Social General Ice Climber Chat

[xKobayashi]

Ok new topic, the other day fly did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka8ltlVQtqU at 13:06

It seemed that while running off stage, he did a reverse up-b nana save-regrab. I haven't gotten back from class to practice this but @ Fly_Amanita : Is this a thing/was it intentional. And is it reliable

 

[S2rulL]

Ok new topic, the other day fly did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka8ltlVQtqU at 13:06

It seemed that while running off stage, he did a reverse up-b nana save-regrab. I haven't gotten back from class to practice this but @ Fly_Amanita : Is this a thing/was it intentional. And is it reliable

it's crazy how ****ing smooth and easy fly makes it seem as well :O

 

[xKobayashi]

Also on topic with up airs, does anyone have the problem where even if you get the auto cancel with popo, nana will not get the autocancel (I normally avoid this by waiting a couple of frames after I auto cancel with popo)

 

[xKobayashi]

it's crazy how ****ing smooth and easy fly makes it seem as well :O

right!!!? have you ever seen that before, like I know how to the nana stall from the ledge, but it looked like he started it from off the stange while running off (like link can do with his up b)

 

[Smog]

Can anyone explain the specifics light shielding to me? I'm practicing WD to grab and I keep light shielding when I press z.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Ok new topic, the other day fly did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka8ltlVQtqU at 13:06

It seemed that while running off stage, he did a reverse up-b nana save-regrab. I haven't gotten back from class to practice this but @ Fly_Amanita : Is this a thing/was it intentional. And is it reliable

It is a thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV3QNpesRYo#t=2m58s

It was pretty clutch in that situation. I'm not sure if you can reverse up+b with solo Popo so it might be risky if you aren't sure she's in range.

Also on topic with up airs, does anyone have the problem where even if you get the auto cancel with popo, nana will not get the autocancel (I normally avoid this by waiting a couple of frames after I auto cancel with popo)

I don't think I've seen this happen; it's possible you're starting the up airs a little bit too late.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Can anyone explain the specifics light shielding to me? I'm practicing WD to grab and I keep light shielding when I press z.

you're pressing Z to early. When you land on the ground (which is what happens when you WD or waveland), there is a set amount of frames you have to wait before you can grab.

 

[OddishGuy]

It is a thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV3QNpesRYo#t=2m58s

I'm not sure if you can reverse up+b with solo Popo so it might be risky if you aren't sure she's in range.

You cannot reverse Up-B with Sopo.
Source: I tried (Oh my god do I try!)

you're pressing Z to early. When you land on the ground (which is what happens when you WD or waveland), there is a set amount of frames you have to wait before you can grab.

Should be 10 frames for waveland, tchnically 14 frames for WD since you have to include the Jumpsquat. Off the top of my head so forgive me if I recalled incorrectly. I usually think of it as about half-way through the WD slide before you can grab.


EDIT: I cannot recall one IC missing the AC. Let me know if this can be done consistently as it would be a funny desync.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Should be 10 frames for waveland, tchnically 14 frames for WD since you have to include the Jumpsquat. Off the top of my head so forgive me if I recalled incorrectly. I usually think of it as about half-way through the WD slide before you can grab.


EDIT: I cannot recall one IC missing the AC. Let me know if this can be done consistently as it would be a funny desync.

Uh I can't remember off the top of my head but 10 frames sounds about right. Im not sure, but its significant.

Im also not sure about desyncing off an AC aerial, I don't think you can do it, since nana is just recieving the inputs later than you (this is included with when she jumps), but it might be possible.

A great desync nobody uses (myself included) is the L-cancel desync. It's so good. I'm trying to work on making that, ftilt, and dd my go to desyncs and erasing roll and spotdodge from my memory banks.


Also some things I want to talk about:
1. The ICs have an amazing (and under used) walk. We like to approach/retreat with WD a little more than we should, and walk is ridiculous.

2. I'm going to work on practical applications for dash cancelled utilts. I used to use them all the time with pichu/fox, but I never used them with ICs. They are pretty good though, because I like dashing on the ground a lot more than WD in most cases.
I find these useful against characters who like to hop over you when you approach them on the ground (fox, falco, falcon, ganon come to mind)

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It is possible to have Popo AC uair and not Nana. It's not something I intentionally make much use of since I'd rather do other desynchs.

The L-cancel desynch is pretty neat.

Walking is good for minor repositioning and for approaching characters with bad responses to crouching.

 

[Benny P]

What's everybody's opinion on hitting with the Hammer on Ice Shot (B) ? I forget, but i think the damage/knockback was fairly decent....

 

[TheRealFluid]

What's everybody's opinion on hitting with the Hammer on Ice Shot (B) ? I forget, but i think the damage/knockback was fairly decent....

Covering Tech options on platforms with the hammer Ice Shot is pretty legit. In some rare instances, the hammer could lead to a grab setup: http://youtu.be/u1db9ZCqsqY?t=6m59s

 

[Samwisely]

Can we have a conversation on improvement? I feel like I've stagnated in my gameplay, and it sucks, because it's nowhere near where I'd like to be. I know the key to getting better is playing people better than you, but what exactly do you guys look for? IC specific, I feel like I have a bad idea of when desyncs are safe and when to approach, but I'm having a hard time turning that knowledge into discernible improvement, but training myself to choose different options is taking way longer than I'd like

 

[Benny P]

Can we have a conversation on improvement? I feel like I've stagnated in my gameplay, and it sucks, because it's nowhere near where I'd like to be. I know the key to getting better is playing people better than you, but what exactly do you guys look for? IC specific, I feel like I have a bad idea of when desyncs are safe and when to approach, but I'm having a hard time turning that knowledge into discernible improvement, but training myself to choose different options is taking way longer than I'd like

Might have to be it's own thread for how big it is

then again, everything mentioned in here may as well be its own thread

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yo so ICs can totally aerial interupt on the moving platforms on FoD. It's cool as hell.
If anyone has the ability to look into this framewise and see if like Uair maintains a hitbox or anything that'd be cool.

On the subject of improving the key is to take a break if you get frustrated, put in a lot of time into learning and developing, rather than copying, and learning to enjoy the game and your character no matter what.

 

[Smog]

The other day I was messing around on dreamland and found you can do the air-dodge platform desync towards the ledge, grab ledge with Popo after he finishes air-dodging, and get an aerial out with Nana at pretty much the same time. It works really well on Yoshi's with the time it take for Bair to come out. It's super hard to do though.
I actually made Nana f-smash and grab ledge with Popo at the exact same time on Yoshi's

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Yo so ICs can totally aerial interupt on the moving platforms on FoD. It's cool as hell.
If anyone has the ability to look into this framewise and see if like Uair maintains a hitbox or anything that'd be cool.

Aerial interrupts tend to be done very specifically. What are you doing to aerial interrupt on these platforms?

 

[dizzkidboogie]

How do you guys do autocancel up airs. The only success I have had in executing them is through tap jump -> up on the c-stick.

I short hop by flicking the edge of the X button with my thumb, tilting up on the joystick, and pressing Z. It gives me the fastest possible timing (considering the way that I short hop) but you have to be sure not to press Z too soon, or else you'll get a JC grab.

 

[dizzkidboogie]

I don't know if there's anywhere else to post this, but I would love some help with the Peach matchup. There's a player in my region that I feel takes me out in half my tournaments. I figured I'd go ahead and post it here and see if anyone had any advice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEghsz_PRmU

I don't think I played too well during the first two matches, but game 3 was better. There are a few things I noticed on first glance such as lack of use of squall & blizzard during the first two games as well as waiting for Nana to come over for the wobble instead of dthrow>dairing to wobble. I'd take any kind of advice, especially in neutral. Thanks guys.

At 3:13, you gave up and killed yourself. DON'T EVER GIVE UP! Seriously, don't ever give up! You can mix up your squall recovery in ways to help you survive against a peach, even if you're way out there (e.g. go high 3 times, then go low and they miss you). The conditioning aspect is surprisingly powerful; take advantage of it! Also, try to get REALLY familiar with the spacing required to encourage Peach to dsmash, but not let the dsmash hit you. It's really easy to punish, even if the first hit of it hits your shield, and Peaches LOVE to dsmash, so you can bait them into doing it a lot when it's not actually safe.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Aerial interrupts tend to be done very specifically. What are you doing to aerial interrupt on these platforms?

I did SH nair while the platform was moving upwards. I want to play around with this more and make sure it was actually an aerial interupt and not something weird.

 

[R.I.P.]

So is forward throw regrab a thing at all? I think it looks cooler than down throw regrab but I don't know if it's like impossible to do consistently or not.

 

[DerfMidWest]

So is forward throw regrab a thing at all? I think it looks cooler than down throw regrab but I don't know if it's like impossible to do consistently or not.

You can handoff with fthrow.
When by the ledge nana always fthrows, so when you see extended handoffs, fthrow is involved.

There are a couple other little tricks you can do with it, a lot of which are based off DI.

 

[OddishGuy]

Is there any way to get Nana out of teeter without getting back onto the stage?

I did SH nair while the platform was moving upwards. I want to play around with this more and make sure it was actually an aerial interupt and not something weird.

I don't know a ton about AI's so I tested this a little. I don't think it's possible to Aerial Interrupt with ICs, (at least not in the sense that you get an AC).

However, on moving platforms it may be different so I'll try continue testing this for yah

EDIT: Holy crap it actually worked....
SH Aerial Interrupt/AC Nair on a rising FoD platform does indeed work. I'll try to get what scrubby frame data I can, but basically. Start SH when your head is just barely above the rising platform, the rising platforms seem to slow down midway through the rise, this is about the point you Nair to perform the AI. I did this with Sopo, but I assume since the platform is rising Nana would fail the Aerial Interrupt and this would work as an incredibly stylish desync.


EDIT 2: with some decent frame data (If it's not completely accurate MB, I think the jump may be off by one frame, counting is hard but I'm really confident in it)

Frame 0 platform rises
get under platform or drop down from it IDK
91
Frame 91 jump
14 (including jumpsquat)
Frame 106 perform nair
4 (1 frame for aerial, landing 3)
Frame 110 free to act and do cool IC stuff (I took this opportunity to... jab)


EDIT 3: This does desync as Nana will not Aerial Interrupt; she will miss the rising platform and nair.

EDIT 4: This works for Upair as well, seems to be same timing as Nair. Nana got the Aerial Interrupt as well this time and stayed synced. IDK the exact timing, but I think the Upair may be more lenient since Nana got it even with her delay.

EDIT 5: and to answer Derf's older question, no hitbox should come out as the aerial is interrupted before a hitbox appears.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Haha **** yeah. And I just had to make sure about the hitbox since a few characters (pichu, mario, doc, etc) can AI and have an active hitbox.

But I'm gonna play around with this more. It's hard as hell though since you don't really know how high the platforms will rise.

 

[Smog]

Should I be L-cancelling the full hop Dair CG when Nana dairs? Will it help or no? Also I can't get the short hop Dair chain-grab super consistently. Sometimes I full hop, sometimes I dsmash, and sometimes I even iceblock. Any tips? I've practiced alllot.
I just realized on Captain Falcon you usually L-cancel automatically. On Marth though you don't.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2MeGZ7Xpfc

At 4:51, did Wobbles miss the L-Cancel on Popo's up air so that he could input a jump with Nana and do a back air? Was the desync intentional or did Nana just do that on her own?

Also, how did Wobble do that desynch Fsmash at 6:20?

 

[Kyu Puff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2MeGZ7Xpfc

At 4:51, did Wobbles miss the L-Cancel on Popo's up air so that he could input a jump with Nana and do a back air? Was the desync intentional or did Nana just do that on her own?

Also, how did Wobble do that desynch Fsmash at 6:20?

The back-air was probably intentional; I don't think Wobbles meant to desynch though, because a double back-air would've been stronger.

The desynch at 6:20 looks like pivot f-smash -> Nana blizzard.

 

[OddishGuy]

I've had trouble with the Frame Perfect Desyncs so I've been trying out some frame by frame stuff.

Yet even with Frame by frame I wasn't able to get the FF desync (AKA true landing desync) consistently. I jumped, FF, landed, and input anything on the 4th frame of landing, the last frame before Popo is able to act, however Nana only performed the action a fraction of the time.

My best guess is that it has to do with when you initiate the fastfall. Meaning, you have to get the FF on one of the correct frames and then perform the desync like normal and it will work, but if you FF on a "nonviable" frame the desync fails.

...

This appears to be the same case for the Landing Iceblock desync (AKA "Stuck Nana") if you choose to FF it. If you FF on some frames it will work but on others the desync becomes impossible to execute.

Landing Iceblock desync from a FJ (no FF) works, but from SH it needs to be FF (it works if you FF on the first possible frame, but if you are 1 or 2 frames late there's no chance, 3 frames late though and you have a window for it again)


In short, I would not recommend the FF desync as it seems unreliable. The stuck Nana desync from FJ is reliable and possibly worth learning. The SH FF landing iceblock desync seems very difficult with two consecutive frame perfect inputs.


If someone can refute this please let me know. These were two desyncs that I really enjoyed in theory so I'm sad if this is the case.

 

[S2rulL]

so i decided i was gonna play more focussed on neutral as opposed to focussing on grabs and wobbling and such and everyone in my scene said it is a "terrible idea" and said "you were only good because of wobbling"

today at our weekly smashfest i was consistently three-stocking people and my movement overall felt more fluid and just better in general

i'm not gonna stop wobbling by any means, but just consider this a motivator to those who are worried about playing w/o wobbling, cus i believe that if i can do it, anyone can! (trust me, i thought i'd suck without it, sometimes you surprise yourself)

 

[DerfMidWest]

so i decided i was gonna play more focussed on neutral as opposed to focussing on grabs and wobbling and such and everyone in my scene said it is a "terrible idea" and said "you were only good because of wobbling"

today at our weekly smashfest i was consistently three-stocking people and my movement overall felt more fluid and just better in general

i'm not gonna stop wobbling by any means, but just consider this a motivator to those who are worried about playing w/o wobbling, cus i believe that if i can do it, anyone can! (trust me, i thought i'd suck without it, sometimes you surprise yourself)

If your play is ever lacking in one area, you need to focus on improving that area.
So if your punish game is great, but your neutral blows, you gotta work on the neutral (or vice versa)

Its also very easy to slip into the habit of being over reliant on wobbling/cgs and not focusing on improving your movement, tech skill, or working on more mental aspects of the game.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Something interesting here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udHj_hQBSqk#t=2m33s

I can't tell if it shieldpoked, or if he jumped and it meteor spiked him into the platform. Either way it's an interesting alternative to sh u-air for poking through the bottom of side platforms without leaving yourself vulnerable.

 

[cupofwater]

That is interesting, does f-air poke through platforms on Dreamland? Seems like a good alternative to u-airs since they don't poke through those platforms. Through my investigations on 20XX, it was very hard to tell if it did, but it looked unlikely.

 

[xKobayashi]

Something interesting here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udHj_hQBSqk#t=2m33s

lolol i get a shoutout in this video, what a coincidence

 

[Kyu Puff]

That is interesting, does f-air poke through platforms on Dreamland? Seems like a good alternative to u-airs since they don't poke through those platforms. Through my investigations on 20XX, it was very hard to tell if it did, but it looked unlikely.

Sh u-air can actually poke through the Dreamland platforms, but only if you start u-air near the peak of your jump. The typical earliest-possible sh u-air doesn't poke for some reason. Just tested and f-air does poke. I can imagine f-air being useful in situations where someone is trying either to CC or shield drop on a platform; against CC it has stronger knockback than u-air and is more likely to ground them, and against shield drop it allows you to get out of the way faster since you can fastfall it.

I also recently decided to start using up+b to refresh my ledge invincibility, rather than drop off -> double jump, for a few reasons:

- Can keep invulnerability the whole time
- Not susceptible to run-off aerials or shine
- It looks way cooler (snow effect above Popo's hands)


On another unrelated note, does anyone know why ICs u-tilt sometimes pushes them backwards on hit?

lolol i get a shoutout in this video, what a coincidence

Sup dude, you ever get out to Socal regionals? I just started playing again recently so I don't think we've been at any of the same tournaments, but if it happens we should play some dittos

 

[OddishGuy]

I also recently decided to start using up+b to refresh my ledge invincibility, rather than drop off -> double jump, for a few reasons:

- Can keep invulnerability the whole time
- Not susceptible to run-off aerials or shine
- It looks way cooler (snow effect above Popo's hands)

If I'm not mistaken there are quite a few frames of vulnerability. Is there some way to cancel it earlier than usual? =o

It's better than DJ no matter what but I'd like to know how to make it completely invulnerable.

 

[DerfMidWest]

If I'm not mistaken there are quite a few frames of vulnerability. Is there some way to cancel it earlier than usual? =o

It's better than DJ no matter what but I'd like to know how to make it completely invulnerable.

he's talking about with sopo. You just hit back, then upB back to the ledge without double jumping.
It's really good, they can sneak the ledge from you pretty easily though.

 

[Kyu Puff]

lolol i get a shoutout in this video, what a coincidence

he's talking about with sopo. You just hit back, then upB back to the ledge without double jumping.
It's really good, they can sneak the ledge from you pretty easily though.

Yeah, this. The way I do it is down (to fast fall) and then up+B without double jump. I can't find frame data that confirms it's invincible, but I think I remember seeing a gif somewhere. It's really fast in either case.

And true, they can sneak the ledge easily since there's no hitbox, and unlike with double jump ledge grab you can't rising up air or airdodge to save yourself. But if the opponent is in position to take the ledge they're usually in range to get invinicibly d-smashed, so there's that.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yeah, this. The way I do it is down (to fast fall) and then up+B without double jump. I can't find frame data that confirms it's invincible, but I think I remember seeing a gif somewhere. It's really fast in either case.

And true, they can sneak the ledge easily since there's no hitbox, and unlike with double jump ledge grab you can't rising up air or airdodge to save yourself. But if the opponent is in position to take the ledge they're usually in range to get invinicibly d-smashed, so there's that.

yeah I mean you can just react to their position, but it's a fairly unforgiving stall. Still good though.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I just spent a little time trying to find a source for belay being a true stall. Couldn't find one, but I did find a post that seems to imply Popo has an invincible haxdash. I've never tried that with ICs, but it could be the "best" option, although likely much harder to execute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-...-most-characters-can-do.336751/#post-15540533

 

[OddishGuy]

he's talking about with sopo. You just hit back, then upB back to the ledge without double jumping.
It's really good, they can sneak the ledge from you pretty easily though.

Yeah, I was assuming Sopo. I've tested this once before and I think you have around 11 frames of vulnerability. I'll test it again, maybe using brinstar acid this time, IDK.

I just spent a little time trying to find a source for belay being a true stall. Couldn't find one, but I did find a post that seems to imply Popo has an invincible haxdash. I've never tried that with ICs, but it could be the "best" option, although likely much harder to execute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-...-most-characters-can-do.336751/#post-15540533

This is the first I've hear of Popo's Hax-Dash. I've tried doing this before but not for long. I'll try to do it again, maybe it's frame perfect or something.