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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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Fatmanonice

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https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1237550841529126912/

Ring Fit's out of the running, looks like we likely won't get more promo 1st party picks.
People really do need to stop worrying about "shill picks." These are the last six characters and Sakurai recently doubled down on their significance. Nintendo did a pretty great job with the Fighter's Pass considering most of the characters weren't super wanted; imagine what Nintendo can do with a DLC season focused on fan requests? I think that's a takeaway a lot of people don't get. 4 of the 5 characters didn't even crack most top 20 lists and yet think of how many people love those characters now. Again, think of all the energy and effort poured into the Fighter's Pass and start applying that to top 10 requests and you'll see what I'm getting at.
 

Sovereign Trinity

Smash Ace
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Messages
852
Uh-oh, it is looking E3 is gonna be cancelled. Let's hope Nintendo will have some sort of presentation still.
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WOW, that's crazy... For the first time, I had a weird feeling this morning about not wanting to go to E3 this year and instead go next year, and wow what do you know, it's rumored to be cancelled... that is really unfortunate. I went to E3 2019 last year and had a blast, and it made me want to go again this year for E3 2020... what unfortunate timing. Honestly, I think it's for the best since the coronavirus is going around. Health and safety FIRST!

 

Malo Mart

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Hyrule Castle Town
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Nothing against Ring Fit supporters (all of 3 you lol), but I'm pretty ok with that deconfirmation. Not much of a fan of Nintendo pushing a character into Smash before we even had the chance to know them for very long, especially not as DLC. That said I won't mind if a RFA rep gets in the next game, or even better, in a deluxe port of Smash Ultimate later down the line, wink wink nudge nudge

Also no E3 this year? I know it's not confirmed, but I sure hope Nintendo can still air a Direct around June if that's the case. And if it's not, then GE3NO TIME BABY!
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Darn it there goes the Ring Fit Adventurer presentation idea I had where if they got in. Sakurai would be telling us the value of good health and exercise

And reminding us not to skip leg day. While detailing their moves

Darn it... What a sad fate.

Oh well glad they got a Spirit event. I honestly wish they could have shown up.

But think they will maybe in a future game!
 
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Firox

Smash Master
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Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,336
Well, on the upside, we're approximately 3 months off from Nintendo's E3 presentation starting today so, with the way things have been going, we'll actually be waiting less than half the time for E3 than we did this Direct.
Well that's.....depressing. On the upside, my apathy is growing to the point where I'm becoming immune to the passage of time.
 

QQS

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
1,171
Character #76 reveal trailer is over and we’re left on a shot of the stars. We hear “GENO AWAKENS” slowly fade in as a star drops to earth. We see the star fly through many different locations from Mario RPG, until it eventually finds the Geno doll. The doll gets up slowly as we see a glimmering Smash ball in his eyes...

FFDC4EDE-C6A3-452E-A602-74C38AE6F0AF.png
 

HudU

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Looks like Sabi was right, but I was hoping for a sooner direct date. Either way, if an indie direct happens next week, we'll have a good idea of when a normal direct could happen

(quick note though: they DID say that the direct date could change, and the fact that GameXPlain reported on this makes me think this is going a bit public and Nintendo might want to change the date, I hope not though)
 

MonkeyDLenny

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
1,559
Well today was certainly... odd

We're still in the drought but we know Nintendo collaborating with Lego for a Mario line, E3's fate is going to be decided in a matter of hours, Ring Fit is now out of the running for Fighter's Pass 2, and now if we're to believe what we're hearing the Direct will be in another two weeks

Seriously, what even was today
 

Sigran101

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There is always Sylux who is gonna have a big part in MP4. Breath of the Wild 2 character, potential Bayonetta 3 character... Not to mention any potential game that has yet to be announced. Just because Ring Fit most likely is out of the running does not mean that we won¨t get a promo pick.
Don't forget King Boo too. Still no Luigi's Mansion 3 spirits.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,336
Well today was certainly... odd

We're still in the drought but we know Nintendo collaborating with Lego for a Mario line, E3's fate is going to be decided in a matter of hours, Ring Fit is now out of the running for Fighter's Pass 2, and now if we're to believe what we're hearing the Direct will be in another two weeks

Seriously, what even was today
A roller coaster, my friend. A roller coaster...
 

Sovereign Trinity

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 11, 2018
Messages
852
Well today was certainly... odd

We're still in the drought but we know Nintendo collaborating with Lego for a Mario line, E3's fate is going to be decided in a matter of hours, Ring Fit is now out of the running for Fighter's Pass 2, and now if we're to believe what we're hearing the Direct will be in another two weeks
Seriously, what even was today
Today was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get, and we seriously weren't prepared for it.

 

MeteoRain

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BFE
You mean a perfectly reasonable and correct take? That would be Byleth-level bad, probably worse TBH.
I doubt anything could be as poorly received as Byleth. That was simply the worst case scenario at the most inopportune time.

Just imagine how that would have magnified if he was the very final DLC like Corrin in Smash 4.

To think Nintendo thought Dragon Quest needed Banjo to keep western appeal, yet believed Byleth would be aokay as a standalone grand finale. It makes me wonder if they were just deaf, dumb, or wanted to watch the world burn.
 

skydogc

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Well today was certainly... odd

We're still in the drought but we know Nintendo collaborating with Lego for a Mario line, E3's fate is going to be decided in a matter of hours, Ring Fit is now out of the running for Fighter's Pass 2, and now if we're to believe what we're hearing the Direct will be in another two weeks

Seriously, what even was today
Most legal definitions refer to this as "whiplash" I believe.
 

OffBi

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2019
Messages
877
I think that i know the reason as to why we didn't get a general direct.
Nintendo was going to do the usual stuff with directs, first the general one, and then the E3 one.
But, due to the sudden outbreak of the coronavirus, Nintendo saw that E3 was most definitely going to get canceled.
So, now they are thinking:"Man, how do we have a E3 direct WITHOUT E3?"
And thus, an idea popped in their heads.
They would merge both general and E3 directs to create an MAGNUM direct that could potentially be about an hour long (my speculation anyways)
That would explain as to why some insiders say that the direct is going to be like an E3 direct.
So Nintendo didn't delay the direct because of the coronavirus, they delayed it because they wanted to put stuff from the E3 direct in the general one!
 

Icewolff92

Smash Champion
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Messages
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People really do need to stop worrying about "shill picks." These are the last six characters and Sakurai recently doubled down on their significance. Nintendo did a pretty great job with the Fighter's Pass considering most of the characters weren't super wanted; imagine what Nintendo can do with a DLC season focused on fan requests? I think that's a takeaway a lot of people don't get. 4 of the 5 characters didn't even crack most top 20 lists and yet think of how many people love those characters now. Again, think of all the energy and effort poured into the Fighter's Pass and start applying that to top 10 requests and you'll see what I'm getting at.
People said that we would never get a shill pick with wave one due to Corrin's reaction, and especially not a Fire Emblem character.. Then Byleth got revealed months later, promoting the DLC, which I funny enough brought up as a potential scenario during EVO last year.... but whatever.

If Nintendo wants a product placement into the game, then it will be a product-placement in this game. Let¨s remember that Byleth was the one that they were originally gonna end on before the idea of more DLC came to fruition. They are the ones that pay for the game. If they want Urushifu or whatever new Pokemon for the sake of pushing the DLC, Urushifu is getting in. If they want Sylux (who is still mysteriously missing) because Metroid Prime 4, then Sylux will be included in the game. So it is not that weird that people for people to believe that there is a chance for a promotional shill pick. Especially when they are 2 for 2 when it comes to DLC waves including something promotional for their own gain.
 
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Trevenant

Smash Lord
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Messages
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People really do need to stop worrying about "shill picks." These are the last six characters and Sakurai recently doubled down on their significance. Nintendo did a pretty great job with the Fighter's Pass considering most of the characters weren't super wanted; imagine what Nintendo can do with a DLC season focused on fan requests? I think that's a takeaway a lot of people don't get. 4 of the 5 characters didn't even crack most top 20 lists and yet think of how many people love those characters now. Again, think of all the energy and effort poured into the Fighter's Pass and start applying that to top 10 requests and you'll see what I'm getting at.
Imo I think it’s likely we get some kind of promotional pick. The last fighters pass had some pretty good decision making.

The first character revealed was the one no one expected but who got people invested, second was a long running series with no presence in smash when it should have had some, third was a fan favourite, fourth was a fairly small name from non represented company but still a fairly large one and 5th was the inevitable shill.

Even when Sakurai makes the decisions we usually get at least one character who is added as more of a promotional pick. From a business standpoint it also makes more sense as it means they get profits from the dlc and the game which is usually $60 or so. Nintendo picking the DLC make it seem more likely as they have been
at the forefront of deciding shills in every wave so far with Corrin and Byleth.

I don’t really want to be that guy but we probably shouldn’t completely rule off a promotional character. Even though this is probably the last DLC for ultimate smash 4 dlc didn’t really end too well despite the fact that it was the last and that also included a shill I just mentioned, Corrin. From the evidence it seems really likely
 
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skydogc

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WITHOUT E3?"
Geno thread! Smash ult, no gimmicks!

Two Nintendo games go round the outside, round the outside, round the outside.
Two Nintendo games go round the outside, round the outside, round the outside.

Guess what's gone?
Gone real soon.
E3's gone.
Not this June.
Guess what's gone?
Guess what's gone?
Guess what's gone?
Guess what's gone?
Guess what's gone?
Guess what's gone?
Guess what's gone?

We've created a fighter,
Cause we all wanna see Directs right now
We want Geno, our star hero.
A little bit of news, more than's on twitter!
Some uproar that'll start our hearts quicker
Than some Indies when a Direct won't trigger
By Nintendo when we're here just waiting
Cause announcement silence is so frustrating.

Na na na nana
Na na na naaaa.

I think my lack of sleep has gotten to me.
 

protoblues

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Messages
43
People really do need to stop worrying about "shill picks." These are the last six characters and Sakurai recently doubled down on their significance. Nintendo did a pretty great job with the Fighter's Pass considering most of the characters weren't super wanted; imagine what Nintendo can do with a DLC season focused on fan requests? I think that's a takeaway a lot of people don't get. 4 of the 5 characters didn't even crack most top 20 lists and yet think of how many people love those characters now. Again, think of all the energy and effort poured into the Fighter's Pass and start applying that to top 10 requests and you'll see what I'm getting at.
I don't see how these go together. You're saying not to think about "shill" picks (hate that term) but you're also saying 4/5 of the characters weren't even in the top 20 of fan requests...?

Frankly I think both those things should be considered. Nintendo and their partners want to maximize profit. Tools to do that include generating fan excitement, bringing new content to Switch , or promoting upcoming content.

I've been thinking a lot about how Nintendo and SE could both get the most out of Geno being released on Smash, and I had an idea that I think works pretty well: DLC for an upcoming Paper Mario. As an example, say the next Paper Mario game has partners like TTYD. Geno could be an optional partner available free on release but otherwise costing $4 - $6. This would be a pretty easy undertaking compared to adding Geno in Smash. Square would keep 100% of profits from the Paper Mario DLC sales, and Nintendo would be able to promote sales of the game by using Geno in the trailer and with the launch window promotion of Geno being free for a limited time. This is free money in Square's pocket, while the cost of extra development for Intelligent Systems would be more than recouped by the marketing value.
 

Polarthief

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,812
Good morning, Genobros! Aside from the E3 thing, what’s up?
I'm just dreading the very real possibility that we're looking at another 2 weeks (and 1 day) of waiting for this direct. Even worse, there could be a nindies direct before it (that's THREE non-general directs and a Sakurai stream all before this general direct) which just feels like more teasing from Nintendo.

I really hope it's all wrong and we get an announcement today but man I'm gonna be depressed for the next 2 weeks if it's true. It's unbelievable how far back this direct has been pushed, whether by conscious choice, because of CorneaViroos (which I still doubt), or something else, I'm just annoyed at how many times the goalpost has been pushed; nearly as many times as the arguments against Geno kept pushing his own.

I've been thinking a lot about how Nintendo and SE could both get the most out of Geno being released on Smash, and I had an idea that I think works pretty well: DLC for an upcoming Paper Mario. As an example, say the next Paper Mario game has partners like TTYD. Geno could be an optional partner available free on release but otherwise costing $4 - $6. This would be a pretty easy undertaking compared to adding Geno in Smash. Square would keep 100% of profits from the Paper Mario DLC sales, and Nintendo would be able to promote sales of the game by using Geno in the trailer and with the launch window promotion of Geno being free for a limited time. This is free money in Square's pocket, while the cost of extra development for Intelligent Systems would be more than recouped by the marketing value.
I really hope this doesn't happen. Geno's very story-driven and being added in as a DLC partner feels like nothing more than trying to get some extra bucks out of us. Even if he's free, this isn't how I'd want to see him in a new game after 24 years. A cameo in M&L:SS is one thing, but playable for no real story reason would feel so awkward (except for Smash obs, since there's no real story reasoning for why 80+ characters are battling in the game).


Also in other news, I finally found the HTML update source for anyone who cares. Doesn't mean as much now but the update was on the 2nd:


There was also another update 4 days later, on the 6th:

(the MEDIA thing didn't show pictures, so I linked to the tweets and manually put the pictures in)
 
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Spatulo

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Ring Fit is finally getting spirits after 6 months, eh? Seems to me that this only leaves a certain 6 million + plus selling Nintendo game from last year, doesn't it?
E GADD CLEANS UP
KING BOO FLOATS IN
Or, if I allow myself to dream
IT’S WALUIGI TIME
 

protoblues

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
43
I really hope this doesn't happen. Geno's very story-driven and being added in as a DLC partner feels like nothing more than trying to get some extra bucks out of us. Even if he's free, this isn't how I'd want to see him in a new game after 24 years. A cameo in M&L:SS is one thing, but playable for no real story reason would feel so awkward (except for Smash obs, since there's no real story reasoning for why 80+ characters are battling in the game).
Would you really be unhappy to see Geno in Smash *and* Paper Mario as a playable character? I get that this isn't as cool as seeing Geno as like, a main character in a new game. But this feels more plausible than those alternatives.

Making Geno a main character in the next Paper Mario would require paying Square a fat licensing fee and taking away creative agency from Intelligent Systems... I'm really uncertain about it being workable.

If Square wanted to make more Mario RPG games, that would be fantastic -- and would fully capture the value of Geno's inclusion. I think business case exists for SMRPG 2, but it's a huge undertaking and developing a brand new game as a result of Smash negotiations is wild.

There needs to be a good profit motive for the companies. Otherwise, why choose Geno over say, 2B? 2B has enough fan support and Platinum knows Switch hardware--they would happily make Nier: Automata Special Edition for the guaranteed sales they'd get from Smash promotion. You have to compete with that kind of opportunity cost.

I think Paper Mario DLC, together with a higher-priced amiibo with special features and the incredible response Geno's return would generate, carves out a path for Nintendo and SE to make good money on Geno. And I'm 100% for whatever path gets Geno into Smash Ultimate.
 

RetrogamerMax

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I think that i know the reason as to why we didn't get a general direct.
Nintendo was going to do the usual stuff with directs, first the general one, and then the E3 one.
But, due to the sudden outbreak of the coronavirus, Nintendo saw that E3 was most definitely going to get canceled.
So, now they are thinking:"Man, how do we have a E3 direct WITHOUT E3?"
And thus, an idea popped in their heads.
They would merge both general and E3 directs to create an MAGNUM direct that could potentially be about an hour long (my speculation anyways)
That would explain as to why some insiders say that the direct is going to be like an E3 direct.
So Nintendo didn't delay the direct because of the coronavirus, they delayed it because they wanted to put stuff from the E3 direct in the general one!
Please God in heaven let this be the case.

Let¨s remember that Byleth was the one that they were originally gonna end on before the idea of more DLC came to fruition.
If you believe that you should know someone else was originally suppose to be FP5/75# and Nintendo wanted Sakurai to switch it out with Byleth due to the timing and promotional reasons I believe according to Fatmanonice Fatmanonice .
 
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Antho

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 30, 2019
Messages
129
Would you really be unhappy to see Geno in Smash *and* Paper Mario as a playable character? I get that this isn't as cool as seeing Geno as like, a main character in a new game. But this feels more plausible than those alternatives.

Making Geno a main character in the next Paper Mario would require paying Square a fat licensing fee and taking away creative agency from Intelligent Systems... I'm really uncertain about it being workable.

If Square wanted to make more Mario RPG games, that would be fantastic -- and would fully capture the value of Geno's inclusion. I think business case exists for SMRPG 2, but it's a huge undertaking and developing a brand new game as a result of Smash negotiations is wild.

There needs to be a good profit motive for the companies. Otherwise, why choose Geno over say, 2B? 2B has enough fan support and Platinum knows Switch hardware--they would happily make Nier: Automata Special Edition for the guaranteed sales they'd get from Smash promotion. You have to compete with that kind of opportunity cost.

I think Paper Mario DLC, together with a higher-priced amiibo with special features and the incredible response Geno's return would generate, carves out a path for Nintendo and SE to make good money on Geno. And I'm 100% for whatever path gets Geno into Smash Ultimate.
They wouldn’t really need to make a profit off of Geno other than Smash, although I would like something like an SMRPG remake or Geno in more games, Joker got a spinoff game that’s only out in one region so far. Hero coincided with the Switch port of DQ11. Banjo and Terry got almost nothing at all, and Byleth was... Byleth. When Smash 4 happened and we got Cloud we didn’t even get any version of FF7 until 4 years later on an entirely different console. I think Square would be pretty happy with a $6 character and a bunch of mii costumes because that’d get them enough revenue along with Hero and the mii costumes that he came with already.
 
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Polarthief

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
1,812
Would you really be unhappy to see Geno in Smash *and* Paper Mario as a playable character?
Smash, obviously not or I wouldn't be here. Paper Mario? No I wouldn't. Paper Mario as a DLC with no actual ties to the story? Yes, I would.

Making Geno a main character in the next Paper Mario would require paying Square a fat licensing fee and taking away creative agency from Intelligent Systems... I'm really uncertain about it being workable.
Exactly, and I'd rather not have him in as a "pay Square money to get your character appearing here", because that just means he'll be popping up for no reason. If Geno's not gonna be a main character from the start, I'd rather keep him to just spin-off titles (like how Waluigi is treated, but he's still not playable in Smash and still has no real character/personality).

If Square wanted to make more Mario RPG games, that would be fantastic -- and would fully capture the value of Geno's inclusion. I think business case exists for SMRPG 2, but it's a huge undertaking and developing a brand new game as a result of Smash negotiations is wild.
For sure and I don't deny that. I just think sticking him in as a Paper Mario DLC seems silly. As silly as making him a cameo in M&L: SS? Kinda, yeah. It wouldn't have mattered if he was in or not. That didn't change my enjoyment of the game in any way, especially because I didn't have to pay extra for him later down the road if I didn't pre-order the game.

There needs to be a good profit motive for the companies. Otherwise, why choose Geno over say, 2B? 2B has enough fan support and Platinum knows Switch hardware--they would happily make Nier: Automata Special Edition for the guaranteed sales they'd get from Smash promotion. You have to compete with that kind of opportunity cost.
Does she in the West? She's also still relatively new (she's only in the 2017 title, right? I don't know the series at all) while Geno has a long legacy despite only being in one game 24 years ago, a legacy within Smash and its community as well, alongside Sakurai himself. Also I'm sure I don't need to bring up the evidence...
Also and I probably should have led with this, tell me why Banjo-Kazooie got picked over, say, Master Chief or Steve then? How profitable was BK exactly considering their advertisement is a game that's not only unavailable on the Switch or any relevant Nintendo console (N64 is hardly relevant in 2019 unless the N64 Classic came out and I was completely unaware of it), but only available on the 360/X1? You know as well as I do that the profits that they brought in was probably nonexistent besides people who bought DLC Pack 3/FP1. MC would have likely been infinitely more profitable and they'd have more advertising for the upcoming Halo game in 2020. BK has an Amiibo coming out and a few pieces of merchandise. MC has *PLENTY* of games, merchandise, would have an Amiibo if he came instead, etc. People also arren't going to buy an X1 for Rare Replay, but they absolutely would for Halo.

I think Paper Mario DLC, together with a higher-priced amiibo with special features and the incredible response Geno's return would generate, carves out a path for Nintendo and SE to make good money on Geno. And I'm 100% for whatever path gets Geno into Smash Ultimate.
Could always start putting Square games on NSO like everyone's been requesting. That alone could increase sales of NSO while also explaining to everyone where Geno is from in an easier method than "go buy a SNES Classic that we don't officially sell anymore".
Or maybe a remake of SMRPG as well; that'd be a nice profitable venture as we could use more RPGs on the Switch.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
I doubt anything could be as poorly received as Byleth. That was simply the worst case scenario at the most inopportune time.

Just imagine how that would have magnified if he was the very final DLC like Corrin in Smash 4.

To think Nintendo thought Dragon Quest needed Banjo to keep western appeal, yet believed Byleth would be aokay as a standalone grand finale. It makes me wonder if they were just deaf, dumb, or wanted to watch the world burn.
Not to toot my own horn here too much, but it's almost like I was right when I said there was no "balance" to be achieved. The double reveal was simply because it was E3 and they were relatively far along on both characters. If Banjo had been in Joker's state when Joker was shown off, they would have left us on Hero.

People said that we would never get a shill pick with wave one due to Corrin's reaction, and especially not a Fire Emblem character.. Then Byleth got revealed months later, promoting the DLC, which I funny enough brought up as a potential scenario during EVO last year.... but whatever.

If Nintendo wants a product placement into the game, then it will be a product-placement in this game. Let¨s remember that Byleth was the one that they were originally gonna end on before the idea of more DLC came to fruition. They are the ones that pay for the game. If they want Urushifu or whatever new Pokemon for the sake of pushing the DLC, Urushifu is getting in. If they want Sylux (who is still mysteriously missing) because Metroid Prime 4, then Sylux will be included in the game. So it is not that weird that people for people to believe that there is a chance for a promotional shill pick. Especially when they are 2 for 2 when it comes to DLC waves including something promotional for their own gain.
Shill picks are only bad when it's a Fire Emblem character, if we're being honest. No one even tries to assert that characters like Inkling or Isabelle are shill picks, when it's almost undeniable that they are when a little thought is put into it. I don't even think a Pokemon pick would go over poorly because outside of Pikachu and Pichu, the diversity of Pokemon reps is outstanding and the potential for even more diverse movesets from that franchise is high (of course, the potential for Fire Emblem movesets is high, but here we are...). More importantly, shill picks can be fan picks, and that's what we see in Isabelle and Inkling. People might not be totally down with Sylux specifically, but people would be down with a Metroid rep that isn't Samus in a different outfit.
 

kiteinthesky

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
902
So, about these rumors that E3 is going to be cancelled on account of the corona virus...

I greatly fear that the panic surrounding the corona virus will compel us to continue doing things like shutting down major events, isolating ourselves from each other, shutting down the economy, which will do little to prevent the spread of the virus given it has a long incubation period and has already spread around for months, and will ultimately hurt us all in the long run. What's going to happen when the pandemic lasts for months and months and we're *still* shutting down every major event and a lot of what were once voluntary measures become enforced, possibly by law? What happens when major dev studios crash and burn because of this?

We seriously need to have a talk about this and band together as the gaming community and push for real change to deal with stuff like the corona virus in ways that are not Draconian, like pushing for mass testing, free health insurance in the U.S., etc.
 

RetrogamerMax

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I feel like Nintendo specifically NoJ is really trying to push Fire Emblem hard not just as a successful franchise in the west, but as one of their biggest brands next to Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, DK, and Animal Crossing. Fire Emblem will never reach the heights of those franchises and Nintendo trying to do this is like trying to move a boulder. 8 Fire Emblem reps in Smash is proof of this.
 
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TheCJBrine

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
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New World, Minecraft
Making Geno a main character in the next Paper Mario would require paying Square a fat licensing fee and taking away creative agency from Intelligent Systems... I'm really uncertain about it being workable.
Are we sure that would actually happen? They would need to pay Square whatever amount of money for Geno, yes, and maybe have his creator advise how he should be written (character/personality-wise) if he still works at SE, same with Mallow if he’s in, but I don’t think they’d necessarily be taking the majority of creative stuff away from IS.
 

Icewolff92

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,620
If you believe that you should know someone else was originally suppose to be FP5/75# and Nintendo wanted Sakurai to switch it out with Byleth due to the timing and promotional reasons I believe according to Fatmanonice Fatmanonice
Sorry but no... the fact that people still believe this is just... excuse my language but pathetic. Heck, Jon from Gamxplain has said the same thing. Calling that theory pathetic. They chose those characters prematurely before the second wave was even planned, and Sakurai got an EARLY copy of the game... Was he a last-minute switch, then Sakurai would not have needed to be given one. Yes, it is disappointing to belive that Nintendo wanted the first end on a promotional note, but that¨s facts.
 

Fatmanonice

Banned via Warnings
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So, about these rumors that E3 is going to be cancelled on account of the corona virus...

I greatly fear that the panic surrounding the corona virus will compel us to continue doing things like shutting down major events, isolating ourselves from each other, shutting down the economy, which will do little to prevent the spread of the virus given it has a long incubation period and has already spread around for months, and will ultimately hurt us all in the long run. What's going to happen when the pandemic lasts for months and months and we're *still* shutting down every major event and a lot of what were once voluntary measures become enforced, possibly by law? What happens when major dev studios crash and burn because of this?

We seriously need to have a talk about this and band together as the gaming community and push for real change to deal with stuff like the corona virus in ways that are not Draconian, like pushing for mass testing, free health insurance in the U.S., etc.
I appreciate the sentiment but the US is hard pushing Diet Pepsi personified for president so, true to American nature, nothing major is going to happen until the bottom falls out.
 

Polarthief

Smash Lord
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I feel like Nintendo specifically NoJ is really trying to push Fire Emblem hard not just as a successful franchise in the west, but as one of their biggest brands next to Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, DK, and Animal Crossing. Fire Emblem will never reach the heights of those franchises and Nintendo trying to do this is like trying to move a boulder. 8 Fire Emblem reps in Smash is proof of this.
Push as much as you want, it's just not going to happen. Good luck coming close to Mario and Zelda, let alone Pokemon. AC is a very casual game (as I advertised it to my mother, "it's a game you cannot lose or play wrong") which is what makes it a huge hit with everyone to just chill with.

FE has a ridiculously large-yet-forgettable cast that fall into groups and usually cliches. Byleth is one of the most bland and boring primary silent protags (I'd honestly have been happier having virtually any other character from 3H as the Smash pick). On top of that, it's extremely complex for your average gamer, way too complex to ever become huge. Comparing Pokemon to FE because those are the closest comparisons in the series you've given, Pokemon's base game is stupidly easy, like nearly "mash A to win" easy nowadays. It has deeper systems that are a bit more complex, but virtually anyone of any skill level can pick it up and play. Casuals and kids? Easy babbymode gameplay with a ton of cute collectible critters to make your very own team. People who want to be competitive? You've got IVs, EVs, breeding, abilities including hidden ones, a plethora of moves and mons to pick from. People who want a challenging experience but don't want to play online? Well look for other Pokemon games, but some of them are a bit more difficult and offer a nice end-game (not Gen 8!). FE on the other hand, even on Normal Casual mode can still be a huge hassle. There's a ton of different stats, classes, and movement/terrrain to keep track of. Males and females have some exclusive classes from the opposite gender. You need to plan out your pathway early on or you will be at a major disadvantage later. If people die they won't get as much experience or skill, and yes, even on Casual Normal, you can-and-will flounder.

Bottom line is FE will *never* be as popular as the other games because it's not "easy to learn, easy to play, hard to master". When the floor is already very high up instead of the ceiling, it's very hard to get into for many people as they're put off from the difficulty and anti-casualness of the game. If they really wanted people to get into it, they'd make an even easier-than-Normal mode where Casual is also forced on instead of being given the option. The average person (even gamer) is not that great, and if there isn't room for casuals, there isn't room to be a massively successful series.

(also why even mention DK? DK is puny in comparison and doesn't even get 1st party development nowadays. Hell I'd say FE is larger than the DK series at this point)

Sorry but no... the fact that people still believe this is just... excuse my language but pathetic.
Max isn't talking about the last minute switch thing (which I thought at the time but don't any longer), he was saying that Sakurai wanted someone else for DLC 5 and Nintendo disagreed and pushed Byleth instead. That's also from Sakurai himself.
 

protoblues

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They wouldn’t really need to make a profit off of Geno other than Smash, although I would like something like an SMRPG remake or Geno in more games, Joker got a spinoff game that’s only out in one region so far. Hero coincided with the Switch port of DQ11. Banjo and Terry got almost nothing at all, and Byleth was... Byleth. When Smash 4 happened and we got Cloud we didn’t even get any version of FF7 until 4 years later on an entirely different console. I think Square would be pretty happy with a $6 character and a bunch of mii costumes because that’d get them enough revenue along with Hero and the mii costumes that he came with already.
Also and I probably should have led with this, tell me why Banjo-Kazooie got picked over, say, Master Chief or Steve then? How profitable was BK exactly considering their advertisement is a game that's not only unavailable on the Switch or any relevant Nintendo console (N64 is hardly relevant in 2019 unless the N64 Classic came out and I was completely unaware of it), but only available on the 360/X1? You know as well as I do that the profits that they brought in was probably nonexistent besides people who bought DLC Pack 3/FP1. MC would have likely been infinitely more profitable and they'd have more advertising for the upcoming Halo game in 2020. BK has an Amiibo coming out and a few pieces of merchandise. MC has *PLENTY* of games, merchandise, would have an Amiibo if he came instead, etc. People also arren't going to buy an X1 for Rare Replay, but they absolutely would for Halo.
I know it's hard to read every post on here but I've already responded to this so many times. I'll try and say something I haven't said before.

I'll start with the contours of the Banjo deal and compare that proposition to Geno.

Banjo was frankly more popular than Geno to begin with, meaning more DLC sales (more value for Nintendo). Microsoft's value is the enrichment of the the Banjo IP which they can capitalize on how they see fit -- as things are now, Square can't capitalize on the value of Geno's return to prominence at all. Microsoft didn't want to share the value of Banjo's newfound relevancy with Nintendo, but instead they brought other titles to the system (Cuphead, Ori) - there's extra value for Nintendo (and MS, really -- X1 is end of life and it's extra sales). A great deal for everyone.

Now, Master Chief vs. Banjo

We know Microsoft is not bringing Halo to Switch. They are not even willing to bring Rare Replay to Switch. Adding Master Chief to Smash will enrich one of the most profitable IPs of a major competitor, and yeah, that's a huge value for Microsoft. But Smash players aren't particularly clamoring for Master Chief like they were for Banjo (less DLC sales for Nintendo), MC has never and will never appear on a Nintendo system (no shared value of enriching the IP), and at most Microsoft will throw Nintendo a handful of additional indie game ports they owns the right to (diminishing returns after the Banjo deal).

There are two sides to these deals. Nintendo has to profit and the third party has to profit. Just... come on, man. Did you really think this argument was a slam dunk because including Master Chief would provide more value for just Microsoft?

Terry: Here's the interview with SNK again about making SNK Heroines a Switch physical exclusive and bringing more games to the console.

Cloud: Dude. Obviously the value to Square Enix is the value of enriching the IP, which they are literally using in a major release right now. This is a huge value! Where do they get that kind of value from Geno being included?! There has to be something in it for them! Nintendo got ports of FF7 - X on Switch (which you write off for some reason?!) and if you haven't noticed SE has been one of Nintendo's most reliable partners this generation... of course SE held their projects for the Switch... even Nintendo knew the Wii U was a disaster by the time Cloud's DLC was released. They knew it when Smash 4 was released--that's why it's on 3DS!
 
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Icewolff92

Smash Champion
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2,620
Max isn't talking about the last minute switch thing (which I thought at the time but don't any longer), he was saying that Sakurai wanted someone else for DLC 5 and Nintendo disagreed and pushed Byleth instead. That's also from Sakurai himself.
So when they decided the first pass it went like this
"Hey I want to make these 5 as a fighter"
"Sorry but you need to add Byleth"
"Sigh okay".

Sure, that¨s one thing, but the way Max puts it as far as I understand is that Nintendo and Sakurai had greenlighted 5 characters where Byleth where non of them, and Nintendo did a last-minute decision to force him to put Byleth suddenly in the game. That¨s what I was calling out
 

Professor Pumpkaboo

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We seriously need to have a talk about this and band together as the gaming community and push for real change to deal with stuff like the corona virus in ways that are not Draconian, like pushing for mass testing, free health insurance in the U.S., etc.
ok, what is the gaming community going to do then? Be serious, what can the community do to help stop this virus
 
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KCCHIEFS27

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
1,291
So, about these rumors that E3 is going to be cancelled on account of the corona virus...

I greatly fear that the panic surrounding the corona virus will compel us to continue doing things like shutting down major events, isolating ourselves from each other, shutting down the economy, which will do little to prevent the spread of the virus given it has a long incubation period and has already spread around for months, and will ultimately hurt us all in the long run. What's going to happen when the pandemic lasts for months and months and we're *still* shutting down every major event and a lot of what were once voluntary measures become enforced, possibly by law? What happens when major dev studios crash and burn because of this?

We seriously need to have a talk about this and band together as the gaming community and push for real change to deal with stuff like the corona virus in ways that are not Draconian, like pushing for mass testing, free health insurance in the U.S., etc.
Honestly with the skies in China actually being clear lately without the normal amount of pollution I’m pretty cool with shutting down the world economy for a little bit. Pretty big eye opener that if we can just slow our lives down we can let the Earth recover a little bit from how consistently we ravage it. This is not me being happy for what is going on but I think we can use this as a nice learning opportunity
 
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RetrogamerMax

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Push as much as you want, it's just not going to happen.
Sherlock I said Nintendo was pushing it not me.

(also why even mention DK? DK is puny in comparison and doesn't even get 1st party development nowadays. Hell I'd say FE is larger than the DK series at this point)
DK while it hasn't had that many major games since Rare was around is still Nintendo's 4th best selling franchise with over 50 million sales. Fire Emblem will never reach that and had Rare not left Nintendo in 2002 DK would have more sales than Zelda right now and that is the facts. Retro's DKC games sell almost twice as more as a Fire Emblem game does for Intelligent Systems so DK is still ahead of it even though it isn't release as many games as Fire Emblem.
 
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protoblues

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Are we sure that would actually happen? They would need to pay Square whatever amount of money for Geno, yes, and maybe have his creator advise how he should be written (character/personality-wise) if he still works at SE, same with Mallow if he’s in, but I don’t think they’d necessarily be taking the majority of creative stuff away from IS.
Not the majority, but they're saying "put Geno in this game as a major character." That's a pretty big ask, and also the opposite of the kind of ask they've been rumored to make of IS previously ("don't use any characters at all"). If IS already has a vision for the game, and Nintendo asks them to put Geno in sometime in 2019, he's just gotta be shoehorned in... which is not a lot different from DLC. The plus to DLC is, you can pay Square out of DLC sales, since that's the only thing using their content. If Geno is a major character in the game, you've got to cut into your profit by giving them some portion of the game's revenue.

I don't think that scenario is totally outlandish mind you, just that DLC seems like an easier fit.
 

Firox

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I appreciate the sentiment but the US is hard pushing Diet Pepsi personified for president so, true to American nature, nothing major is going to happen until the bottom falls out.
To be fair, I don't see how free health care and mass testing would stem the tide of the virus. One of those might give the public better visibility but the issue lies in the virus' long incubation period and the fact that someone can be contagious long before they're symptomatic. Combine this with the airborne nature of it and we're looking at a pretty complicated fix. Shutting down public events (at least for the time being) is a start, but if this thing is half as bad as the flu or common cold, a vaccine is going to be the only truly reliable method of killing it in its tracks (which the powers that be ARE currently working on). In the mean time, people need to stop panicking, wash their hands frequently, limit activities in public and realize that buying ten pallets of toilet paper is not going to accomplish anything.
 
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