Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[magiciandude]

Damn I feel for you guys. I remember when Sakurai mentioned being interested in Geno I think for Brawl? It's frustrating to know that a plant got in even over a Koopa Troopa.

 

[Bendario]

Being an icon, spirit, or costume does not disqualify a character from being playable. We have examples of playable characters being all of those, Geno is still a possibility for DLC.

 

[owjies]

So, where we're at:

-Geno wasn't hard disconfirmed today.

-There's 5 DLC characters left.

-At least one has been very heavily implied to belong to Square Enix.

-All characters were decided in 2015, around the time of the last Smash Direct.

-Despite the fallout of the Grinch Leak, Geno was the only character that wasn't spoken about negatively by insiders aside from Ken.

-A giant chunk of the competition is now gone.

-All new DLC characters will be completely original and no echoes.

-Geno was technically already DLC once.

I'd add too that there's chance the ballot will influence one or more of the DLC picks in the same way that the base roster pulls from a variety of sources.

 

[coolcat12347]

I’ll try staying positive for the rest of the supporters, okay?

Again, not deconfirmed. We’re safe for now.

 

[QcSlayer]

Here from the Isaac thread, super sad that a plant beat us for a place on the roster.

I'm just one person, but I do think that whitout Banjo-Kazooie, Geno and Isaac that game will never trully be ultimate.

However together we are stronger, we may even reach Nintendo.

What do you guys think about making some noise together?

 

[DJDave189]

I don't know too much about Geno since I never played SMRPG but he does look like a interesting character, with DLC confirmed it looks like he still has a chance to become playable so I wish you guys the best of luck.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I love how everyone suddenly thinks Sakurai has lost his touch and that everything sucks because we didn't get exactly what we wanted.

Spirit mode likes like an interesting side mode, alongside being Subspace Jr.

Geno is still in the running, and that's great news for us.

Isaac and Shadow fans, I'm sorry. At the end of the day, though, not EVERY CHARACTER WE WANT was going to make it into Smash.

If you can honestly look at Ultimate and tell me Sakurai did a bad job, or he's out of touch, or he's lazy, I don't know what to say to you. I think you're just being upset because you convinced yourself we were getting something that was never guaranteed.

I still think Geno is going to be in the game - most likely as one of the first DLC characters.

Don't be so dismissive of people's disappointment. I think there's a very real complaint to be lodged about how Sakurai handled these deconfirmations at the very least. Waiting until the very end to show off a LOT of the highly requested newcomers was undoubtedly a mistake as it gave a lot of hope to communities that usually wouldn't. Saying that the ballot had a large influence on the game and then keep the spark alive til the very end of a hype cycle just to crush it, isn't not being in touch with this fan base. Revealing Incineroar and Ken as the last fighters feels out of touch if par for the course when it comes to Sakurai's late game reveals. The way he approached revealing characters and managing the expectations of specific fan bases can be described as out of touch.

And the idea that assist trophies are meaningful and not seen with negativity is a big point of contention. That may not be true of all people, but a lot of people have come to see assist trophies as a death sentence to their characters since they won't escape that status in the age of DLC. Bringing back an assist trophy of someone so highly requested like Isaac does NOT feel good to the fans of one of the most requested characters in the game, and he continues the disturbing trend of including notable and easily developable characters into assist trophies with complicated move sets for an assist trophy. That's a trend that has gotten a lot more traction with this game. Assist trophies are better suited for characters that play actually minor roles or act as traditional enemies (Stares at Piranha Plant).

Not to mention saying that you're listening to fan requests and then prioritizing the Piranha Plant as a character in any way, shape, or form, regardless of how unique that character may be, is a bit of a slap in the face to fans. Incineroar we understand because Pokemon and Incineroar seems to be the current Pokemon they're pushing. Mario is BIG too, but there's a pretty long list of Mario characters, all much more highly requested and desired by fans than it is.

I actually like all of the new characters we've seen today and they seem like they will play interestingly, but there are some realities of the situation that are very easily upsetting.

And that's not even addressing how the Direct felt horribly paced, the fact that Spirits feels like a glorified set of Event Matches strung together and using JPGs to replace the trophies doesn't feel great. And the fact we seem to have an even less sensible online mode than Smash 4's. There at the very least should be a mode made for those who don't want items and those who do. You can do it the way he has decided for Smash Ultimate and still offer those options. In a game loaded with other options, that seems utterly asinine and regressive. Features like Stage Builder seem definitively gone. There is no sign of Home-Run contest or other elements from Games & More. Multi-Man Smash actually looks like it has been cut back with only three options as opposed to the larger suite from Smash 4.

I have a lot of problems with how the reveals were handled, and the choices made. I could accept his character choices if he'd ripped the bandaid off immediately for such highly requested and fan supported characters. If he'd even given us the first DLC character planned (that's not a bonus) so we knew at least something we were getting with the Pass, I'd feel better. It felt like he was apologizing for even offering the pass without doing so, which was a little unnecessary.

Where my disappointment balloons is how the rest of the game is handled from what we've seen, and how I feel like I watched 40 minutes of a Direct and learned at best 20 minutes worth of actual content. It was handled poorly in my eyes and that's not going to change.

I think Sakurai has worked phenomenally hard to complete the game, has made an amazing product worthy of the title of Ultimate. I actually do indeed like, and even really love most of the additions, and I'm ecstatic that "Everyone is Here!". 103 stages is goddamn amazing. I'm glad he's put a lot of quality of life stuff in the game. I got three of my top ten most wanted including my top two. That CGI trailer for the Spirits was actually great, and I do like the style of the world map at least. I won't argue all of that.

I just think that he mishandled the hype cycle of the game and the way he approached reveals. He did warn us on the amount of newcomers, but I wish he'd done more to keep the hype in check for those big requested characters as well. And I think some of the decisions for the game feel bad right now, but may play out better in practice. We'll just have to see.

 

[Majalbatross]

Well Puppetbros, it was an honour serving with you. Geno being a spirit has killed any hope I've had for him ever making it into the game, even with DLC coming.

 

[Diem]

To add onto EricTheGamerman , yeah, this Direct was pretty mishandled. For how long it was, one would expect a substantial amount of information to be covered. The E3 and August Directs were packed, yet were only <30 minutes.

For how long the Direct was, I expected Spirits to be, well, what I'd always expected. Melee-ish Adventure Mode 2.0, or Great Maze 2.0. Something with unique areas and enemies to fight. It's definitely interesting and unique, but not nearly as substantial as what was promised. No new environments/levels, no NPC enemies to fight, nothing.

At least at the end with the CG cutscene and reveal of the huge and interesting map, they showed it wasn't that bad. But again, that's like 25 minutes or so of believing it's not all it was hyped up to be, and then getting the info that it's something pretty cool and imaginative. Definitely better than anything Smash 4 had. I'm really looking forward to it.

But the characters. Yeah. If Incineroar was revealed in August in replacement for either Simon of K. Rool, I think it would've been much better. But all the cool character announcements were frontloaded, and the last three were all major steps down. Not necessarily bad picks, but not hype ones.

Not to mention the way Assist Trophies were handled. They should've shown them all at E3 and get it out of the way. Instead they spread it across three Directs, with this one having two of the biggest ones ever.

Regardless, I doubt that any of this is going to negatively impact the game or its sales. Today and the near future are going to be rough, but in a month I think most people will have come to terms with things. People will still be upset, and should definitely voice their support for their characters of choice, but it's not like this is the first time this kind of thing has happened.

And I'm pretty sure Geno still has a shot. Given that he's a licensed character, him being DLC is easier to manage, because they can handle that license separately from the spaghetti mess that is the base game. Plus, he's big enough to drive purchases for $5.99, whereas Incineroar certainly wouldn't.

 

[thirsty-pocket]

Look, most of you haven’t stopped hoping for over a decade-
What’s stopping you from hoping for a little longer?

I only recently started supporting Geno. it always seemed like I had to keep my wishlist more realistic. that characters can only be in if they were still relevant, or if they were iconic enough retro characters. or characters that Nintendo's bigwigs approved of personally.
when K Rule and Ridley were both confirmed, suddenly felt like a lot more was possible and that the fans were finally the one starting to dictate that direction of the roster. Suddenly my hopes for newcomers skyrocketed is the likes of Gino and Banjo Kazooie who I never would have dreamed possible before. Isabel with the brakes on my hopes pretty hard, Ken and incineroar pretty much put my hopes in reverse. I want to be optimistic about DLC, but I feel like I'm just going to get burned again like I was with the Wii U.

 

[FooltheFlames]

yeah but why though?

 

[cmbsfm]

I don’t care what everyone says, I think Pirhana plant was incredibly stupid choice for a fighter. I’ve loved almost every choice Sakurai made, like Wii Fit Trainer and ROB. But Pirhana plant is just stupid and kind of feels like a slap in the face. I don’t care if he’s free, why couldn’t it have been someone else?

 

[Mr Gentleman]

I think the key difference between Spirits and Assists that make it still quite possible that the spirits can still be characters in DLC while the assists can not is that there is no confusion to deal with. Spirits are basically just stickers but they don't appear on stage. while Assist trophies if they made a character of them there could be confusion if they were summoned while playing that character.

and again. Vergeben said a Square Enix character. that might be info about the first character in the DLC fighter pack.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Here from the Isaac thread, super sad that a plant beat us for a place on the roster.

I'm just one person, but I do think that whitout Banjo-Kazooie, Geno and Isaac that game will never trully be ultimate.

However together we are stronger, we may even reach Nintendo.

What do you guys think about making some noise together?

 

[Graizen]

Never lose Hope! Your character can be a DLC! Fight for it!

Im fighting for Agumon as well!

 

[Fatmanonice]

On top of everything I've said, I also don't buy Geno getting demoted to an icon after getting a Mii costume last time.

X- part of a final smash
Protoman- part of a final smash
Dunban- part of a final smash
Isabelle- playable
Akira- assist trophy
Zero- assist trophy
Megaman EXE- part of a final smash
Inkling- playable
King K. Rool- playable
Flying Man- stage element
Chrom- playable
Black Knight- assist trophy
K.K.- stage element
Toad- Peach's moveset
Viridi- stage element
Takamaru- assist trophy
Ashley- assist trophy
Tails- stage element
Knuckles- assist trophy

Most of these became more tangible in Ultimate, even if it was just improved graphics because they came from Smash 3DS. A lot of the costumes were changed into assist trophy they could have just as easily done that with Geno because they literally had permission for all the assets already. That said, I still think something's up.

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

Sorry you didn't get Geno, but don't give up hope. He already has a foot in the door with the Spirit, he's not out of the running for DLC.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

Luckily our situaion should be sorted out fairly quickly. With Vergeben knowing about a Square character ahead of time, you have to assume it’ll be the first character announced from the Fighter Pass.

 

[JarBear]

My heart hurts so much. I admit this feels like it was the only chance despite there being DLC. If not on the base rooster for a very popular request, what would change this time? Sorry to be a downer but the salt in the wound was Pihrana plant being playable. Slap in the face for many people and popular requests.

 

[QcSlayer]

They can always replace an AT from someone who has the same power.

Isaac could becoma playable and Félix/Matthew take is AT place.

Seems unlikely, but there is no rules.

 

[Klimax]

I think that Geno is not a spirit and only a player's icon. On the picture where you can see his icon, you also have an icon of Klaptrap, here's the interesting part:

There's a Klaptrap's spirit, but the picture is not the same as the one used for the icon (I assume they used a picture of his AT for the icon). So basically, icons are probably not linked to spirits. Anyway, even if Geno ends up being a spirit, this is not a disconfirmation in my eyes (as everyone said, Mewtwo and Lucas had trophies in Smash 4). That's what we have, the confirmation that we're still alive.

Also, now that we know Vergeben is correct, we know that we'll get a Square Enix character. So we're where we were yesterday. Geno still has a ton of things going for him (and we must remember it). The tweet about Mario RPG, the Nintendo's graphist talkin about him, Sakurai talkin about him, the Geno's reference in Kingdom Hearts 3, etc...

I think that Square Enix want to see how popular Geno really is and it will be easier to measure that by making him a DLC character. Also, DLC characters have to come with unique stage and music. Geno + Forest Maze Music (probably not in the game at this point) + Forest Maze Stage (obviously not in the game at this point).

I think that Geno is in the Mewtwo's spot. They probably planned to add him but maybe because he wasn't the top priority (Inklings were a shoe-in, Ridley had to be in the game and they had something big to show at E3, Simon Belmont is a legend and the retro rep, King K Rool is probably the winner of the Smash Ballot, Isabelle and Incineroar because they're too important in their franchises. All of them had to be in the base game, Geno doesn't neeed that and as I said, it's easier to measure what he's worth by making him DLC. He's popular among the community and they know that the hardcore fans will buy his DLC. Also they know that his announcement will be something that people will talk about. Yeah, that's basically a Mewtwo's situation.

And after Geno, I see them going full third party with big names (Banjo and Rayman are the most likely in my opinion). Sadly, I don't believe in Dixie's chance, not because of her presence as a spirit but because Sakurai clearly has a problem with the Donkey Kong Franchise.

But yeah, I think that Geno has a good shot at being DLC.


And Piranha Plant is a **** choice. I'll probably love her in the future, but it doesn't change anything, that was a dumb move.

 

[Fatmanonice]

My heart hurts so much. I admit this feels like it was the only chance despite there being DLC. If not on the base rooster for a very popular request, what would change this time? Sorry to be a downer but the salt in the wound was Pihrana plant being playable. Slap in the face for many people and popular requests.

One word: money. Square Enix only seems to be okay with their content getting in if people are willing to pay extra for it. Geno was technically already DLC once so he's technically jumped over that hurdle. I might have to review the footage but I'm fairly confident that Geno and Cloud are the only SE content in the game right now aside from Midgar.

 

[TheZoologist]

This was definitely a disappointing Direct, considering all we've been dealing with before this past week. That said, I'm still optimistic and excited to have the game in hand December 7th! I'm taking off that Friday and Monday and playing for four days, trying to unlock as many characters as possible with my friends and enjoy every bit of it I can play. Despite the tragic loss of the Grinch leak and no longer having the prospect of Issac, Geno, Shadow, Chorus Kids, Mach Rider, and, of course, Banjo & Kazooie in the base roster, I still give major props to whoever made that banner. It inspired hope in us and I for one am keeping that fake banner in my collection of photos just as a reminder that the perfect Smash roster may yet be made some day. I hold no hard feelings towards Sakurai and know he's doing his best to please as many people as possible. This game is still going to be fun to play with my friends and hopefully maybe someday everyone's favorites will manage to make it in. I hope you all keep your spirits high and not get mired down in disappointment for too long. This game can still be surprising and entertaining. Hope to see you all on the battlefield!

 

[SSGuy]

The only piece that concerns me regarding the SE character is that we just received a DLC Mario character. Would this hurt Geno with low odds of two DLC characters being revealed?

 

[TBone06]

The only piece that concerns me regarding the SE character is that we just received a DLC Mario character. Would this hurt Geno with low odds of two DLC characters being revealed?

I don't considering there were two Fire Emblem characters for DLC in Smash 4.

 

[Graizen]

Vergeben posted this minutes ago:

 

[coolcat12347]

So... we finally have something to be hopeful about?

 

[SSGuy]

I don't considering there were two Fire Emblem characters for DLC in Smash 4.

Yes but they weren't back to back and that is what is concerning me the most.

 

[TBone06]

Yes but they weren't back to back and that is what is concerning me the most.

I don't think that really matters personally. Plus, no one said he had to be the first DLC character. I honestly can see them revealing two Square characters. I think if the characters will sell, they will put them in regardless where they are from.

 

[Klimax]

Vergeben posted this minutes ago:

View attachment 174706

Yup, I'm starting to believe more and more in my "Mewtwo's spot" theory.

 

[cybersai]

Well a Square rep is confirmed for DLC. As said who else could it be:

- Sora is owned by Disney. I don't know if Nintendo wants to deal with that hassle
- DragonQuest rep is possible, but I heard the series and it's music are expensive
- Another Final Fantasy rep would feel redundant

And if Geno has a spirit, Sakurai/Nintendo still have the rights to use him. His Mii costume is probably back as well so he's possible.

 

[Darkfur]

5 DLC characters just sound like incremental heartbreak. 5 more times to have hopes kicked in the bits, the last one to finally kill the hope I've carried for over 12 years. I just.... dont think I can do this anymore... v_v

 

[paper roxy]

dont forget some key differences between geno and sora

- geno is partially a mario character. sora has no relationship with mario or even nintendo in general apart from having games on the console
- geno is a character sakurai has mentioned wanting for 10 years. i dont think sakurai has ever said a word about sora
- as far as polls and everything else goes (ones we have data on at least), geno is way more popular than sora (i dont even think ive even heard a mention of sora on many polls)
- adding on to the last one, geno dlc would sell like hotcakes. mostly just inferring this based on sakurai's comments on how popular geno is in the polls (there arent comments from sakurai on sora, take that as you will)
- negotiating a square character whos appeared on a nintendo game (who they obviously have some rights to use if they were able to publish mario rpg and use geno as a mii costume and profile picture/spirit) would be 10000000 times easier than a disney/square character

a few of these are speculation and just off the top of my head, just wanted to post this because seeing "sora has more of a chance than geno" really doesnt feel truthful to me at all

 

[paper roxy]

i'd also just like to post what i shared in the ultimate megathread:

honestly i had given up hope about geno because everyone was saying sora would be the dlc since he's more popular but after a quick google search..
"All characters and worlds original to the Kingdom Hearts franchise are owned by The Walt Disney Company."
i have significantly less high expectations for sora and better hopes for geno tbh. sora is owned by square and disney. geno is just owned by square (and partially nintendo from what we know about him being used) and itd be WAY easier for sakurai to make a deal with square for a character he wants than having to deal with a character owned by square AND disney

 

[MattX20]

I admit, today's direct left me feeling pretty angry, but I'm not giving up on Geno yet as long as what Vergeben says about another Square Enix character being DLC is a thing.

 

[HLEEP]

So everyone saying Geno is a spirit is completely incorrect and I was fooled by it too until I saw someone on reddit point it out, but the image everyone is using to prove that he's a spirit is actually just from the online lobby "token" system. Granted, it could be that you get icons of spirits, or that he is just an icon in the game. We have no idea. Geno was not de-confirmed in any way shape or form, in fact in my opinion him being an icon could support the Square Enix DLC character theory.

 

[Klimax]

In my opinion, the 5 characters are going to be Geno and 4 third party juggernauts (Banjo Kazooie are a lock in my opinion, Rayman and Steve seem likely).

Vergeben is just right, there's a Square Enix character, Nintendo talked about Geno when they were making the roster, Sakurai loves Geno. Geno wa just no a priority for the base game and Square Enix probably wanted him as a DLC because it would be easier to make a good deal by this way.

So everyone saying Geno is a spirit is completely incorrect and I was fooled by it too until I saw someone on reddit point it out, but the image everyone is using to prove that he's a spirit is actually just from the online lobby "token" system. Granted, it could be that you get icons of spirits, or that he is just an icon in the game. We have no idea. Geno was not de-confirmed in any way shape or form, in fact in my opinion him being an icon could support the Square Enix DLC character theory.

Also, this Klaptrap's image is not the same as the one used for Klaptrap's spirit. So yeah, players' icons and spirits are different.
And in my opinion, having a Square Enix character as DLC is not a theory but a fact, remember, it's coming from Vergeben.
We gotta keep believing, we're still alive and strong.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

Part of me doesn't even want Verge to be right. He's a massive asshole

 

[cybersai]

All 5 of the DLC won't be third party, I think at least two Nintendo newcomers will be there. But we're only getting one from Square, it's either Geno or one of their other franchises.

 

[Gemini-Gene]

Being an icon, spirit, or costume does not disqualify a character from being playable. We have examples of playable characters being all of those, Geno is still a possibility for DLC.

I came here to post this.

Personally I believe that any character that Sakurai has gone on record of wanting for Smash but couldn't due to reasons is still in the clear for a possible DLC newcomer (Geno, Chorus Kids, Banjo-Kazooie, Mach Rider). Geno may be a spirit but it doesn't mean that he still can't be DLC. I honestly was expecting Geno to end up as a Mii costume after that small Direct Massacre session of characters being deconfirmed but luckily it didn't happen.