General Retro Newcomer Discussion

[Mr Gentleman]

I think Mike Jones is the only one with a viable moveset to even pull from. excitebike just doesn't make sense as a fighter. and from those interviews with Sakurai I think he thinks the same way.

that is if we do get a retro character (as everyone else has said)

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I'm not banking on a retro this round. Smash Ultimate has barely announced anything new, yet just everyone returning shattered every expectation we'd had. I won't even take a new Pokémon as guaranteed anymore.

Besides, "Sakurai has never not added a retro" is as fanrule-y as "Ridley is too big to be playable!" "We can't get Ryu because Capcom already has a rep!" "Snake will never be back because Konami imploded!" "Daisy wouldn't make sense as a Peach clone!"

I don't know if there are too many viable retros anymore - many concepts could easily work as stages (Excitebike track, etc), or as a combination of another character (DHD referenced all of the zapper games, not just Duck Hunt). Most of the "we should have XYZ retro in Smash" is a way for people to say "I want a revival of series XYZ since that's what happened with Kid Icarus!" And based on the graph posted...

Spoiler

...it's actually the newer characters that are underrepresented.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I'm not banking on a retro this round. Smash Ultimate has barely announced anything new, yet just everyone returning shattered every expectation we'd had. I won't even take a new Pokémon as guaranteed anymore.

Besides, "Sakurai has never not added a retro" is as fanrule-y as "Ridley is too big to be playable!" "We can't get Ryu because Capcom already has a rep!" "Snake will never be back because Konami imploded!" "Daisy wouldn't make sense as a Peach clone!"

I don't know if there are too many viable retros anymore - many concepts could easily work as stages (Excitebike track, etc), or as a combination of another character (DHD referenced all of the zapper games, not just Duck Hunt). Most of the "we should have XYZ retro in Smash" is a way for people to say "I want a revival of series XYZ since that's what happened with Kid Icarus!" And based on the graph posted...

...it's actually the newer characters that are underrepresented.

That graph really does show just how much love the NES era has gotten already, as well as the low amount of GBA and DS characters.

 

[smashingDoug]

Smash needs more handheld characters wow

 

[Zekersaurus]

It' hard to guess this because the character is typically from a nintendo franchise that has not been relevant in the past 20 years, and usually comes completely out of left field.

That said, I think Earthworm Jim or Gex would be a good pick but neither are 1st party franchises.

However, Captain N, Mach Rider, or a character from Excite Bike, or Shin Onigashima could work.

 

[VodkaHaze]

My guess is Professor Hector from Gyromite and Stack Up, since not only is he retro, but he'd also add to the Gyromite franchise and he's a character no one asked for.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

My guess is Professor Hector from Gyromite and Stack Up, since not only is he retro, but he'd also add to the Gyromite franchise and he's a character no one asked for.

No one?
I'm the guy who made Professor Hector's support thread during Smash 4.

https://smashboards.com/threads/creator-of-r-o-b-professor-hector-ready-for-smash-4.340042/

It only had like 3 supporters, so, I did not bring it back for Smash Ultimate.

 

[NintenZ]

To be honest, with smaller roster numbers I don't think a retro pick is a high priority.

If we were to get one, it would have been Takamaru, but since that ship has sailed, I think it will be no one this time around.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

I think a retro will certantly happen! BUT, not for the purpose of "Retro", but because whoever getting picked will be unique, and make a difference for the roster, and their eventual legacy. I don't think they do it to fill a quota, but I think something we would view as "Retro pick", even if it might not even be picked by Sakurai en the team for the purpose of Retro pick.

 

[lordvaati]

If I had to play a little Devil's Advocate I'd say the best surprise retro rep at this point would be Cranky Kong.
Since he's the Original DK it would be a nice little Easter Egg, plus he has flexible options thanks to Tropical Freeze.

 

[Juliusaurus]

If I had to play a little Devil's Advocate I'd say the best surprise retro rep at this point would be Cranky Kong.
Since he's the Original DK it would be a nice little Easter Egg, plus he has flexible options thanks to Tropical Freeze.

I like the way you think! Cranky could represent both Tropical Freeze as well as the arcade Donkey Kong. Using several 8-bit moves from that game, like throwing pixelated barrels, oil cans with fire guys, and bouncing jacks. Topping things off with his Final Smash of drinking a potion to transform into a massive 8-bit Donkey Kong, stomping around the stage, grinning from ear to ear.

Buuuut, Cranky would most likely be fighting for a spot with K. Rool and Dixie, and I don't think most fans want that to happen.

 

[Foxy Alopex]

I was thinking of Pauline to be a retro choice but after seeing her in the background of the New Donk City stage that puts her out so I can't think of any other retro choices besides Simon Belmont, The Cheetahmen, Mach Rider, Altered Beast or Lip.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

Truth be told, we're nearly out of first-party 8-bit era characters that could really bring something to the table. Many of the characters passed around like Balloon Fighter, Excite Bike, Mach Rider, etc all are one-trick-ponies that would require a severe amount of made up abilities to make them be able to do anything other than their one ability in their own games.

Then compound that with the knowledge that there will be less newcomers overall this time around. It makes going through all that trouble to bring back a character from a series that hasn't seen much, if any, action for some decades, and thus lower exposure fans, seem like a lower priority. Remember, Takamaru was explicitly left out of Smash 4 because he was too obscure, and things aren't any better for him in Ultimate. I'd imagine as time goes on, many of those other less-known NES characters will, or already have, suffer this fate also.

I'm sure we'll get some out-of-the-blue surprise character, but I don't think it will necessarily be from so long ago.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Truth be told, we're nearly out of first-party 8-bit era characters that could really bring something to the table. Many of the characters passed around like Balloon Fighter, Excite Bike, Mach Rider, etc all are one-trick-ponies that would require a severe amount of made up abilities to make them be able to do anything other than their one ability in their own games.

Mike Jones from Star Tropics seems to be the only one that has more moves that is not based around one thing. Also, Ayumi Tachibana from Famicom Detective Club was planned for Melee (if the source stating that Sakurai said such was accurate). Edit: Forgot Lip from Panel De Pon as a Retro character.

I'm sure we'll get some out-of-the-blue surprise character, but I don't think it will necessarily be from so long ago.

How long ago are we talking? Earlier 2000s? Gamecube and DS era?

 

[MacDaddyNook]

Mike Jones from Star Tropics seems to be the only one that has more moves that is not based around one thing. Also, Ayumi Tachibana from Famicom Detective Club was planned for Melee (if the source stating that Sakurai said such was accurate).



How long ago are we talking? Earlier 2000s? Gamecube and DS era?

Mike and Ayumi still suffer from the same problem, if even worse, than Takamaru does. If being Japan-only kills Takamaru's chance, then I don't see things being too great for Ayumi. And Star Tropics is more-or-less completely forgotten by Nintendo at this point; with only fans of Smash looking to find who to bring in even knowing about Mike these days. I could always, and have been in the past, wrong, but even they come off to what would be low priority if any at all.

As for a time frame, that's a good question. I'm just going by the general consensus that "retro" refers to the NES, and possibly early SNES, Era. An early 2000's character would be pretty old by today so I could count everything up to the DS in that umbrella, honestly.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Mike and Ayumi still suffer from the same problem, if even worse, than Takamaru does. If being Japan-only kills Takamaru's chance, then I don't see things being too great for Ayumi. And Star Tropics is more-or-less completely forgotten by Nintendo at this point; with only fans of Smash looking to find who to bring in even knowing about Mike these days. I could always, and have been in the past, wrong, but even they come off to what would be low priority if any at all.

Good points. I forgot to add Lip to my earlier post, so what do you think about her?

As for a time frame, that's a good question. I'm just going by the general consensus that "retro" refers to the NES, and possibly early SNES, Era. An early 2000's character would be pretty old by today so I could count everything up to the DS in that umbrella, honestly.

Hmm....a pick that nobody would see coming is Alexia from Eternal Darkness (gamecube era) or Magical Starsign Hero/Heroine from the Magical Starsign series (DS).

Maybe Ashley from WarioWare would count as a DS era character since she started on the Wario Ware Touched game.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Good points. I forgot to add Lip to my earlier post, so what do you think about her?



Hmm....a pick that nobody would see coming is Alexia from Eternal Darkness (gamecube era) or Magical Starsign Hero/Heroine from the Magical Starsign series (DS).

Maybe Ashley from WarioWare would count as a DS era character since she started on the Wario Ware Touched game.

Lip suffers from the same issue as mike and ayumi of being region exclusive, probably not gonna happen

 

[Idon]

Really hoping it's an SMT rep. That series is older than Pokemon.

 

[Juliusaurus]

Lip isn't really retro... She comes from the SNES era. And so far, "retro" isn't about relative age, but rather actual beginnings. And there just aren't very many good candidates left that seem important enough. If only Villager didn't have the Balloon Fight move, that character would've been so perfect here. Acting as a representative of a very important early NES/Famicom game that Nintendo themselves often portray in high regards and also would act as a tribute to the late Satoru Iwata, which you'd think Sakurai would want to do anyway considering how close they were.

But, now we're left with nobody super important, and I'm thinking we just shouldn't get anyone instead of trying to get someone that wouldn't be worthy anyway.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

Good points. I forgot to add Lip to my earlier post, so what do you think about her?



Hmm....a pick that nobody would see coming is Alexia from Eternal Darkness (gamecube era) or Magical Starsign Hero/Heroine from the Magical Starsign series (DS).

Maybe Ashley from WarioWare would count as a DS era character since she started on the Wario Ware Touched game.

Lip is in one of the strangest positions I have seen. One one hand, she is pretty much Japanese exclusive; although I did encounter her game being available to play on a 2003 Virgin Airlines flight's onboard entrainment from the US to UK once. Her series, on the other hand, has made numerous international appearances and has been a part of the franchises included in Smash (Yoshi, Pokemon and Animal Crossing). I can't say she has the best chance, but her series isn't obscure, only she is.

As for Alexia, ED isn't the best known series out there and would probably be overlooked (though I'd kill for a stage featuring The Sanity Affects). I'm not too knowledgeable on Magical Starshine, but it did get a worldwide release, but I don't think it's all too popular.

Ashley is in the best position out of the characters mentioned; she's very popular and pretty well known. I wouldn't consider her retro simply because she's still active today.

 

[Giveaway412]

Ashley debuted on the DS. She's not Retro.

I think you guys are really discounting the possibilities Mach Rider has, that make him more than a "one-trick pony". Obviously riding a motorcycle would be his main ability(I imagine he'd ride it all the time, unlike Wario), but said motorcycle has guns, he himself has a gun, and his game has explosive barrels, oil slicks, and possibly even Quadjumpers to pull from. I'd say he has more than enough for a decent moveset.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Ashley debuted on the DS. She's not Retro.

I think you guys are really discounting the possibilities Mach Rider has, that make him more than a "one-trick pony". Obviously riding a motorcycle would be his main ability(I imagine he'd ride it all the time, unlike Wario), but said motorcycle has guns, he himself has a gun, and his game has explosive barrels, oil slicks, and possibly even Quadjumpers to pull from. I'd say he has more than enough for a decent moveset.

I thought it might be interesting if Mach Rider could somehow implement his crazy time reversal death animation into his move set. Maybe it could be a teleport recovery move where he breaks apart in one location and reforms in another location.

I think Mach Rider would be interesting choice due to how much he differs from the rest of the characters in the roster, especially the retro characters already present. Instead a cutesy characters like Ice Climbers, Pit, or Duck Hunt, you could have a post-apocalyptic biker with a futuristic motorcycle, still a retro character but a character with a drastically different tone to the character.

 

[Juliusaurus]

Mach Rider just isn't very important of a game or a character. But I suppose neither was Ice Climbers when they joined the roster. Even still, would feel wrong to get Mach Rider over Balloon Fighter and Excite Biker, simply because of how much more prestigious those games are.

It'd be like getting Urban Champion or Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, they're just not valuable, despite being retro.

 

[Oddball]

Mach Rider just isn't very important of a game or a character. But I suppose neither was Ice Climbers when they joined the roster. Even still, would feel wrong to get Mach Rider over Balloon Fighter and Excite Biker, simply because of how much more prestigious those games are.

It'd be like getting Urban Champion or Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, they're just not valuable, despite being retro.

ice Climbers wasn't exactly a game held in high regard before Smash, certainly not as much as Balloon Fighter or Excite Biker would have been.

 

[Juliusaurus]

That's what I said... They're the exception, so I suppose anybody can really happen, though everyone since Ice Climber (including Mr. G&W) have held some more historical significance.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Mach Rider just isn't very important of a game or a character. But I suppose neither was Ice Climbers when they joined the roster. Even still, would feel wrong to get Mach Rider over Balloon Fighter and Excite Biker, simply because of how much more prestigious those games are.

It'd be like getting Urban Champion or Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, they're just not valuable, despite being retro.

The Ice Climbers only were considered because they could fill the quota of being an NES representative. The same kind of of mentality for Ulitmate is what Mach Rider would be counting on to get in.

 

[Ura]

If there was a retro in the vain of Ice Climbers and Pit (Little Mac to I guess), then I believe it will be Andy from Advance Wars, bias aside.

Famicom Wars turns 30 this year (coincing with Smash Ultimate's release) and it's essentially the longest running franchise from Nintendo's NES era not represented in Smash.

Andy himself didn't debut in the game but he would still be representing the over-reaching Wars series that includes Famicom Wars and is also the first central protagonist of any Wars game so he's like Marth in that sense. Andy would also be dual representing the NES/GBA through his appearance.

And unlike other retro's, Wars has the benefit of having notoriety from all sides of the world. Advance Wars is a beloved and critically acclaimed series by Western fans and Japanese fans would know the series from the 6 games that were released before 2001. So Andy wouldn't have the same problem Takamaru did or even Mike Jones would have to be added in Smash.

Any support the franchise could have gotten through the Smash Ballot is a bonus.

EDIT: I should also add that the series ties to Fire Emblem is something Sakurai could make note of. Advance Wars was a huge reason why Fire Emblem even made it to the West in the first place and other turn-based strategy games at that.

 

[Juliusaurus]

I wouldn't consider Advance Ware retro for the same reason I wouldn't consider Little Mac retro. They both became franchises that expanded beyond their early years and even made names for themselves in later generations (though Punch-Out will always be remembered for its Arcade and NES games, the Wii version was enough to make it a modern franchise in time for Smash).

Buuuut, Advance Wars has been absent for so long, it's kinda hard to call it a modern franchise anyway.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I still think having Star Man as a choice would be viable. Comes from a wrestling game, is memorable amongst the rest of the cast (barring The Amazon), would only need an FS and can introduce a grappler as a character type.

Also, Pro Wrestling is the poster boy for old, clunky translations.

I'm not banking on a retro this round. Smash Ultimate has barely announced anything new, yet just everyone returning shattered every expectation we'd had. I won't even take a new Pokémon as guaranteed anymore.

Besides, "Sakurai has never not added a retro" is as fanrule-y as "Ridley is too big to be playable!" "We can't get Ryu because Capcom already has a rep!" "Snake will never be back because Konami imploded!" "Daisy wouldn't make sense as a Peach clone!"

I don't know if there are too many viable retros anymore - many concepts could easily work as stages (Excitebike track, etc), or as a combination of another character (DHD referenced all of the zapper games, not just Duck Hunt). Most of the "we should have XYZ retro in Smash" is a way for people to say "I want a revival of series XYZ since that's what happened with Kid Icarus!" And based on the graph posted...

...it's actually the newer characters that are underrepresented.

If only more people asked for Ryuta/Agent J...

 

[Ura]

I wouldn't consider Advance Ware retro for the same reason I wouldn't consider Little Mac retro. They both became franchises that expanded beyond their early years and even made names for themselves in later generations (though Punch-Out will always be remembered for its Arcade and NES games, the Wii version was enough to make it a modern franchise in time for Smash).

Buuuut, Advance Wars has been absent for so long, it's kinda hard to call it a modern franchise anyway.

I mean it pretty much is a retro franchise given that it started in 1988. Of all the significant franchises that started in the NES, Wars is the last one not represented with a playable character.

And hell the series could be considered retro by any stretch. It's last entry was a decade ago and the the games that Andy himself starred in are over 15 years ago. Being a series that began in 1988 in addition to what I mentioned is why I believe it can have a good chance as a retro should there even be one.

I would attribute Little Mac's inclusion to Smash to the NES Punch-Out a whole lot more than the Wii game really.

 

[Juliusaurus]

I don't consider "retro" to be a relative term to "old", that's not how Sakurai has picked retro characters so far anyway. They've all been more "beginning" rather than "old" characters.

Not that we've ever gotten newcomers that were last relevant more than a decade before their inclusion into Smash. That is, unless they were from the beginnings of Nintendo's foray into gaming. Geno and K. Rool sure would change that though... But, would you consider them retro? I wouldn't.

 

[StarDustStorm]

Lip, the rest I wanted were deconfirmed such as Takamaru.

Lip is a Fairy, not a Witch.

Basically, Lip is not a sorcerer.

Lip wants to be a magician in Captain Rainbow.

Puzzle League was localized, the characters were just removed from the franchise. Puzzle League has had regular installments including a recent appearance as a DLC minigame in Animal Crossing New Leaf, so I don't even know why it's still being grouped with the retro characters. I'll just say people are trying too hard to find a category Lip can easily fit into that would therefore give her a justifiable reason to be included.

Lip has been absent since her first appearance, aside from a Cameo on the DS games. She was replaced by Furil (Brawl's sticker called her Lip, which is an error.) her daughter in the Nintendo Puzzle Collection. Also on Pokémon Puzzle Challenge (The only way to play Panel De Pon on newer consoles outside of Japan.), you can access a Panel De Pon easter egg by inputing specific buttons on the title screen. Yes. this also works on the 3DS VC version of the game and versions outside of Japan.
There's a couple of reskinned Panel De Pons in Japan such as the Gameboy game Yoshi and Pokémon and the Generic Planet Puzzle League DS/I. Seemed like they tried to take out the fairy elements to appeal to more people. But doesn't really work out well in Japan especially.
DOES NOT WORK on Pokémon Puzzle League...

Also the quote speaks for itself, so there's nothing else to add about those answers.

 

[Ura]

I don't consider "retro" to be a relative term to "old", that's not how Sakurai has picked retro characters so far anyway. They've all been more "beginning" rather than "old" characters.

Not that we've ever gotten newcomers that were last relevant more than a decade before their inclusion into Smash. That is, unless they were from the beginnings of Nintendo's foray into gaming. Geno and K. Rool sure would change that though... But, would you consider them retro? I wouldn't.

I wouldn't divulge in to the mental gymnastics of being a "retro".

Wars is a series that celebrates it's 30th anniversary this year and is among the last long-running Nintendo franchises that started in the NES era not in Smash. Andy is the first central protagonist of that franchise. That's all there is to it for me (well in addition to the factors I mentioned before).

In no way am I even insinuating that Andy is a "shoe-in" or anything like that. Hell if there's no retro spot i'm almost certain he won't make it. I'm just saying Andy has a chance this time if Sakurai were to look back at an old NES series to represent even if he didn't make his debut appearance in the game. He is to Wars what Marth is to Fire Emblem.

K. Rool and Geno would not get in to retro status. They're inclusions would be primarily on the Ballot.

 

[KoalaNut]

Dig Dug. I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few people supporting this one, but he's a Namco property and has a bit of variety within his kit. I Highly, HIGHLY doubt this one is on Sakurai's radar because he's an obscure arcade character with not a large fanbase. Although, Sakurai has a track record of putting obscure characters (Game and Watch and ROB come to mind) in the spotlight so you never know

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Dig Dug. I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few people supporting this one, but he's a Namco property and has a bit of variety within his kit. I Highly, HIGHLY doubt this one is on Sakurai's radar because he's an obscure arcade character with not a large fanbase. Although, Sakurai has a track record of putting obscure characters (Game and Watch and ROB come to mind) in the spotlight so you never know

Welcome to Smashboards!

Strangely enough we actually did have dig dug content in smash 4, you can get dig dug's sprite as apart of Pac-Mans uptaunt and in smash run the Pooka are enemies. Dig Dug is an arcade icon, but it seems unlikely that we would get him as an actually character, mainly because I think Namco would try to promote some of their more popular franchises (Tekken, Tales of, etc.).

Hey maybe will see him as an assist trophy, if Bomberman can be one maybe Dig Dug could potentially show up.

 

[KoalaNut]

Welcome to Smashboards!

Strangely enough we actually did have dig dug content in smash 4, you can get dig dug's sprite as apart of Pac-Mans uptaunt and in smash run the Pooka are enemies. Dig Dug is an arcade icon, but it seems unlikely that we would get him as an actually character, mainly because I think Namco would try to promote some of their more popular franchises (Tekken, Tales of, etc.).

Hey maybe will see him as an assist trophy, if Bomberman can be one maybe Dig Dug could potentially show up.

Most likely an assist trophy, but another arcade character that hasn't appeared in a Nintendo game for 35 years is Stanley from Donkey Kong 3. Yes, there was a third Donkey Kong arcade game. Granted, it was a Galaga clone, but it featured a character named Stanley. A gardener who used a spraying tool (similar to Game and Watch's Neutral B) to scare off bees and Donkey Kong himself! But really that's where his moveset options end and considering how hard Donkey Kong 3 flopped it's highly unlikely as a playable character, probably another assist trophy option. But this year will mark the 35th anniversary of Donkey Kong 3 sooooooooooo..... Possibly?

 

[StarDustStorm]

Most likely an assist trophy, but another arcade character that hasn't appeared in a Nintendo game for 35 years is Stanley from Donkey Kong 3. Yes, there was a third Donkey Kong arcade game. Granted, it was a Galaga clone, but it featured a character named Stanley. A gardener who used a spraying tool (similar to Game and Watch's Neutral B) to scare off bees and Donkey Kong himself! But really that's where his moveset options end and considering how hard Donkey Kong 3 flopped it's highly unlikely as a playable character, probably another assist trophy option. But this year will mark the 35th anniversary of Donkey Kong 3 sooooooooooo..... Possibly?

He was a trophy in Melee.

 

[FooltheFlames]

For me, it's gotta be Lip! Most definitely! B-)

Edit: Forgot Lip from Panel De Pon as a Retro character.

I was waiting for someone to mention her! ^^
You never disappoint Oracle~

Lip suffers from the same issue as mike and ayumi of being region exclusive, probably not gonna happen

That never stopped Marth or Roy when it came to Melee

Lip isn't really retro... She comes from the SNES era.

Dude, anything SNES is totally retro material. That was before even 3D came out for games! Your ideas of what count as retro and what doesnt seem very strange to me, sorry to say. I guarantee you if were to ask most people (especially the younger kids from today) if game systems before 3D came out were retro or not they'd prolly say yes. I mean, it's been over 20 years now since the SNES era ended, and they've done and made a SNES Classic for us to play with cuz you can't even connect an original SNES to most flat screens nowadays. And that's word of mouth coming from Nintendo saying the SNES is now "classic".

 

[KoalaNut]

He was a trophy in Melee.

Did not know that lol, never really a Melee player. If anything, that raises his chances ever so slightly. Then there's the issue of relevancy, a key factor in how Sakurai picks characters. So extremely unlikely

 

[Juliusaurus]

So far what we categorize as "retro" are all from very early NES, hardware, or Game & Watch. It's not because they're old, it's because they represent the first steps of Nintendo in gaming. SNES isn't that, even late NES isn't that. We're all confusing retro for old, when that wasn't ever really the case for the characters in this category chosen so far.

Think of them as the forefathers of Nintendo gaming.