Official General Post-DLC Discussion [Closed]

[Megadoomer]

Snake has that E10 rating going against him

I'm not sure if this is a valid reason - Smash 4 got the same rating as Brawl by PEGI (Europe's ESRB equivalent) and CERO (Japan's equivalent), so I can't see the rating being a reason to keep Snake out when only one territory seems to have any possible issues with it (especially since Brawl's T rating had nothing to do with Snake's inclusion).

 

[SwordOfSeals]

To be fair, he is an iconic character if you're a gamer.
Seriously, ask anybody who isn't a gamer, who is , and .
"Mario" "Mario" "Mario"
"Sonic" "Sonic" "Sonic"
"Pacman" "Pacman" "Pacman"

Now ask who is.
"Some COD soldier"
"US Soldier"
"Arnold Schwarzenegger"
Some other absurd names
Not saying Snake isn't popular, he just isn't well known outside of the gaming community. Same with . However, there is no doubt Snake left his mark in the industry.

Lol why do you think this is DLC only GAMERS would really buy DLC which to a strong gaming audience, these characters are pretty iconic.

 

[Giga Kaiju]

A new game mode alongside new characters/Mii costumes/stages would be nice...

Specially one similar to Melee's Adventure Mode. Just saying-

 

[pupNapoleon]

...Is this a joke? Pokemon Trainer's design is by far more everchanging and average yet you continuously refer to them as an Icon instead of Snake, who at the very least contains super consistent design elements in each game? Even then, I do not think wearing a different Sneaking Suit hardly counts as "Changing Design". Have you ever seen Zelda? Her design always changes pretty "radically" every New Zelda game. Much more than Snake and less than the Pokemon Trainers, those this not make her an icon?

Every argument you have with this character sounds like you continually belittle Snake for no logical reason other than to stir up pointless controversy about the character. Before you continue to argue about pointless "facts" you've convinced yourself that exists, consider characters already in the game as well. I've yet to see a good point from you about this character, and you constantly bashing them is getting very tiring to read.

I'm actually a fan of Snake. No need for a moderator to get irrational, isn't that your duty?
I just question how his fandom making irrational jumps. Such as arguing that he is visually iconic.
You know, stating that he is visually iconic, and then giving no example at all of what makes Snake, Snake.
Unlike being a blue turtle, a red plumber in a letter-cap, or a green elf with an entire emblem to call his own.
Hell... even Cloud's specific sword, and Lara Croft's boobs in a T, are iconic.
What exactly does Snake have? The franchise seems to be aware of this, and thusly added the eye patch to try to alleviate the clear issue at hand.

I also never mentioned Pokemon Trainer once in my response, this seems to be your own personal bias against me showing, so thanks for making more than evident to anyone reading the conversation.
Any reference I have made toward Pokemon Iconicism would be, in fact, toward the Pokemon themselves.
Though, Id argue, Pokemon Trainer is most iconic as season 1 Ash, who is technically a different character.
Calm yourself, you shouldn't be one instigating.
You can disagree with my thoughts all you want, but your response is quite literally slander.

And yes- I would argue that both Zelda and Link have more specified elements than Snake, who is a person in real life garb.
This is part of why contemporary playstation and sony have a difficult time with 'iconic' nature, and why games like PSASBR had a small pool of what is actually 'iconic,' by definition.
Not many characters in more modern gaming are actually iconic- at least not visually.

EDIT: It is very curious to me that this is the post that received a warning, based on the dictate of the rules on page one.

 

[Deleted member]

Snake: Kept you waiting huh?

 

[MagnesD3]

Snake is Iconic just not as Iconic as Mario or Sonic /arguement

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say he is but that's just me.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Would I want it? Yes. But I don't think that's anywhere close to realistic.

People are taking this a wee bit too far I think. Since Cloud got revealed, everything is just...weird. Cloud looks like an anime guy, so Goku must be more likely. The next broadcast is the last one, so we're getting a ton of characters, etc...

There's no reason to think we're getting 6 characters. Sure, you might want that to be the case. But the worst thing anyone can do right now is convince themselves and others that we're getting that much.

It's better to have lower (but realistic) expectations, and allowing yourself to be surprised. At least in my opinion.

To me...the proof is in the data. They only added one slot to the data. Yes, they can add more. But there's literally no reason to think they're going to add that many now when they haven't even added that many in the entirety of the DLC we've gotten since Mewtwo.

I don't see this being any bigger than the E3 presentation with characters. We'll get info on Cloud, two other reveals and, imo, an announcement of the ballot winner who is in progress and will be released in 2016. Snake gets revealed with a stage (only characters to get a stage as DLC are both 3rd parties, and there's one more stage in the data).

Those are my thoughts. I just recommend not getting your hopes up no matter how much you want it to be true.

We have facts regarding development, and personal psychology.
It's been 14 months that Sakurai has been working on additional content.
We are clearly getting at least 2 more characters.
The data, which is not just hardware data but includes information of past trends, includes asking questions like "Why would they work an extra year for 7 characters?"

It's not a matter of expectations to ask people to look small... but assuming it cannot be a big direct is not only baseless, it ignores the basic premise of that for which we have waited a year.

 

[SwordOfSeals]

Oh absolutely. I'm not saying he's like Mario levels of famous. But he's easily on par with Ryu and Cloud.

All the more reason I see him getting revealed next month. With Shadow Moses Island. I'm predicting that, because based on the data since it was last mined we should expect at least 2 characters and 1 stage.

Of course, again, I expect 3 characters. 2 to be revealed and released with Cloud (along with two stages) and then, "HEY BALLOT WINNER TO MAKE IT 8 CHARACTERS EVEN". BOOM, K.ROOL.

Actually the data has 2 characters and 2 stages, the data miner was unsure about a extra data slot that also appeared but came to be another DLC stage

 

[Kurri ★]

Isn't Snake's box iconic? I don't play MGS, but I know if I see someone sneaking around in a box, I'm thinking Snake.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Isn't Snake's box iconic? I don't play MGS, but I know if I see someone sneaking around in a box, I'm thinking Snake.

I would agree. It is one of the many iconic things about the series. I would not relegate that to a character- unless you think Snake is a box. Perhaps I'm arguing semantics, but that to me would be like saying the Pokeball makes the Trainer iconic.

*AEM- yeah, this time, I did mention the trainer.

 

[Kurri ★]

I would agree. It is one of the many iconic things about the series. I would not relegate that to a character- unless you think Snake is a box. Perhaps I'm arguing semantics, but that to me would be like saying the Pokeball makes the Trainer iconic.

*AEM- yeah, this time, I did mention the trainer.

Thing is, what other character actually hides in a box to sneak around enemies?

Multiple characters use a Pokeball in Pokemon, but, at least as far as I know, only Snake uses a box in MGS.

 

[Bluekirby2]

I really just want Snake and Wolf.

I guess K. Rool and Shovel Knight, but not as much.

 

[SwordOfSeals]

Isn't Snake's box iconic? I don't play MGS, but I know if I see someone sneaking around in a box, I'm thinking Snake.

That reminds me, if Snake does come back I hope they make 3 different taunts (one being the box off course). But the box being Snakes all three taunts back it Brawl was just plain uncreative tbh.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Thing is, what other character actually hides in a box to sneak around enemies?

Multiple characters use a Pokeball in Pokemon, but, at least as far as I know, only Snake uses a box in MGS.

Touche.
It is definitely the biggest aspect of the character.
It certainly represents him.
I guess does it go in reverse- when you think Snake, do you think 'box?'

That kind of makes me upset with his Smash incarnation, which definitely may be stealth in regard to bombs, but is not a revelation of the essence of Snake.

 

[Kurri ★]

Touche.
It is definitely the biggest aspect of the character.
It certainly represents him.
I guess does it go in reverse- when you think Snake, do you think 'box?'

That kind of makes me upset with his Smash incarnation, which definitely may be stealth in regard to bombs, but is not a revelation of the essence of Snake.

I don't see much of a problem with how he was represented. He had a lot of "stealthy" weapons and the box as a taunt which I feel represented him well enough. Although, again I haven't played a MGS yet, so what do I know.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

I'd like to see Boss Battle Mode from Brawl return but with new bosses from Nintendo and third party series (Dry Bowser, Hoopa-Unbound, Twinrova, Dr. Eggman, Dr. Wily, etc).

 

[Burruni]

You wanna know an unsung icon for gaming that's had enough little appearances on Nintendo?

And a wide enough arsenal to really make a moveset, but one still cartoony enough to not be a risk for the ESRB?

 

[Kurri ★]

I'd like to see Boss Battle Mode from Brawl return but with new bosses from Nintendo and third party series (Dry Bowser, Hoopa-Unbound, Twinrova, Dr. Eggman, Dr. Wily, etc).

A boss mode would be cool, but it'd also be a lot of work that I doubt Sakurai is willing to do

 

[IndigoSSB]

You wanna know an unsung icon for gaming that's had enough little appearances on Nintendo?

And a wide enough arsenal to really make a moveset, but one still cartoony enough to not be a risk for the ESRB?

Is that Worms from team 17's game? Have they ever had anything to do with Nintendo? I'm going to be honest, I almost forgot their game existed. I could see how they could make it work though, with all of the weapons he gets in the game.

 

[Burruni]

Is that Worms from team 17's game? Have they ever had anything to do with Nintendo? I'm going to be honest, I almost forgot their game existed. I could see how they could make it work though, with all of the weapons he gets in the game.

I know at least 2 games were on the DS.
But I just posted up a friggin image of a Worm and you recognized the series and the maker.
POINT. MADE.

Edit: 1 game on the gamecube, 2 on the DS, 2 on the Wii. Same amount of appearances as IF you count the upcoming Final Fantasy Explorers.

 

[Kurri ★]

Gonna be honest, Worms is up there with Freddy Fazbear as top characters I don't want in Smash

 

[Burruni]

Gonna be honest, Worms is up there with Freddy Fazbear as top characters I don't want in Smash

Don't get me wrong.
I dun want 'em in either.
But they /are/ an iconic 3rd Party series with some level of a previous Nintendo relationship.
That was my entire point.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

A boss mode would be cool, but it'd also be a lot of work that I doubt Sakurai is willing to do

Maybe he could do something easier but still fun. Sakurai could put in a Race to the Finish Mode that's a throwback to Melee's and include that as a bonus mode.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Worms is a cool character to theorize even if you know there's no chance of them getting in. Heck, I do that with like every FE character that I want in the game (which is quite a list)

Don't get me wrong.
I dun want 'em in either.
But they /are/ an iconic 3rd Party series with some level of a previous Nintendo relationship.
That was my entire point.

I don't know if I would consider them iconic, even if it kind of fits with the literal definition. Honestly the fact that I could name their creators was a coincidence, I'm sure 8 or 9 out of ten people you ask wouldn't be able to name the developers of Worms.

 

[Kurri ★]

Maybe he could do something easier but still fun. Sakurai could put in a Race to the Finish Mode that's a throwback to Melee's and include that as a bonus mode.

If it's too small no one will really want it, if it's too big, it'll be too much effort for DLC, at least for a game like Smash. Honestly, if the game mode wasn't announced by now, I doubt it'll be released in the future. Maybe next Smash.

 

[AEMehr]

I'm actually a fan of Snake. No need for a moderator to get irrational, isn't that your duty?

I'm unsure as to how my job is to "not be irrational"? Are you saying my duty as a moderator is to make sense? I don't know what that really insinuates otherwise.

I just question how his fandom making irrational jumps. Such as arguing that he is visually iconic.
You know, stating that he is visually iconic, and then giving no example at all of what makes Snake, Snake.
Unlike being a blue turtle, a red plumber in a letter-cap, or a green elf with an entire emblem to call his own.
Hell... even Cloud's specific sword, and Lara Croft's boobs in a T, are iconic.
What exactly does Snake have? The franchise seems to be aware of this, and thusly added the eye patch to try to alleviate the clear issue at hand.

The Bandana, the Sneaking Suit, the Box, the Cigarette, the Personality?
The Eyepatch was literally added to make Solid Snake and Naked Snake appear different. They're different characters. If you see nothing iconic about him, have you bothered playing Metal Gear? The game is known for it's gameplay and humor, Snake's iconicness comes from his personality and quirkiness. Without experiencing any yourself, of course you'll think he's got no redeeming qualities.

I also never mentioned Pokemon Trainer once in my response, this seems to be your own personal bias against me showing, so thanks for making more than evident to anyone reading the conversation.
Any reference I have made toward Pokemon Iconicism would be, in fact, toward the Pokemon themselves.
Though, Id argue, Pokemon Trainer is most iconic as season 1 Ash, who is technically a different character.
Calm yourself, you shouldn't be one instigating.
You can disagree with my thoughts all you want, but your response is quite literally slander.

It was a comparison to what you find feasible, and it is a huge contradiction to what you are currently arguing about. I do not see why this is me "Slandering" you when it merely me pointing out a huge contradiction in your argument. Where one character is seen as iconic when another isn't for lacking aesthetics you believe exist when your preferred choice lacks it even more.

And yes- I would argue that both Zelda and Link have more specified elements than Snake, who is a person in real life garb.

Do Tunics and Dresses not exist in real life? These really come off as straw-manny. Link always has the Green tunic, sure. Zelda is usually garbed in something pink-like with white mixed in, that's pretty much it for her. Snake always looks the same. The only visual changes are clothing and age, meanwhile Link and Zelda can go through pretty major changes in each coming game in appearance.

This is part of why contemporary playstation and sony have a difficult time with 'iconic' nature, and why games like PSASBR had a small pool of what is actually 'iconic,' by definition.
Not many characters in more modern gaming are actually iconic- at least not visually.

This comes off as a pointless addition. Snake has been a part of gaming since 1987, you must know that right? Or are you purely judging the character for his PS appearance and onward? That's not how Sakurai's team designs characters. They take a look at pretty much everything that character comes from, surely there is a base for design. But in All-Star Mode, Snake would appear amongst the other characters that came to be in 1987, not in 1998. His (Solid) design has remained pretty consistent since then. The only major change being 4's Old Snake. So, I don't understand why this is relevant at all. Are you trying to make yourself sound credible by bringing up unrelated issues about how lame character design is these days? And that's not me trying to agitate you, that is a legitimate question.

 

[Banjodorf]

So, probably a dumb question but...

What properly separates, say, Xenoblade to Yokai Watch in terms of being 1st or 3rd Party?

Because I don't properly understand the line when both are exclusive games for a Nintendo console made by a company outside of Nintendo.

Is it due to Nintendo purchasing Monolith or because they only published Yo-Kai Watch, not develop it?

That's one of the things I haven't quite understood.

I understand, however, that Layton is certainly held as 3rd Party due to the fact that it was released for iOS for some titles.

It's because Monolith is 100% a first party company for Nintendo. They own them.

Whereas Level 5 just happens to make games on their platforms. Nintendo doesn't own them or, I believe, any of their properties wholly.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

If it's too small no one will really want it, if it's too big, it'll be too much effort for DLC, at least for a game like Smash. Honestly, if the game mode wasn't announced by now, I doubt it'll be released in the future. Maybe next Smash.

It's too bad, because the roster in this Smash installment is the best we've ever had, but the Single Player content is really lacking.

 

[FalKoopa]

Im talking about alot of villains actually, and there are alot of villains that do have merit they will never see the the light of day though. Also when did having merit matter in smash 4 we have all kinds of characters that dont belong now, anybody can get in as long as they are a video game character as far as smash 4 is concerned.

Any character, huh? How easy is it to ignore that they all have perfectly valid reasons for being included?

Isn't Snake's box iconic? I don't play MGS, but I know if I see someone sneaking around in a box, I'm thinking Snake.

Snake's box and ! are pretty iconic.

 

[Kurri ★]

Any character, huh? How easy is it to ignore that they all have perfectly valid reasons for being included?

"If it's a character I don't like, then no one likes em, and they don't deserve to be in!"

Snake's box and ! are pretty iconic.

This is very true.

 

[AEMehr]

Meh, I don't understand why people try to slander Snake as a gaming icon when he's been in Brawl and would have been in Melee had they had enough development time to make him. At this point the only thing stopping him from getting in if Sakurai wanted him is Konami, nothing else.

It's done to death and there is no reason to discuss it aside from beating a dead horse.

 

[Burruni]

Meh, I don't understand why people try to slander Snake as a gaming icon when he's been in Brawl and would have been in Melee had they had enough development time to make him. At this point the only thing stopping him from getting in if Sakurai wanted him is Konami, nothing else.

It's done to death and there is no reason to discuss it aside from beating a dead horse.

Umbrella's better than Annie.

I don't think Snake's likely.
But trying to discredit a veteran 3rd party character on iconicism is hilarious.
He's iconic to the Smash demographic by being in a Smash game.

GG no re.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Is that Earthworm Jim, the worm above? It seems not...
and then I get back to Earthworm Jim hype and how he is a plausible option.

Meh, I don't understand why people try to slander Snake as a gaming icon when he's been in Brawl and would have been in Melee had they had enough development time to make him. At this point the only thing stopping him from getting in if Sakurai wanted him is Konami, nothing else.

It's done to death and there is no reason to discuss it aside from beating a dead horse.

I dont think getting in Smash Bros is a valid reason to consider someone iconic.
I don't consider Roy and Lucas iconic, and I'm not sure about a lot of the current cast. Id remove Jigglypuff if given the option.

Spoiler: didactic

I may have a much more strict idea of what be an 'icon, or in general quite different views than most in this forum, but is the point of a forum to have everyone congratulate each other on having the same opinion (which is evidently quite different from Sakurai's, and rarely amounts to actual correct speculation within the overall consensus)?

Neigh, I'd say the point of a forum is discussion to garnish a better aspect of what are other views. The difficulty is that when an unpopular opinion comes, particularly in this room, it seems to stir up a commotion, and the one with the different view is often incited as one attempting to devalue another character or another idea... which is, literally, the reverse.

 

[FalKoopa]

Is that Earthworm Jim, the worm above? It seems not...
and then I get back to Earthworm Jim hype and how he is a plausible option.


I dont think getting in Smash Bros is a valid reason to consider someone iconic.
I don't consider Roy and Lucas iconic, and I'm not sure about a lot of the current cast. Id remove Jigglypuff if given the option.

Spoiler: didactic

I may have a much more strict idea of what be an 'icon, or in general quite different views than most in this forum, but is the point of a forum to have everyone congratulate each other on having the same opinion (which is evidently quite different from Sakurai's, and rarely amounts to actual correct speculation within the overall consensus)?

Neigh, I'd say the point of a forum is discussion to garnish a better aspect of what are other views. The difficulty is that when an unpopular opinion comes, particularly in this room, it seems to stir up a commotion, and the one with the different view is often incited as one attempting to devalue another character or another idea... which is, literally, the reverse.

Why do you suppose it's called an 'unpopular' opinion?

Pretty sure Lucas and Roy are iconic to Nintendo fans, yeah? Smash is still a Nintendo game at heart.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Why do you suppose it's called an 'unpopular' opinion?

Pretty sure Lucas and Roy are iconic to Nintendo fans, yeah? Smash is still a Nintendo game at heart.

Unpopular opinions being bashed... acceptable behavior.
Assumption it is a wrong opinion? Just a pretty ignorant move.
The opinion that is incited as causing difficulty in a forum? Not what the rules describe, at all.

I more than expect a backlash to many of my opinions. I don't appreciate, personally nor when I see in others, that this is taken as a sign as a user doing anything against forums rules, and somehow trying to utilize the content therein as an excuse for doing something incorrectly, when it is not.

Standing up against popular opinion has historically been the only cause of change. While it may not be ideal to always do, there is certainly a necessity for taking time away from the thought of the majority, and reassessing an opinion.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Snake's impact on his genre is as important as, say, Ryu's impact on his genre. He gave a face to an entire genre of game. Snake might not be as well known as most characters, but his impact is as important from a certain industry standpoint.

 

[Kenith]

Just in case nobody saw it the first time:

This game involves genocide and shooting and exploding human beings with real guns with no levity whatsoever.
E10+.

Snake would not influence the rating.

This.
Shadow the Hedgehog is much more violent than Smash Bros but has the same rating.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Shadow the Hedgehog is also a terrible game that shouldn't exist.

Yeah it should've been T rated and it's bullcrap it got off with an E10+ but the bigger issues is, it simply exists.

 

[FalKoopa]

Unpopular opinions being bashed... acceptable behavior.
Assumption it is a wrong opinion? Just a pretty ignorant move.
The opinion that is incited as causing difficulty in a forum? Not what the rules describe, at all.

I more than expect a backlash to many of my opinions. I don't appreciate, personally nor when I see in others, that this is taken as a sign as a user doing anything against forums rules, and somehow trying to utilize the content therein as an excuse for doing something incorrectly, when it is not.

An unpopular opinion is going to be met with opposition, that's what makes it unpopular in the first place. Being unpopular doesn't make it right or wrong, though.

Unpopular opinions aren't against the forum rules, but getting into a fight is - no matter what the reason.

Standing up against popular opinion has historically been the only cause of change. While it may not be ideal to always do, there is certainly a necessity for taking time away from the thought of the majority, and reassessing an opinion

That maybe so, but that doesn't necessarily make them right, you know. Change can be good or bad, depending on your point of view.