Massive
Smash Champion
That's why no one likes it.
-
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General Ness discussion
- Thread starter thesage
- Start date
Spekkio Master of War
Smash Cadet
I didnt see enough double jump cancels you should really work on those.
thesage
Smash Hero
What do you guys think about using u-smash to cc?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
What do you mean? CC -> up-smash? Or up-smash to knock down CCers?
Up-smash is slightly faster than f-smash and can lead into some air trapping situations so I see some good merit to using up-smash more. I actually up-smash out of shield sometimes. Lol.
Up-smash is slightly faster than f-smash and can lead into some air trapping situations so I see some good merit to using up-smash more. I actually up-smash out of shield sometimes. Lol.
thesage
Smash Hero
Like take a hit cc up-smash.
I've been suggesting this for the longest
i never actually played around with it tho
i never actually played around with it tho
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Up-smash doesn't lead into anything though, and it only does 8 percent max. CC f-smash is probably better (though 4 frames slower), just for damage. I guess sometimes those 4 frames would make a difference, but not much I don't think.
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
FSmash sounds like its a lot easier to react to, CC to USmash YYG would be awesome.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
CCing is not really that good of a strat with Ness anyway. It's all about dat wd out of shield.
thesage
Smash Hero
You still need to know how to do it. It's one of his problem areas.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
There are only so many situations when Ness's CCing is worth using. Then you have to know how to make the most of it.
Dorsey
Banned via Warnings
Yeah, I'd rather just avoid most of the situations where ccing would even be applicable.
The Irish Mafia
Banned via Administration
hey ness players, long post here.
I've been screwing around with ness a tad recently due to me being back in touch with Mofo for a bit. Unfortunately, he's still inactive, but we've been talking. Figured i'd drop some knowledge while i could:
When he played, Julien (Mofo, in my mind i refer to him by his first name so I'll probably write using that) was always ranting about one aspect of ness metagame or another. He really believed Ness had a spot in the upper-mid tier with his name on it, and he'd carefully review every possible application of every move in basically every situation, either by rehearsing it with me or by practicing it in training mode and looking at frame data. He took his craft rather seriously. It was generally stuff you'd expect only him to think about, like knowing the double jump cancel frame by frame so you could have control of the number of hitboxes, and use different numbers differently, for example. The two things he raved about most immediately before retiring were this:
1) This one is pretty mild, Julien simply thought that Utilt was an underrated move. If you pause during utilt, you can see his fingers get maaaaad long. A good deal of this is disjointed. Though the move can be a little bit of a commitment at times, Ness is low enough to get this move under spacies shorthop approach, and it will outprioritize. On top of it being a good stopper, it's knockback conveniently hits them right into Nesses' bread and butter uair combos. He just thought if there was a viable option for an unsolved problem, you should learn how to make it work every time.
2) Nesses' dair has a 10-frame autocancel window at the beginning. That basically means that until the dair hitbox is out, it can autocancel. On the surface, the application of this is obvious, which would be a fakeout move, or really just abusing the speed an autocancel provides. Julien spent endless ammounts of time with this, and the situation he ended up using it most in was while tech chasing onto a platform. you could jump, dair, then fastfall if you see them going for an option you're not covering, or not fastfall and let the dair hit. One of the last memories i have of him, actually, was him talking about what we nicknamed "The Leadboot", where you'd fullhop, then doublejump halfway through the jump, and on the next frame, do a dair. Ness would drop at a speed comprable to his fastfall, making it appear that his foot was pulling him down. We never figured out much of what to do with that, but we did start to work with this: frame perfect djc dair oos into anything. Believe me, not a lot of things in this game suck like getting hit by a baseball bat from what appears to be an idle, in-shield ness. He really liked using Ftilt out of shield, he said it was quick and ranged enough to make it a viable option. Regardless, as ness is kind of limited when it comes to OoS mobility, I can seriously back this technique. You can go from shielding to standing really fast.
Sorry if this is stuff you guys already know about, but I figured i'd do what i could to help. If i get the chance i'll relay more Mofo intelligence, and i'll probably be around here more just for the sake of the character. <3
Edit: also, how do you show Ness having posession? As in "The dair of Ness". It got kind of confusing for me while writing this.
I've been screwing around with ness a tad recently due to me being back in touch with Mofo for a bit. Unfortunately, he's still inactive, but we've been talking. Figured i'd drop some knowledge while i could:
When he played, Julien (Mofo, in my mind i refer to him by his first name so I'll probably write using that) was always ranting about one aspect of ness metagame or another. He really believed Ness had a spot in the upper-mid tier with his name on it, and he'd carefully review every possible application of every move in basically every situation, either by rehearsing it with me or by practicing it in training mode and looking at frame data. He took his craft rather seriously. It was generally stuff you'd expect only him to think about, like knowing the double jump cancel frame by frame so you could have control of the number of hitboxes, and use different numbers differently, for example. The two things he raved about most immediately before retiring were this:
1) This one is pretty mild, Julien simply thought that Utilt was an underrated move. If you pause during utilt, you can see his fingers get maaaaad long. A good deal of this is disjointed. Though the move can be a little bit of a commitment at times, Ness is low enough to get this move under spacies shorthop approach, and it will outprioritize. On top of it being a good stopper, it's knockback conveniently hits them right into Nesses' bread and butter uair combos. He just thought if there was a viable option for an unsolved problem, you should learn how to make it work every time.
2) Nesses' dair has a 10-frame autocancel window at the beginning. That basically means that until the dair hitbox is out, it can autocancel. On the surface, the application of this is obvious, which would be a fakeout move, or really just abusing the speed an autocancel provides. Julien spent endless ammounts of time with this, and the situation he ended up using it most in was while tech chasing onto a platform. you could jump, dair, then fastfall if you see them going for an option you're not covering, or not fastfall and let the dair hit. One of the last memories i have of him, actually, was him talking about what we nicknamed "The Leadboot", where you'd fullhop, then doublejump halfway through the jump, and on the next frame, do a dair. Ness would drop at a speed comprable to his fastfall, making it appear that his foot was pulling him down. We never figured out much of what to do with that, but we did start to work with this: frame perfect djc dair oos into anything. Believe me, not a lot of things in this game suck like getting hit by a baseball bat from what appears to be an idle, in-shield ness. He really liked using Ftilt out of shield, he said it was quick and ranged enough to make it a viable option. Regardless, as ness is kind of limited when it comes to OoS mobility, I can seriously back this technique. You can go from shielding to standing really fast.
Sorry if this is stuff you guys already know about, but I figured i'd do what i could to help. If i get the chance i'll relay more Mofo intelligence, and i'll probably be around here more just for the sake of the character. <3
Edit: also, how do you show Ness having posession? As in "The dair of Ness". It got kind of confusing for me while writing this.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
"Ness' dair" would be what you'd write.
The Irish Mafia
Banned via Administration
Thanks a ton. So, how much of this is posted every other day on the boards, and how much of this is useful info?
It's actually correct either way as long as you remain consistent in which you choose throughout your text
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You guys should check out my dair shield pressure thread, if you haven't already. It's somewhere recent on the Ness boards.
slizzardking
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 1
I have been DJCing by pressing X twice with the knuckle of my right hand middle finger and flicking the C-stick in my air direction. I use the tip of my middle finger to press-R for my shield/wavedash. Does anyone else do this?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Why would you use your middle finger? I mean, I see how it would work. But isn't it easier to use the index finger?
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
Ness can DairSHDJCFFACOoS (Down air short hop double jump cancel fast fall auto cancel out of shield), that's officially the longest abbreviation ever.
thesage
Smash Hero
I'm pretty sure the correct abbreviation would be djcffdairoosac
or just call it mofo landing or something like that. I don't think it would be that useful though. Isn't it just as fast to wd oos?
You could also do dj landing oos (jump then dj into the ground) which would be faster than any djcdairac. But that is also extremely hard to get frame perfectly. I'm still working on more basic things. I'll focus on getting that down pat later.
or just call it mofo landing or something like that. I don't think it would be that useful though. Isn't it just as fast to wd oos?
You could also do dj landing oos (jump then dj into the ground) which would be faster than any djcdairac. But that is also extremely hard to get frame perfectly. I'm still working on more basic things. I'll focus on getting that down pat later.
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
How do you dj into the ground without pulling out an aerial?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You have to aerial. If you do a DJC dair really close to the ground, it'll autocancel.
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
That's what I was talking about. But according to thesage, you can double jump into the ground.
Sinji
Smash Master
Ness DJ gives a considerable amount of spacing for him.
Jono
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2006
- Messages
- 133
thesage
Smash Hero
You can dj into the ground. All djc characters slightly go down when they dj. It's really easy to do with Peach. Just jump and then dj as quickly as possible.
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
I never knew you could do that. I guess that is faster, but I still like DairSHDJCFFACOoS 
Dorsey
Banned via Warnings
I've gotten some nice shield pokes w/ bair, djc-ing a little into the ground... if the situation permits.
Massive
Smash Champion
The legend of thunderworm continues.
To DJC, I usually put the top of my thumb on Y and the bottom of my thumb on X, then press my thumb down tip>back. After that I tilt my finger over to A with the direction of the move I'm using, unless it's a dair, then I slap the cstick down with my thumb.slizzardking said:
Double tapping relies on the speed of the springy rubber piece inside of the controller, which is NOT TRUSTWORTHY AT ALL.
indie_dave
Smash Ace
More please!
I was reading up on FluxWolf's topic about Fox oos-waveshining. Idk if the current metagame, or any player at any time, successfully incorporates this yet. oos djc dair autocancel sounds like the same level of difficulty. But to echo the motive, a player with this technique could add a scary dimension to their game. Not broken like oos shinedash punishes though.
Would you be able to post frame counts on this badboy?
Let's say a player does master this technique. [Judging by frame advantage] would this be a good punisher?
I don't have access to a cube til a few weeks later, but I'll start messing around with ledge autocanceled dair tech-chases. Sweet.
thesage
Smash Hero
You can dj into the ground faster than djc dair ac. Just try it guys...
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
How much of a window do you have to do it?
thesage
Smash Hero
Like one or two frames maybe lol.
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
O_O Are you joking...that's like...impossible...
indie_dave
Smash Ace
i like to doc upb cancel oos >:3
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
I've seen that before in Perfect Control. How does it work?
indie_dave
Smash Ace
in 1 frame lol
not saying i'm good at it but ppl sure do like to say WTF when it happens :D
basically you up-b, then d-stick the opposite direction (diagonally downward). search the Doc forums for more. Smac has some applications.
ness can be crazy techy both fast AND slow playstyles. kinda cool.
i.e. extra style points for pkt tailwhip "shinespikes" >:3