Official General Post-DLC Discussion [Closed]

[pupNapoleon]

An unpopular opinion is going to be met with opposition, that's what makes it unpopular in the first place. Being unpopular doesn't make it right or wrong, though.

Unpopular opinions aren't against the forum rules, but getting into a fight is - no matter what the reason.


That maybe so, but that doesn't necessarily make them right, you know. Change can be good or bad, depending on your point of view.

My only point was that the one voicing the different opinion, and not just with myself, is the one in this thread alone seen as the one starting the fight, when in reality, it is just offering a vastly different conversation. I have seen this with other users. But Id be happy to take this conversation to PM, FalKoopa. I am speaking to AEM there as well.

 

[MagnesD3]

Any character, huh? How easy is it to ignore that they all have perfectly valid reasons for being included?

Snake's box and ! are pretty iconic.

The bar has been significantly lowered but to be honest it was probably just that low in sakurai's mind since the beginning I mean pichu was a character in melee. Anyways most nintendo characters have the potential to get into smash now, characters dont have to be special anymore.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Snake's impact on his genre is as important as, say, Ryu's impact on his genre. He gave a face to an entire genre of game. Snake might not be as well known as most characters, but his impact is as important from a certain industry standpoint.

To play again the 'voice against Snake,' apparently,
what makes 'stealth' a genre? It seems more like a subgenre that has more or less emerged in the form of other genres but not standing as much of its own without getting extremely specific.

Metal Gear influenced many games, but what exactly qualifies 'stealth genre?' Other than Metal Gear, I can think of plenty of story based games that may, such as The Last of Us. Is it the antithesis of a first person shooter?

 

[FalKoopa]

The bar has been significantly lowered but to be honest it was probably just that low in sakurai's mind since the beginning I mean pichu was a character in melee. Anyways most nintendo characters have the potential to get into smash now, characters dont have to be special anymore.

Pichu was an afterthought though.

To play again the 'voice against Snake,' apparently,
what makes 'stealth' a genre? It seems more like a subgenre that has more or less emerged in the form of other genres but not standing as much of its own without getting extremely specific.

Metal Gear influenced many games, but what exactly qualifies 'stealth genre?' Other than Metal Gear, I can think of plenty of story based games that may, such as The Last of Us. Is it the antithesis of a first person shooter?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_game

It's certainly a recognised genre.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

I want Shadow to be playable next time

 

[pupNapoleon]

Pichu was an afterthought though.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_game

It's certainly a recognised genre.

More recognizable for expanding story and environment, than the genre is itself.

Video game genres

• List

Action

• Beat 'em up
  • Hack and slash
• Fighting
• Maze
  • Pac-Man clone
• Platform
• Shooter
  • First-person
  • Third-person
  • Light gun
  • Shoot 'em up
  • Tactical
• Survival

Action-adventure

• Grand Theft Auto clone
• Metroidvania
• Stealth
• Survival horror

Adventure

• Dating sim
  • Bishōjo
  • Eroge
  • Otome
• Graphic adventure
  • Escape the room
• Interactive fiction
• Interactive movie
• Visual novel

MMOs

• MMOFPS
• MMORPG
• MMORTS

Role-playing game

• Action role-playing
• Dungeon crawl
• MUD
• Roguelike
• Tactical role-playing

Simulation

• Construction and management
  • Business
  • City
  • Government
• Life simulation
  • Dating sim
  • Digital pet
  • God
  • Social simulation
• Sports

Strategy

• 4X
• Real-time strategy
  • MOBA
  • Tower defense
  • Time management
• Real-time tactics
• Turn-based strategy
• Turn-based tactics
  • Artillery
• Wargame

Vehicle simulation

• Flight simulator
  • Amateur
  • Combat
  • Space
• Racing
  • Kart racing
  • Sim racing
• Submarine simulator
• Train simulator

Other genres

• Breakout clone
• Exergame
• Music
  • Rhythm
• Non-game
• Party
• Programming
• Puzzle
  • Sokoban
  • Tile-matching

Related concepts

• Arcade game
• Art game
• Audio game
• Casual game
• Christian game
• Clone game
• Crossover game
• Cult game
• FMV
• Indie game
• Nonlinear gameplay
  • Open world
• Online game
  • Browser game
  • MMOG
  • Social network game
• Serious game
  • Advergame
  • Edugame
• Toys-to-life
• Traditional game

That copied poorly, but. i think Wikipedia has the right thing going on with genres. Stealth is a subgenre, often combining with platformers or other types of genres. The 'main' genres are the ones bolded in blue. Very organized list, and I do enjoy organized.

 

[AEMehr]

I dont think getting in Smash Bros is a valid reason to consider someone iconic.
I don't consider Roy and Lucas iconic, and I'm not sure about a lot of the current cast. Id remove Jigglypuff if given the option.

Though we're talking about a Third-Party character here, which probably takes like 10 times the amount of effort to obtain the rights of and to be represented suitably to both Sakurai and their respective Company's desires. If the character isn't enough to get people excited or turn heads, why bother? Whether you may believe that Snake is an iconic character in gaming or not, Sakurai seems to believe so based on previous actions. And I heavily doubt his mindset would change on that, especially with the addition of Cloud Strife.

I want Shadow to be playable next time

He would be cool but probably a Sonic semi-clone and that would be laaaaaaaaaame.

 

[FalKoopa]

More recognizable for expanding story and environment, than the genre is itself.

We've gone quite off-track. Why does this disqualify him from being in Smash again?

 

[pupNapoleon]

Though we're talking about a Third-Party character here, which probably takes like 10 times the amount of effort to obtain the rights of and to be represented suitably to both Sakurai and their respective Company's desires. If the character isn't enough to get people excited or turn heads, why bother? Whether you may believe that Snake is an iconic character in gaming or not, Sakurai seems to believe so based on previous actions. And I heavily doubt his mindset would change on that, especially with the addition of Cloud Strife.
He would be cool but probably a Sonic semi-clone and that would be laaaaaaaaaame.

I think Snake is an iconic character *IN GAMING* without question. That is a necessary, but previously unstated, context. Twas not in my initial post, long ago, in this conversation.

We've gone quite off-track. Why does this disqualify him from being in Smash again?

I've never said Snake doesnt deserve to be in the current roster of Smash...I said he isn't iconic by one definition, and was in fact iconic by another definition.

 

[FalKoopa]

I've never said Snake doesnt deserve to be in the current roster of Smash...I said he isn't iconic by one definition, and was in fact iconic by another definition.

...
Okay...
... I think we're done for today.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Let's talk Robots.
Everyone likes robots.

Who are some big Robots in gaming?

 

[AEMehr]

Let's talk Robots.
Everyone likes robots.

Who are some big Robots in gaming?

Big robots? Chibi-Robo and Ray obviously.

Bomberman comes to mind.

 

[FalKoopa]

Let's talk Robots.
Everyone likes robots.

Who are some big Robots in gaming?

 

[pupNapoleon]

I feel like there would be more prominent robots in gaming.

is not one.
But who would be?

I guess mecha suits fall into this.

 

[AEMehr]

Nothing beats Eggman then IMO.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Porky...eh...
Dr Willey who builds robots?

Tails in mech would make me sad.

 

[FalKoopa]

Well, we have this mech fighter.

 

[pupNapoleon]

And this Not a robot.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Eggman in his eggmobile would be awesome. He could play very much like JR

 

[pupNapoleon]

I GUESS ROBOTS are more anime Mech Armor especially.

Though may count.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

And this Not a robot.

what is that from?

 

[MagnesD3]

Pichu was an afterthought though.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_game

It's certainly a recognised genre.

I think there are alot of "afterthoughts" in this game but its whatever, its clearly my mistake for expecting something more from a series that never was what I thought it was.

 

[FalKoopa]

what is that from?

Street Fighter X Tekken

 

[ZeroInfinity]

Let's talk Robots.
Everyone likes robots.

Who are some big Robots in gaming?

Robots, you say?

... I'll just leave...

 

[JaidynReiman]

Though we're talking about a Third-Party character here, which probably takes like 10 times the amount of effort to obtain the rights of and to be represented suitably to both Sakurai and their respective Company's desires. If the character isn't enough to get people excited or turn heads, why bother? Whether you may believe that Snake is an iconic character in gaming or not, Sakurai seems to believe so based on previous actions. And I heavily doubt his mindset would change on that, especially with the addition of Cloud Strife.
He would be cool but probably a Sonic semi-clone and that would be laaaaaaaaaame.

Sonic Battle would like a word with you. Shadow has tons of potential on his own merits just with his powers alone. I'd love to see a Smash moveset for him just to prove the pleasure who claim he'd be a semi clone wrong. And no he doesn't need guns either. I mean, he only used them once anyway and Sonic Battle was before Shadow the Hedgehog the game.

Oh and in Sonic Battle? Shadow isn't just asnnnd "little" different than Sonic... he's COMPLETELY different.

Not that I think Shadow should be in Smash. I just hate uninformed people immediately claiming he'd be a semi clone

 

[ErenJager]

Sonic Battle would like a word with you. Shadow has tons of potential on his own merits just with his powers alone. I'd love to see a Smash moveset for him just to prove the pleasure who claim he'd be a semi clone wrong. And no he doesn't need guns either. I mean, he only used them once anyway and Sonic Battle was before Shadow the Hedgehog the game.

Oh and in Sonic Battle? Shadow isn't just asnnnd "little" different than Sonic... he's COMPLETELY different.

Not that I think Shadow should be in Smash. I just hate uninformed people immediately claiming he'd be a semi clone

Isn't he literally cloned from sonics dna?

 

[Banjodorf]

To play again the 'voice against Snake,' apparently,
what makes 'stealth' a genre? It seems more like a subgenre that has more or less emerged in the form of other genres but not standing as much of its own without getting extremely specific.

Metal Gear influenced many games, but what exactly qualifies 'stealth genre?' Other than Metal Gear, I can think of plenty of story based games that may, such as The Last of Us. Is it the antithesis of a first person shooter?

Are you serious? We only have series like Splinter Cell, Deus Ex, and others BECAUSE of Metal Gear. It's a series that revolutionized stealth and cinematic gameplay both.

I understand not *liking* Snake, but even my friend who hates third parties thinks Snake (and Mega Man, Ryu) are acceptable choices because of their iconic status and history with Nintendo.

Snake is objectively an icon of gaming, and is much more recognizable than you seem to think. Cmon now.

 

[Megadoomer]

Isn't he literally cloned from sonics dna?

Nope. He was created about 34 years before Sonic was born.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

ROBOTS?!? Chibi Robo and Ray are probably the best 1st party options. While us Westerners aren't super informed on the Custom Robo series, the series has been very popular in Japan since N64 til they stopped production with the most recent iteration being placed on the Nintendo DS. But for those of you who haven't played a Custom Robo, you're certainly missing out. It was a hidden gem of the GameCube era, and the DS one is great as well. And then we all know about Chibi, have a great game on the GameCube and still exists to this day. His only real problem is the quality drop his games have seen since the first one.

 

[Banjodorf]

I think there are alot of "afterthoughts" in this game but its whatever, its clearly my mistake for expecting something more from a series that never was what I thought it was.

Clones are the only ever "afterthoughts" because of the difference in workload. It seems silly to think a game like this needs to only cater to the tastes of older Nintendo fans, but that's none of my business.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Clones are the only ever "afterthoughts" because of the difference in workload. It seems silly to think a game like this needs to only cater to the tastes of older Nintendo fans, but that's none of my business.

To be fair, the Wii U roster largely caters to a younger audience. The amount of characters from GameCube era onward is a very large percentage of the roster.

 

[Banjodorf]

To be fair, the Wii U roster largely caters to a younger audience. The amount of characters from GameCube era onward is a very large percentage of the roster.

Oh, I certainly agree. Honestly this can only be good, because a common criticism of future iterations, if you limit yourself to " Nintendo All-Stars", is where do we go from here?

Clearly Sakurai has two answers to that question:

1. Look at bringing in characters younger fans will be familiar with, that are more recent, but still have a degree of impact. There's a lot of new blood that debuted after Brawl here that's worth using. ( ) and some that's gotten a new spotlight but is technically a pre-Brawl or even classic character ( )

2. The gaming community is huge, and there's a lot of characters with tremendous industry impact I could try to include that would both draw in more fans and excite/surprise existing ones. ( )

You guys know all this already, this is just another attempt of mine to explain Sakurai's rationales, not that anyone but he can really know.

Eventually you run out of All-Stars, and sometimes the new blood feels like a more fresh idea that some All-Stars; I'm sure it doesn't mean they won't be added, it just means they were a less appealing choice at face value to the developers than some fresh faces.

 

[Burruni]

Isn't he literally cloned from sonics dna?

No.

Shadow was an artificial life form made and raised by the grandfather Dr. Ivo Robotnik (Eggman), Dr. Gerald Robotnik about 50 years prior to Sonic Adventure 2. He based the design of Shadow on ancient murals he found in his travels, presumably similar to those in Angel Island as part of Sonic 3 & Knuckles depicting Super Sonic, and thus why Shadow's quills are up-turned. The plot convenience of Shadow looking so similar to Sonic is as shoe-horned as the mural in S3&K

Edit: The Mural itself. Assume this was, y'know, in something greater than 32 bit it's kinda conceivable for this excuse.

In the games past Sonic Heroes, the games tried to make Shadow a lot less similar to Sonic. Less focus on raw speed and more on his natural prowess of Chaos Control, namely in creating spears of pure energy, remote energy blasts, "teleporting" with raw speed, and even more or less going Kaioken. "Chaos-ken" if you will.

It isn't a - scenario.

Double Edit: THIS NEEDS TO BE SHARED.

 

[ErenJager]

eggman's stache destroys marios.

 

[Deleted member]

Mario's got a manly stache of awesomeness Eggman's is good. But Mario wins!

 

[IndigoSSB]

Mario's mustache for DLC confirmed.

 

[MagnesD3]

Clones are the only ever "afterthoughts" because of the difference in workload. It seems silly to think a game like this needs to only cater to the tastes of older Nintendo fans, but that's none of my business.

Thats very debatable, also I never said I had a problem with 3rd parties (as long as they arent random garbage like shovel knight/shante but lets be honest characters like these are definitely possible at getting in Smash).

 

[NintenZ]

So after looking at my list that I made yesterday, I found out some observations that may be interesting, here's what I found.

Shantae is particularly popular over here in the West, many fan polls have shown that her popularity unmistakably resides here, and what separates her from other characters are her various animal transformations, which would be a first for the Smash Bros series. She also now has a publisher in Japan, meaning her licence would be easier to acquire.

K. Rool is popular all over the world, however his popularity usually resides in Europe, the country he was created in. He usually destroys fan polls over there, and what separates him from other characters is his multiple personas, so it's like playing four characters in one, which would be a first for the Smash Bros series.

(Bandana) Waddle Dee is particularly popular in Japan, usually ranking very high in fan polls over there, and what separates him from other characters is his use of his spear, which would be a first for the Smash Bros series.

Cloud is a very strange one, as his situation is quite different from the others. From what I could tell he was popular internationally, but thing was that literally almost no one expected him and considered him a pipe dream. So he must've been the "Surprise" character, in other words, the one everyone (exaggeration) wanted, but no one (exaggeration) expected. The thing that separates him from other characters is the Limit Break mechanic, which boosts his abilities, which is technically a first for the Smash Bros series since Shulk's Arts boost him in one area while Cloud's Limit Breaker boosts him all-around (at least from what I've examined)

All four of these characters are popular around the world, in fact Shantae is the most popular indie character in Japan and Europe according to fan polls, not to mention all have something that no other Smash character has, so their popularity and abilities would most likely be taken into account. Because of this, I think that they were decided because of these factors...

1) Popularity
2) Uniqueness
3) Accessibility

And those are my thoughts. We'll see what'll happen soon in a month.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

We have facts regarding development, and personal psychology.
It's been 14 months that Sakurai has been working on additional content.
We are clearly getting at least 2 more characters.
The data, which is not just hardware data but includes information of past trends, includes asking questions like "Why would they work an extra year for 7 characters?"

It's not a matter of expectations to ask people to look small... but assuming it cannot be a big direct is not only baseless, it ignores the basic premise of that for which we have waited a year.

I understand what you're saying. However, I think the "waiting a year" thing is easily explained.

Since DLC started, we've gotten Mewtwo, Roy, Lucas, Ryu and Cloud. As you said, we're getting at least two more. In the time span of a year (or less) we've gotten:

5 characters
7, soon to be 8 or 9 stages
5 costume packs
Tournament mode
Balance patches

All of these for both versions, no less. Then you add in the fact that the development team is smaller, and the back and forth negotiations/approval that the team needs to finish said characters, etc... All of that takes a decent amount of time to accomplish.

I don't know all the ins and outs about game development, but as far as I know the work that they've accomplished so far is pretty amazing for the group they have.

That's mainly why I'm hoping that people don't get TOO hung up on the idea of more than 2-3 characters.

Even if we would like to think the ballot would provide more than one character, there's been nothing (aside from fan speculation) that has suggested there would be more than one character.

While I am going to stick by my current "theory", I do think that they COULD add more content. I just don't think they WILL. I think that next month will be the end of Smash info.

 

[Wolfie557]

I'm keeping with my prediction of 8 DLC's total, but obviously I would prefer 10. (6 more including Cloud).

If it is less than 8 for whatever reason tho, I will be sad.