Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

GenoToto

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In light of all the potential Geno hype (and to add my own positive energy into the pile o' wishes), how about ya'll have somethin' I just wrapped up finishing about ten minutes ago! This will be available as a print at Oni-Con in Galveston, for anyone who may just so happen to be going there. Hope you guys like this one!

Ahh, to finally contribute to the fanart pile.

geno-PNG-resize-v2.png
 

Neon05

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Well a character like Lara Croft may also have the odds stacked against her because Sakurai seems more keen to draw from Japanese IP. Regardless, that might be true, it might not. A year and a half ago people were saying the Dragon Quest Hero would be boring compared to Geno.

I'm not going to underestimate Sakurai's ability to cull an interesting moveset simply because others might come up short. People did that with Pac-Man, people did that with Ryu, and, as said, people did that with Hero.


Well Sakurai related it to Terry, I think he raised it because SNK properties may be less prolific than past third-party IP to a wide swath of the audience.
To be honest, I doubt anybody can make Lara Croft a very interesting character. She got her crossbow which Link and Pit but she got poison arrows, her iconic dual pistols while bayonetta has 4, acrobatic skills like Zero Suit Samus, an axe, and some rope or a hook. Doesn’t seem to add flashiness like 2B or Geno if Sakurai considers Lara as a Square fighter.
 
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Kewl0210

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Fun fact I noticed. I was thinking about how the Mii Costume leak was like super-similar to the Ken leak down to having everyone taunt on the same frame again.

The Ken leak, the original, was September 21st 2018, and then the real Ken was officially revealed November 1st 2018. 40 days apart.
This came out right around midnight between the 3rd and 4th of November. If you add 40 days to that, that leads to December 13th-14th. The Game Awards are on December 12th. If it's real, it's revealed at the Game Awards, and it's the same guy doing the same thing, it almost lines up to be within a day or so of the EXACT distance between the leak and the reveal.

This isn't a serious claim of anything, just for fun, but would be a fun coincidence if that ended up happening and it was real.
 
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This picture is going to get plenty of use in the coming months.
View attachment 245747
Sure, but Dante would be hella fun to play as. No doubt about that. I'm not really sure how Phoenix Wright would be more fun, but if we're going by MVC, then I'd definitely put Dante ahead in that department imo. And there are plenty of interesting ways to make Jill and Leon fun as well.
 
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RingJ5

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Sure, but Dante would be hella fun to play as. And there are plenty of interesting ways to make Jill and Leon fun as well.
And, as multiple people have already pointed out complete will poll sources, neither are remotely as requested for Smash as Phoenix is.

I don’t want to sound like I’m doing that whole “crowd appeal” argument fallacy, because that isn’t what I’m trying to here, but arguing this specific point in the Geno thread of all places doesn’t tend to go over well. This is, like, the highest concentrated amount of “people who value Smash requests over overall relevancy” that you can possibly find online, and considering that we did totally just get Banjo instead of, say, Minecraft, it’s looking like Smash itself very much seems to value that as well.
 
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And, as multiple people have already pointed out complete will poll sources, neither are remotely as requested for Smash as Phoenix is.

I don’t want to sound like I’m doing that whole “crowd appeal” argument fallacy, because that isn’t what I’m saying here, but arguing this specific point in the Geno thread of all places doesn’t tend to go over well. This is, like, the highest concentrated amount of “people who value Smash requests over overall relevancy” that you can possibly find online, and considering that we did totally just get Banjo instead of, say, Minecraft, it’s looking like Smash itself very much seems to value that as well.
Dante appeared in that poll that was posted. He's definitely requested. the Source Gaming poll is also a very small sample and isn't the end all be all of polls.
He's not Ridley/K. Rool/Banjo/Geno level. Or Sora level I suppose Sora is up there now for requests.

Aw, damnit! Guess we should pack it up, then, by that logic Sora and 2B are practically guaranteed before Geno.

In all seriousness, though, requests seem to legitimately matter now, and Phoenix has had a particularly notable amount of them in Smash’s history, especially compared to RE or DMC. On top of that, the RE protagonists are little more than “regular people with guns”(as much as I would love a villain rep from that series, that seems very unlikely) and I could also see them preferring to use someone else over Dante since Bayonetta already exists to represent both the same creator and style of game.
Having both Dante and Bayonetta in the same game would be fantastic!
 
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N3ON

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And, as multiple people have already pointed out complete will poll sources, neither are remotely as requested for Smash as Phoenix is.

I don’t want to sound like I’m doing that whole “crowd appeal” argument fallacy, because that isn’t what I’m saying here, but arguing this specific point in the Geno thread of all places doesn’t tend to go over well. This is, like, the highest concentrated amount of “people who value Smash requests over overall relevancy” that you can possibly find online, and considering that we did totally just get Banjo instead of, say, Minecraft, it’s looking like Smash itself very much seems to value that as well.
Mmm, but I don't think Phoenix is at the level of demand whereby another Capcom character getting in over him is inconceivable either. He's not as popular as the characters who get in due to popularity tend to be.

I mean, he was more popular than Ryu when Ryu got in, you can check polls from around that time.
 
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Mmm, but I don't think Phoenix is at the level of demand whereby another Capcom character getting in over him is inconceivable either. He's not as popular as the characters who get in due to popularity tend to be.

I mean, he was more popular than Ryu when Ryu got in, you can check polls from around that time.
This. Anyone can be fun. If they were going purely by requests, then characters like Ryu, Joker, Hero, and Terry wouldn't have gotten in.

And characters like Ryu, Cloud, Simon, Hero, etc, got in due to how important their franchises are to gaming. And they are also very fun characters.

Jill, Leon, Dante, Phoenix Wright, Amaterasu, etc can all be made fun. There's no real argument that they couldn't be.
 
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Griselda

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While I'm not really sure how he could be implemented in Smash a way that both makes sense and isn't boring, if that could be figured out I think Nathan Drake would be a nice addition.
 

RingJ5

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Dante appeared in that poll that was posted. He's definitely requested. the Source Gaming poll is also a very small sample and isn't the end all be all of polls.
He's not Ridley/K. Rool/Banjo/Geno level. Or Sora level I suppose Sora is up there now for requests.



Having both Dante and Bayonetta in the same game would be fantastic!
My point wasn’t “whether it would be good” it was “whether there might be a more original option since we already have the main character from the spiritual successor, and the DLC so far has been focused on either fulfilling fan requests or getting new companies in.”

As for the polls, it’s interesting that the two that he isn’t on at all were posted before February of this year, and the two that he is on were posted after.

Mmm, but I don't think Phoenix is at the level of demand whereby another Capcom character getting in over him is inconceivable either. He's not as popular as the characters who get in due to popularity tend to be.

I mean, he was more popular than Ryu when Ryu got in, you can check polls from around that time.
It’s not impossible, but I don’t particularly think it’s likely, especially on the cusp of Geno potentially getting in if the leak is true. Fan-requests are clearly mattering more than they ever have, and Phoenix has been a pretty prominent one since at least Wii U if not earlier.
 
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My point wasn’t “whether it would be good” it was “whether there might be a more original option.”

As for the polls, it’s interesting that the two that he isn’t on at all were posted before February of this year, and the two that he is on were posted after.



It’s not impossible, but I don’t particularly think it’s likely, especially on the cusp of Geno potentially getting in if the leak is true. Fan-requests are clearly mattering more than they ever have, and Phoenix has been a pretty prominent one since at least Wii U if not earlier.
I genuinely believe it's because people didn't consider him an option because he'd never been on a Nintendo console before, but once people realized that's not as big a deal, Dante's support shot up dramatically. That, as well as Smash, getting bigger. The series now appeals to an even wider audience of gamers and has become the best selling fighting game of all time. People that might not have grown up with Nintendo consoles or are new to gaming in general. As that happens, more varying character requests will appear that aren't usual compared to the traditional fanbase. That's why characters like Doom Slayer, Dante, Crash, Heavy, Reimu, etc. have increased in popularity.
 
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N3ON

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It’s not impossible, but I don’t particularly think it’s likely, especially on the cusp of Geno potentially getting in if the leak is true. Fan-requests are clearly mattering more than they ever have, and Phoenix has been a pretty prominent one since at least Wii U if not earlier.
Well Geno might get in, but Hero did get in. I'm, uh, not sure if that helps your argument. Again, Phoenix does have popularity, but it's not at the level that usually results in anything.

Some of you need to start showing Wright some respect. The man single-handedly defended a killer whale and was able to cross examine a parrot.
Yeah but everyone has to do that in law school.
 

RingJ5

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I genuinely believe it's because people didn't consider him an option because he'd never been on a Nintendo console before, but once people realized that's not as big a deal, Dante's support shot up dramatically. That, as well as Smash, getting bigger. The series now appeals to an even wider audience of gamers and has become the best selling fighting game of all time. People that might not have grown up with Nintendo consoles or are new to gaming in general. As that happens, more varying character requests will appear that aren't usual compared to the traditional fanbase. That's why characters like Doom Slayer, Dante, Crash, Reimu, etc. have increased in popularity.
More specifically, it was because Itsuno commented on the situation that month, and a surprising amount of people took his comments as a 4D chess thing meaning that Dante was actually part of the Pass and would be revealed as one of the last two characters.

While I’m not denying that he has support, that took things from “Maybe he could be in!” to some people jumping to “Holy **** he’s actually in!” and acting accordingly.

He's cool and is deserving. I just think he'll be in before RE or Dante. And I also prefer them.
Hey, we agree after all!
Yes, yes, I know that was a typo.

Well Geno might get in, but Hero did get in. I'm, uh, not sure if that helps your argument. Again, Phoenix does have popularity, but it's not at the level that usually results in anything.


Yeah but everyone has to do that in law school.
With the Hero thing, I see that as the Enix side of things, which had absolutely zero Smash representation before then, getting in before they go for the fan-request of a second Square character. Capcom doesn’t really have an equivalent to Hero, or Joker for that matter.
 
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More specifically, it was because Itsuno commented on the situation that month, and a surprising amount of people took his comments as a 4D chess thing meaning that Dante was actually part of the Pass and would be revealed as one of the last two characters.



Hey, we agree after all!
Yes, yes, I know that was a typo.



With the Hero thing, I see that as the Enix side of things, which had absolutely zero Smash representation before then, getting in before they go for the fan-request of a second Square character. Capcom doesn’t really have an equivalent to Hero, or Joker for that matter.
Ugh forgot the "won't" part lol. If they decided they wanted a full-on 8-player Smash for Capcom characters, then Phoenix Wright and Amaterasu would definitely be the last two though. Basically I see it as Jill and Leon > Dante > Phoenix Wright > Amaterasu as far as order goes. Though Dante is my favorite of them.

Also, I had an idea for the Geno trailer. What if it starts just like the Piranha Plant trailer, but Piranha Plant is blasted before it attacks Mario or after it taunts?
 
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N3ON

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With the Hero thing, I see that as the Enix side of things, which had absolutely zero Smash representation before then, getting in before they go for the fan-request of a second Square character. Capcom doesn’t really have an equivalent to Hero, or Joker for that matter.
And yet we still got Ryu over Phoenix.

You can keep pushing the goalposts around, but it's almost definitely a case of Occam's Razor, where they just got included because they're a big, prolific series despite some other characters within the company having a little more demand.
 
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RingJ5

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And yet we still got Ryu over Phoenix.

You can keep pushing the goalposts around, but it's almost definitely a case of Occam's Razor, where they just got included because they're a big, prolific series despite some other characters within the company having a little more demand.
I’m not moving the goalposts, I’m specifically talking about Ultimate’s DLC. I know very well that Ryu was most likely finalized as a character for DLC before Phoenix really even became a notable name in speculation.

My stance on “The Pass is treating Atlus and Enix as separate companies for the purposes of character representation” isn’t new either, I’ve brought it up a good few times before.


Ugh forgot the "won't" part lol. If they decided they wanted a full-on 8-player Smash for Capcom characters, then Phoenix Wright and Amaterasu would definitely be the last two though. Basically I see it as Jill and Leon > Dante > Phoenix Wright > Amaterasu as far as order goes. Though Dante is my favorite of them.

Also, I had an idea for the Geno trailer. What if it starts just like the Piranha Plant trailer, but Piranha Plant is blasted before it attacks Mario or after it taunts?
Ooh, that’d be fun! Or maybe they can do the reverse, have Piranha Plant take Mario’s place with all the dazed characters replaced by Bowser, Jr, and the Koopalings. It walks up to a stationary doll, and then he comes to life and blasts it away.

(You edited in that eight-player thing right before I posted, so responding to it second: They would not definitely be anything. If that’s your personal preference, sure, that’s fine.)
 
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Ben Holt

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And yet we still got Ryu over Phoenix.

You can keep pushing the goalposts around, but it's almost definitely a case of Occam's Razor, where they just got included because they're a big, prolific series despite some other characters within the company having a little more demand.
Well.... Ryu WAS post-launch, and Mega Man was first despite selling less than Street Fighter (though who knows had the series not gone on hiatus).
Keep in mind that this was when we only had Snake and Sonic as third-party characters, so third-parties were a rarity.
Mega Man just happened to be more popular among Smash Bros. fans than Ryu.
 

Neon05

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And yet we still got Ryu over Phoenix.

You can keep pushing the goalposts around, but it's almost definitely a case of Occam's Razor, where they just got included because they're a big, prolific series despite some other characters within the company having a little more demand.
Um, wasn’t MegaMan added before Ryu? Street Fighter is a more successful franchise and Mega Man was a lot more dead. Also, I’m pretty sure Mega Man was a character people have been asking for and speculating than Ryu back in the Brawl days.
 
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And yet we still got Ryu over Phoenix.

You can keep pushing the goalposts around, but it's almost definitely a case of Occam's Razor, where they just got included because they're a big, prolific series despite some other characters within the company having a little more demand.
Yeah, this is true. And definitely a good reason why I think Resident Evil and Devil May Cry will come first. Then Ace Attorney,

I’m not moving the goalposts, I’m specifically talking about Ultimate’s DLC. I know very well that Ryu was most likely finalized as a character for DLC before Phoenix really even became a notable name in speculation.

My stance on “The Pass is treating Atlus and Enix as separate companies for the purposes of character representation” isn’t new either, I’ve brought it up a good few times before.




Ooh, that’d be fun! Or maybe they can do the reverse, have Piranha Plant take Mario’s place with all the dazed characters replaced by Bowser, Jr, and the Koopalings. It walks up to a stationary doll, and then he comes to life and blasts it away.
YES. That's perfect actually.

Um, wasn’t MegaMan added before Ryu? Street Fighter is a more successful franchise and MegaMan was a lot more dead. Also, I’m pretty sure MegaMan was a character people have been asking for and speculating than Ryu back in the Brawl days.
Yes, but Mega Man is their mascot and was also incredibly requested in the same way Sonic/Little Mac/Ridley/K. Rool/Banjo all were.
 
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Ben Holt

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Um, wasn’t MegaMan added before Ryu. Street Fighter is a more successful franchise and MegaMan was a lot more dead. Also, I’m pretty sure MegaMan was a character people have been asking for and speculating than Ryu back in the Brawl days.
Can confirm that Mega Man was speculated heavily during Brawl.
I lost my super old SmashBoards account from when I was like 12, so don't let my join date fool you.
 

Neon05

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Yeah, this is true. And definitely a good reason why I think Resident Evil and Devil May Cry will come first. Then Ace Attorney,



YES. That's perfect actually.



Yes, but Mega Man is their mascot and was also incredibly requested in the same way Sonic/Little Mac/Ridley/K. Rool/Banjo all were.
True, but Ryu is also a mascot in fighting games and crossovers which fits Smash perfectly. Mega Man lost his spotlight especially how Capcom was treating him.
 
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Sure, but Dante would be hella fun to play as. No doubt about that. I'm not really sure how Phoenix Wright would be more fun, but if we're going by MVC, then I'd definitely put Dante ahead in that department imo. And there are plenty of interesting ways to make Jill and Leon fun as well.
Dante would be fun, I don't disagree on that. However, Phoenix Wright still has a certain appeal to him that Dante lacks.

Phoenix Wright in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 was a character whose attacks, moveset, and animations all revolve around him being a complete non-combatant who "fights" by doing relatively mundane things like inspecting the ground, sneezing, rustling his hair in frustration, throwing stacks of paper and pieces of evidence, being overruled by the judge, and shouting his famous "HOLD IT!" and "OBJECTION!". He was basically a character who "fights without fighting", and it ended up making him stand out in a roster where all the other characters were martial artists like Ryu and Akuma, armed soldiers like Chris and Spencer, superheroes like Iron Man and Hulk, mythical deities like Thor and Amaterasu, or just strong individuals who were good at fighting like Mike Haggar and Frank West.

Looking at the roster of Smash Ultimate, there are characters who come close to the "fights without fighting" description like Villager, Isabelle, and Wii Fit Trainer, but I don't think they fit the description nearly as well as Phoenix Wright would. He admittedly wouldn't stick out as much as he did in UMVC3 since Smash's roster is more varied, but he would still bring something fun and unique to the table.

Um, wasn’t MegaMan added before Ryu? Street Fighter is a more successful franchise and MegaMan was a lot more dead. Also, I’m pretty sure MegaMan was a character people have been asking for and speculating than Ryu back in the Brawl days.
Good point. Mega Man's inclusion back in Smash came at a time when the franchise was essentially dormant and Capcom wasn't treating it very well. By all rights, Ryu was more likely to get in since Street Fighter was going strong with Ultra-IV at the time, yet Mega Man ended up getting in first despite his series being on ice.

It's entirely possible we might see a repeat of that, with Phoenix Wright getting in before any Resident Evil character.
 
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Flynn__

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I would love to see Phoenix Wright on the roster. And that also would mean all the fantastic Ace Attorney music that could get in with him. I don't know what approach would Sakurai take but I don't think he would take too much inspiration from UMvC3. Phoenix was a blast in that game, though. Is there really speculation about him getting in?
 

RingJ5

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I would love to see Phoenix Wright on the roster. And that also would mean all the fantastic Ace Attorney music that could get in with him. I don't know what approach would Sakurai take but I don't think he would take too much inspiration from UMvC3. Phoenix was a blast in that game, though. Is there really speculation about him getting in?
No leaks or anything, just that he’s been a noticeably popular request in the Smash scene for a few years, at a time when fan requests appear pretty important.

To get back on topic, forgive me if this was already talked about earlier, but apparently Brew, that one guy who says he’s ridiculously sure about Ryu being revealed this year, has chimed in. In a long DM that I cannot link because mobile Discord is awful but can be found in PapaGenos’ pins, he has said that he’s still backing Ryu for a reveal this year and that he doesn’t personally believe the Mii leak at all. However, he’s backing both Geno and Doomguy as both “almost promised inclusions”, so it looks like he’s disbelieving the Mii leak over personal doubt rather than conflicting info while simultaneously backing the characters it leaks, which is an overall good sign.

Meanwhile, Sabi just tweeted this:

 
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No leaks or anything, just that he’s been a noticeably popular request in the Smash scene for a few years, at a time when fan requests appear pretty important.

To get back on topic, forgive me if this was already talked about earlier, but apparently Brew, that one guy who says he’s ridiculously sure about Ryu being revealed this year, has chimed in. In a long DM that I cannot link because mobile Discord is awful but can be found in PapaGenos’ pins, he has said that he’s still backing Ryu for a reveal this year and that he doesn’t personally believe the Mii leak at all. However, he’s backing both Geno and Doomguy as both “almost promised inclusions”, so it looks like he’s disbelieving the Mii leak over personal doubt rather than conflicting info while simultaneously backing the characters it leaks, which is an overall good sign.

Meanwhile, Sabi just tweeted this:

It seems that we must wait for Vr Plant to give us the news
 

xpnc

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Yeah, this is true. And definitely a good reason why I think Resident Evil and Devil May Cry will come first. Then Ace Attorney.
I'm pretty sure Monster Hunter is far and above every other Capcom series in terms of priority not only for Smash but overall. Monster Hunter World is the best selling Capcom game of all time and the series is monolithic in Japan. The Rathalos and MonHun costumes are still MIA, remember.

I'll assume Doomguy is #5, and then it's Geno, followed by (in random order) Ryu Hayabusa, Monster Hunter, Lloyd, and Crash.

We can call this the "please the most number of mostly Japanese people and satisfy corporate obligations" scenario.

Doom - Bethesda was a real early supporter of the Switch. I've heard Doom called "The most Nintendo game Nintendo would never make" and has a bizarrely long-going history with Nintendo. This would make Western fans absolutely thrilled.

Geno - Please consult the last 1685 pages.

Ryu Hayabusa - Koei-Tecmo has been working side-by-side with Nintendo for awhile now. His name keeps coming up. Seems like a given really.

Monster Hunter - Capcom got Ken added to Smash, but is the only 3rd party (besides Namco, I'll get to them) who doesn't have a new series represented in Ultimate. Monster Hunter is a cultural phenomenon in Japan, MHW is Capcom's best selling game ever, there's already Monster Hunter stuff in Smash, it's basically a no-brainer.

Lloyd - Old Brawl fan favourite with one of those suspiciously absent Mii costumes. Despite what Tales fans will no doubt chime up and say, Lloyd is the most recognizable protagonist in the Tales games and is 100% who Sakurai would pick when making a Tales character. From what I understand Tales is pretty popular in Japan, too. Namco has gotten shafted this time around and Heihachi is a Pac-Man taunt so I figure Lloyd is the only logical next choice.

Crash - I may not really understand the appeal of this character (I've never owned a PlayStation), but I'm not going to deny how big of a deal this would be to a lot of people. Crash's name has been murmured throughout the internet a lot during this round of Smash speculation and certainly a lot since Banjo got in. I suspect that the most recent rumours actually stem from negotiations just finishing for Crash's inclusion into the game.
 
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I'm pretty sure Monster Hunter is far and above every other Capcom series in terms of priority not only for Smash but overall. Monster Hunter World is the best selling Capcom game of all time and the series is monolithic in Japan. The Rathalos and MonHun costumes are still MIA, remember.

I'll assume Doomguy is #5, and then it's Geno, followed by (in random order) Ryu Hayabusa, Monster Hunter, Lloyd, and Crash.

We can call this the "please the most number of mostly Japanese people and satisfy corporate obligations" scenario.

Doom - Bethesda was a real early supporter of the Switch. I've heard Doom called "The most Nintendo game Nintendo would never make" and has a bizarrely long-going history with Nintendo. This would make Western fans absolutely thrilled.

Geno - Please consult the last 1685 pages.

Ryu Hayabusa - Koei-Tecmo has been working side-by-side with Nintendo for awhile now. His name keeps coming up. Seems like a given really.

Monster Hunter - Capcom got Ken added to Smash, but is the only 3rd party (besides Namco, I'll get to them) who doesn't have a new series represented in Ultimate. Monster Hunter is a cultural phenomenon in Japan, MHW is Capcom's best selling game ever, there's already Monster Hunter stuff in Smash, it's basically a no-brainer.

Lloyd - Old Brawl fan favourite with one of those suspiciously absent Mii costumes. Despite what Tales fans will no doubt chime up and say, Lloyd is the most recognizable protagonist in the Tales games and is 100% who Sakurai would pick when making a Tales character. From what I understand Tales is pretty popular in Japan, too. Namco has gotten shafted this time around and Heihachi is a Pac-Man taunt so I figure Lloyd is the only logical next choice.

Crash - I may not really understand the appeal of this character (I've never owned a PlayStation), but I'm not going to deny how big of a deal this would be to a lot of people. Crash's name has been murmured throughout the internet a lot during this round of Smash speculation and certainly a lot since Banjo got in. I suspect that the most recent rumours actually stem from negotiations just finishing for Crash's inclusion into the game.
I remember reading an article that the devs of MH were saying that Rathalos was the best way to represent Monster Hunter in Smash. Also if we want fighting games to have the perfect representation, then Heihachi and Scorpion are musts. But that's not a guarantee that they'll be in or anything.
 

N3ON

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I’m not moving the goalposts, I’m specifically talking about Ultimate’s DLC. I know very well that Ryu was most likely finalized as a character for DLC before Phoenix really even became a notable name in speculation.

My stance on “The Pass is treating Atlus and Enix as separate companies for the purposes of character representation” isn’t new either, I’ve brought it up a good few times before.
Well you're assuming quite a bit about Sakurai's mentality when it comes to why he chooses characters, including seemingly seeking out a company instead of a character, which I think is the opposite of how things actually play out (except maybe with SNK, just given how he treated it as a unit). I mean Sakurai is always on about character legacy and series history, not company info (again, except with SNK).

But putting that aside, my point is... I don't think Phoenix is popular enough to be a popular inclusion. He's no Sonic or Mega Man or Banjo. Or Ridley or K. Rool. Or Geno. The characters that get in solely due to popularity are like... top three popularity picks. Not someone who maybe rounds out the top fifteen.

Perhaps if Sakurai was working with limited options like with Castlevania, or... idk... he was buddies with the creator like Snake. Or maybe he's just a big fan of AA. But popularity is not something I'd chalk up his addition to, at least not by itself.

Well.... Ryu WAS post-launch, and Mega Man was first despite selling less than Street Fighter (though who knows had the series not gone on hiatus).
Keep in mind that this was when we only had Snake and Sonic as third-party characters, so third-parties were a rarity.
Mega Man just happened to be more popular among Smash Bros. fans than Ryu.
Um, wasn’t MegaMan added before Ryu? Street Fighter is a more successful franchise and Mega Man was a lot more dead. Also, I’m pretty sure Mega Man was a character people have been asking for and speculating than Ryu back in the Brawl days.
Do you guys think Mega Man had "a little more demand" than Ryu? I was talking about Phoenix Wright. Mega Man was probably the most requested character for Smash 4. I consider that more than a little. My point is that those are the kind of characters who get in due to demand, not those who can't crack the top ten, like Phoenix. At that point, that's when Sakurai will just defer to big series, like Ryu's.
 

RingJ5

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
472
Well you're assuming quite a bit about Sakurai's mentality when it comes to why he chooses characters, including seemingly seeking out a company instead of a character, which I think is the opposite of how things actually play out (except maybe with SNK, just given how he treated it as a unit). I mean Sakurai is always on about character legacy and series history, not company info (again, except with SNK).

But putting that aside, my point is... I don't think Phoenix is popular enough to be a popular inclusion. He's no Sonic or Mega Man or Banjo. Or Ridley or K. Rool. Or Geno. The characters that get in solely due to popularity are like... top three popularity picks. Not someone who maybe rounds out the top fifteen.

Perhaps if Sakurai was working with limited options like with Castlevania, or... idk... he was buddies with the creator like Snake. Or maybe he's just a big fan of AA. But popularity is not something I'd chalk up his addition to, at least not by itself.



Do you guys think Mega Man had "a little more demand" than Ryu? I was talking about Phoenix Wright. Mega Man was probably the most requested character for Smash 4. I consider that more than a little. My point is that those are the kind of characters who get in due to demand, not those who can't crack the top ten, like Phoenix. At that point, that's when Sakurai will just defer to big series, like Ryu's.
You’re missing that Phoenix wasn’t really discussed all that much until after Ryu was a finalized thing, it was never really “Phoenix vs. Ryu”. There’s little doubt that the choice to include him was made before the game even launched.

Considering that, the whole “defer to big series over fan requests” claim has only one potential example in Hero, and even then I’ll still offer the argument that his and Joker’s inclusions were more about introducing two companies with long-standing Nintendo histories yet absolutely zero Smash representation before Ultimate, than they were “adding another Sega and SE character”.

Back on topic, it’s going to be weird to have this leak hanging around for upwards of a full month. The banner leak only had like a week or so.
 
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Herocin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 29, 2019
Messages
194
I'm pretty sure Monster Hunter is far and above every other Capcom series in terms of priority not only for Smash but overall. Monster Hunter World is the best selling Capcom game of all time and the series is monolithic in Japan. The Rathalos and MonHun costumes are still MIA, remember.

I'll assume Doomguy is #5, and then it's Geno, followed by (in random order) Ryu Hayabusa, Monster Hunter, Lloyd, and Crash.

We can call this the "please the most number of mostly Japanese people and satisfy corporate obligations" scenario.

Doom - Bethesda was a real early supporter of the Switch. I've heard Doom called "The most Nintendo game Nintendo would never make" and has a bizarrely long-going history with Nintendo. This would make Western fans absolutely thrilled.

Geno - Please consult the last 1685 pages.

Ryu Hayabusa - Koei-Tecmo has been working side-by-side with Nintendo for awhile now. His name keeps coming up. Seems like a given really.

Monster Hunter - Capcom got Ken added to Smash, but is the only 3rd party (besides Namco, I'll get to them) who doesn't have a new series represented in Ultimate. Monster Hunter is a cultural phenomenon in Japan, MHW is Capcom's best selling game ever, there's already Monster Hunter stuff in Smash, it's basically a no-brainer.

Lloyd - Old Brawl fan favourite with one of those suspiciously absent Mii costumes. Despite what Tales fans will no doubt chime up and say, Lloyd is the most recognizable protagonist in the Tales games and is 100% who Sakurai would pick when making a Tales character. From what I understand Tales is pretty popular in Japan, too. Namco has gotten shafted this time around and Heihachi is a Pac-Man taunt so I figure Lloyd is the only logical next choice.

Crash - I may not really understand the appeal of this character (I've never owned a PlayStation), but I'm not going to deny how big of a deal this would be to a lot of people. Crash's name has been murmured throughout the internet a lot during this round of Smash speculation and certainly a lot since Banjo got in. I suspect that the most recent rumours actually stem from negotiations just finishing for Crash's inclusion into the game.
I am incredibly suspectful of a third Capcom Rep. It seems smash is trying to make different third parties three reps at most which maybe the reason we didn't get Shadow and not Joker and Ken is pretty much a unique fighter. The echo fighter Brand was probably on there to not seem like oversaturation. I don't think a taunt would deconfirm Heihachi either as a change which isn't just tweaking damage values etc was probably done at the start of the development of the game which suggests Heihachi may still be on the table as DLC
 

N3ON

The Less I Know the Better
GRimer
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
17,547
Location
Vancouver
You’re missing that Phoenix wasn’t really discussed all that much until after Ryu was a finalized thing, it was never really “Phoenix vs. Ryu”. There’s little doubt that the choice to include him was made before the game even launched.

Considering that, the whole “defer to big series over fan requests” claim has only one potential example in Hero, and even then I’ll still offer the argument that his and Joker’s inclusions were more about introducing two companies with long-standing Nintendo histories yet absolutely zero Smash representation before Ultimate, than they were “adding another Sega and SE character”.
N3ON said:
My point is... I don't think Phoenix is popular enough to be a popular inclusion. He's no Sonic or Mega Man or Banjo. Or Ridley or K. Rool. Or Geno. The characters that get in solely due to popularity are like... top three popularity picks. Not someone who maybe rounds out the top fifteen.

Back on topic, it’s going to be weird to have this leak hanging around for upwards of a full month. The banner leak only had like a week or so.
Well, there was a believable Palutena leak that floated around for half a year during Smash 4 (it turned out being fake). Eventually people just kinda forgot about it.
 

AbeSoddus

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
21
Switch FC
SW-4523-2453-0333
"Whether or not the character is fun to play as is more important than whether the character is new or old, or whether the character is recognisable to everyone."
All he was saying is that while zoomers may not know Terry, he's still a lot of fun to play so give him a chance.
He's not saying that "a popular character with little moveset potential" is less likely to get in, or that a character few people know IS getting in because they have great moveset potential.
Sakurai wanted to put in Terry Bogard because this dude loves KoF.. so he did. Even if barely anyone asked for Terry specifically, and a lot of current day Nintendo fans aren't familiar with him.. "He's fun, so try him out!".
I really don't think there's any "popular" character that couldn't make it in because of lack of moveset potential or "fun factor" either. He came up with a great moveset for K. Rool, one of the most requested characters, and K. Rool does like.. 7 moves throughout all DK games.
Basically, don't read too much into everything. He'll find a way to put in whoever he wants and make em fun.
 
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