Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Firox]

One thing I think we can all agree on, is at least she don’t look like ss zelda. That Zelda got a nose that an elephant would be jealous of.

SAVAGE. LOL Seriously though, I'm not so shallow as to love or hate a Zelda in Smash purely for her looks. I prioritize originality and fighting capability. You know, like a fighting game SHOULD.

EDIT: I'm not venting this at you, specifically. I just feel that people often forget the context of a fighting game and treat smash more like their personal collection of anime plushies.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

See, the thing is, it isn't even about a personal dislike for BotW Zelda. Look at all the angles of trying to include her:

1) She hasn't demonstrated any kind of combat capability. Period. Current Smash Zelda's moveset is mostly derived from Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess where we saw a Zelda that could wield offensive and defensive magic, transformation magic, masquerade as a freaking medieval ninja and shoot light arrows. Then we have BotW Zelda that spent 90% of her time crying and being a living MacGuffin. Granted, the MacGuffin thing is kind of Zelda in a nutshell, but still, we're talking about putting this character in a FIGHTING game. A Smash moveset for her would have to fabricated out of thin air. Doable? Sure, but then we come to my next point...

She looks completely combat capable in BOTW 1 and literally is adventuring. It's not remotely hard to add her, so I don't see any of that as an issue at all. There's a crapload of items and abilities she could easily do. And as noted, she'd be fine as a unique separate character. Nothing to do with the other Zelda beyond both having Zelda in her name.

2) Do we REALLY need more clones/semi-clones of Link, Zelda and Ganondorf??? As others have said, LoZ features more than a few potentially interesting and original characters. I honestly do not see the need or appeal of regurgitating yet another bland iteration of a pre-existing character.

Literally nobody suggested one. BOTW Zelda is nothing like the Smash Zelda at all in any particular way. That's why she wasn't a feasible choice. She's purely a physical fighter, which is completely different from Smash Zelda being a magic user while kind of being a monk archtype in a way(which also describes most physical attackers, including Falcon and Ganondorf).

...Pig Ganon literally has nothing in common with Ganondorf and is a completely different body. Being the same person/character does not make for a clone or semi-clone. Nobody even mentioned Link.

3) The ultra-shill nature of putting BotW 2 Zelda in as one of the last few precious DLC slots. We have a plethora of completely original and far more interesting characters in existence all vying for those last 6 seats of glory. Do we really want to burn one of them to put in a character that the game technically already has??? I sure as hell don't. To any that answer yes to that question, we'll just have to accept our differing points of view while I shake my head in pity.

And she wouldn't be completely original because? Shill is one thing(which is a bad term, anyway), but nobody suggested a single bit of her being anything but completely original at any point. Please don't make assumptions. Especially when the suggestion was clearly being completely unique the entire time. I don't know how you remotely got the idea I was suggesting her as a clone/semi-clone.

(The other character ideas are neat, but they don't feel any more special as a suggestion. Major characters, that is, actually major, not smaller ones like the Champions, are cool ideas too. Midna/BOTW Zelda/etc. are all on the same level of importance. That's their point. They're the actual main characters, not secondary. You posted your list after I replied, so I won't delve into example. Not that I think they have an actual chance, though frankly they should have. But recurring and major ones clearly have shown to have priority. Even if Sheik wasn't there, the roster would've been pretty much the same for now. Hell, Zelda is only in because Sheik is in and vice versa. The entire idea was two completely different characters being transformations, to benefit from each other. Clearly it didn't work right, and thanks to Smash 4, they somewhat fixed it up. And then Ultimate fixed Zelda up so she's actually viable for once).

- Exor: Like Snorlax, but hits a point at the top of the stage. Whoever gets hit is auto-KO'd.
- Jinx: Does his famous Jinxed move on people as well as Bombs Away! projectiles.
- Culex: Each crystal does an elemental projectile: Fire Stone(? I forgot what it was called; basically Meteor), Ice Rock, Boulder, and Bolt, and Culex does a Dark Star to finish it off.
- Mack: Fire Wall, summons dudes, hops around on people.
- Bowyer (if not a stage hazard): Shoots people with arrows. Disables specific commands for people hit (like shields, smashes, and specials).

Dude, that sounds nice~

 

[MisterMike]

not to get political or anything but I think geno is a pretty good lil fella

How dare you.

 

[skydogc]

How dare you.

You take that back! That man may have a radical idea, but he might be onto something!!

 

[Firox]

Literally nobody suggested one. BOTW Zelda is nothing like the Smash Zelda at all in any particular way. That's why she wasn't a feasible choice. She's purely a physical fighter, which is completely different from Smash Zelda being a magic user while kind of being a monk archtype in a way(which also describes most physical attackers, including Falcon and Ganondorf).

And she wouldn't be completely original because? Shill is one thing(which is a bad term, anyway), but nobody suggested a single bit of her being anything but completely original at any point. Please don't make assumptions. Especially when the suggestion was clearly being completely unique the entire time. I don't know how you remotely got the idea I was suggesting her as a clone/semi-clone.

The thing is, aren't YOU making the assumption that she'd be totally original? And to claim that BotW Zelda's gameplay would be "nothing like Smash Zelda" is totally subjective aside from the fact that one wears a dress while the other wears pants. How do you know that BotW 2 Zelda hasn't learned magic similar to Smash Zelda? How do you know BotW Zelda is a physical fighter? I don't recall her ever fighting in the game to begin with. And even if she was, would that just make her a clumsier Shiek? My point is, sure, you could make her as amazing as you want in your imagination, but there are no guarantees that she'd be what you'd expect. Either way, I still argue that we don't need multiple versions of existing characters, at least no more than we already have. Not when there are so few viable slots left.

 

[Polarthief]

Dude, that sounds nice~

Those were also just what I came up with on the spot and while watching something. I could probably do better.
I wanted to add Axem Rangers because despite being very late-game, they're very memorable (likely for being one of a first-timer's hardest bosses) and should get a reference somewhere.

That said, I really wouldn't mind if we just got Geno, a stage, and a few songs. I'd be happy with that.

 

[Loliko YnT]

Those were also just what I came up with on the spot and while watching something. I could probably do better.
I wanted to add Axem Rangers because despite being very late-game, they're very memorable (likely for being one of a first-timer's hardest bosses) and should get a reference somewhere.

That said, I really wouldn't mind if we just got Geno, a stage, and a few songs. I'd be happy with that.

"I can do this fight without Peach , Mallow can do the heali--"




... Let's just say that resets happened.

 

[Firox]

"I can do this fight without Peach , Mallow can do the heali--"




... Let's just say that resets happened.

lol I do find it kind of sad how fast Mallow became obsolete in SMRPG after you get Peach.

 

[Malo Mart]

BotW 2 Zelda, I dunno man. I'm all in for another Zelda rep, but that's not the way imo. She'd be another Zelda and it's doubtful if she'll even have much to pull from the game for a moveset, but main issue for me is that she'd feel like a total shi- uh, "advertisement" pick, since we know close to nothing about BotW 2 as of now. Not to say that advertisement picks are bad nevessarily, but I'd rather let the character actually grow in popularity and recognition before putting them in Smash, you know? That's why I'd be much more welcoming to someone like Lyn or Sceptile than BotW 2 Zelda, even though I think FE and Pokemon already have enough fighters and TLoZ desperately needs more.

But uhgfsdfgrshaga, rant over! Back on topic, sure would be neat if Geno from the hit Super Nintendo Entertainment System game Super Mario Role-playing Game: Legend of the Seven Stars were to be a fighter in Super Smash Bros Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch, would it not? Especially if he confirmed once and for all that the Cacomallow leak from November 2019 was in fact, a legitimate leak.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing is, aren't YOU making the assumption that she'd be totally original? And to claim that BotW Zelda's gameplay would be "nothing like Smash Zelda" is totally subjective aside from the fact that one wears a dress while the other wears pants. How do you know that BotW 2 Zelda hasn't learned magic similar to Smash Zelda? How do you know BotW Zelda is a physical fighter? I don't recall her ever fighting in the game to begin with. And even if she was, would that just make her a clumsier Shiek? My point is, sure, you could make her as amazing as you want in your imagination, but there are no guarantees that she'd be what you'd expect. Either way, I still argue that we don't need multiple versions of existing characters, at least no more than we already have. Not when there are so few viable slots left.

Why is that relevant?

I'm making a suggestion she would be completely unique. You assumed I'm talking about some kind of clone/semi-clone. That's the issue. Nobody said that. So it made zero sense for you to bring it up in the first place. You shouldn't be complaining about stuff literally nobody said. It makes your point useless if you aren't countering an actual point being made.

Yes, I'm assuming. But that's because she's literally shown as only a physical character, with barely any hints of magic besides "well, she's a Zelda, obviously she can "do" it". Her entire characterization is basically being another Link, exploring the world. That's why people want her playable, as she's presented literally as Link in capabilities. She's never shown to be about magic in the game specifically. She talks about saving the world too, outright going out there to try and fight. It's literally implied she'd do that kind of stuff, since that's really all that she can do within the game without the Champion's help. Besides, the only magic I once suggested is stuff using the iPhone that Link has. Which wasn't really tied to "Triforce of Courage".

In addition, why would she be like Sheik at all? Where are the similar weapons in BOTW that she could use? She doesn't move like a Ninja, nor is there a good reason to believe she'd be able to wear the Sheikah Garb. One thing is dropped weapons, which anybody can use, including the monsters(so there's at least a bit of believability here). Another ting is random additions that don't have any reason to be believed. Since when did Physical = Sheik? I don't see any logic in how that remotely seems plausible. She isn't that much of a blank slate as you think she is. Why would she use anything outside of the game just because? Look, it's clear you dislike the character quite profusely, but your points are making up a lot of stuff that doesn't make any actual sense. No, she wouldn't act like Sheik because she's never presented once as some kind of a ninja. She's presented as a regular outgoing adventurer, the same way Link is. That's the only actual design she's given at any point. Yes, she wears a dress in a cutscene. Yes, as a Zelda, it's clear the ability to use magic or psychic powers is quite possible. Doesn't mean much if she never uses either and always is shown to be physical as a character. Nobody knows what to expect in BOTW 2, which I agree could change things up a lot. But using BOTW as a base, she's physical only. She never fit as a possible replacement for Smash Zelda due to that alone. ...And she's nothing like Sheik in any way.

Those were also just what I came up with on the spot and while watching something. I could probably do better.
I wanted to add Axem Rangers because despite being very late-game, they're very memorable (likely for being one of a first-timer's hardest bosses) and should get a reference somewhere.

That said, I really wouldn't mind if we just got Geno, a stage, and a few songs. I'd be happy with that.

If it helps, I don't think DLC AT's are happening either way. It was just thoughts of what would be neat. I'm expecting at most some SMRPG costumes, Stage, Songs, and a Spirit Board. I'm not even outright expecting a Spirit Board either as it has yet to be confirmed with the new Pass. I doubt it won't be there, mind you, but seeing as how they're doing DLC Spirits quite often, they aren't as needed like before.

 

[Polarthief]

"I can do this fight without Peach , Mallow can do the heali--"
... Let's just say that resets happened.

I hate how useless Mallow feels except groups of enemies weak against ice/electricity. Geno covers single-target ice (Geno Beam) and just has generally better magic; it's really sad. He could have been a viable alternative if he had like HP Shower (heals the whole party), also if both healing spells also recovered status effects.

... also Bowser, lol.

If it helps, I don't think DLC AT's are happening either way. It was just thoughts of what would be neat.

I don't either, I just answered the question that was asked.

I'm expecting at most some SMRPG costumes

Mallow is basically guaranteed. I could see a few others, too. Mii Costume Leaker said Smithy, but idk about that.

Stage

Forest Maze, or a compilation of stages. Hoping for the latter TBH as that would be cooler than just Forest Maze.

Songs

*wishes he could remember what page his list of song choices were on*
I had a whole list of 10 songs (and then 5 more if we could get 15).

and a Spirit Board

Mack, Bowyer, Yaridovich, Axem Rangers, Smithy, Gaz, Croco, Booster, Jinx, Culex. 10's good to start I think.
Some extras just to name more: Toad, Chancellor, Punchinello, Valentina & Dodo, Megasmilax (purely because Viridi referenced it), Shy Away, Lazy Shell (if they wanted to do non-people Spirits).

I'm not even outright expecting a Spirit Board either as it has yet to be confirmed with the new Pass. I doubt it won't be there, mind you, but seeing as how they're doing DLC Spirits quite often, they aren't as needed like before.

Not needed, but nice to reference more of the game.

 

[pinshadow]

We will see. (While it has been brought up many times, why not ask again to settle the heat for a bit.) If Geno isn't Challenger 6 to kickstart FP2, who will it be?

I'm pretty locked in on 6 being an upgrade (Waluigi or Geno) or Dante. I'm just looking at this as "Ok, who would be the first DLC characters chosen/negotiated for if they decided to do more DLC?" They tend to start the DLC with the easiest stuff, the veterans in Smash 4, Piranha Plant who was delayed from base game, and Third Parties who already have characters in Smash Brothers. (Ryu first third party DLC in 4, Joker and Hero first third party DLC in Ultimate). I mean, they had to have a couple characters in mind when they greenlit more DLC. They clearly took awhile to negotiate stuff, considering they seemed to leave it purposefully vague when they announced more DLC in September and didn't set in stone a 2nd Pass and the 6 characters until around when they recorded in November, but some characters had to have been chosen by that September direct.

That just leads us back to the fact that the Geno costume is still missing. I really don't understand how people are looking at this and saying "Oh that doesn't matter, he's not getting in." In fact, let me try and adress the points people keep making about it.

• They just chose not to bring the costumes back!

Why? Sakurai made it clear he specifically chose to add the costume to appease the Geno fanbase and they've had no problem bringing back alot of the other costumes, the work is already done.

• Square just chose not to let the costumes come back!

Geno is a Spirit in the base game though, and why would they change their mind after allowing it in Smash 4? It's literally free money for them.

• It's being saved for a different Square character!

If it was moved to another Square character, then that means whatever Square character the costume was moved to would have needed to be chosen by Nintendo and requested to Sakurai by atleast sometime in July, meaning they were among the first bonus DLC characters chosen, which sounds way better for an upgrade like Geno than someone like 2B/Sora. And even if they did get chosen, and as one of the first post-pass DLC characters, WHY would they move the costume to release later anyway? It serves literally no purpose, just give those characters their own costumes.

• Geno is getting an UPGRADED Mii Costume!

Again, this would have to have been decided by July, before the Sans costume was even revealed, so they would have had to have chosen to do this before any fan reaction to the Deluxe costumes. I don't think Sakurai is going to say "Oh, ok, let's take the Geno costume, spice it up, go to Square and fight for a music track, and then release it later".

• They didn't bring back the Chocobo Hat either!

In case it isn't obvious, Square is way stingier about Final Fantasy in Smash that something like Geno, and again, he's a spirit in the game already, there is zero reason to not have the costume comeback. If the Chocobo costume did get moved, then that heavily supports the idea of another Square character being decided on early for bonus DLC, which again, fairs better for Geno than someone like 2B/Sora.

• The costumes could show up with anyone!

Sqaure clearly has a habit of keeping their stuff seperate from everyone else in Smash. Cloud released all on his own in Smash 4 along with his Mii costume wave, which was just Chocobo and Geno, when every other mii costume wave had anywhere from 6-9. And then we got Hero in Smash Ultimate, again with nothing but his own costumes, and mysteriously the only DLC pack to not have two returning Mii Costumes even though Geno and Chocobo are right there? Again, really supports the idea of a Square Character being chosen for Pass 2 by that point, and I don't think I need to tell you who that looks good for. It's almost like they got moved to somewhere else but Square wouldn't let anything else go in it's place, hmmm.

• Sqaure didn't bring the costumes back because they wanted the Hero Presentation to only focus on Dragon Quest!

Then where are the costumes? If Sqaure actually moved the Geno and Chocobo hats specifically just so they wouldn't take 15 second away from Dragon Quest (which makes no sense but whatever), then where did they get moved to? We finished the first pass, no costumes in sight, so that means either they were moved to someone post-pass, again supporting the idea that whoever the Square character is was chosen early as bonus DLC by July, or that they have just been removed entirely, which makes zero sense given it's literally free money for Square.

Is that everything?

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Probably Crash Bandicoot or Dante if not Geno. I'm betting on Crash though.

I hope you're right (about Crash). I could also see someone requested like Lloyd/Heihachi or a surprise first party/promotion like Waluigi. I just hope the reveal is as jaw-dropping as Joker's was.

As for all this LoZ talk I can't weigh in much cuz I don't play much LoZ but I agree it deserves way more original reps. I may be in the minority in believing that Tingle would be insanely fun, but I'm still going to bring it up. I'm also very partial to Midna and Wolf Link as I believe there is so much original Moveset potential and new mechanic potential and if we're to get another Link variant then let it be this awsome and radically different one please. Pig Ganon would also be very cool and different and I could also see giving Black Shadow Ganon's melee moveset and giving him his own more relevant moveset but then I also know nothing about Black Shadow except that he's from F-Zero. Skull Kid is also just really cool and it's hard not to love that design but I can't speak to moveset potential there.

And to tie it all back to Geno I still believe that Geno could be any one of the 6 fighters in FP2. I know everybody is putting their money on an earlier spot but I'm not expecting that although I'm hopeful for it. Here's to hoping Geno kicks it all off. He deserves it. His fans deserve it. And also more importantly, I NEED IT.

 

[Polarthief]

Btw still kinda worried about this week cuz of that little tiny "New" and the stuff after it on Byleth... Wouldn't that have gone away by now if we're getting a direct in 2 days?

That or they've caught on that we've been noticing that for when the next character will drop, so they're not gonna update it til the next character drops?

 

[Deleted member]

Btw still kinda worried about this week cuz of that little tiny "New" and the stuff after it on Byleth... Wouldn't that have gone away by now if we're getting a direct in 2 days?

View attachment 266875

Gotta keep us guessing. And second guessing.

And going insane.

 

[Deleted member]

Btw still kinda worried about this week cuz of that little tiny "New" and the stuff after it on Byleth... Wouldn't that have gone away by now if we're getting a direct in 2 days?

That or they've caught on that we've been noticing that for when the next character will drop, so they're not gonna update it til the next character drops?

View attachment 266875

The Smash website is rarely even touched by the interns working on it, so I wouldn't fret about it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm pretty locked in on 6 being an upgrade (Waluigi or Geno) or Dante. I'm just looking at this as "Ok, who would be the first DLC characters chosen/negotiated for if they decided to do more DLC?" They tend to start the DLC with the easiest stuff, the veterans in Smash 4, Piranha Plant who was delayed from base game, and Third Parties who already have characters in Smash Brothers. (Ryu first third party DLC in 4, Joker and Hero first third party DLC in Ultimate). I mean, they had to have a couple characters in mind when they greenlit more DLC. They clearly took awhile to negotiate stuff, considering they seemed to leave it purposefully vague when they announced more DLC in September and didn't set in stone a 2nd Pass and the 6 characters until around when they recorded in November, but some characters had to have been chosen by that September direct.

That just leads us back to the fact that the Geno costume is still missing. I really don't understand how people are looking at this and saying "Oh that doesn't matter, he's not getting in." In fact, let me try and adress the points people keep making about it.

• They just chose not to bring the costumes back!

Why? Sakurai made it clear he specifically chose to add the costume to appease the Geno fanbase and they've had no problem bringing back alot of the other costumes, the work is already done.

• Square just chose not to let the costumes come back!

Geno is a Spirit in the base game though, and why would they change their mind after allowing it in Smash 4? It's literally free money for them.

• It's being saved for a different Square character!

If it was moved to another Square character, then that means whatever Square character the costume was moved to would have needed to be chosen by Nintendo and requested to Sakurai by atleast sometime in July, meaning they were among the first bonus DLC characters chosen, which sounds way better for an upgrade like Geno than someone like 2B/Sora. And even if they did get chosen, and as one of the first post-pass DLC characters, WHY would they move the costume to release later anyway? It serves literally no purpose, just give those characters their own costumes.

• Geno is getting an UPGRADED Mii Costume!

Again, this would have to have been decided by July, before the Sans costume was even revealed, so they would have had to have chosen to do this before any fan reaction to the Deluxe costumes. I don't think Sakurai is going to say "Oh, ok, let's take the Geno costume, spice it up, go to Square and fight for a music track, and then release it later".

• They didn't bring back the Chocobo Hat either!

In case it isn't obvious, Square is way stingier about Final Fantasy in Smash that something like Geno, and again, he's a spirit in the game already, there is zero reason to not have the costume comeback. If the Chocobo costume did get moved, then that heavily supports the idea of another Square character being decided on early for bonus DLC, which again, fairs better for Geno than someone like 2B/Sora.

• The costumes could show up with anyone!

Sqaure clearly has a habit of keeping their stuff seperate from everyone else in Smash. Cloud released all on his own in Smash 4 along with his Mii costume wave, which was just Chocobo and Geno, when every other mii costume wave had anywhere from 6-9. And then we got Hero in Smash Ultimate, again with nothing but his own costumes, and mysteriously the only DLC pack to not have two returning Mii Costumes even though Geno and Chocobo are right there? Again, really supports the idea of a Square Character being chosen for Pass 2 by that point, and I don't think I need to tell you who that looks good for. It's almost like they got moved to somewhere else but Square wouldn't let anything else go in it's place, hmmm.

• Sqaure didn't bring the costumes back because they wanted the Hero Presentation to only focus on Dragon Quest!

Then where are the costumes? If Sqaure actually moved the Geno and Chocobo hats specifically just so they wouldn't take 15 second away from Dragon Quest (which makes no sense but whatever), then where did they get moved to? We finished the first pass, no costumes in sight, so that means either they were moved to someone post-pass, again supporting the idea that whoever the Square character is was chosen early as bonus DLC by July, or that they have just been removed entirely, which makes zero sense given it's literally free money for Square.

Is that everything?

I'll answer a few of these;

First, no, we cannot say the costumes were coming back because of the Spirits. All the 3rd Party costumes were entirely made DLC again. That's a conscious decision separate from the Spirits. Literally every single one. That's not a coincidence. DLC was not actually planned(outside of PP at some point) from the start. He couldn't have licensed those costumes till DLC was decided. And every 3rd party company wants extra money for their IP if possible. That's why they were all DLC. It was also a pretty easy conclusion to come to how they'd handle them.

I don't think he's likely to be Premium, but that also means they need to get licensed out for music along with the character, so it is more beneficial to Square instead of a regular costume. Also, you are aware they can re-negotiate when the costume is released if new things come up, right? That means it can easily come with a Pass 2 character.

Obviously the Chocobo Hat means little. Your Hero point doesn't mean anything. We know for a fact they wanted to heavily push DQ. Then we see it's completely DQ for the entire Direct. It's not rocket science. They wanted it DQ-only. We don't know how much of it was just SE. Nintendo is invested in DQ and Sakurai is quite a fan. There's a very hefty chance they all thought it was the best idea. Yes, it's possible both costumes were at one point considered to release then, but it's easy for things to change when Pass 2 was considered. This also just as easily means Geno's costume was scrapped for being playable. It's not about "missing", it's about the fact they had to re-negotiate how to use Geno for DLC if he had a costume in the first place if it was ever going to release in Pass 1.

Also, we can't really say it's impossible for the costumes to show up beyond a SE character too. Hero is not like Cloud, that wasn't focused on SE, it was focused on DQ. Cloud was focused on SE. They're both different situations overall and don't give a pattern or precedent to go off of. We don't know what they're doing. I mean, I do think Geno is going to be playable, but licensing is not as simple as you're suggesting it is. Licensing has to be one-and-done for everything for your theories to work. That's not how it works. Now, you can argue I'm assuming how the DLC negotiations work and all, but Sakurai actually did declare he decided on DLC later on. We don't however know when the DLC Costumes got re-decided entirely on. It's actually possible they never negotiated to return the costumes. More importantly, it's not "the content is there!", it's "we only have it licensed to use in Smash 4 and have to get permission to use it again by Square-Enix". I'm not saying they are likely to say no to returning it either. But they don't have access to using them at all beyond proof of concept for any game besides Smash 4. Unless we're assuming he actually got Smash 4 and all Ultimate SE content licensed(Spirits could not have been licensed till later, mind you, since that was a new thing that came up in development and was not intended right away. But Ultimate was already thought of early enough to license some stuff from 4 to be used in it). To clarify for this costume case, that would mean he licensed the costumes for both games, then Hero was unable to be base(respectively), and they re-negotiated for them to be costumes for DLC. And if any are returning, that also means by that point they would be re-negotiated for a Pass 2 character, even if it's just Chocobo Hat while Geno is playable. That's 3 times over. A lot of companies don't license for future products if they're not sure what's going on. They don't like taking risks. So it's doubtful stuff was licensed for Ultimate and 4 at the same time(not impossible, but doubtful). The timing of Ultimate's development does suggest maybe some of the DLC characters were licensed for both, but only really for Cloud and Bayonetta if any. But read beforehand why it's hard to believe he waited on the costumes for that long. I'm going to clarify one quick thing too;

Sakurai would not have licensed the costumes in 4 and Ultimate at the same time if they were going to be DLC costumes in Ultimate. He outright confirmed DLC was not in the base plans and came up later. So that means they have to negotiate 3 times for the costumes bare minimum as is(well, either way, actually. 4, first set of DLC in Ultimate, second set of DLC in Ultimate) if they were intended to return at any point. I wouldn't be surprised if they never were going to return, Geno is playable, and all new costumes were coming back. In fact, it's quite possible Chocobo Hat wasn't licensed to return till Pass 2 from the start, meaning only licensed out twice(4 and one term per Ultimate). Just remember with licensing, you are limited in usage of the IP based upon the contract. That's why it's not a simple answer for the lack of a costume. There's quite a few things that could've feasibly happened.

 

[Firox]

Why is that relevant?

I'm making a suggestion she would be completely unique. You assumed I'm talking about some kind of clone/semi-clone. That's the issue. Nobody said that. So it made zero sense for you to bring it up in the first place. You shouldn't be complaining about stuff literally nobody said. It makes your point useless if you aren't countering an actual point being made.

Yes, I'm assuming. But that's because she's literally shown as only a physical character, with barely any hints of magic besides "well, she's a Zelda, obviously she can "do" it". Her entire characterization is basically being another Link, exploring the world. That's why people want her playable, as she's presented literally as Link in capabilities. She's never shown to be about magic in the game specifically. She talks about saving the world too, outright going out there to try and fight. It's literally implied she'd do that kind of stuff, since that's really all that she can do within the game without the Champion's help. Besides, the only magic I once suggested is stuff using the iPhone that Link has. Which wasn't really tied to "Triforce of Courage".

In addition, why would she be like Sheik at all? Where are the similar weapons in BOTW that she could use? She doesn't move like a Ninja, nor is there a good reason to believe she'd be able to wear the Sheikah Garb. One thing is dropped weapons, which anybody can use, including the monsters(so there's at least a bit of believability here). Another ting is random additions that don't have any reason to be believed. Since when did Physical = Sheik? I don't see any logic in how that remotely seems plausible. She isn't that much of a blank slate as you think she is. Why would she use anything outside of the game just because? Look, it's clear you dislike the character quite profusely, but your points are making up a lot of stuff that doesn't make any actual sense. No, she wouldn't act like Sheik because she's never presented once as some kind of a ninja. She's presented as a regular outgoing adventurer, the same way Link is. That's the only actual design she's given at any point. Yes, she wears a dress in a cutscene. Yes, as a Zelda, it's clear the ability to use magic or psychic powers is quite possible. Doesn't mean much if she never uses either and always is shown to be physical as a character. Nobody knows what to expect in BOTW 2, which I agree could change things up a lot. But using BOTW as a base, she's physical only. She never fit as a possible replacement for Smash Zelda due to that alone. ...And she's nothing like Sheik in any way.

You're getting so caught up in semantics and moveset potential that you completely missed my primary argument of adding more versions of a pre-existing character. I never said she'd have to play like Shiek, nor do I even care how you imagine she'd play. Nor do I care whether her moveset were 100% original or straight-up cloned. At the end of the day, we don't need another Link or Zelda (or Samus, Mario, or any other character that we already have more than one of). Not when we have 6 slots left for something new and completely original. Again, I don't have so much an issue with BotW Zelda as much as the fact that people are clamoring over a character that they frankly don't know much about (as far as BotW 2 is concerned) or that would offer little in the way of something wholly new. It's obvious that your bias towards her and if that's your cup of tea, knock yourself out. I've spoken my peace so let's move on.

 

[Polarthief]

That just leads us back to the fact that the Geno costume is still missing. I really don't understand how people are looking at this and saying "Oh that doesn't matter, he's not getting in." In fact, let me try and adress the points people keep making about it.
<snipped all your points; they're very relevant though>

I truly do think Geno was discussed for the first pass, because otherwise his costume would have come by now with Hero. If he truly was the "5th DLC Sakurai wanted but Nintendo pushed Byleth instead", then it makes sense to not bring back the costume since he'd be coming in FP2. If he wasn't even mentioned, why delay the costume, y'know?

I don't think he's likely to be Premium, but that also means they need to get licensed out for music along with the character, so it is more beneficial to Square instead of a regular costume.

And the copyright takedowns on the two songs...? If that was done by SE, okay totally understandable, but Nintendo in *NO WAY* has the legal authority to take down those tracks. Square or Shimomura would. Same thing with the Banjo-Kazooie and MEGALOVANIA songs. Unless those were just red herrings, in which case, Nintendo unjustly did copyright takedowns on something they do not in any way have the rights to do.

Songs have very likely been discussed and licensed. It's just a matter of the costume being upgraded with 2 songs, which I just do not see happening, or he's coming as playable with those 2 songs (and possibly more).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You're getting so caught up in semantics and moveset potential that you completely missed my primary argument of adding more versions of a pre-existing character. I never said she'd have to play like Shiek, nor do I even care how you imagine she'd play. Nor do I care whether her moveset were 100% original or straight-up cloned. At the end of the day, we don't need another Link or Zelda (or Samus, Mario, or any other character that we already have more than one of). Not when we have 6 slots left for something new and completely original. Again, I don't have so much an issue with BotW Zelda as much as the fact that people are clamoring over a character that they frankly don't know much about (as far as BotW 2 is concerned) or that would offer little in the way of something wholly new. It's obvious that your bias towards her and if that's your cup of tea, knock yourself out. I've spoken my peace so let's move on.

I actually don't want her at all. I just don't see a lack of merits or why she's popular.

Nor is "need" really an argument, and it's honestly a really bad one. There is no such thing as a needed character, and quite a few are throw out as not happening that should be in as playable and much deserving. We don't need half of the characters in the game.

You completely wrote her off with very incorrect information and I called you out on how bad it is. You made points like the Sheik one and I outright dismantled how little it makes sense.

You just simply didn't make a good point against her. You don't want her and that's fine. You don't need to go into wild theories of why she somehow is impossible to get in. Yes, people voting for her clearly are blindly voting when it comes to how the moveset will work. But they don't care about the moveset that much. Many people want a character because they like them.

Also, give me all the "versions" of another character as you can. They're all possible to be unique and frankly great for the game. It's in fact one of the reasons I love Smash, because movesets matter, not if it's the "same" person(but different characters, technically).

And the copyright takedowns on the two songs...? If that was done by SE, okay totally understandable, but Nintendo in *NO WAY* has the legal authority to take down those tracks. Square or Shimomura would. Same thing with the Banjo-Kazooie and MEGALOVANIA songs.

Unless those were just red herrings, in which case, Nintendo unjustly did copyright takedowns on something they do not in any way have the rights to do.

Those were never brought up in what I replied to, so they weren't relevant to what I was talking about. Those actually are good points. Though to be fair... doesn't that more suggest a Premium Costume is possible? I mean, I still lead towards him being playable right now, but it could be another port or SE and Nintendo agreed to have it removed. There's a lot of crazy behind the scene stuff that I'm skeptical of how much stuff these things mean. That said, I do think that this is the most likely reason for him to be playable right now.

Also, it's worth noting that Youtube are idiots and don't care who the copyright owner is or how accurate it is. If a company talks to them, they remove it anyway. They are that fearful of any lawsuits, etc. Fake Nintendo people can easily make copyright claims and they'll listen. It's sucky, but that's what it is. Also, it's probably because "Oh, hey, it's a Mario game. Nintendo is saying to take it down? We're going to listen cause they own Mario itself". So even if they weren't complete idiots... it's fairly clear it's easy for some to make that mistake. Some people still think Geno is owned by Nintendo, after all.

 

[JarBear]

FP6 in hopes -
First Choice: Geno
Second Choice: Waluigi*
Third: Not another FE rep.

Fighter's Pass One opened the door for ANYONE is fair game to be on Smash with Joker. Literally not on people's radars since Persona series hasn't been on a Nintendo Platform.

So for Fighter's Pass Two, we need that same excitement or wonder. Having "another" third party character wouldn't jump start the next discussion/speculation as much as Joker did since they've "already done that." So having a Promoted character, be it from a Mii costume, Assist Trophy or Spirit would deliver like Joker did.

 

[Polarthief]

Though to be fair... doesn't that more suggest a Premium Costume is possible?

So now we're discussing the possibility of two songs for a premium costume? >_>;

Also, it's worth noting that Youtube are idiots and don't care who the copyright owner is or how accurate it is. If a company talks to them, they remove it anyway.

I totally get that, but Nintendo wouldn't just do a takedown like that, considering this is after they've changed their stance on LPs and music and stuff.


Also regarding who actually owns the songs, is it SE or the original composer? If the former, that will suck massively, but if it's the latter, well, Uematsu and Sugiyama are kinda ****ty people, while Shimomura doesn't seem to be, which could mean more than just the two songs are coming, pointing further away from the idea of a premium costume upgrade.

All in all, I just want the confirmation already. I don't see why Geno's Sm4sh costume would be delayed to FP2 when they didn't even know FP2 was gonna be a thing when first making FP1; they didn't plan for it to happen, but I'm sure they realized there was a list of characters leftover. If Geno wasn't discussed *at all* for FP1, they could have just slapped his costume in with Hero, and even released him as playable in FP2. But the fact that his costume is still AWOL is pretty big, alongside the copyright takedown tracks being 2 instead of just 1.

FP6 in hopes -
First Choice: Geno
Second Choice: Waluigi*
Third: Not another FE rep.

Fighter's Pass One opened the door for ANYONE is fair game to be on Smash with Joker. Literally not on people's radars since Persona series hasn't been on a Nintendo Platform.

So for Fighter's Pass Two, we need that same excitement or wonder. Having "another" third party character wouldn't jump start the next discussion/speculation as much as Joker did since they've "already done that." So having a Promoted character, be it from a Mii costume, Assist Trophy or Spirit would deliver like Joker did.

Yeah I've been saying this for pretty much all of 2020 so far, and do agree with everything you've said. Even though I don't really care if Wah is in or not, he would make an excellent discussion point for future speculation as there's no more "deconfirmed" besides "must have originally been a video game character", as Sakurai himself has said this (though that could be ignored for Smash 6? but this is Ultimate, not 6).

 

[TooManyToastahs]

I am enjoying the back and forth’s on Geno’s chances that users like Verde Coeden Scalesworth , pinshadow , Polarthief , and several others are discussing.

It’s healthy for the thread to engage in these kinds of debates since it allows us to take a step back and see just how likely Geno is from both sides of the argument. I would give my opinions on the situation however many of you guys have already said my exact feelings already.

... I feel like I’m sounding a bit pretentious. I like these kinds of debates, they both bolster my hopes for Geno to get in Smash but also ground my expectations a little.

anyways geno for smash babey!!!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So now we're discussing the possibility of two songs for a premium costume? >_>;

Maybe? I can see it happen. It's a new idea and we only have two instances to go off of. We don't have a consistent Mii Costume pattern to begin with either. I mean, didn't we get the Cuphead costume(who relates to Microsoft) with Byleth, not Banjo? I don't think there's a pattern at all.

I totally get that, but Nintendo wouldn't just do a takedown like that, considering this is after they've changed their stance on LPs and music and stuff.

It's why I think it relates to Smash in the first place. Since the companies are cooperating for Smash, Nintendo can easily speak up to remove it since it's going to be used.

Also regarding who actually owns the songs, is it SE or the original composer? If the former, that will suck massively, but if it's the latter, well, Uematsu and Sugiyama are kinda ****ty people, while Shimomura doesn't seem to be, which could mean more than just the two songs are coming, pointing further away from the idea of a premium costume upgrade.

All in all, I just want the confirmation already. I don't see why Geno's Sm4sh costume would be delayed to FP2 when they didn't even know FP2 was gonna be a thing when first making FP1; they didn't plan for it to happen, but I'm sure they realized there was a list of characters leftover. If Geno wasn't discussed *at all* for FP1, they could have just slapped his costume in with Hero, and even released him as playable in FP2. But the fact that his costume is still AWOL is pretty big, alongside the copyright takedown tracks being 2 instead of just 1.

I don't remember who owns the songs. It's a weird situation. In fact, are we sure it's Nintendo or is it someone posing as Nintendo that took them down? It's pretty damn easy to fool Youtube. A troll could've done it, and we've seen some pretty nasty trolls here...

To be clear, it's because the costume's release also depends upon when SE says it's okay to release. FP2 was likely decided quite early, as we know the Hero directs and the rest were recorded around the same time. If Geno's costume was moved, it'd be in time for that as is. So it's possible for the timing to work out. Of course, this is completely assuming it's ever coming back(regardless of playable Geno or not). In fact, if Geno isn't playable and it's missing, which would suck, it'd only show licensing wasn't as simple as people keep saying. ...Let's hope it doesn't come to the worst scenario to show people the truth of how licensing works, agreed? I know I sound a bit like a debbie downer, but I really want Geno to be playable or at least a costume at bare minimum either way. I think it's clear to many that he's not a personal pick of mine(I do like him as an idea and support him, don't get me wrong. Just not my top list. Albeit, my top list also is more controlled since while I don't believe Spirits disconfirm, it was still fun making a list with that in mind).

 

[Firox]

I actually don't want her at all. I just don't see a lack of merits or why she's popular.

Nor is "need" really an argument, and it's honestly a really bad one. There is no such thing as a needed character, and quite a few are throw out as not happening that should be in as playable and much deserving. We don't need half of the characters in the game.

Holy hell, you really do love to get lost in worthless semantics, don't you? The word "need" wasn't implying that I or anyone else "has" to have a certain character in the game. The entire point of my post was to illustrate why her apparent popularity was in poor taste due to its lack of originality and the fact that her moveset would have to be shoehorned into the game since her appearance in BotW did not depict any kind of combat capability. You didn't offer any valid counter points to this and instead offered your theoretical views of what she COULD be like.

You completely wrote her off with very incorrect information and I called you out on how bad it is. You made points like the Sheik one and I outright dismantled how little it makes sense.

The Sheik comment I made was a light illustration of how uninspired her moveset would be if it was confined to physical only. Lol You didn't "dismantle" anything. You went into a pathetic rant about how non-ninja like BotW Zelda was despite the fact that I wasn't trying to argue that in the first place. The point is that a human girl with no magic or iconic weaponry to speak of makes for a boring fighter at best.

You just simply didn't make a good point against her. You don't want her and that's fine. You don't need to go into wild theories of why she somehow is impossible to get in. Yes, people voting for her clearly are blindly voting when it comes to how the moveset will work. But they don't care about the moveset that much. Many people want a character because they like them.

My posts weren't "wild theories of why she somehow is impossible to get in". If you actually READ them, you would have seen that it was a critique about why such an inclusion would be in poor taste and blindly biased toward LoZ, which you apparently agree with. I never said she COULDN'T get in. I was proposing that she SHOULDN'T.[/QUOTE]

Also, give me all the "versions" of another character as you can. They're all possible to be unique and frankly great for the game. It's in fact one of the reasons I love Smash, because movesets matter, not if it's the "same" person(but different characters, technically).

While I agree that movesets are more important than whether it's the "same" character, wouldn't it be better to have both an original moveset AND an original character? I don't know about you, but I'd rather have Geno, Crash, Master Chief, Dante, etc. etc. etc. etc. than another 5 Marios no matter how unique they may be.

 

[Powerman293]

I put out a video yesterday where I talk about if I think about if from Square Enix's perspective would it be worth it to put him in Smash. The conclusion I came to was, for them, yes it would be worth it. Just due not using him for so long, I think Square Enix would be fine letting him in since it's not gonna affect one of their "core brands".

 

[Nicnac]

Can we drop the BOTW 2 Zelda discussion? It's the Geno thread, not the general discussion thread, come on guys.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

While I agree that movesets are more important than whether it's the "same" character, wouldn't it be better to have both an original moveset AND an original character? I don't know about you, but I'd rather have Geno, Crash, Master Chief, Dante, etc. etc. etc. etc. than another 5 Marios no matter how unique they may be.

I see no serious difference whatsoever at all.

A unique moveset and a unique depiction of the character amount to the same to me. I don't have any hatred towards "same person" at all and never did. I welcome them because they're fun interpretations. I've been wanting Toon Ganondorf for a while now, as he's the only canon Sworddorf who actually is plausible. OOT one doesn't use a sword, and TP one is about brute strength, not finesse, the sword type used. He feels less canon than before, though still neat.

I'm going to leave it at that, then.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Gotta keep us guessing. And second guessing.

And going insane.

To be fair no one could stop me from going insane. Wait...has that been because I've been a Nintendo fanboy all this time?

 

[Deleted member]

I wish mystery costumes come back in Mario Maker 2 that if Geno gets into Smash, they could definitely have him there.

 

[Firox]

So does anyone know what the typical cut-off time would be for a Direct announcement tomorrow? I just want to know how long I need to hold out hope.

 

[Loliko YnT]

lol I do find it kind of sad how fast Mallow became obsolete in SMRPG after you get Peach.

I hate how useless Mallow feels except groups of enemies weak against ice/electricity. Geno covers single-target ice (Geno Beam) and just has generally better magic; it's really sad. He could have been a viable alternative if he had like HP Shower (heals the whole party), also if both healing spells also recovered status effects.

... also Bowser, lol.

Tbh , I still feel like Mallow should at least be more durable than Peach. In my first playthrough , as long as I chosed my level up bonuses cleverly , she had way much more HPs than Mallow , and her armor was enough to tank a bit. Mallow is in this weird middle , where he's kind of tanky , but not enough for what he offer.

As to Bowser , if you could remove Mario from the party , he could actually work with Geno + Mallow/Peach. Geno boost give him a very strong base attack , and allow him to tank way better , and he's not a magic focused character , so he won't waste FPs. And then , Mallow and Peach act as support , with one acting more defensively , and the other allowing to still put nice damage with Shocker , and kill group of ennemies with less FPs than Geno blast.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So does anyone know what the typical cut-off time would be for a Direct announcement tomorrow? I just want to know how long I need to hold out hope.

From what I hear it could still be announced super late as is. I think around 10 AM my time is typically when the last announcements come up. It's about 3 PM right now for me, if it helps. I suck at timezones.

I wish mystery costumes come back in Mario Maker 2 that if Geno gets into Smash, they could definitely have him there.

Thank you, yes. Seriously, give us some Mystery Costume DLC. You don't need to put all costumes back, sure. I get it. Licensing is difficult. In fact, I bet licensing was why they were all removed. You can't just lose Pac-Man, Sonic, etc. either. They're huge selling points.

...The lack of any updates on it sucks, though. It's an improved game, don't get me wrong, but it feels shallow. It's not a huge updated game like FFVIIr, which really tried to make it feel unique but not alienate fans(classic battle is actually there for those who are used to the original and don't prefer action rpg's as much).

Tbh , I still feel like Mallow should at least be more durable than Peach. In my first playthrough , as long as I chosed my level up bonuses cleverly , she had way much more HPs than Mallow , and her armor was enough to tank a bit. Mallow is in this weird middle , where he's kind of tanky , but not enough for what he offer.

As to Bowser , if you could remove Mario from the party , he could actually work with Geno + Mallow/Peach. Geno boost give him a very strong base attack , and allow him to tank way better , and he's not a magic focused character , so he won't waste FPs. And then , Mallow and Peach act as support , with one acting more defensively , and the other allowing to still put nice damage with Shocker , and kill group of ennemies with less FPs than Geno blast.

Mallow is like the Red Mage. Can do all, but specializes in nothing. Problem is he's not entirely that and feels more like a cross between a Battle Mage and a Cleric. Though I think Healer is meant to be "no real armor/weapon capability" instead, which fits Peach best. Geno comes off closer to a Battle Mage too, being strong physically.

I think the issue is it feels like the characters aren't that balanced. We only have Mario and Bowser as physical attackers overall. The rest are all casters. Geno is way too weak for his role as a Cleric, and Peach was given too high of a defense for a Healer. Buff up Mallow's defense, and that should fix it up a bit, imo. I feel the rest isn't too bad. Peach can still get walloped in the game anyway, unless you have the Lazy Shell, and sometimes that's not enough(...Culex and Smithy).

Bowser I really like, and his magic is... interesting, but not too good(and also hard to do, especially on keyboard). Worst part is that the Paper Mario games didn't do any better in balancing out partners. The first two games clearly had some way better. In fact, the second game felt like it had worse characters too balance-wise(though they were more fleshed out personality-wise in return).

 

[MattX20]

So does anyone know what the typical cut-off time would be for a Direct announcement tomorrow? I just want to know how long I need to hold out hope.

Given how unpredictable Nintendo's announcements for Directs have been as of late, they can happen into the late afternoon also. Tomorrow afternoon is the last possible opportunity for a general direct announcement before we go into April

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Given how unpredictable Nintendo's announcements for Directs have been as of late, they can happen into the late afternoon also. Tomorrow afternoon is the last possible opportunity for a general direct announcement before we go into April

So, when was the last time a Direct was announced late afternoon, if I may ask?

 

[Firox]

Given how unpredictable Nintendo's announcements for Directs have been as of late, they can happen into the late afternoon also. Tomorrow afternoon is the last possible opportunity for a general direct announcement before we go into April

Oh, yeah, I forgot that this is the last full week of March. Holy cow, this month vaporized so quickly. April's practically already here!

 

[Deleted member]

So, when was the last time a Direct was announced late afternoon, if I may ask?

Animal Crossing direct at 5 pm eastern.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Animal Crossing direct at 5 pm eastern.

Okay, I meant a General Direct.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, I meant a General Direct.

Hmm, I don't know about that one. General directs are usually never announced in the afternoon from what I remember.

 

[Polarthief]

As to Bowser , if you could remove Mario from the party , he could actually work with Geno + Mallow/Peach.

Oh I'd do that in a heartbeat. I also wish his spells were modified to better suit his kit and characters. I like that he has two status effects; Terrorize fits perfectly for sure (Poison Gas not as much but hey it's a statis effect so whatever). I'd give him 2 additional spells: A taunt because he absolutely should have one; he taunts Mario relentlessly in other games and he's definitely the "tank" of the group. I also think he should get a self-heal as that'd further push his tank status.

I'd also make 2 more changes: Crusher and Bowser Crush (and the self-heal to keep it useful) would use his Attack, instead of Magic Attack, for damage calculation. The spells would still target Magic Defense, but because his Magic Attack is pitiful, these spells do not make *any* sense. I'd also do this to Mario's Jump (and Super/Ultra Jumps) as anything "physical" shouldn't be using Magic for calculation.

As for Mallow, if you go by "traditional" RPG standards, DPS Mages are generally more frail than Support/Healing Mages, so that makes sense. That said, I would boost his Magic damage way higher, past Geno, since Geno actually physically attacks quite well and can take a better beating.
Basically how I would do it:
- Mario: Fighter with decentish Magic (like an Eldritch Knight in D&D)
- Mallow: Wizard/Black Mage. Frail as crap but should deal devastating magic damage. For the sake of balancing in a JRPG with limited party members, I would probably still give him heals, albeit weaker ones than Peach.
- Geno: <insert your choice of "all-around fighter+magic" class here>. I'd personally say "Red Mage without healing". Geno does it all. Isn't the best at anything, but he can take a hit (he's no wimp), and can deal both physical and magical damage quite well.
- Bowser: "Barbarian" or whatever is your "all brawn, no brains" class, with the best armor and a big ****-off axe.
- Peach: Cleric/Priest/White Mage. Great Magic, worse than Mallow's, focusing on healing/support, and still frail but not like Mallow.