an English rehash known as Elite Beat Agents for the DS). Also, those three were Japanese exclusive characters too. Still, even back in the Brawl days, a good chunk of that list eventually became playable.

 

[Polarthief]

Just to save everybody time, all but three of those characters would eventually go on to be playable, assist trophies, or Mii costumes. The only three that didn't still eventually got spirits: Deimru (the rabbit protagonist of the little known Alpha Dream "Tomato Adventure"), Oguma (one of the party characters in Fire Emblem IV (I think), and Ouendan (Ouendan Cheer Squad, which eventually got an English rehash known as Elite Beat Agents for the DS). Also, those three were Japanese exclusive characters too. Still, even back in the Brawl days, a good chunk of that list eventually became playable.

Wait, do they have spirits? I looked up every character I didn't know for sure and the Smash wiki didn't mention anything about them.

 

[Sigran101]

Looks like Nintendo has no problem announcing or streaming on the weekend.
Pokemon stream announcement

 

[pinshadow]

Looks like Nintendo has no problem announcing or streaming on the weekend.
Pokemon stream announcement

This is pretty clearly just a promotional thing for Amazons new gaming thing, even if people from NoA are involved. Besides, it's pretty clear Pokemon is handled as it's own seperate entity by Nintendo all the time.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Wait, do they have spirits? I looked up every character I didn't know for sure and the Smash wiki didn't mention anything about them.

Demille:

Ouendan:

Kawashima:

You appear to be right about Ougma though. I could have sworn he had a spirit too.