Samwisely
Smash Apprentice
Thank you, I didn't realize it was an empty pivot before ice block, I thought it was during the pivot. So do you just not continue to dash to do the empty pivot? Is it the same input timing as a pivot c-stick?
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
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Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
The trick to the pivot jump desynch is that Nana pivots 6 frames after you, so when you input the jump, she hasn't yet entered the pivot animation. Pivot cancels out Popo's jump input but not Nana's.
There are a lot of other deynchs that work similarly I think. For example, when you pivot jab with Popo, Nana is still in a dashing state when you hit A, causing her to dash attack (she dash attacks in front of you because she automatically turns to face whatever direction Popo is facing). If you dash attack backwards (dash backwards and press A within a few frames afterwards), Popo will dash attack, and Nana will charge forward smash (because she hasn't entered the dashing animation yet). Similarly, if you dash backwards and mash c-stick sideways, Popo will dash and Nana will f-smash.
Thinking about it, it seems like it should be possible to make Popo sh up air and Nana charge an up smash, although I don't think I've seen that happen.
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cemo
white walker
Yeah I know there's applications of one button giving two inputs, I just felt as a neat thought experiment: what other desynchs you could get from inputting two buttons? some states don't allow for certain inputs, or have a different order of priority for moving into other states. So if you were to do the solo popo jump desynch, you could simultaneously wavedash back and blizzard with nana or something.
Keep in mind, these desynchs would all involve same frame inputs so they're probably not very viable, I just think it's neat.
Keep in mind, these desynchs would all involve same frame inputs so they're probably not very viable, I just think it's neat.
It's a different input sorta. You can do some flick, and I remember gravy recently saying an alternate quarter circle motion. I'd recommend just searching for it
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R.I.P.
Smash Cadet
Wait, can someone explain how the Yoshi matchup is anything but impossible? I can't go in or shield at all because he'll just put me in an egg and kill Nana, and I can't camp because his projectile is better than mine.
Unrelated edit just so I don't make two posts in a row: today my school had its now weekly tournament and I predictably lost very early in singles, but I got to GF with a Peach (who I had never played with before) in teams. We came from losers and to reset the bracket we were on Pokemon and it was just me against Falcon. Falcon kneed me off stage and I died but NANA GOT THE KILL TO RESET THE BRACKET. (I had another stock left but it was still crayyyy). Also we have a snow day tomorrow. The Gods are looking down on me.
Unrelated edit just so I don't make two posts in a row: today my school had its now weekly tournament and I predictably lost very early in singles, but I got to GF with a Peach (who I had never played with before) in teams. We came from losers and to reset the bracket we were on Pokemon and it was just me against Falcon. Falcon kneed me off stage and I died but NANA GOT THE KILL TO RESET THE BRACKET. (I had another stock left but it was still crayyyy). Also we have a snow day tomorrow. The Gods are looking down on me.
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R.I.P.
Smash Cadet
Welp.
Does anyone have a problem with Nana randomly dying when attempting to edge guard? When I WD back to ledge most of the time she'll fall down but then jump back to stage, but occasionally I'll just ledge hog her and it's like, should I stop edge guarding to avoid that?
Also another problem is that sometimes when wobbling I'll accidentally do an fsmash rather than a dsmash (it might be conscious, I don't know), and it'll come out but the opponent will still be in my grab. Then they'll get out and I'll of course get another 50% damage on me before I can finally finish the stock. I feel like pros use fsmash all the time without this happening.
Does anyone have a problem with Nana randomly dying when attempting to edge guard? When I WD back to ledge most of the time she'll fall down but then jump back to stage, but occasionally I'll just ledge hog her and it's like, should I stop edge guarding to avoid that?
Also another problem is that sometimes when wobbling I'll accidentally do an fsmash rather than a dsmash (it might be conscious, I don't know), and it'll come out but the opponent will still be in my grab. Then they'll get out and I'll of course get another 50% damage on me before I can finally finish the stock. I feel like pros use fsmash all the time without this happening.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
i don't think i've ever had that problem when i fastfall to the ledge, but next time i play i'll test it out and see if that ever happens to me
I don't know whether this is generally known for ic players or if it's actually useful (I don't play ics), but I just realized this discovery by @schmooblidon http://smashboards.com/threads/official-ask-anyone-frame-things-thread.313889/page-18#post-18513778
can be used to do a fast desynch where only popo dash attacks immediately out of dash back.
It works like this: You tap backward from wait or other non dashing position, and immediately release the stick and press a (on frames 2-5 after pressing back). Because nana cannot smash turn, she simply changes orientation and dashes forward, meaning that she can't do dash attack on frames 1-4 of her dash. But popo is dashing out of turn, so he will dash attack, while nana only dashes.
You can also smash turn jab with popo from non dash states, which also results in the dash forward "eating" nanas dash attack.
Hope this can be used for something!
can be used to do a fast desynch where only popo dash attacks immediately out of dash back.
It works like this: You tap backward from wait or other non dashing position, and immediately release the stick and press a (on frames 2-5 after pressing back). Because nana cannot smash turn, she simply changes orientation and dashes forward, meaning that she can't do dash attack on frames 1-4 of her dash. But popo is dashing out of turn, so he will dash attack, while nana only dashes.
You can also smash turn jab with popo from non dash states, which also results in the dash forward "eating" nanas dash attack.
Hope this can be used for something!
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I tested this out. Couldn't figure out why Nana sometimes lands on the stage and sometimes drifts toward the ledge, BUT
I realized the reason it never happens to me is because I don't just hang on the ledge and do nothing. By the time she would fall to her death, you're already out of invincibility frames, so you shouldn't be hanging there anyways. Drop off and refresh invincibility, use the nana rocket to regrab the ledge and throw her back on stage, or just wait until your opponent is close to the ledge, wavedash on at the last second and use an invincible aerial/waveland/get up to edgeguard them. As soon as you leave the ledge Nana is safe.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Also, if you need to occupy the edge for a while, it's fine to let Nana fall a little below you and then save her with up-B.
941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
Can anyone recommend some good videos to watch for learning Ice Climbers? I've watched most of the well-known videos of the top players, but I'm looking for some videos that are good for learning fundamentals and videos of good players against low/mid-level players.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
What do you guys think about techchasing Fox/Falco/Falcon in order to set up an infinite/handoff at low percents? I practiced today against Fox; the hardest options to cover are tech in place and tech away, but I feel like with good reactions you can still punish them. It's a lot easier on small stages like Yoshi's, where tech rolls get cut short by the ledges.
On larger stages, if you get a synched grab away from the ledge, b-throw -> Nana ice block -> techchase works reasonably well.
Falcon is easier to techchase, but you can also d-throw chaingrab him on reaction, so I don't know if one option is necessarily better than the other.
On larger stages, if you get a synched grab away from the ledge, b-throw -> Nana ice block -> techchase works reasonably well.
Falcon is easier to techchase, but you can also d-throw chaingrab him on reaction, so I don't know if one option is necessarily better than the other.
Have you watched Chu circa 2007? His ICs are a little outdated, but still good for learning fundamentals.
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
Hey guys, there's a quirky desync I've been working on recently and would like more info on it since I doubt it's new.
If you're on a platform, drop down, and quickly waveland back on, Nana will continue to drop down while Popo performs the waveland onto platform. I've been trying to get this consistently but it's decently hard (seems easier when wavelanding backwards?). If anyone has info on this, frame data, video examples, or ideas for usage (I'm thinking waveland forward Popo aerial to Nana blizzard) it would be much appreciated.
I know purposefully putting yourself on a platform even for a moment is risky, but it seems like a fun mixup in neutral :D
EDIT: Well here's a weird application Wobbles did http://youtu.be/fV3QNpesRYo?t=2m13s
If you're on a platform, drop down, and quickly waveland back on, Nana will continue to drop down while Popo performs the waveland onto platform. I've been trying to get this consistently but it's decently hard (seems easier when wavelanding backwards?). If anyone has info on this, frame data, video examples, or ideas for usage (I'm thinking waveland forward Popo aerial to Nana blizzard) it would be much appreciated.
I know purposefully putting yourself on a platform even for a moment is risky, but it seems like a fun mixup in neutral :D
EDIT: Well here's a weird application Wobbles did http://youtu.be/fV3QNpesRYo?t=2m13s
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ShiekShallKill
Smash Cadet
Ok. So can anyone help me wobble? I always set it up right, but they always break free. Any help is useful!
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
1. Grab
2. Wait a fraction of a second until Nana is free to act
3. Start tapping A rhythmically and tilt forward on the control stick
4. People say 200 BPM works well; I think the range is anywhere from 160-220 for f-tilt but don't quote me on that
There are other ways to set it up but this is probably the easiest. There are a few guides floating around that explain it better.
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R.I.P.
Smash Cadet
Decided to be dumb today and started doing a lot of dash grabs, which led to a lot of Popo misses and Nana grabbing and therefore handoff attempts. Probably going to go for that stuff more in friendlies from now on...
It just sounds like you're timing the A button wrong. Unless you mean the down smash to finish it off, which I had a lot of trouble with. Say 1 when Popo hits and 2 when Nana hits, and then at around 140-150 do the down smash on a 1. So 12121212down smash.
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ShiekShallKill
Smash Cadet
I thought you had to d-tilt to start wobbling. Lol. And also, 200 BPS? Sorry, all I do is repeaditly mash the A-Button without counting.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
To add on to what I said earlier, I believe if you shorthop and fastfall immediately before you wavedash, Nana will remain standing on the stage. (SHFF desynch -> Popo wd edgehog)
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
My ideas for techchasing Fox (all assuming either that the grab isn't perfectly synched, or your opponent would be able to mash out before you could start a Wobble)
Situation A: Near the ledge, facing towards the ledge (but not close enough to handoff)
- D-throw
- Move slightly towards them (close enough to grab without getting hit by shine)
- Prepare to react for tech in place/no tech
- If camera bounces, they missed the tech, if camera stays still, tech in place
- Both tech rolls are easy to react to; away is limited by distance to ledge, and towards you is shortened because you're already standing in the middle of the roll distance (you can cover both with normal dash -> grab)
- Keep going till you get a Wobble/handoff
- With Sopo you can fish for d-throw -> no DI -> reverse d-smash, or cover multiple tech options with d-smash
Situation B: "Medium distance" (about half to two-thirds of Battlefield) from the ledge, facing away from the ledge
- B-throw
- Immediately wavedash at a distance that will put you in grab range
- Look for tech in place/no tech
- Covering tech rolls is pretty much identical situation A, but you have to be careful not to wavedash too far
Situation C: Near the ledge (too close for b-throw), but facing away from the ledge
- D-throw
- Immediately turn around and wavedash to the other side of Fox
- Tech roll towards the ledge will be an unpopular option, since it's easy to react to and puts them in a dangerous situation
- Tech roll away becomes much easier to cover since the distance is effectively shortened
- Still look for tech in place/no tech
- Once you get the regrab, refer to Situations A or B
Situation D: Not near any ledge (or medium distance + facing the ledge)
- This will never occur on smaller stages (Yoshi's, Battlefield, FoD)
- If Nana is synched, you can go for a mid-stage handoff, d-throw -> u-smash, or f-throw/b-throw -> ice block
- The ice block makes it easier to cover tech in place/no tech
- However, it doesn't help with tech roll away, which is probably your opponent's safest option; if they reach the end of the stage it will usually push them onto the ledge before you can get there
- D-throw techchases are possible, but it's difficult to cover every option
- On Stadium and FD, I would prefer u-throw combos in most cases
Situation A: Near the ledge, facing towards the ledge (but not close enough to handoff)
- D-throw
- Move slightly towards them (close enough to grab without getting hit by shine)
- Prepare to react for tech in place/no tech
- If camera bounces, they missed the tech, if camera stays still, tech in place
- Both tech rolls are easy to react to; away is limited by distance to ledge, and towards you is shortened because you're already standing in the middle of the roll distance (you can cover both with normal dash -> grab)
- Keep going till you get a Wobble/handoff
- With Sopo you can fish for d-throw -> no DI -> reverse d-smash, or cover multiple tech options with d-smash
Situation B: "Medium distance" (about half to two-thirds of Battlefield) from the ledge, facing away from the ledge
- B-throw
- Immediately wavedash at a distance that will put you in grab range
- Look for tech in place/no tech
- Covering tech rolls is pretty much identical situation A, but you have to be careful not to wavedash too far
Situation C: Near the ledge (too close for b-throw), but facing away from the ledge
- D-throw
- Immediately turn around and wavedash to the other side of Fox
- Tech roll towards the ledge will be an unpopular option, since it's easy to react to and puts them in a dangerous situation
- Tech roll away becomes much easier to cover since the distance is effectively shortened
- Still look for tech in place/no tech
- Once you get the regrab, refer to Situations A or B
Situation D: Not near any ledge (or medium distance + facing the ledge)
- This will never occur on smaller stages (Yoshi's, Battlefield, FoD)
- If Nana is synched, you can go for a mid-stage handoff, d-throw -> u-smash, or f-throw/b-throw -> ice block
- The ice block makes it easier to cover tech in place/no tech
- However, it doesn't help with tech roll away, which is probably your opponent's safest option; if they reach the end of the stage it will usually push them onto the ledge before you can get there
- D-throw techchases are possible, but it's difficult to cover every option
- On Stadium and FD, I would prefer u-throw combos in most cases
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R.I.P.
Smash Cadet
You do. So it's like, grab, jab and start tilting control stick in pretty much any direction (side/down), and keep pressing A at constant rate. Wobbling is easy but it's not like you're saying "hudurrr a a a a a a a" and pressing A sporadically. That just gives IC an even worse reputation than they already have.
ShiekShallKill
Smash Cadet
I've heard you can grab and down b with nana. Is this effective or no?
941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
It has applications but there are usually better options. Chudat did a lot of pummel>blizzard>D-throw>Smash to finish stocks, but players have learned that Wobbling, Handoffs, and regrab combos like D-throw > D-air are usually more effective.
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Sharkz
Smash Ace
I don't know if there's anywhere else to post this, but I would love some help with the Peach matchup. There's a player in my region that I feel takes me out in half my tournaments. I figured I'd go ahead and post it here and see if anyone had any advice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEghsz_PRmU
I don't think I played too well during the first two matches, but game 3 was better. There are a few things I noticed on first glance such as lack of use of squall & blizzard during the first two games as well as waiting for Nana to come over for the wobble instead of dthrow>dairing to wobble. I'd take any kind of advice, especially in neutral. Thanks guys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEghsz_PRmU
I don't think I played too well during the first two matches, but game 3 was better. There are a few things I noticed on first glance such as lack of use of squall & blizzard during the first two games as well as waiting for Nana to come over for the wobble instead of dthrow>dairing to wobble. I'd take any kind of advice, especially in neutral. Thanks guys.
SHIP
Smash Apprentice
Well the most notable thing is that your movement is very obvious. At almost all points it's pretty clear whether you are trying to go in or hang back and wait for the peach to do something.
As you said the squalls and blizzards were definitely lacking. I also feel you should have tried to face away from peach more so you can space with bair.
just play the game and see for yourself, it's very effective ahaha
Dexmaster
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2015
- Messages
- 48
So I've been really interested in Ice Climbers. I like the idea of desynching and would like to start playing them. Does anyone have any matches to watch so I can see how it's done?
Also: How far away does Nana have to be for belay to not activate?
Also: How far away does Nana have to be for belay to not activate?
941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
So there's a Sheik player in my area that I have a difficult time playing against. His fundamentals are very solid, but he isn't very technical. I've noticed that my stage control isn't very good and I don't use U-airs enough but if someone who's more experienced than myself could watch these games and give me some advice that would be very helpful.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5UOVAl7KDU
Sorry if the matches are boring to watch due to no commentary and low-level play.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5UOVAl7KDU
Sorry if the matches are boring to watch due to no commentary and low-level play.
SHIP
Smash Apprentice
You don't grab very much. Comboing sheik is a lot harder than just getting a free chaingrab with sopo or a free wobble.
You shield a lot. Probably too much and don't really seem to be doing much of anything out of your shield. There were definitely times when if you had been able to just jump out of shield and back air your opponent it would have taken the stock or given you an edgeguard situation.
You don't seem to be utilising desynced blizzard enough and your main approach seems to just be wavedash downsmash.
You really don't seem to have a flowchart for edgeguarding sheik worked out. For example 23 seconds into the video sheik basically was dead because they DI'd down and away on your dsmash. The only place they could have gone was the ledge which you were holding.
When edgeguarding sheik first determine the number of places she can go. If she is very far away or very low the only place she can reach is the ledge. If she is at a medium distance she can typically go either on stage or to the ledge. If she is close she can go on stage, to a platform, to the ledge or straight up in the air. For all of them you want to be holding the ledge.
When she goes for the ledge you can either do a well timed stand up or roll or if you have invincibility still, just stay on the edge. If she goes to the stage she has such a high amount of lag that you can simply stand up from the ledge and then grab. If she goes for the platform you should have enough time to stand up then jump and back air. If she goes straight up in the air she is hoping that you will get off the ledge so you can either stay there or stand up then wavedash back on.
It is worth pointing out that when above 100% your stand up animation is slower so you may not be able to cover the on stage and on platform options with it so you may have to make a read on where your opponent is going.
TheRealFluid
Smash Cadet
How do you guys do autocancel up airs. The only success I have had in executing them is through tap jump -> up on the c-stick.
the problem i have is just that it's a tight frame window, i just use tapjump+A
941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
Thanks for the advice. I definitely got in the habit of shielding too much after I realized that my opponent never even tried to grab, and I also realized how much I could have done by using B-air OOS or WDing OOS.
I noticed that I missed that early kill immediately after it happened, I was just distracted by Nana jumping off stage and I messed up by allowing him to grab the ledge.
I don't play against Sheik very much, so if you could give me some advice on what to do when Sheik players run to the edge and throw needles, or how to deal with those late, falling B-airs it would be most helpful.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
X/Y -> tilt up on the control stick -> A
SHIP
Smash Apprentice
Watch some videos of nintendude against sheik players. He seems to have stuff figured out.
I'm not actually all that good against sheiks myself but I know if you do it right ice blocks and blizzards beat needles.
Against falling bair if the sheik is above you for a long time you might be able to hit them with uair before the bair even comes out. Just sheilding it doesn't sound like too bad of a choice as long as you can do something out of your shield.
R.I.P.
Smash Cadet
How was Fly getting all those reverse fsmashes last night?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I uthrow before releasing the fsmash.
Nintendude's approach to the Sheik match-up is very good against the usual sorts of approaches Sheiks take against ICs. I think a lot of what he does is fairly weak against Sheik's ground game, but Sheik's are justifiably reluctant to use tilts against ICs, so that's largely excusable.
Nintendude's approach to the Sheik match-up is very good against the usual sorts of approaches Sheiks take against ICs. I think a lot of what he does is fairly weak against Sheik's ground game, but Sheik's are justifiably reluctant to use tilts against ICs, so that's largely excusable.
Cervidae
Smash Apprentice
So I was practicing just now when I went for a runoff dair, but instead of both Climbers dairing, only Nana daired and Popo faired. Is this a real thing? There's been a bunch of talk about weird c-stick tech going around and was wondering if this might have any relation to specific c-stick input angles.
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
If you think you can do a temporary claw grip, I feel like AC Upair is extremely easy.
Smog
Smash Journeyman
I think there probably is, I notice it alot with rolling/spot dodging. It seems like such a specific angle though it doesn't matter.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
it's the same idea as the solo-smash attack and solo-jump stuff. Very specific, but possible. It's much easier with certain angles than others just because of how the gc controller works.
It's also possible to input an aerial fast enough when you run off the stage or a platform to just aerial with popo, and you can then have nana do a separate input if she's still close enough to you. I'm assuming that's probably the what he did.