Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Firox]

Exactly. Had they sticked to the "asked the Smash Bros producers", that had been a totally different type of answer.

Anyhow. What about the idea of Sepiroth and Geno being in the same trailer? I need the one-winged angel theme in Smash

SERIOUSLY. There's way too much good FF music not being used right now. I'm telling you right now, if both Geno AND Sephiroth were to get into Smash, I'd suffer a massive Nerd-gasm attack and die on the spot. Best. Death. Ever.

 

[Icewolff92]

Like I said, I agree they're different situations, but you shouldn't expect the fanbase to take them differently either. It only has to suggest it's not a yes at this point.

And as I¨ve said earlier. Fanbase reactions does not mean when you write how the NDA works

Yes to One-Winged Angel. Hell, I'd take a Sephiroth Mii for that at this point. I'd prefer Geno as a fighter, but if a costume, please come with Beware The Forest Mushrooms.

Pretty much the same here honestly. Cloud not arriving with One-Winged Angel or Geno with Beware the Forest Mushrooms is like having Byleth without God Shattering Star (sigh ) You add Byleth but not THE MOST POPULAR SONG IN THE ENTIRE SOUNDTRACK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMfvZmhqW0A (sorry, still pissed about one)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And as I¨ve said earlier. Fanbase reactions does not mean when you write how the NDA works

Yes, but we're talking about speculation. How an NDA works won't matter anyway. If they see it's not a Yes, they think no. Trust me, it's futile convincing people the difference. Kind of sad too, but hey, we all have some things we need to get through that never do, heh.

Pretty much the same here honestly. Cloud not arriving with One-Winged Angel or Geno with Beware the Forest Mushrooms is like having Byleth with God Shattering Star (sigh )

I think you meant without. And indeed.

Remember when we didn't have Guile's Theme till Ultimate? D:

 

[Bob-Omber]

Whats the point of NDAs? Why don't they just tell us who the DLC is instead of making us waiting several months?

 

[Icewolff92]

Whats the point of NDAs? Why don't they just tell us who the DLC is instead of making us waiting several months?

Because Nintendo likes to see us suffer, and like to use bread crumbs instead of doing the Mortal Kombat route

 

[JarBear]

I think the simplest answer is Nintendo has a bit of a sadist tendency.

Like making us Geno fans wait ... and wait ...

 

[RingJ5]

I have said for a long time, Geno Blast would be a unique pick for up special.

Energy gathers above his head before being unleashed. On the ground, it could shot forward. If in the air, Geno could launch the energy below him, shooting him upwards.

Nah, take it one step further: The player can aim it wherever they want, with full 360 degree aiming. they just cannot move while it’s charging. There’s some great risk/reward there, do you let it go early for a shorter recovery, or do you risk getting a timed-hit full charge to absolutely rocket across the stage from the backblast?

As for the costume stuff in general, I heavily, heavily doubt that he’s returning as one. Something that I haven’t seen mentioned all too much is that Square likes to give as little as possible, yet at the same time hog the spotlight when it’s time to present what little they actually give. As seen in both Wii U and Ultimate, Square costumes do not happen outside of Square-related character announcements.

Even completely disregarding all the leaks and what they might imply, Geno returning as a costume would effectively mean one of two things: Either the costume was inexplicably never intended for Ultimate until wave two despite its fanfare and importance in the previous game, or they decided to upgrade him with a song or two at the last second and... delay him over a year to when the next Square character drops, even though they were already working on Sans at the exact same time anyway so it wasn’t like they had to come up with the idea of “premium costumes” first before doing so, while at the same time knowing full well that his absence would cause a huge stir.

Neither of those scenarios particularly make sense to me, and when you throw in the big Mallow/Smithy leak and the estimations that the new characters started to be discussed around that time... things start really adding up even without Cacomallow.

Kirkhope danced around the question, This director did not. It was basically right on cue like the producer who said "yes" when people asked him if they talked with Nintendo for Smash. He downright said, "we have talked to Nintendo but nothing serious happen"... That is like how straight forward as you can be.

His answer also goes in line with the "ask the Smash Brothers producers". This is Bethesda confirming that they are pushing for him while disconfirming him for the pass.

And concidering people belive Gamxplain has insider information. Guess who just talked about that interview speaking that it looks like Doomsday for DoomGuy... Thats right, Jon did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u3G1IJp-2o&t=0s

Kirkhope did not exactly dance around the question, he specifically said “I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you.”

In other words, “don’t get your hopes up”, which literally is not a confirmation either way. It’s literally “don’t get excited”. It sounds like he’s saying no, sure, but that’s the exact point: It only sounds like that, he’s not saying no.

The ID director literally saying that they’ve asked, yet talks have “never gone anywhere serious” is in a completely different league.

 

[Firox]

Pretty much the same here honestly. Cloud not arriving with One-Winged Angel or Geno with Beware the Forest Mushrooms is like having Byleth with God Shattering Star (sigh ) You add Byleth but not THE MOST POPULAR SONG IN THE ENTIRE SOUNDTRACK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMfvZmhqW0A (sorry, still pissed about one)

Dude, if you're bitter about musical choices for Cloud and Byleth, you should get a taste of how much gold got flushed down the toilet for Joker. Persona 5 is a treasure trove of rockin' music. You've got "Keeper of Lust", "Blooming Villain", "Will Power", "Life will change" (Instrumental), etc. At least Banjo and Terry got some proper attention.

 

[ActualGarbage]

Dude, if you're bitter about musical choices for Cloud and Byleth, you should get a taste of how much gold got flushed down the toilet for Joker. Persona 5 is a treasure trove of rockin' music. You've got "Keeper of Lust", "Blooming Villain", "Will Power", "Life will change" (Instrumental), etc. At least Banjo and Terry got some proper attention.

>"Keeper of Lust"
Damn, I didn't know they made a Persona song about me.

 

[Icewolff92]

Dude, if you're bitter about musical choices for Cloud and Byleth, you should get a taste of how much gold got flushed down the toilet for Joker. Persona 5 is a treasure trove of rockin' music. You've got "Keeper of Lust", "Blooming Villain", "Will Power", "Life will change" (Instrumental), etc. At least Banjo and Terry got some proper attention.

I¨m gonna check those out then

 

[Droodle]

You ARE aware that Cacomallow wasn't the only thing going for Geno, right? Even if Doom is out, that doesn't instantly mean Geno is screwed. C'mon, people, stop drawing such wild conclusions with such insufficient data.

Yeah I am aware of the fact that Nintendo took down some SMRPG music, and of the mii costume list.

The takedowns likely just means that SMRPG music is coming to Smash. It could come with Geno/Mallow costumes, or a full on playable fighter who knows? I know people say things like "Square would NEVER" do that; but I have little reason to believe them. The only time Square has been REALLY stingy is with Final Fantasy; Dragon Quest got fine enough representation by itself. And no they didn't add 2 music tracks for each character. That theory is stupid. The takedowns themselves are a "best case scenario" situation too, for all we know it may potentially mean nothing.

The Mii costume list is pretty old by this point, and it makes me wonder how someone managed to get the costumes for Banjo correct along with "leaking Mallow and Smithy" costumes. However, they missed Sans, all the SNK costumes, and all the Byleth costumes; if Geno gets in as a fighter (which I can't see happening earlier then E3), the list would almost be a year old at that point. It's not impossible for the list to be correct, but it does become more and more unlikely the longer we wait.

Square Enix is also pretty known for leaking things early (FF 15, KH3, Hero in Smash, even Cloud in Smash 4, and potentially TWEWY 2) all leaked well in advance of their reveal. So far we've heard nothing surrounding another Square Enix character/Sora becoming playable in Smash. Again, not a hard deconfirm, just an interesting observation.

So in the end I see Geno being upgraded into a premium mii costume as a more likely outcome. Not only that, but I also think that Mallow is also going to get an upgraded costume. I don't think we're getting a Smithy costume at all.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

So if/when Geno gets in, besides the Mallow Hat, what other Mii Fighter costumes do you think he'll come with? Do you think he'll come with more Square Enix costumes (including the returning Chocobo hat), or will he come with a random grab bag of unrelated costumes (like Banjo and Byleth did)?

For either situation, here's what I think he could come with...

• Square Enix costumes
  1. Mallow (Super Mario RPG)
  2. Monk (Final Fantasy)
  3. Chocobo (Final Fantasy II)
  4. Moogle (Final Fantasy III)
  5. Randi (Secret of Mana)
  6. Sephiroth (Final Fantasy VII) + "One Winged Angel"
• "Grab bag" costumes
  1. Mallow (Super Mario RPG)
  2. Primid (Super Smash Bros. Brawl)
  3. Ryu (Breath of Fire)
  4. Doom Slayer (Doom)
  5. Cacodemon (Doom)
  6. Shovel Knight (Shovel Knight) + "Strike the Earth!"

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah I am aware of the fact that Nintendo took down some SMRPG music, and of the mii costume list.

The takedowns likely just means that SMRPG music is coming to Smash. It could come with Geno/Mallow costumes, or a full on playable fighter who knows? I know people say things like "Square would NEVER" do that; but I have little reason to believe them. The only time Square has been REALLY stingy is with Final Fantasy; Dragon Quest got fine enough representation by itself. And no they didn't add 2 music tracks for each character. That theory is stupid. The takedowns themselves are a "best case scenario" situation too, for all we know it may potentially mean nothing.

The Mii costume list is pretty old by this point, and it makes me wonder how someone managed to get the costumes for Banjo correct along with "leaking Mallow and Smithy" costumes. However, they missed Sans, all the SNK costumes, and all the Byleth costumes; if Geno gets in as a fighter (which I can't see happening earlier then E3), the list would almost be a year old at that point. It's not impossible for the list to be correct, but it does become more and more unlikely the longer we wait.

Square Enix is also pretty known for leaking things early (FF 15, KH3, Hero in Smash, even Cloud in Smash 4, and potentially TWEWY 2) all leaked well in advance of their reveal. So far we've heard nothing surrounding another Square Enix character/Sora becoming playable in Smash. Again, not a hard deconfirm, just an interesting observation.

So in the end I see Geno being upgraded into a premium mii costume as a more likely outcome. Not only that, but I also think that Mallow is also going to get an upgraded costume. I don't think we're getting a Smithy costume at all.

1. According to Fatman, the Mii costume guy knew about Sans however omit the list because Paragon got the C&D knowing Undertale content.
2. Mallow was never a costume in the first place so you mean premium. I don’t see how Mallow can be a premium compared to Geno. A hat is all I can see.
3. I wouldn’t be so quick calling the list old. If it’s like almost year 2 than yes it may be outdated information. If Geno and the costumes started development during last summer, than yes it sounds plausible hearing these costumes far in advance.
4. While the Mii costume guy didn’t hear about SNK costumes, he did get the Spirit Board. I believe Mii costume guy is literally Fatman contact that I won’t be surprised if he knew about the FE stages and spirits.

 

[owjies]

So if/when Geno gets in, besides the Mallow Hat, what other Mii Fighter costumes do you think he'll come with? Do you think he'll come with more Square Enix costumes (including the returning Chocobo hat), or will he come with a random grab bag of unrelated costumes (like Banjo and Byleth did)?

Hard to say, but my hope would be either an assortment of old school Square characters and/or Mario RPG franchise characters

for example:
Geno (I wouldn't mind Geno's costume returning alongside a full character, but Booster, Tifa, Randi, etc could also go here)
Mallow
Smithy (with Exor)
Fawful
Terra Branford
Crono (Chrono Trigger Theme)

 

[xpnc]

Yeah, but I'd imagine we aren't JUST getting a cacodemon outfit while completely ignoring Doomguy costume.

Have there been any DLC characters that released with 2 costumes from the same unrelated 3rd party series? I can't remember.

Yeah the one we just got

Mega Man.exe and Mega Man X are coming with Byleth

 

[MisterMike]

The Mii costume list is pretty old by this point, and it makes me wonder how someone managed to get the costumes for Banjo correct along with "leaking Mallow and Smithy" costumes. However, they missed Sans, all the SNK costumes, and all the Byleth costumes; if Geno gets in as a fighter (which I can't see happening earlier then E3), the list would almost be a year old at that point. It's not impossible for the list to be correct, but it does become more and more unlikely the longer we wait.

First, the Mii Costume List guy didn't miss the Sans costume. In fact, nobody missed it. Undertale content was known to be coming to the game for a while, hell one or two of them even had the MEGALOVANIA remix. The problem was that everyone assumed it was for a fighter rather than a costume, because by that point we had never gotten a music track alongside a Mii Costume. The source that the Mii Costume List guy got his info from thought similarly, and as such didn't include an Undertale name on the list.

Second, asking why a potential leaker potentially leaked this one thing but not this other things isn't a valid argument. I mean, what if he did? Would you have been satisfied with that, or would you have asked for a glass of milk to go alongside your cookie? No insider has complete control over what info they get, real or fake, it just sort of happens.

Third, the age of a leak is not indicative of it's validity, especially since we know a lot of the DLC content for Smash begins production up to a year in advance. I know it's very satisfying to be able to outright dismiss potential leaks and rumors like this, but I'd advise you to stop doing that, it's lazy.

Square Enix is also pretty known for leaking things early (FF 15, KH3, Hero in Smash, even Cloud in Smash 4, and potentially TWEWY 2) all leaked well in advance of their reveal. So far we've heard nothing surrounding another Square Enix character/Sora becoming playable in Smash. Again, not a hard deconfirm, just an interesting observation.

Hero being in Smash wasn't leaked by SquareEnix, it was found via datamining the game when it came out. Cloud also wasn't leaked by SquareEnix, in fact it barely got out before it's official reveal. There was only one guy who leaked it, and it was so vague that people only caught on to it after the fact.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Quick notes: Not allowed to talk about my contacts or rumors in the threads anymore. I can only talk about them on my wall. If you have questions, ask there or Discord.

-The staff wants me to talk about specific characters in the specific character threads. It can happen some here but it mostly has to stay on Geno.

Stuff people wanted me to comment on:

-Tales 25th anniversary is now official. Expect big things for Tales in the coming year. Again, the trademark thing that was done in the fall covers not only games but merchandise too, just like Banjo Kazooie got for its 20th anniversary. That said, Tales in Smash got a huge boost.

-DOOM stuff isn't surprising. Don't think it affects Cacomallow much though. Ubisoft costumes and now Arc Systems spirits show that big companies can have content without characters. People might hate it but Cacodemon could happen without a playable Doom Guy and that was always the case.

-Personally think a Direct is either coming on or going to be announced on the 28th. Again, I'll try to keep rumors and such to my wall and Discord.

Two big topics I wanted to cover in concerns to Geno:

-With the reveal of Byleth, Power of Six theory has taken a new turn and I'm going to go over it in my next post.

-I'm wanting to introduce a new theory called "Road to 100" theory and I want to map this out too. I'm not the first to think of this so I don't know who to specifically credit for the original observation but, again, I'll dissect that too.

Again, I try to be as transparent as possible so I'm free to people asking me on my wall or PMs here or on Discord. Just hit me up and I'll try to get to things as soon as I can.

 

[CannonStreak]

View attachment 259294

Quick notes: Not allowed to talk about my contacts or rumors in the threads anymore. I can only talk about them on my wall. If you have questions, ask there or Discord.

-The staff wants me to talk about specific characters in the specific character threads. It can happen some here but it mostly has to stay on Geno.

Stuff people wanted me to comment on:

-Tales 25th anniversary is now official. Expect big things for in the coming. Again, the trademark thing that was done in the fall covers not only games but merchandise too, just like Banjo Kazooie got for its 20th anniversary. That said, Tales in Smash got a huge boost.

-DOOM stuff isn't surprising. Don't think it affects Cacomallow much though. Ubisoft costumes and now Arc Systems spirits show that big companies can have content without characters. People might hate it but Cacodemon could happen without a playable Doom Guy and that was always the case.

-Personally think a Direct is either coming on or going to be announced on the 28th. Again, I'll try to keep rumors and such to my wall and Discord.

Two big topics I wanted to cover in concerns to Geno:

-With the reveal of Byleth, Power of Six theory has taken a new turn and I'm going to go over it in my next post.

-I'm wanting to introduce a new theory called "Road to 100" theory and I want to map this out too. I'm not the first to think of this so I don't know who to specifically credit for the original observation but, again, I'll dissect that too.

Again, I try to be as transparent as possible so I'm free to people asking me on my wall or PMs here or on Discord. Just hit me up and I'll try to get to things as soon as I can.

Welcome back, Fatman. Still confident about Geno getting in?

 

[Deleted member]

Such a shame that everything we talk has to be about Geno... even though it’s a Geno thread, there’s plenty of other things to talk about. I think discord is a better choice for socializing since the mods won’t nag you over and over about being off topic.

 

[Kewl0210]

"Road to 100 Theory" is one of the most exciting theory names so far.

P.S. I kinda don't think we're getting to 100.

 

[Andwooooo]

Is this Discord public for everyone or is it meant to be a dirty little secret for people in the know only?

 

[MattX20]

Quick notes: Not allowed to talk about my contacts or rumors in the threads anymore. I can only talk about them on my wall. If you have questions, ask there or Discord.

-The staff wants me to talk about specific characters in the specific character threads. It can happen some here but it mostly has to stay on Geno.

Stuff people wanted me to comment on:

-Tales 25th anniversary is now official. Expect big things for in the coming. Again, the trademark thing that was done in the fall covers not only games but merchandise too, just like Banjo Kazooie got for its 20th anniversary. That said, Tales in Smash got a huge boost.

-DOOM stuff isn't surprising. Don't think it affects Cacomallow much though. Ubisoft costumes and now Arc Systems spirits show that big companies can have content without characters. People might hate it but Cacodemon could happen without a playable Doom Guy and that was always the case.

-Personally think a Direct is either coming on or going to be announced on the 28th. Again, I'll try to keep rumors and such to my wall and Discord.

Two big topics I wanted to cover in concerns to Geno:

-With the reveal of Byleth, Power of Six theory has taken a new turn and I'm going to go over it in my next post.

-I'm wanting to introduce a new theory called "Road to 100" theory and I want to map this out too. I'm not the first to think of this so I don't know who to specifically credit for the original observation but, again, I'll dissect that too.

Again, I try to be as transparent as possible so I'm free to people asking me on my wall or PMs here or on Discord. Just hit me up and I'll try to get to things as soon as I can.

Good to hear from you again

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, last time on Dragon Ball Z, Power of Six theory mapped up hypothetical Mii costumes for when the Fighter's Pass was one and done. Again, quick recap, Power of Six theory suggests that every pack was originally going to have 6 costumes and bring back all 15 Smash 4 third party DLC Mii costumes. Here's how far we got before Byleth:

-Joker (4 Persona costumes, Knuckles and Tails, SEGA theme)

-Hero (4 Dragon Quest costumes, Geno and Chocobo, Square theme )

-Banjo (Goemon, 4 Megaman costumes, and Rocket Grunt or Sans, grab bag)

-Terry (3 SNK costumes, Akira, Jacky, and Heihachi, Fighting game theme)

-5 (Lloyd, Gil, Rathalos, Monster Hunter and two unknowns, Fantasy RPG sword theme)

What's interesting is what happened with 5, which ended up being Byleth from Fire Emblem, which correctly guessed the theme of the character, a fantasy RPG swordsman. We've seen that, except with Banjo, packs tend to come with costumes from the same company as the playable fighter. Gil and Lloyd are Namco and Rathalos and Monster Hunter are Capcom. Fire Emblem is Nintendo so it heavily suggests that Byleth's missing two costumes would be Nintendo too. Well, who are they? I think we conveniently got our answer in Blythe's presentation.

At the beginning of the pass we got a bonus Mii costume, Rex from Xenoblade 2. At the beginning of Season 2, we're getting yet another bonus in the form of the ancient armor from Breath of the Wild. Both of these Mii costumes are Mii swordsmen from fantasy RPGs. If we plug things in, we get this:

Blythe (AA Link, Rex, Gil, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos)

That's quite a coincidence. As a recap, these are the Mii costumes that are currently missing:

-Geno and Chocobo
-Lloyd and Gil
-Rathalos and Monster Hunter
-Heihachi

Like we originally theorized back in the fall, this heavily suggests 3 of the final 6 characters are Namco, Square, and Capcom. Our theory for Banjo originally being a dump for the Megaman costumes is supported because Blythe not only got the two missing Megaman costumes but his Mii costumes had nothing to do with him either. What does this suggest? My original theory was that Rocket Grunt was the late addition but in reality... I think it was Sans.

Right now we only have two indie costumes and they're both premium. Both were in the "dump" packs and I don't think this was a coincidence. I think these were decisions made after the Fighter's Pass was originally finalized, explaining their odd placement. There's strong evidence that we're getting more with one potential leak suggesting Kris from Deltarune and Knight from Hollow Knight. There's technically two others that haven't been made public so a "premium" indie costume per pack will likely happen for most of the packs.

So, circling back, I've noticed that with DLC that Nintendo kind of respects a certain order to things. Nintendo works on Nintendo stuff first then third parties its already worked with and then new companies before going back to Nintendo.

Smash 4: Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy (Nintendo), Ryu (Capcom), Cloud (Square Enix), Corrin (Nintendo), Bayonetta (SEGA/Platinum)

Smash Ultimate Fighter's Pass: Plant (Nintendo), Joker (SEGA/Atlus), Hero (Square/Armor Project), Banjo (Rare/Microsoft), Terry (SNK), and Byleth (Nintendo/Tecmo)

What can we infer from this? We can theorize that Season 2 will either start on a Nintendo character or a third party that Nintendo has already worked on for Smash. This means that our mystery Namco, Capcom, and, most importantly, Square rep have high chances of being 2020 reveals. That said, the wait for an answer for Geno, in theory, shouldn't be any later than probably September, with strong odds that, if in, he'd be one of the first 3 or 4.

 

[SSGuy]

Is this Discord public for everyone or is it meant to be a dirty little secret for people in the know only?

The Star Road Discord is public and open for everyone if you want to join.

I think both the thread and server are both terrific places to hang out and talk Geno. The more informative/speculation stuff goes here and the memes and off topic stuff can be in the server. I'll grab an invite link for you or I believe it is also on Operation StarFall's website.

 

[PatPrime]

So, last time on Dragon Ball Z, Power of Six theory mapped up hypothetical Mii costumes for when the Fighter's Pass was one and done. Again, quick recap, Power of Six theory suggests that every pack was originally going to have 6 costumes and bring back all 25 Smash 4 third party DLC Mii costumes. Here's how far we got before Byleth:

-Joker (4 Persona costumes, Knuckles and Tails, SEGA theme)

-Hero (4 Dragon Quest costumes, Geno and Chocobo, Square theme )

-Banjo (Goemon, 4 Megaman costumes, and Rocket Grunt or Sans, grab bag)

-Terry (3 SNK costumes, Akira, Jacky, and Heihachi, Fighting game theme)

-5 (Lloyd, Gil, Rathalos, Monster Hunter and two unknowns, Fantasy RPG sword theme)

What's interesting is what happened with 5, which ended up being Byleth from Fire Emblem, which correctly guessed the theme of the character, a fantasy RPG swordsman. We've seen that, except with Banjo, packs tend to come with costumes from the same company as the playable fighter. Gil and Lloyd are Namco and Rathalos and Monster Hunter are Capcom. Fire Emblem is Nintendo so it heavily suggests that Byleth's missing two costumes would be Nintendo too. Well, who are they? I think we conveniently got our answer in Blythe's presentation.

At the beginning of the pass we got a bonus Mii costume, Rex from Xenoblade 2. At the beginning of Season 2, we're getting yet another bonus in the form of the ancient armor from Breath of the Wild. Both of these Mii costumes are Mii swordsmen from fantasy RPGs. If we plug things in, we get this:

Blythe (AA Link, Rex, Gil, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos)

That's quite a coincidence. As a recap, these are the Mii costumes that are currently missing:

-Geno and Chocobo
-Lloyd and Gil
-Rathalos and Monster Hunter
-Heihachi

Like we originally theorized back in the fall, this heavily suggests 3 of the final 6 characters are Namco, Square, and Capcom. Our theory for Banjo originally being a dump for the Megaman costumes is supported because Blythe not only got the two missing Megaman costumes but his Mii costumes had nothing to do with him either. What does this suggest? My original theory was that Rocket Grunt was the late addition but in reality... I think it was Sans.

Right now we only have two indie costumes and they're both premium. Both were in the "dump" packs and I don't think this was a coincidence. I think these were decisions made after the Fighter's Pass was originally finalized, explaining their odd placement. There's strong evidence that we're getting more with one potential leak suggesting Kris from Deltarune and Knight from Hollow Knight. There's technically two others that haven't been made public so a "premium" indie costume per pack will likely happen for most of the packs.

So, circling back, I've noticed that with DLC that Nintendo kind of respects a certain order to things. Nintendo works on Nintendo stuff first then third parties its already worked with and then new companies before going back to Nintendo.

Smash 4: Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy (Nintendo), Ryu (Capcom), Cloud (Square Enix), Corrin (Nintendo), Bayonetta (SEGA/Platinum)

Smash Ultimate Fighter's Pass: Plant (Nintendo), Joker (SEGA/Atlus), Hero (Square/Armor Project), Banjo (Rare/Microsoft), Terry (SNK), and Byleth (Nintendo)

What can we infer from this? We can theorize that Season 2 will either start on a Nintendo character or a third party that Nintendo has already worked on for Smash. This means that our mystery Namco, Capcom, and, most importantly, Square rep have high chances of being 2020 reveals. That said, the wait for an answer for Geno, in theory, shouldn't be any later than probably September, with strong odds that, if in, he'd be one of the first 3 or 4.

It's an interesting theory but I have a question. Do you personally think Crash might FP6? Or do you think he would come later?

 

[Deleted member]

So, last time on Dragon Ball Z, Power of Six theory mapped up hypothetical Mii costumes for when the Fighter's Pass was one and done. Again, quick recap, Power of Six theory suggests that every pack was originally going to have 6 costumes and bring back all 25 Smash 4 third party DLC Mii costumes. Here's how far we got before Byleth:

-Joker (4 Persona costumes, Knuckles and Tails, SEGA theme)

-Hero (4 Dragon Quest costumes, Geno and Chocobo, Square theme )

-Banjo (Goemon, 4 Megaman costumes, and Rocket Grunt or Sans, grab bag)

-Terry (3 SNK costumes, Akira, Jacky, and Heihachi, Fighting game theme)

-5 (Lloyd, Gil, Rathalos, Monster Hunter and two unknowns, Fantasy RPG sword theme)

What's interesting is what happened with 5, which ended up being Byleth from Fire Emblem, which correctly guessed the theme of the character, a fantasy RPG swordsman. We've seen that, except with Banjo, packs tend to come with costumes from the same company as the playable fighter. Gil and Lloyd are Namco and Rathalos and Monster Hunter are Capcom. Fire Emblem is Nintendo so it heavily suggests that Byleth's missing two costumes would be Nintendo too. Well, who are they? I think we conveniently got our answer in Blythe's presentation.

At the beginning of the pass we got a bonus Mii costume, Rex from Xenoblade 2. At the beginning of Season 2, we're getting yet another bonus in the form of the ancient armor from Breath of the Wild. Both of these Mii costumes are Mii swordsmen from fantasy RPGs. If we plug things in, we get this:

Blythe (AA Link, Rex, Gil, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos)

That's quite a coincidence. As a recap, these are the Mii costumes that are currently missing:

-Geno and Chocobo
-Lloyd and Gil
-Rathalos and Monster Hunter
-Heihachi

Like we originally theorized back in the fall, this heavily suggests 3 of the final 6 characters are Namco, Square, and Capcom. Our theory for Banjo originally being a dump for the Megaman costumes is supported because Blythe not only got the two missing Megaman costumes but his Mii costumes had nothing to do with him either. What does this suggest? My original theory was that Rocket Grunt was the late addition but in reality... I think it was Sans.

Right now we only have two indie costumes and they're both premium. Both were in the "dump" packs and I don't think this was a coincidence. I think these were decisions made after the Fighter's Pass was originally finalized, explaining their odd placement. There's strong evidence that we're getting more with one potential leak suggesting Kris from Deltarune and Knight from Hollow Knight. There's technically two others that haven't been made public so a "premium" indie costume per pack will likely happen for most of the packs.

So, circling back, I've noticed that with DLC that Nintendo kind of respects a certain order to things. Nintendo works on Nintendo stuff first then third parties its already worked with and then new companies before going back to Nintendo.

Smash 4: Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy (Nintendo), Ryu (Capcom), Cloud (Square Enix), Corrin (Nintendo), Bayonetta (SEGA/Platinum)

Smash Ultimate Fighter's Pass: Plant (Nintendo), Joker (SEGA/Atlus), Hero (Square/Armor Project), Banjo (Rare/Microsoft), Terry (SNK), and Byleth (Nintendo)

What can we infer from this? We can theorize that Season 2 will either start on a Nintendo character or a third party that Nintendo has already worked on for Smash. This means that our mystery Namco, Capcom, and, most importantly, Square rep have high chances of being 2020 reveals. That said, the wait for an answer for Geno, in theory, shouldn't be any later than probably September, with strong odds that, if in, he'd be one of the first 3 or 4.

Do you personally think Geno may potentially get announced along with SMRPG snes online?

 

[CannonStreak]

Say, Fatmanonice , I believe you said something about a Direct being announced on the 28th of this month. If I may ask, why do you think that?

 

[Fatmanonice]

It's an interesting theory but I have a question. Do you personally think Crash might FP6? Or do you think he would come later?

Later for a variety of reasons.

-Aside from Banjo, Crash has been the most wanted Western character since MELEE. That's definitely an E3 caliber reveal.

-Sakurai has noted that Western companies are harder to work with because of the language barriers. This also suggests later in the pass.

-As my model shows, Nintendo seems to start with the easiest to work with (itself), then goes to companies it has already worked with, and then companies it hasn't worked with for Smash before repeating the cycle. There's no Activision/Blizzard content at all in Smash yet so it suggests that Crash would be after our hypothetical Capcom, Square, and Namco character, suggesting no earlier than the 4th or, rather, 9th full DLC pack.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

Such a shame that everything we talk has to be about Geno... even though it’s a Geno thread, there’s plenty of other things to talk about. I think discord is a better choice for socializing since the mods won’t nag you over and over about being off topic.

I would be more quick to join, but I always worry about joining too many servers to the point where it becomes less and less manageable lmao

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, fun new theory: "Road to 100." The good news, Smash Bros Ultimate is probably getting 100 characters! The bad news is that it's not in the way you would expect. I feel like Sakurai's intention with Ultimate was always to get to 100 characters but I think he's going to do it with a big ass loophole. Currently we have 75 original characters, right? WRONG! We actually have a lot more than that and I'll show the math:

75 original characters
7 Echoes
1 Alph
7 Koopalings
3 additional Heros

Add all these together and we get 93 characters (male and female variations don't count). It was confirmed that Season 2 would have 6 characters and... I think these are our final 6. My theory is that one of these characters will either be a double character or will have a separate character ALT, bringing Smash Ultimate up to 100 characters. So, final 6 characters... That's pretty daunting... But also super exciting!

These are the final 6 characters before Smash hits triple digits so Sakurai will definitely want to make them count. Who would Sakurai want to add to the first 100 Smash Bros characters? This is where history comes in. There are definitely character choices that go back to Brawl and even Melee that could nicely fill in these gaps. Again, Power of Six theory has given the strong suggestion that three would be Capcom, Namco and Square. From these companies, who would Sakurai choose to best please the Smash fanbase? On my end, I'm currently predicting the following characters:

Waluigi, Geno, Lloyd, Dante, Crash, and Master Chief.

All huge requests wanted for more than a decade. Perfect way to hit the 100 mark. What about the potential ALT or double character? I think four of these characters have potential.

-Geno miraculously has Mallow come with him.

-Lloyd has a switch in partner (probably Colette)

-Dante has a Vergil ALT? (Do they fight similarly? Don't play the series.)

-Crash has a Coco ALT (they play exactly the same in the games)

Lots of showstoppers with lots of potential. This is why I think these guys are our final 6/7 to technically get us to a 100 playable character roster. Guess we'll just have to see how things play out.

 

[Hinata]

-Dante has a Vergil ALT? (Do they fight similarly? Don't play the series.)

Not even remotely. Dante has a big ass broadsword, Vergil has a katana. Dante uses guns, Vergil does not. Even their auxiliary weapons that they get from bosses are completely different.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

So, fun new theory: "Road to 100." The good news, Smash Bros Ultimate is probably getting 100 characters! The bad news is that it's not in the way you would expect. I feel like Sakurai's intention with Ultimate was always to get to 100 characters but I think he's going to do it with a big ass loophole. Currently we have 75 original characters, right? WRONG! We actually have a lot more than that and I'll show the math:

75 original characters
7 Echoes
1 Alph
7 Koopalings
3 additional Heros

Add all these together and we get 93 characters (male and female variations don't count). It was confirmed that Season 2 would have 6 characters and... I think these are our final 6. My theory is that one of these characters will either be a double character or will have a separate character ALT, bringing Smash Ultimate up to 100 characters. So, final 6 characters... That's pretty daunting... But also super exciting!

These are the final 6 characters before Smash hits triple digits so Sakurai will definitely want to make them count. Who would Sakurai want to add to the first 100 Smash Bros characters? This is where history comes in. There are definitely character choices that go back to Brawl and even Melee that could nicely fill in these gaps. Again, Power of Six theory has given the strong suggestion that three would be Capcom, Namco and Square. From these companies, who would Sakurai choose to best please the Smash fanbase? On my end, I'm currently predicting the following characters:

Waluigi, Geno, Lloyd, Dante, Crash, and Master Chief.

All huge requests wanted for more than a decade. Perfect way to hit the 100 mark. What about the potential ALT or double character? I think four of these characters have potential.

-Geno miraculously has Mallow come with him.

-Lloyd has a switch in partner (probably Colette)

-Dante has a Vergil ALT? (Do they fight similarly? Don't play the series.)

-Crash has a Coco ALT (they play exactly the same in the games)

Lots of showstoppers with lots of potential. This is why I think these guys are our final 6/7 to technically get us to a 100 playable character roster. Guess we'll just have to see how things play out.

This probably sounds weird, and obviously I have no insider info but getting Chief would be weirder than getting Geno, in a WTF capacity imo. The idea that Sakurai could end it on Master Chief as well and not some kinda niche character like Monokuma or somthing else very sakurai-y is also hard to wrap my head around lmao. Although if sakurai really had to call it quits right there, I wouldn't have much right to complain, he's done pretty much every reasonable thing I've wanted him to do.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the Star Road server sounds great. But I'll stay here. Discord's never been my thing. But know you guys got my support there too.

Welcome back Fatmanonice the heart and soul of this thread is back!

Also songs besides Beware the Forests Mushrooms. I'd say Let's Play Geno! Or Fight a Stronger Boss!

 

[Droodle]

First, the Mii Costume List guy didn't miss the Sans costume. In fact, nobody missed it. Undertale content was known to be coming to the game for a while, hell one or two of them even had the MEGALOVANIA remix. The problem was that everyone assumed it was for a fighter rather than a costume, because by that point we had never gotten a music track alongside a Mii Costume. The source that the Mii Costume List guy got his info from thought similarly, and as such didn't include an Undertale name on the list.

Second, asking why a potential leaker potentially leaked this one thing but not this other things isn't a valid argument. I mean, what if he did? Would you have been satisfied with that, or would you have asked for a glass of milk to go alongside your cookie? No insider has complete control over what info they get, real or fake, it just sort of happens.

Third, the age of a leak is not indicative of it's validity, especially since we know a lot of the DLC content for Smash begins production up to a year in advance. I know it's very satisfying to be able to outright dismiss potential leaks and rumors like this, but I'd advise you to stop doing that, it's lazy.


Hero being in Smash wasn't leaked by SquareEnix, it was found via datamining the game when it came out. Cloud also wasn't leaked by SquareEnix, in fact it barely got out before it's official reveal. There was only one guy who leaked it, and it was so vague that people only caught on to it after the fact.

1. Undertale in Smash wasn't "well known" unless you believed the Paragon leak, which has been proven mostly false outside the E3 reveals. And it doesn't matter if one or two "leakers" stated Megalovania would be in Smash, if they didn't have any other valid information to share. And in the end, that still doesn't change the fact that this source knew about every costume in the September direct EXCEPT for Sans and Smithy/Mallow.

Also another conundrum arises if we think that the leaker just held back Sans because of Megalovania. What if the source also heard Beware the Mushrooms is also going to be in? Worst case, maybe they just assumed Geno is going to be a fighter so they didn't put him on the list?

2. I'm not saying that they can't skip certain bits and pieces of information, just that the longer we wait for those SMRPG costumes from the list; the more unlikely they become. The costume list was given back in July, which means that these costumes were done/known up to almost a year before Geno's potential release. Judging from info we know, most DLC fighters start development around 6 months before their reveal with the latter 3 months serving as their (the Smash teams) primary focus. Unless the costumes are done WAY in advance of the bulk of that character's development, and not nearly given as much security; I can't really see how someone would know about Mallow/Smithy costumes a year in advance, when they miss knowledge of literally every other mii costume from September to potentially July 2020.

In general, I imagine that Mii costumes; particularly those that surround a particular fighter's release are done/tested alongside that fighter. That would be the smart way to prevent leaks. Some others like Altair are probably done whenever they have the time (ie not alongside Byleth).

3. The age of a leak definitely has something to do with it's validity. I wouldn't really expect leaks from 2 years ago to be real. And I never dismissed the costume leak as being "too old" to be true right now either; just that the longer we wait for it, the more unlikely it becomes. For example, if by FP 5 Geno isn't revealed, that doesn't make the leak super likely to be true for FP 6 either.

An example of this would be the classic "Dante in Smash" leak which pretty much predicted everything right about DMC 5 pre-release, but got the Dante in Smash part wrong. If Dante ends up getting in, in FP 2 that doesn't magically make that leak from 2 years ago right. There's always the potential the Mii costume list is like that too, where it has bits and pieces of right information but still has some wrong things in it.

4. Hero himself wasn't leaked until after the game released, yes, but Vergeben had stated that a Square Enix character would get in all the way since August.
2018. I agree with Cloud.

1. According to Fatman, the Mii costume guy knew about Sans however omit the list because Paragon got the C&D knowing Undertale content.
2. Mallow was never a costume in the first place so you mean premium. I don’t see how Mallow can be a premium compared to Geno. A hat is all I can see.
3. I wouldn’t be so quick calling the list old. If it’s like almost year 2 than yes it may be outdated information. If Geno and the costumes started development during last summer, than yes it sounds plausible hearing these costumes far in advance.
4. While the Mii costume guy didn’t hear about SNK costumes, he did get the Spirit Board. I believe Mii costume guy is literally Fatman contact that I won’t be surprised if he knew about the FE stages and spirits.

1. Sure Paragon claimed to have been hit by a C & D; but there is no actual proof of it. Even Sabi posted "proof" about her C&D, and many people still dismissed it as fake.
2. I'm saying both Geno and Mallow will end up getting Mii costumes. Is it far-fetched? Yes, but still within the real of possibility.
3. I have never claimed that the leak is completely out of the running. Just that the longer we wait the more unlikely it gets. Or at least, I think that's what I said.
4. To be fair, the spirit board isn't that good of a "leak". I know many people who already assumed that those characters would be in the spirit board. Besides, he didn't really mention that originally; which means that is.

Again, I am not completely disregarding the mii costume list leak completely; but the leak itself warrants reasonable amounts of doubt.
It may just be my bias too, because I think it's pretty dumb that the Smash team would create these costumes so far ahead of their official release, and before that fighter has even entered serious development too. Just alone with Byleth, I can tell that Sakurai is the type of guy to minimize outsiders from having a big hint towards who the fighter could be until a week or 2 before the actual reveal. I can't imagine he allows potentially important costumes to be known so far in advance of the fighter's reveal. You're pretty much asking for leaks at that point.

 

[Megadoomer]

Whats the point of NDAs? Why don't they just tell us who the DLC is instead of making us waiting several months?

One way of looking at it is that it's more exciting to get a reveal trailer for a character that you're looking forward to, rather than reading an interview with exchanges like "So, is [insert character here] in Smash Bros.?" "Yes."

 

[volbound1700]

Whats the point of NDAs? Why don't they just tell us who the DLC is instead of making us waiting several months?

I asked the same thing. I think Nintendo is using this DLC content to push people to watch their Directs. How many people show up to watch the directs hoping for a Smash character to be announced? It keeps the attention and $$$ flowing for Nintendo.

Geno is highly more likely than Doomguy in the scheme of things so even if CacoMallow is fake, it doesn't hurt Geno's chances a lot.

 

[HudU]

I haven't lost hope for Geno. I don't think he will be mii costumed either. If that were the case, how would he be coming with 2 songs? (Assuming the music takedowns are his songs coming with him, which seems likely).

Everything lining up in terms of leaks and development times seems too much to be a coincidence when it comes to Geno. When people lose faith though, its hard for me to keep my faith as well, but as long as we know all the evidence for his support, and that there isn't really any valid evidence against him, I think we'll be fine. Sure, the Cacomallow thing may come off as a hit (when it comes to Doom Guy not having much of a chance-) but to me, Even before this information came out, I figured the Cacodemon mii would be similar to Altair anyway, and come with Geno as a bonus costume. (I mentioned this in predictions I made back on page 2308 and 2297 https://smashboards.com/threads/gen...-fighters-pass-2-speculation.446378/page-2297) <<<Scroll to the bottom

-Idk, it just seemed odd to me that they would work on 2 fighters at once, if Cacodemon was coming with DoomGuy and Mallow was coming with Geno.

So when it comes down to it-
-Music takedowns
-Leaked mii costume (Person said crash would be coming aswell with that list, so it seems even more likely after the recent twitter leaks)
-Geno rumors in NOA offices Nov 2018, Supposed DLC 2 pitch times (Read Fatmanonice 's essay for more info) <<Its a good read, I recommend it regardless
-Development times (typically a year)
-Missing costume, didn't come with Hero

I still have hope, and even if Cacomallow were fake (which I still doubt given what I thought days before), there is still plenty of evidence. If we had hope before Cacomallow, we can still have hope now.

 

[Giga Kaiju]

CacoMallow's leak certainly took a hot, eh? Goddamn it. I wish it's part of a contract obligation at this point but you never know with these type of things.

I'll lower my expectations in that case. The more time it passes, the more I am starting to doubt Geno too. There's the chance we might get an updated Mii Costume of him with a mask instead of just the hat. Similar to Sans and Cuphead.

I'll say Geno's chances went from 80/70% to 50%. Still high but not that much. It can go anywhere.

.

 

[StarLight42]

Oh no, I was like 70% sure Geno would be costumed before Cacomallow. Even after, I wasn't on the side of Cacomallow being real; but I wasn't fully discounting it either.

To me, Cacomallow had always been Geno's biggest boon in terms of getting in. But as time goes on and on, the leak keeps on taking hits.

So now (after the Doom interview) I'm fully thinking Geno will be costumed; when before I was only 70% sure.

(just so i don't look hypocritical, no, i was not saying geno could be a costume a few days ago because of cacomallow, I said that because I don't think the Fighter's Pass style fits the type of character Geno is, as much as I want him. There's various workarounds though, and Sakurai did get Three Houses in and still pretended it was a "new series", so we'll see what happens, fingers crossed)

 

[Deleted member]

CacoMallow's leak certainly took a hot, eh? Goddamn it. I wish it's part of a contract obligation at this point but you never know with these type of things.

I'll lower my expectations in that case. The more time it passes, the more I am starting to doubt Geno too. There's the chance we might get an updated Mii Costume of him with a mask instead of just the hat. Similar to Sans and Cuphead.

I'll say Geno's chances went from 80/70% to 50%. Still high but not that much. It can go anywhere.

.

I have no idea why people are starting to doubt Geno because of Cacodemon. Cadodemon can still happen without Doomguy. Just like Altair with no Ubisoft rep. Geno has more going for him than a costume from another franchise.