Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Ringedge]

I've improved a ton since I started competing back in September, working on consistent wavedashing, desynchs, wobbling, hand-offs, etc. Generally been in the lab. I still have a long way to go, but I want to be the best Ice Climber main in my state (Minnesota, so nothing notable). We'll see what comes after that.

In order to prove that progress, I just challenged the most well-known IC main in state to a MM at our next monthly. What should be doing in an Ice Climber ditto?

Split up his climbers with back throw, it has a pretty large hit box around it when throwing, and go in on his nana.

 

[Shufu]

Hey guys, I was able to get some serious friendly sets recorded recently. Please critique my icies, I make tons of bad decisions in these matches but only a few are obvious to me.

http://www.twitch.tv/fuzzyness/b/590606503

[4:00] Professor Pro (Fox)
[57:40] BrTarolg (Sheik)
[1:38:25] Professor Pro (Fox)
[1:50:10] Fuzzyness (Falcon)

note:

• if I spotdodge randomly on a platform, It's usually a failed shield drop (I'm generally very consistent with them but sometimes my controller's neutral wasn't set well and I forget to replug the controller in)
• I usually don't wobble in friendlies, my neutral game is bad so I'd rather practise that, plus handoffs are fun

Thanks

 

[DerfMidWest]

I catch in the air all the time when synced.
Since you can make nana do weird things like nair, dair, or fair you can approach peach while catching the turnip and she either shields or gets hit.
You can also combo the turnip throw off of fair or nair. You can also opt to not L-cancel upon landing, and that lets you desync popo before throwing the turnip.
It's definitely not extremely safe, but it's cute and I think it's good every once in awhile.

 

[S2rulL]

Hey guys, I was able to get some serious friendly sets recorded recently. Please critique my icies, I make tons of bad decisions in these matches but only a few are obvious to me.

http://www.twitch.tv/fuzzyness/b/590606503

[4:00] Professor Pro (Fox)
[57:40] BrTarolg (Sheik)
[1:38:25] Professor Pro (Fox)
[1:50:10] Fuzzyness (Falcon)

note:

• if I spotdodge randomly on a platform, It's usually a failed shield drop (I'm generally very consistent with them but sometimes my controller's neutral wasn't set well and I forget to replug the controller in)
• I usually don't wobble in friendlies, my neutral game is bad so I'd rather practise that, plus handoffs are fun

Thanks

Shuuuuuuffuuuuuuuuuuu! Anyways, so I understand that it's Prof's Fox which is just ridiculously strong, but you're starting the match off by going in WAY too hard, and as Prof is playing the most aggressive char in the game, it's easy for him to spot when you're leaving Nana on her lonesome and he's punishing the crap outta you for it. Maybe play a little more conservative rather than going in at the toll of the bell.

 

[choknater]

whoever kills the other guy's nana first has a huge advantage

dsmash is really fast and really good. hard to shield grab, and hits nana very often. generally the more aggressive ice climber can steal momentum quickly.

back throw has a hitbox, so it is one of the best ways to separate the two ic's because you'll hit both ic's with the throw.

when you are between your opponent's two ic's, nana will generally run toward popo without doing anything else. all you have to do in this situation is charge up a dsmash and nana will run into it

defensive desynced blizzard/block walling is very powerful during a 2v1 situation

 

[Binx]

Hey guys long time no see!

So I've finally found time to get back into smash I've been experimenting with spacies and getting more technical with every character I play. While I was on hiatus Oregon gained a few new IC faces. So now I need to learn the IC ditto or I can keep being a buster and play Fox like I did the last few times I've played them since Im basically even in match count in the ditto which I didn't want to risk.

Based on the higher level dittos that I have watched it seems like there are basically 3 main options when its synched vs synched with a few riskier options. If I can get some people to check my understanding that would be helpful.

So the 3 main options are

1) Downsmash: this move beats slower dsmashes is usually wavedashed into and it in general seems to beat many of the dash options.
2) Fair: this seems to beat dmash if spaced properly
3) Blizzard desynchs: if you have time to get a safe blizzard it seems really good as it snuffs all wavedash options.

Unsafe/Situational options

1) Aerials - Even fair is somewhat risky because if they aren't approaching I feel like they can smash you or grab you on reaction. Maybe it is safe retreating?
2) Grabs - Outside of punishing missed attacks grabs seem terrible in this match up in neutral, which is generally the case but since our punish game is so much weaker on 2 ICs vs a single character its much riskier to guess at a shield option. The risk reward just doesnt seem to be there. If you do get a grab and can react quickly I think backthrow is almost always a good choice to split up the climbers and kill Nana but I think there are times where up throw can be correct as well.
3) Back air: One of my favorite moves in most match ups just doesnt hit at the right height in the ditto to counter the approaches of the other climber. It is a very powerful edgeguarding tool and in some cases you can waveland off a platform into it.

The main prioritie seems to be to kill Nana since once she is dead you can spend more time in shield and wall out with blizzard until you get a solid opening for grab combos into kills.

Solo climber vs Solo climber

In this part of the match up movement is opening up much more for both characters dsmash from a single climber has a much shorter hit box since Nana isnt there to repeat it and thus is much easier to punish via shielding into stuff or by timing your fairs. U-throw becomes a very strong throw option at 30-40% since ICs uair completely destroys all other aerials from above that ICs have access to. Dthrow solo chain grabs open up and nair becomes a decent combo ender. The climber who reaches this state with low percent have a large advantage due to the crouch cancel option eliminating jabs as a safe option.

This analysis is based off of maybe 30 minutes of video if anyone has anything to add or correct so I can figure it out would be very helpful. Thanks.

 

[Ringedge]

You're from Oregon? Are you coming to North West Regionals?

 

[Binx]

Probably not. My brother will be there though. I'm super busy with school and I just started a job as a tax preparer. If it were cheaper I would probably travel to it but the combinations of costs and time just isn't worth it right now for me =/

 

[Fly_Amanita]

2) Grabs - Outside of punishing missed attacks grabs seem terrible in this match up in neutral, which is generally the case but since our punish game is so much weaker on 2 ICs vs a single character its much riskier to guess at a shield option. The risk reward just doesnt seem to be there. If you do get a grab and can react quickly I think backthrow is almost always a good choice to split up the climbers and kill Nana but I think there are times where up throw can be correct as well.

This part is at the very least misleading. Grabs are very important and are the probably the most significant way of separating the other ICs, mainly via bthrow. Not something you can throw out all the time due to small hitboxes, but it's at the very least a much better neutral option than dsmash is.

 

[S2rulL]

So @ S Smasher89 is at Beauty9 in Sweden, and he's currently in loser's bracket. Let's raise our hands to fuel his spirit bomb to run it back! http://twitch.tv/ArmadaUGS

 

[shuall]

I've improved a ton since I started competing back in September, working on consistent wavedashing, desynchs, wobbling, hand-offs, etc. Generally been in the lab. I still have a long way to go, but I want to be the best Ice Climber main in my state (Minnesota, so nothing notable). We'll see what comes after that.

In order to prove that progress, I just challenged the most well-known IC main in state to a MM at our next monthly. What should be doing in an Ice Climber ditto?

While I was wrecking in IC dittos with mindless nana blizzard -> bthrow -> dsmash -> dsmash -> dsmash... Cactuar managed to shut me down by playing really aerial based ICs (and probably smarter play). He was just beating me bad, and I was trying to figure out what he was doing differently, and he wasn't trying desyncs or anything fancy to approach, he was just baiting grabs and punishing with synced bairs (or fairs if he wanted to space farther). I'm trying to incorporate this more in my games vs another local IC who also approaches IC dittos with bthrow dsmash mentality.

So, try the other stuff first, because it's super effective, but if the other IC knows to do this as well, and is looking for the same bthrow dsmash openings, think about moving your ICs off the ground the next game.

 

[DerfMidWest]

grabbing is great in the ditto lol.

 

[S2rulL]

Grabbing and d-smashing is what I've found most effective in the ditto lmao

 

[Vanitas]

An old post, but a good read:
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-defeat-ice-climbers.322025/

It would be beneficial if there was a thread for how WE can win the neutral game.

 

[Smasher89]

https://www.youtube.com/user/pvbuerkner/playlists

Had a few sets on the beuty pools and brackets streamed.

Had a small breakthrough in one of the bracketsets, the other i got split up too mcuh for a reason ill look more into.

 

[Svvagcube]

Just some general questions, feeling like they don't need a specific thread at this time.

PAL Ice Climbers, any major differences to the NTSC ones? Do I need to be aware of anything when reading guides written for NTSC-ICs? (I'd assume that due to the top-tier characters being nerfed in PAL the ICs would perform a little better, true?)

 

[FlamingForce]

Apart from early NTSC versions making it impossible to sdi out of utilt (Only in ntsc 1.0 I believe) and the lack of a freeze glitch, there are no differences.

 

[Smog]

I've been working on my Fair SHFFLs and I have 2 problems.
First, if I fastfall the Fair, the hitboxes don't come out. Am I pressing over+a to late? Or do you not fastfall for that particular aerial?
Also if I spike someone with a f-smash onto the stage, what can I punish them with afterwards? Do I have to read their DI, or is jab grab a good option?

 

[Smasher89]

I think Ics pummel slightly faster on the NTSC version (which is kinda nice for ICs, since that gives faster wobblingsetup)

 

[MS DOS]

I've been working on my Fair SHFFLs and I have 2 problems.
First, if I fastfall the Fair, the hitboxes don't come out. Am I pressing over+a to late? Or do you not fastfall for that particular aerial?
Also if I spike someone with a f-smash onto the stage, what can I punish them with afterwards? Do I have to read their DI, or is jab grab a good option?

F-air isn't really a good option for shffling, at least in the neutral. It's probably best to not fast-fall, if you really want the hitboxes to come out.
Whether or not you can punish the meteor (not spike, so don't rely on f-air offstage or anything) depends by in large on if the opponent techs it, and in which direction they tech in. If they don't tech, I usually d-smash. If they roll, I'll try and chase for a grab, or wd -> d-smash.
I could be wrong in all of this, though, since I'm definitely not an authority on ICs~

 

[Smog]

Oh. I read in the matchup thread against marth you should SHFFL f-air against his down tilt, but I think he meant just to dodge the d-tilt and be able to punish.
I'm a very new player and marth gives me a lot of trouble. I think marth is just an easy character to beat people with at first because of his reach and somewhat easy combos. I was playing my friend yesterday and could beat him if he used any character but marth and fox.

 

[OddishGuy]

Oh. I read in the matchup thread against marth you should SHFFL f-air against his down tilt, but I think he meant just to dodge the d-tilt and be able to punish.
I'm a very new player and marth gives me a lot of trouble. I think marth is just an easy character to beat people with at first because of his reach and somewhat easy combos. I was playing my friend yesterday and could beat him if he used any character but marth and fox.

"his d-tilts are beatable with short hopped f-air" -Wobbles in Matchup thread.
Don't fastfall the Fair. Fair is the best/fastest option against D-tilt. Main other option is to try to outrange with blizzard, but that goes for any Marth move. One thing I see Fly do a little in this matchup is desync -> Nana blizzard -> SH Popo Blizzard -> SH Nana blizzard to get three blizzards all in the same direction. So that's something to keep in mind.

 

[Binx]

With Marth you want to stay out of his fair range and if he ever does and approaching fair punish it. Your best tools are dash attack up air and forward air. I'm also willing to make hard reads and roll behind him during pressure but that's not always safe. You can force Marth to approach using Ice blocks but focus on getting a good stage position first. Do your best to stay below him and just punish hard with grabs and stuff and the match up is manageable. Try watching wobbles vs taj or fly vs ken.

 

[Samwisely]

What would an Ice Climber's trials be? This essentially functions as a practice routine. What do you all think that routine should be? Basically, what are things all IC mains should know, and how should you practice them?

I'm taking this idea from these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IACW5mltqY - Marth Trials
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb_B_2TEHBA - Falco Trials

 

[MS DOS]

What would an Ice Climber's trials be? This essentially functions as a practice routine. What do you all think that routine should be? Basically, what are things all IC mains should know, and how should you practice them?

Most of my practice comes from different grab combos. For example, I've been practicing consistency with the ledge chaingrab on top 8 characters for the past week or so. I've also been practicing down-throw -> down-air, on Falcon mostly. If it floats your boat, you should practice wobbling, and at the very least understand how the infinite works.
It's also crucial to understand desynchs, and be able to preform the bread and butter desynchs on command. This is all just my opinion, though.

 

[Smog]

Most of my practice comes from different grab combos. For example, I've been practicing consistency with the ledge chaingrab on top 8 characters for the past week or so. I've also been practicing down-throw -> down-air, on Falcon mostly. If it floats your boat, you should practice wobbling, and at the very least understand how the infinite works.
It's also crucial to understand desynchs, and be able to preform the bread and butter desynchs on command. This is all just my opinion, though.

I was just about to ask about this kinda. What is the point of the hand-off and down throw down air? Why not just wobble to down smash?

 

[DerfMidWest]

What would an Ice Climber's trials be? This essentially functions as a practice routine. What do you all think that routine should be? Basically, what are things all IC mains should know, and how should you practice them?

I'm taking this idea from these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IACW5mltqY - Marth Trials
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb_B_2TEHBA - Falco Trials

I didn't watch either of those videos, but this is my daily routine:

1. movement 10 mins (desyncs as well)

• wavedashing
• ledgedashing
• wavelands
• shield drops
• edgecancel nana rockets
• nana rockets
• nanapults
• ftilt guard desyncs
• dash dance desyncs
• etc. (whatever else I feel like doing)

2. cgs 10 mins

• dthrow sh dair
• dthrow fullhop dair
• dthrow reverse dair
• dthrow fair
• dthrow nair
• dthrow dsmash

3. wobbling 10-15 mins

• blizzard setup
• iceblock setup
• spotdodge/roll
• jab cancel
• jc grab
• finishers (raw dsmash, dthrow dsmash, dthrow usmash, fthrow fsmash, etc.)

4. movement (part 2) 5-10 mins
5. handoffs 10-15 mins

 

[MS DOS]

I was just about to ask about this kinda. What is the point of the hand-off and down throw down air? Why not just wobble to down smash?

It depends on the character, from what I've found. For example, to regrab Ganon, you have to grab a while after the throw, but with Fox the timing is much faster. This is all from what I've found, though, there's probably much more accurate data out there. It's mostly just repetition and muscle memory, for me.
EDIT: I totally misread your reply lmao. I thought it was about the timing, my bad
For me personally, wobbling is super hard. I usually flub the wobble, and would just get more out of a standard cg.
Down-throw d-air has a lot of uses, like being being able to regrab at low percents, unlike mashing out of a wobble.

 

[Samwisely]

Derf, that's almost exactly what the videos layout. A training routine is perfect.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I was just about to ask about this kinda. What is the point of the hand-off and down throw down air? Why not just wobble to down smash?

basically, you can't always initiate a wobble. If nana isn't correctly positioned, it's usually much safer to start a CG.
Setups for CGs are also not complicated or technical at all, since you can preform them off of most grabs.
Wobbling can also be very difficult to preform in real play, which is why many players opt for CGs on characters they apply to.

Also, although rare these days outside of Michigan, wobbling is also sometimes banned in tournament.

Handoffs in wobbling legal settings are mostly just for style. Unless it's fly, who can't wobble anyway, so he get's a lot more percent off a handoff.

But it's still pretty necessary for any IC to learn both these things and I always advise newer IC players to learn them before even considering learning to wobble.

 

[gijn]

https://gfycat.com/BouncyUnfortunateGuillemot

^ whats situations would this be useful for IC boffins? it's a pivot jab desynch

 

[Smog]

basically, you can't always initiate a wobble. If nana isn't correctly positioned, it's usually much safer to start a CG.
Setups for CGs are also not complicated or technical at all, since you can preform them off of most grabs.
Wobbling can also be very difficult to preform in real play, which is why many players opt for CGs on characters they apply to.

Also, although rare these days outside of Michigan, wobbling is also sometimes banned in tournament.

Handoffs in wobbling legal settings are mostly just for style. Unless it's fly, who can't wobble anyway, so he get's a lot more percent off a handoff.

But it's still pretty necessary for any IC to learn both these things and I always advise newer IC players to learn them before even considering learning to wobble.

Oh. Is there a video/thread that shows the percents and how to do all the chain grabs?

 

[DerfMidWest]

https://gfycat.com/BouncyUnfortunateGuillemot

^ whats situations would this be useful for IC boffins? it's a pivot jab desynch

I use these on occasion. Generally, I prefer ftilt guard because it's a little faster, but this is also viable as a quick desync when retreating.

Oh. Is there a video/thread that shows the percents and how to do all the chain grabs?

I don't actually know, I learned all the ICs CGs from VaNz in person a few years ago and from reading about them.
The reason ICs CGs are so powerful is because most of them are not percent based and will work on the majority of the cast (at least the ones you'll see in tournament).

I recommend reading Fly's guide, I'm pretty sure he covers most of them in there, since they are pretty fundamental IC stuff.

 

[dizzkidboogie]

Oh. Is there a video/thread that shows the percents and how to do all the chain grabs?

Here's an old video that shows some of the basic chain grabs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPTFpBWZbIA

 

[DerfMidWest]

LOL I remember that video.

for the record though, you can actually dthrow fair cg more characters that just spacies/falcon btw. It's just really difficult if they DI and it's not as good as your other cgs.
I learned to do it on peach for awhile since normal CGs don't work, but it's totally escapable and pretty hard to do in general.
But basically you just time the grab for while they are still in the air rather than when they hit the ground. I'm not sure how big the frame window is, but it's pretty tight.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Super random, but I was brainstorming ways of punishing Samus' ftilt as Popo and something that ended up appearing bizarrely decent upon testing is to short hop/full jump and, at around the height of a short hop's peak, air-dodge ~45 degrees below horizontal at her at roughly the time she starts her ftilt (up to 2 frames after she initiates ftilt can work). I got that Popo can often act around 9-10 frames before Samus can, which is enough time to grab or turn-around dsmash. Ftilt is also an okay option at higher percentages.

This does need to be a pretty precise read to work, but it could be okay if you're in your shield against her outside of her jab range, or just near ftilt's max range, both of which are circumstances in which Samus likes to bat you away with ftilt in a fashion that you can conceivably make a precise read on.

edit: you might be able to get away with doing the air-dodge even 3 frames after the start of Samus' ftilt since the hitboxes active on frame 6 of the move don't reach very far.

 

[Absolome]

Hey I think I might have found something new, tell me if you guys have done this before

If you jump, land, and then jump again (but I don't think this works if you do the second jump frame perfectly, the ICs have to be SLIGHTLY out of sync... I think?), then shoot ice blocks, but before the 6 frames later when nana swings her hammer, you press in the opposite direction on the control stick. Nana will swing her hammer in the opposite direction of popo.

The ice blocks still go together in front of you, and nana still lands facing forwards, but the little hammer hitbox of the ice blocks covers you on both sides when you do it, and it's not very hard to do.

Maybe the most useless new tech ever? I can't find anything on google about it

 

[Absolome]

Pic of it in action (it's really hard to get a good picture since the animation is so little, but you can see that nana is turned around). I'm guessing the code spawns the ice blocks on popo's animation if they are together, both at once. So when you fick it back before nana does her animation, it doesn't shoot another ice block backwards, but it does read that you turned it around in the air and does nana's animation accordingly

 

[MudkipUniverse]

That sounds like cool tech to me

 

[Absolome]

It's cool, but I don't see a situation ever coming up where you're doing an ice block in their face after doing an empty hop and you really need to cover more space around you for protection. It seems KINDA plausible, but why would a good IC player be ice blocking in that situation, and why would a bad IC player somehow remember to do this while playing a match?

It's definitely useful, but I don't think anyone is going to use it because it's just so much setup and thought for such a ridiculously small benefit, in such a specific situation

new stuff to do during handwarmers though!