Meta General MU Help/Discussion

[Sleek Media]

Does Luigi get pushed back by Crash Bomber when he sheilds it? I'd figure that'd be essential in Mega/Luigi.
I personally think this MU is in Megas favor. Luigi has a hard time catching you, and pellets stop fireballs. It's also pretty safe to up tilt Luigi's sheild because it pushes him SUPER far back.

CB doesn't push him back on shield. uTilt is not safe on block either.

Honestly, if smart shielding is beating your pellet game, that means you'll lose against any character against a good opponent and feel like you're at a character disadvantage.

Seriously, enough theorycraft. Get off For Glory and go fight a regionally ranked Luigi main.

 

[Yatterman300]

I figured it didn't. However I haven't fought a Luigi that's ranked in state yet. I usually play random Luigis that I find in a chatroom on xat or Skype and they usually miss punishes when I Upper their sheild.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

The thing is, Sleek Media is right. Shield just makes Lemons unsafe, and that's true against pretty much every single character in the game. Sure, they are our best tool, but remember : LEMONS ARE AND WILL ALWAYS BE A HUGE COMMITMENT. I'm stressing it, but we always forget that.
Now, maybe Dashing in to retreat with Lemons is a good mixup. Do this a good amount of times then try to Dash Grab, maybe ?

 

[Locke 06]

Seriously, enough theorycraft. Get off For Glory and go fight a regionally ranked Luigi main.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I was regionally ranked in Pac. NW and play tourneys. We don't have a good Luigi in Seattle, but I played Robotnik's Luigi (which was his secondary behind his Apex pool clearing Yoshi) and he got shut down so hard that he just SD'd after getting to 60% on his 2nd stock while I was 40% on my 1st.

The point is, Luigi doesn't have an abnormally strong "shield game." And if you ask anyone who is knowledgeable about the game, they'll say he has one of the worst shield games due to his traction (saved only by his NAir OoS)

Telling someone to "get off For Glory" is applicable. But, I feel like I've proven myself enough both through my posts and through my play, that I know what I'm talking about.

Edit: Also, Disorient's Luigi is pretty good, but he won't pull it out against me because he thinks it's a terrible mu.

 

[ENKER]

I agree with Locke.

I think this is the first time I've seen Mega Mains on these boards get close to flaming.

Stop this before it gets stupid. Come on, we don't do this.

 

[Locke 06]

The thing is, Sleek Media is right. Shield just makes Lemons unsafe, and that's true against pretty much every single character in the game. Sure, they are our best tool, but remember : LEMONS ARE AND WILL ALWAYS BE A HUGE COMMITMENT. I'm stressing it, but we always forget that.
Now, maybe Dashing in to retreat with Lemons is a good mixup. Do this a good amount of times then try to Dash Grab, maybe ?

At max range, a lemon on shield is -10. Including shield drop, that's -3. If they don't perfect shield it/get hit during the shield lock frames, it's positive on shield (not that you can do anything to follow up except re-space). Expect a thread on this at some point.

If you press A, it's a 35 frame commitment. It's the lowest commitment we have on the ground outside of grab (f30) [and item throw] but we can also instantly jump or walk out of it. Our lowest commitment in the air, if you hit with the 1st hitbox and land the next frame, would be Back Air at f25 with 21 frames of lag (-13ish on shield and you're at point blank range... also hard to time in terms of landing).

There's your theorycraft. Oh wait, no. That's just data.

Edit: Forgot item throw. lol. That's probably safer and less committal.

On an aside, I think you can interrupt the startup of a pellet with jump and it'll come out 2 or 3 frames after you're airborne. Might not be the right place for this note... but lol it's here.


Edit: as an aside, a reference of a tiny commitment is Diddy's dtilt, which is and 18 frame commitment. We don't have those, as we play Mega Man. It's like Shulks saying their f10 dtilt is fast.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Pellets are never an unsafe move, unless you stand there and Fire 3 without jumping or moving

 

[Locke 06]

Pellets are never an unsafe move

... They are if you don't space them. It still has 28 frames of endlag from when the pellet comes out or 12 frames until the next one comes out (they just last for 17 out of those 28 frames).

 

[Sleek Media]

LOL I don't really care if you beat someone's second, Locke. Anyone can beat a pocket Luigi.

Go ahead and mark it as a positive matchup if having no very bad matchups makes you feel better about playing this character. I already explained my experience with what is arguably the number one Luigi in the United States. If you want to believe Locke's experience beating a friend has somehow granted him insight into our most basic attack that I'm missing, then have fun learning about the matchup the hard way. I'm not here to play debate. I'm here because I like Mega Man and I want to see him win, but there isn't much point if you guys can't figure out something this obvious.

 

[Lufos]

I already explained my experience with what is arguably the number one Luigi in the United States. .

Then it's not so strange you lost? Most of us would probably lose hard against the number one of any character

 

[TriTails]

I mean absolutely no offense to any players I mentioned, but I see Mr. Con Con and False being a better Luigi than Boss is.

Don't get me wrong, Boss is a boss when playing Luigi (He adapts very well, and I take inspiration from him), but ever since seeing him lost to NAKAT (Whom False won to as Luigi), and Mr. Con Con beating ZeRo's Diddy, I saw them as better players than Boss is.

If I may say, I don't think Luigi would do well against Mega. Marking it as even is already very, very generous, but favorable? Seems WAY too far-fetched, no offense.

Oh, and by the way, I'm sorry if my post caused flames between users. I meant nothing of that.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I mean absolutely no offense to any players I mentioned, but I see Mr. Con Con and False being a better Luigi than Boss is.


Don't get me wrong, Boss is a boss when playing Luigi (He adapts very well, and I take inspiration from him), but ever since seeing him lost to NAKAT (Whom False won to as Luigi), and Mr. Con Con beating ZeRo's Diddy, I saw them as better players than Boss is.


If I may say, I don't think Luigi would do well against Mega. Marking it as even is already very, very generous, but favorable? Seems WAY too far-fetched, no offense.


Oh, and by the way, I'm sorry if my post caused flames between users. I meant nothing of that.

Flame wars are the proof of our existence, so I don't care about reading them (or just skip 'em if they don't lead anywhere)
But my point is somewhere between Locke's and Sleek's : Lemons are awesome, since they interrupt, make damage, little stun and can be spammed easily while respacing yourself. Every potent player will do it, I know.
But the thing is, they aren't safe on everyone. Fast characters (which means no ) will just rush in once they get close because they will simply abuse the cooldown. Yes, we can keep moving, but we aren't safe either. In close range, using the Mega Buster only to spray lemonade is just asking for a punish.
I might write another wall of text again, but since I'm a bit tired right now (Finaaaaals... *sobs*), I might just go wrong.
• tl.dr : Close range lemons = bad, spaced lemons = good, Use Nair or Jab&jump in CQC .

 

[Smog753]

I main Falcon and am looking for MegaMan players to practice against on 3DS, if interested reply or PM me. I frequent Anther's ladder and have the same name there.

 

[Fenrir VII]

@ Sleek Media ... stop

You're making assumptions about players here without any evidence and flaming for the sake of flaming. You're arguing against a seriously uphill matchup opinion on this board that is backed up by a number of high-level tourney players.

Pellets are not negative against shield. Arguing that is pretty much arguing that pellets aren't useful, which.... why are you here and how could you think that?

Luigi has slow run speed and low traction, which means he CANNOT close the gap between pellet shots, which our truly bad matchups can. He can't roll through reliably, and he has no moves that outright beat pellets. He can incredibly slowly close the gap if you just stand there and pellet 1,2,3, but he has trouble catching us resetting spacing (with a 2nd jump dair, MB, etc etc etc)

We edgeguard him SO MUCH better than reverse. He has an amazing grab game, yes, but it should be nearly impossible for him to grab you. If you are consistently getting grabbed, it's your fault as a player, not your character's.

 

[Nu~]

@ Sleek Media
Look, I really don't want to reiterate the big picture here that you are clearly missing, so I'm going to start from the source; do you truly believe that smart pellet use < shield?
Because that isn't always the case. If the opponent isn't fast enough to close the gap as mega man resets, then they aren't going to have a good matchup against mega regardless if they use smart shielding or not.

Edit: If you can't covert to advantage against mega man while taking continuous tickle damage during the entire match, you don't win the matchup.

 

[Greward]

I'm sorry but I kinda agree with @ Sleek Media about the luigi matchup. It's not easy nor I think it's in our favour. Saying it's 3-7 is going overboard though lol.
No need to flame either.

About pellets on shield... When you shield them (not power shield, which is actually easy), they have 12 frames of lag (11 frames of normal shield commitment + 1 frame of shield stun since they do 2%. Yeah, hitting a shield replaces shield drop lag with the shield stun lag).
12 frames is the same amount of time we have between firing pellets. So not really an advantage even if he doesn't power shield them, which a seasoned player in the matchup will.

Pellets are still great in this matchup because they break dashes in their initial startup and fireballs. But saying "lol its luigi he will never get in" is wrong. Pellets are very hard to work for someone unexperienced in it, but not for someone experienced.

Just power shielding them + walk can work. When Luigi gets close Mega has nothing, so we have to risk the grab in or try to cross him with jump. Luigi covers both options very well so it's a hard time, and if Luigi gets a hit in it hurts so ****ing much.

On the other side we have that Mega Man has the combo of being heavy + fast faller, which means Luigi combos us super hard. Easily getting between 40% and 60% over a single grab. Ugh.

Mega has also the standard issues getting the kill he usually has. Luigi is not easy to gimp unless he's forced to use side B, which is easy to Bair, but we risk the 1/10 chance of getting hit by lose-a-stock RNG.

I'm currently taking up a new main (I don't think Mega has what it takes) and I believe that in the top tiers he only beats Villager and maybe Rosalina/Diddy (he's ok against Ness and Luigi too but I think both win it).

Oh I also think Falcon isn't that hard for Mega compared to other top tier chars.

ps: I'm talking customs OFF since I very rarely play with customs. Customs definitely improve Mega but I'm not sure if it's enough.

 

[ChopperDave]

Generally, I figured that matchup/tier discussions assumed equal skill between the two characters.

If your defense is "I played the best xxxxx in my region and I got rekt," unless you're confident that you're the best Mega Man in your region that seems like kind of a weak argument.

 

[p1ay6ack]

I'm sorry but I kinda agree with @ Sleek Media about the luigi matchup. It's not easy nor I think it's in our favour. Saying it's 3-7 is going overboard though lol.
No need to flame either.

About pellets on shield... When you shield them (not power shield, which is actually easy), they have 12 frames of lag (11 frames of normal shield commitment + 1 frame of shield stun since they do 2%. Yeah, hitting a shield replaces shield drop lag with the shield stun lag).
12 frames is the same amount of time we have between firing pellets. So not really an advantage even if he doesn't power shield them, which a seasoned player in the matchup will.

Pellets are still great in this matchup because they break dashes in their initial startup and fireballs. But saying "lol its luigi he will never get in" is wrong. Pellets are very hard to work for someone unexperienced in it, but not for someone experienced.

Just power shielding them + walk can work. When Luigi gets close Mega has nothing, so we have to risk the grab in or try to cross him with jump. Luigi covers both options very well so it's a hard time, and if Luigi gets a hit in it hurts so ****ing much.

On the other side we have that Mega Man has the combo of being heavy + fast faller, which means Luigi combos us super hard. Easily getting between 40% and 60% over a single grab. Ugh.

Mega has also the standard issues getting the kill he usually has. Luigi is not easy to gimp unless he's forced to use side B, which is easy to Bair, but we risk the 1/10 chance of getting hit by lose-a-stock RNG.

I'm currently taking up a new main (I don't think Mega has what it takes) and I believe that in the top tiers he only beats Villager and maybe Rosalina/Diddy (he's ok against Ness and Luigi too but I think both win it).

Oh I also think Falcon isn't that hard for Mega compared to other top tier chars.

ps: I'm talking customs OFF since I very rarely play with customs. Customs definitely improve Mega but I'm not sure if it's enough.

yep. i played against mr.concon on wifi. amazing luigi player. he pretty much showed me how luigi can microspace and smart shield at good moments. i felt i had good pellets, and i had him in shield most of the time, but when i wanted to go in, that was when he got in my face, and combo'd me like 40-50%, and it sucks trying to come back to the stage against mr.concon's luigi from the air.

 

[Sleek Media]

Generally, I figured that matchup/tier discussions assumed equal skill between the two characters.

If your defense is "I played the best xxxxx in my region and I got rekt," unless you're confident that you're the best Mega Man in your region that seems like kind of a weak argument.

I expect this kind of post from certain people on the board, but it's disappointing coming from you, @ ChopperDave . My reason is actual META experience. You know, like matchups are supposed to be about? Apparently that's no good here. What's your "defense"? Beating weak players? Speculation about lemons > shield? I should have expected as much from the same group that thinks spamming lemons beats Fox. Get a grip.

And since you think you're entitled to some kind of resume, yes, I am the best Mega Man in MDVA...I've beaten about a third of our top 20 ranked players in tournament, and frankly, there are barely any other Mega Man players to compete with. Many of the ranked MDVA players have streams. Why don't some of you hop on Twitch and challenge them? I'd genuinely love to see videos of someone of you beating Boss, Logic, or Snow with the even-at-worst matchups.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi gimping Mega isn't new. All Luigi need to do is just to take off his double jump with F-air or D-air and Mega is toast. The problem is on how he is going to do it, which can be done fairly easy if Mega recovers Sonic sytle, but there might be another sytle that I am unfamiliar with. And Jumpless Cyclone is godly.

Okay. Rather than start throwing flames around and possibly burn down someone's head. How about y'all give videos on how pellets can keep Luigi out with almost nonexistent chance of him getting in? And how about y'all give videos on how Luigi can get in with proper shield timing? Don't ask me because I'm not good and I have no tourney experience (SSB tourneys are non-existent in my area), but since I'm sure I'm talking to high-level players here, can any of you enlighten me on why your opinions are right?

For example, @ Sleek Media , can you provide us some videos on you getting beaten by Boss?

IMO. 3-7 Mega's favor is not ridiculous, it's in Luigi's favor that is really far-fetched, even if it's 55:45. I just don't see how Luigi is getting in... Maybe Mega messes up or something, and he gets a grab... Perfect play be damned.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I've been trying to get some vids but haven't seen a luigi on the ladder recently.

 

[TriTails]

What I found on YouTube. Customs, but Luigi doesn't use them (Like, WHY!?).

Pellets do wall out Luigi well.

 

[Fenrir VII]

There are ways to have a discussion and convince people on matchups, etc. Your discussion style, Sleek, is not one of those ways. A few general comments here, then I won't waste my time anymore unless there's some honest discussion on here.

-Repeatedly saying things like "your little brother's Luigi", "Get off For Glory", "Beating weak players", etc is a huge assumption about the players you are arguing against. Frankly it comes off as condescending when you really have no reason to. Many of us have a ton of Luigi experience across local good players, top ladder players, etc. It's not like nobody has experience except you.

-Pick what you want to do here... If you want a metagame discussion, then let's talk about how Mega can keep Luigi in shield the entire game, Luigi should never be able to reliably grab Mega, and Mega has the aerial mobility to reset spacing if Luigi can get close. Meanwhile, Luigi can't roll, attack, or run shield thru pellets. Let's talk about how Luigi mains agree that this is a terrible matchup for him.
If you want a specific player discussion... You're saying Boss wrecked you. ...ok.... Frankly from what I know/have seen about you compared to Boss, I would expect that. I'm honestly not trying to flame you here, but you have to admit that when you're talking about a player who can "beat about a third of our top 20 ranked players" matching up against a guy who always places top 5 (who also likely has a ton more Mega experience at your level than you have Luigi experience at his level), it's obvious to expect the top 5 player to stomp you. Don't confuse a bad matchup as one that will allow you to hang with somebody significantly above you. (also sidebar, Boss has no idea how to deal with Rosa as Luigi, so that makes sense too...I've actually seen him CP CF against her)

-How does Luigi get in for the grab in this matchup? Walk shield seems to be his only option... If that truly shut down Mega's pellet game, EVERY matchup would be terrible for him...

-Speaking completely honestly, why does Mega ever need to go in during the matchup? I agree this is boring, but why can't mega continue spacing the entire game, and only commit when MB hits or Luigi tries something laggy? Otherwise, he can rely on the odd spaced fsmash and punishments for Luigi's stuff to get kills.... he doesn't need to force anything.

 

[Greward]

Luigi can get in by powershielding the whole pellet combo. This leaves him with a huge frame advantage he can use to approach. His dash grab is pretty good and we can avoid it by jumping, but if he reads the jump he can stop it with an aerial of him.

Mega shoots a pellet at frame 8 and every 12 frames thereafter, with a 28 frame ending lag after stopping throwing pellets.
They only cause 1 frame of shield stun so a shield that blocks all 3 pellets give him a huge frame advantage.
If he power shields the frame advantage should be superior.
28 frames are a huge commitment and it's enough time for Luigi to get in or get closer (which forces us to grab or stuff). We can retreat and throw more pellets but at some point in time there'll be no more stage to retreat.

Luigi can also approach by rolling it, it's a 30 frames commitment with invulnerability from frame 4 to 19. Well timed he can use that invencibility to avoid a pellet and not be on a frame disadvantage because we have a 28 frame lag from shooting pellets.

This is not the end of the day for Mega, just ways for Luigi to get in. Pellets are good, but far from invincible in neutral game =/

 

[TriTails]

Powershielding the whole pellet combo.

I am sorry my friend, but I am no level 9 CPUs :/.

Interesting on rolling though. I used to think that it may have some uses, so I guess that's true.

 

[Fenrir VII]

RE: rolling in

At normal pellet range, let's assume Luigi rolls in with perfect timing and Mega is just standing. Let's also assume Mega can't read/punish this act.

Luigi's roll does not put him behind Mega from this situation. It puts him in front of Mega with his back to him. This is a bad situation, and Luigi is forced to take another action. If he doesn't shield and Mega presses A, he gets pushed back to the starting position. If he DOES shield, he's forced to jump/dodge/shield drop, all of which put him at a frame disadvantage to Mega again by adding to the 30 frame roll.

So you're telling me that Luigi has to roll in, then have no immediate offensive option, but be forced to take another positional action. We're also assuming Mega just can't read the first roll or whatever action follows, even though he is in an advantageous position to Luigi, and this is going to occur with enough frequency to allow Luigi to win the match. Yeah I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying that this is an answer to pellets that forces anything other than an advantage for mega in terms of matchup discussion.

I actually agree that all characters can slowly push Mega backwards with advancing shield. However, Luigi is among the worst in the game at doing this because A) his run isn't especially fast and B) if he gets hit, his traction pushes him to optimal spacing for Mega. He also simply doesn't have an option of reliably jumping over pellets because his horizontal air movement is bad. So Mega knows that all Luigi can do is essentially walk/run forward with shield and hope Mega over-commits. Very slowly with perfect play, mega gets pushed backward... but here's the thing, Mega's aerial mobility is so much better than Luigi's, so it's not like resetting spacing is hard.
Any further discussion of resetting spacing will likely lead to metagaming, but given that Mega can send downward projectiles while moving around faster than Luigi should back up that Mega can reset.

 

[Locke 06]

I don't think the day of consistent pellet power shielding is here yet (eventually, I think people will try it if Mega stays relevant in the meta). However, I don't think it will ever be that big of a deal. According to how we currently understand powershields, you still go through the shield drop animation after power shielding, but the 7f shield drop can be canceled with an attack. It can not, however, be canceled by moving. Meaning at minimum, movement OoS happens on f10 (PS f1, shield stun f2, shield drop f3-9). So they only get 2 frames of movement before another pellet reaches them, which is insignificant. This is why computers cannot deal with pellets even when they power shield them all.

Power shielding doesn't help your frame advantage if you still need to move. I'm trying to think of a character who would benefit from PS'ing pellets and I'm coming up empty (Mac side-B?). It does, however, keep you from suffering shield damage and shield push back though.

A max spaced single lemon is -10 on block, but including shield lock and shield drop frames, it's between -3 and +4. It hits on f24 though.

Edit again: I think we could use a proper discussion about the counter plays and ways to use our most unique tool. Looking at the ZSS boards got me thinking about shield lock frames and doing a frame data analysis.

 

[ChopperDave]

I expect this kind of post from certain people on the board, but it's disappointing coming from you, @ ChopperDave . My reason is actual META experience. You know, like matchups are supposed to be about? Apparently that's no good here. What's your "defense"? Beating weak players? Speculation about lemons > shield? I should have expected as much from the same group that thinks spamming lemons beats Fox. Get a grip.

And since you think you're entitled to some kind of resume, yes, I am the best Mega Man in MDVA...I've beaten about a third of our top 20 ranked players in tournament, and frankly, there are barely any other Mega Man players to compete with. Many of the ranked MDVA players have streams. Why don't some of you hop on Twitch and challenge them? I'd genuinely love to see videos of someone of you beating Boss, Logic, or Snow with the even-at-worst matchups.

I definitely agree with you that there are certain matchups that we're a bit too sanguine about on this board due to navel gazing about MM's strong neutral game. Yeah, pellets keep characters like Luigi and Sonic out in theory, but all it takes is for them to break our neutral game once and we get combo'd for days. We have to keep in mind the relative reward the characters get for winning the neutral. Our neutral is low risk, low reward--that's MM's design.

This is the reason Falcon can be a tough MU. Sure, we have a lot of ways to keep him out and we edgeguard him hard, but when he gets in, we're at risk of losing a stock, period.

Then again, I also think that we don't always consider some of Mega's big advantages. Uair is pretty huge against Fox, for example, and few people seem to appreciate that. I got rekt by Nakat's Fox months ago because he is frankly a way better player than me, but I still managed to shave stocks off him when he failed to respect my uair. Utilt is an insanely powerful KO tool for reads, on level with some of Dorf's KO reads. I still think people are sleeping on Leaf Shield as a way to get out of disadvantage.

At any rate, I think if we take your argument at face value, there are two ways we can interpret it:

1) Mega Man may be low tier, period, because power shielding is all it takes to beat his zoning game. (Seems that Greward is mostly on board with this argument.)

2) Maybe there's just a difference in skill or playstyle here. It could be that you don't have the patience to play the pellet spam time-out game, which I can totally understand because it can get very boring. Just because it is effective doesn't make it fun. I often find myself overcommitting to a suboptimal, aggressive strategy because of the "fun factor" and will totally cop to this making me perform worse competitively than I otherwise might.

As a diehard Mega Man main, I hope for #2 even if I can acknowledge that #1 may have some truth to it. Boss is a scary Luigi, no doubt, and he may be more afraid of your Rosaluma than he is of your Mega Man. But that doesn't necessarily mean Mega Man has a disadvantage here, or that Luigi players will always be able to beat us if they perfect their powershield timing. It may just be that your Rosaluma playstyle works better against Boss's Luigi playstyle than your MM playstyle does.

Saying that we get consistently beat by power shielding is a pretty strong statement that goes against the conventional wisdom of this boards (and the Luigi board too!). It's not necessarily wrong, but I'm just skeptical because you have a sample size of 1 right now. More data points will be helpful. You seem to have a lot of disdain for theorycraft, but I think frame data like the kind Locke is presenting can be useful objective evidence here.

 

[Greward]

@ Fenrir VII Luigi's jab is kinda a response when he gets in boxing. Frame 2, great range, overall probably the best jab in the game or second/third best (L Mac and Falco might be better).
He can't roll in against full length pellets but he should be able to against middle ranged pellets.

While he rolls in we can jump away though so it's not that bad, but it's an option. And Luigi has good landing punish options, although he's slow so we may get away.
Roll should also be punishable on read.


@ Locke 06 So when you put up shield you have to go over 11 frames of shield commitment lag, after those 11 frames you can drop the shield with just the shield drop lag (which is 7 frames).
If you get hit, the shield drop lag is replaced by the hit shield stun, which in the case of Mega's pellets is 1 frame (since they do 1-2% damage).
So theoretically Luigi should be able to shield all pellets, get a bit backwards because of the pellets (which is not much since pellets are weak) then cancel the shield with just 1 frame of shieldstun.
1 frame of shieldstun versus 28 frames where we are locked to basically stand or jump. It's enough time to get a superior position or even a direct punish.
Powershielding means he should be able to walk in between the 12 frames we have between each pellets. It's actually not hard to powershield mega's pellets. They travel slow and they are predictable, and they also have a distinctive sound each time you shoot one which makes timing the power shield easier.

This doesn't mean that Luigi will get a safe in dash grab against pellets unless pellets are not extremely well spaced. At half range he should be able to get in and over that range he shouldn't.

So mostly Luigi will stay out of pellet range then try to rush in. Pellets appear on frame 8, so if he dash in before we have pellets and shield them he would be succesfulling breaking the neutral game, forcing us to commit to something.


I don't want to say Mega is low tier (i don't think so lol) or hey this matchup is impossible. Not at all, it's an ok matchup for Mega actually. Pellets are still goddamn good in this matchup. Just Luigi HAS options to get in and he'll use them. The matchup comes down to whether we are able to properly reset the neutral when he forces his way in or he gets his stupid lame combos.
We still win neutral game.
All in all I want to say that pellets aren't a barrier that you can just spam and be safe. They have a commitment and can be punished. We don't win any matchup by default just spamming pellets (the closest one would be no pushy lloyd villager actually), but they are still a great tool and noteworthy in Mega's arsenal which require a slight outplay to use.

 

[Locke 06]

Locke 06 So when you put up shield you have to go over 11 frames of shield commitment lag, after those 11 frames you can drop the shield with just the shield drop lag (which is 7 frames).[/USER]

Right, I call the frames between power shield (1-3) and shield commitment (4-11) "shield lock."

If you get hit, the shield drop lag is replaced by the hit shield stun, which in the case of Mega's pellets is 1 frame (since they do 1-2% damage).

Shield drop animation is still 7 frames... no? If not, then that's something new to me.

Powershielding means he should be able to walk in between the 12 frames we have between each pellets. It's actually not hard to powershield mega's pellets. They travel slow and they are predictable, and they also have a distinctive sound each time you shoot one which makes timing the power shield easier.

The issue is that you powershielding does not allow you to move to cancel the shield drop animation (7 frames). This is what I was talking about with my above post.


http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-count-ii-zss-vs-shields.405176/#post-19356319 This is what I was referring to with regards to the ZSS boards and shield lock frames.
http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-32#post-19359504 - Post on powershielding and not being able to move to cancel the shield drop animation.

 

[Funkermonster]

How do you effectively edgeguard Luigi? Particularly his SideB and DownB? My edgeguarding is poop.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Fair, Dair, Bair, Nair are all viable with good timing. I personally find dair easier to land on Luigi than nearly anybody else.... just have to go fairly deep for it.


I'm still not seeing how he gets in. If the answer is seriously "Luigi slowly approaches with shield and pushes Mega back" and the assumption is that mega can't ever land anything or adapt accordingly... that's still not a strong position to say Luigi has the positive match.

I agree about his jab being good, but the roll in scenario that I was discussing (which is by far the most common spacing) doesn't allow him to turnaround jab or really ever use it.

 

[ENKER]

Right, I call the frames between power shield (1-3) and shield commitment (4-11) "shield lock."


Shield drop animation is still 7 frames... no? If not, then that's something new to me.

The issue is that you powershielding does not allow you to move to cancel the shield drop animation (7 frames). This is what I was talking about with my above post.


http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-count-ii-zss-vs-shields.405176/#post-19356319 This is what I was referring to with regards to the ZSS boards and shield lock frames.
http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-32#post-19359504 - Post on powershielding and not being able to move to cancel the shield drop animation.

Let me get this right by asking a question: In order to cancel a crash bomb detonation on us correctly, we need to Power Shield, immediately let go of the shield button, and buffer in a Usmash? (I usually try to buffer in a jump cancelled Usmash)

Do I have this correct?

 

[TriTails]

No one said this MU is in Luigi's favor (Except Sleek Media). Luigi would still have the negative MU even if he knows how to get in simply on how pellets are annoying and shuts down most of his SHAC aerials (SH double F-air is a good tool that autocancels, so you can follow up with a jab afterwards). Leaf Shield are also pretty dang annoying and blocks his Cyclone juggling attempt.

If he can get in, I'd say this is +1 for you. If he can't, well, poop. +3 for you. The differences are based on how he gets so much when getting in, and the fact that he has some pretty good kill setups (RAR B-air out of D-throw). If he can't get in, then Mega just shut down everything. I he can get in, Mega at least has to respect his moves because mistake = punish, and Luigi's punish game is brutal.

 

[Locke 06]

Let me get this right by asking a question: In order to cancel a crash bomb detonation on us correctly, we need to Power Shield, immediately let go of the shield button, and buffer in a Usmash? (I usually try to buffer in a jump cancelled Usmash)

Do I have this correct?

Correct. You can buffer the usmash during the 1 or 2 frames of shield stun the crash bomb explosion hits your perfect shield. Alternatively, you can do any other attack after a power shield and you will cancel the 7f shield drop animation.

Usmash OoS can always be done via jump canceling though (jump OoS>usmash).

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Ill rather try to hit Luigi on the ledge with down tilt or try to punish him once he lands than trying to edge guarding him since it is so risky and non productive.

 

[Greward]

No one said this MU is in Luigi's favor (Except Sleek Media).

Nah i actually think this is even at best for Mega.

How do you effectively edgeguard Luigi? Particularly his SideB and DownB? My edgeguarding is poop.

Bair beats his SideB unless he does a misfire which will end your stock. Bair is like the best option anyways so try to not be unlucky lmao.
Else you can try to punish it's end lag.

DownB is trickier, you can't challenge it head on. Try to read where Luigi is going to end after using it, since it has some ending lag. Well spaced Fair should beat it too but i'd go for the ending lag if I can.

Ill rather try to hit Luigi on the ledge with down tilt or try to punish him once he lands than trying to edge guarding him since it is so risky and non productive.

Situationally you should try to gimp Luigi. Sometimes it's non productive, but some other times it truly is.

 

[Sorichuudo]

DownB is trickier, you can't challenge it head on. Try to read where Luigi is going to end after using it, since it has some ending lag. Well spaced Fair should beat it too but i'd go for the ending lag if I can.

If he comes with down B from below, can we use dair or he just plows trough it?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Dair overprioritizes everything he has with proper spacing. It clanks with his side B if you are early/hit his head.

 

[TriTails]

I'd rather go mix up my recovery by sometimes recovering high. Personally, I'd rather take on Mega's U-airs rather than recover low and get an inevitable spike. At least, I have a chance of surviving that way.

Oh, and if Luigi knows Jumpless Cyclone, don't expect him to Missile anywhere near the ledge, you'll actually have to try to gimp this one, as it has various mixups.

And Luigi hates B-air. Seriously, the hitbox is so ****ing big.