General Ness discussion

[Sinji]

I see docs upb oos under platforms a lot with shrommed.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Anybody have really sore fingers after playing Ness for a while? I've only heard about this kind of stuff from other people about Fox.

 

[Sinji]

I get sore fingers after using ness. I had a match last week vs falcon and it took like 5 min. to finish the match. ( it was like a brawl match LOL).

 

[thesage]

Me too. I'm trying to play Ness less technically and more intelligently. I think he has more options that way. That way, when I need to be technical, I'm not exhausted.

 

[Jono]

Anybody have really sore fingers after playing Ness for a while? I've only heard about this kind of stuff from other people about Fox.

Yep, my fingers feel even worse than when I play spacies.

 

[Deleted member]

Me too. I'm trying to play Ness less technically and more intelligently. I think he has more options that way. That way, when I need to be technical, I'm not exhausted.

for higher tiers, i agree with you, but for a low tier like ness i think he should just be as fast and tight as possible. ness doesn't really gain any utility out of being slower (read: in the air more than not at all) because it just makes him set-up fodder vs the better characters. ness should generally stick to DD/WD/WDOOS and dash attack/JCgrab/DJC bair or fair for approaches and work with what you get from there. you can deviate sometimes but i don't think it's the way to go.

hope your opponents don't know how to CC gay your dash attack =/

since ness is fairly linear under this style of play, even if you play hardcore techy it doesn't really wear you out over a few hours.

 

[ChivalRuse]

DJC fair -> d-tilt push is semi effective for keeping people from CCing all day. If you make the startup for your DJC fair approach resemble the startup for dash attack, it will be harder for them to read you.

 

[thesage]

They've been cc'ing my dash attack the last couple of years Mow. I don't really use that move much anymore unless I can see an opening for the third hit. That's a bit safer.

The problem with d-tilt anything that if they react to it fast enough, you're ****ed. Anybody with experience and playing a good character has an easy way to counter it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You just need to use the d-tilts to negate their CC. Once you push them out of grab range, you can just shield.

 

[Deleted member]

ness has very poor range all around and is horrible shieldgrab bait. i would probably state now that most of actually playing ness is overcoming the opponents initial defenses moreso than it is follow-ups with combos, avoiding edge guards, etc.

that said, you should NEVER DJC fair into a grounded, ready opponent. dtilt or no you're asking to get grabbed.

m2k's awesome sheik showed me how easy it is to crouchgrab ness's dash attack 3rd hit to the point where i usually just try to catch landing opponents with it. it works surprisingly well even though it's awkward as hell overall. for grounded approaches i generally stick to grab or the odd side B.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

You can't CC out of a tech roll can you?

 

[standardtoaster]

You can dj into the ground faster than djc dair ac. Just try it guys...

Frame perfect DJC nair. As soon as I entered aerial state from JumpStart, I double jumped. Then one frame after Double Jumping, I did nair.


I'll be posting a ness hitbox and frame data thread relatively soon. I have to say, quite a few of his moves are very pitiful. You guys really put in a lot of effort to win matches. I appreciate that. :o

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

I'll be posting a ness hitbox and frame data thread relatively soon. I have to say, quite a few of his moves are very pitiful. You guys really put in a lot of effort to win matches. I appreciate that. :o

Thanks man, bad moves are what make low tiers special, and there are a lot of things special about Ness XD

Isn't DJC nair just as fast as DJC dair only with landing lag?

 

[thesage]

Did you try out just dj'ing into the ground?

 

[Deleted member]

I'll be posting a ness hitbox and frame data thread relatively soon. I have to say, quite a few of his moves are very pitiful. You guys really put in a lot of effort to win matches. I appreciate that. :o

Not really. Ness is surprisingly better off than many of the other low tiers just because he has nice combos and decent edge guarding. It's not really a big deal to do well as ness until you hit the bigger char gaps vs top tiers like sheik or fox.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think bat is rather underused - not as a KO move, but as a standard punish for bad approaches that just leads to some damage and better positioning ...

Or maybe I'm just dumb and haven't been using one of Ness' great tools for the longest time ...

Yeah, probably the latter.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Did you try out just dj'ing into the ground?

Eh, I'll try that next the next few days. I've been trying to work those weird FD curves and YYG because I have some friends coming over and I want to show some fancy **** for the scrubs

Not really. Ness is surprisingly better off than many of the other low tiers just because he has nice combos and decent edge guarding. It's not really a big deal to do well as ness until you hit the bigger char gaps vs top tiers like sheik or fox.

You might not realize this but to most people picking up Melee Ness after high tiers or brawl mods is pretty dang hard to do. He's not like Shiek where you can start Fair-ing out of nowhere or Roy who is somewhat like a low-tier fusion between Marth and Falcon. You really need to get a feel of him to use him well, but that being said, he's a lot better than people give him credit for. The main reason why he's so low is because of his recover, which while is very bad, has slightly more flexibility than people think.

 

[indie_dave]

Frame perfect DJC nair.
* * *
I'll be posting a ness hitbox and frame data thread relatively soon. I have to say, quite a few of his moves are very pitiful. You guys really put in a lot of effort to win matches. I appreciate that. :o

bro you are so boss rite now <3

Did you try out just dj'ing into the ground?

djc wd?

Not really. Ness is surprisingly better off than many of the other low tiers just because he has nice combos and decent edge guarding. It's not really a big deal to do well as ness until you hit the bigger char gaps vs top tiers like sheik or fox.

bat

i underuse it too
consistently, a friend of mine back home HAWAII *over*uses the bat, and wins more than i do with a way slower ness than mine :V

telling Mow that he's wrong

LOL

 

[Deleted member]

for the given comparison's sake, I think ness is easier than roy, but i also think roy is better than ness overall.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

The bat is my favorite move next to PKT and BThrow. You can really surprise people with the range (if you didn't get my post from the other thread), it picks up missed techs pretty well, edgeguards well, makes a cool sound, and the body reflect is funny and useful when you swing the bat away from them. They usually don't know what happened the first time.

 

[standardtoaster]

Did you try out just dj'ing into the ground?

I didn't even know you could at the time, lol. Besides, I autocancelled nair on frame 1. It doesn't make that much of a difference if you do it frame perfect.

 

[Dorsey]

well, isn't the whole "into the ground" thing based off the initial downward flip thing / animation ness does in his 2nd jump? IF that takes more than 1 frame to happen, then yes, it does make a difference if you're doing it frame perfect.... right? I'm at work, but that's what I'm thinking atm...

BUT, I don't think ness can jump "into the ground". I think it just kind of barely looks like it sometimes..

 

[ChivalRuse]

What's the best way to punish a whiffed aerial when I'm dash dancing? Grab is not reliable because of its horrendous range. So ... DJC nair? I really don't know.

 

[Dorsey]

whiffed? unfamiliar with that term.

but, when in doubt.......FAIR

Random about fair: I overuse the fair, as in, I use it on occasion knowingly that there are better options... or at least options that will deliver more %, I mean. I feel like I am in control more when I 'overuse' it, in the long run... As in, hitting this move a lot seems to make people deviate their style more, and more opportunities seem to come up to rack up multiple hits w/ other moves. Some of this is due to my opponent getting irritated by just BARELY getting outspaced by the fair repetitively.........comments?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Whiffed = they throw out an aerial and it barely misses (or generally it misses because you dodged it by dashing out of its range).

Yeah, fair is good.

 

[Deleted member]

What's the best way to punish a whiffed aerial when I'm dash dancing? Grab is not reliable because of its horrendous range. So ... DJC nair? I really don't know.

grab better. grab is still the answer you want.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah. I seem to have a problem with doing things well as Ness.

 

[thesage]

You can dj into the ground. It is entirely possible.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

What's the best way to punish a whiffed aerial when I'm dash dancing? Grab is not reliable because of its horrendous range. So ... DJC nair? I really don't know.

UTilt is really great for aerials because of his stretchy disjointed fingers. You probably want to do DJC UAir combos after that. End with Uair or Bair if it kills or you think you can kill them by edgeguard/gimp, Dair if you want to go for the tech chase.

 

[ChivalRuse]

How do I u-tilt out of a dash dance? Wavedash -> u-tilt?

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

You could SHDairDJCFFAC (Short hop Down Air Double Jump Cancel Fast Fall Auto Cancel). Or you could double jump into the ground.

 

[standardtoaster]

You could SHDairDJCFFAC (Short hop Down Air Double Jump Cancel Fast Fall Auto Cancel). Or you could double jump into the ground.

mad techskill up in here

 

[Deleted member]

or you could just tap down. as soon as down registers you can do any standing action, and you only have to tap it very briefly. you can uptilt/jab/ftilt out of a dash easily with most characters.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Would that actually be superior to wavedash utilt, though, framewise?

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

It's all personal preference. If you can crouch or double jump ten frames faster than you can air dodge into the ground then crouch or double jump. Otherwise WD.

 

[standardtoaster]

I've tried DJing into the ground a few times with AR but I can't seem to do it.

I'll make the hitbox thread really soon. Like, within the next day or so. I'm kind of swamped with work these days.

 

[standardtoaster]

I'm really busy lately and don't feel up to making the hitbox thread after work each day. If I zipped up the folder with the gifs, would someone mind making a thread with the data? I already have a very small bit of work done on the topic already.

 

[Bones0]

I'll do it. I did the one for the Falco boards, so I can just copy all the formatting from that. If you could just upload the gifs to a photobucket account (I'm sure you can just do a mass-upload type of thing), that'd help though. My internet's pretty slow and unreliable.

 

[standardtoaster]

Well, it'd be much easier for myself to just upload a zip of the images. If you really need someone to upload the pics to photobucket, maybe someone else could do it for you. lol. I'll upload a zip later tonight.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Can you just upload the Zip to this thread?