pockyD
Smash Legend
how do you gimp =\
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
how do you gimp =\
What do you mean? IC dittos are the best thing ever!
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
So it's agreed that SoPo is not a good character. Period. That's why I put him below Game and Watch. GaW is crappy, just not 'bottom of bottom' crappy.
Binx
Smash Master
dj asakura
Smash Ace
but like every other lower tier character, in the right hands, you can do some amazing things with SoPo
check my sig
"there are no low tier characters, only low tier players"
edit: haha wow, what was he thinking. also nice job on the pausing the throw off the wobble, lol
check my sig
"there are no low tier characters, only low tier players"
edit: haha wow, what was he thinking. also nice job on the pausing the throw off the wobble, lol
pockyD
Smash Legend
but there are indeed low tier characters =\
low tier is just a group of characters that aren't as good as the characters in the groups above them =\... don't read too much into what it means (it DOESN'T mean UNPLAYABLE AND SHOULD NEVER WIN)
low tier is just a group of characters that aren't as good as the characters in the groups above them =\... don't read too much into what it means (it DOESN'T mean UNPLAYABLE AND SHOULD NEVER WIN)
dj asakura
Smash Ace
haha, no i'm aware that there ARE indeed low tier, i'm not ignorant to that fact. it's just a "philosphy" (if you will).
That match is almost a year old. Posting it was more of a joke than "check out my leet ICs".
Lix: I was just continuing a thought of Zjiin's. I was also vaguely defending your post when he said "way to state the obvious."
But you know what? Now I ain't gonna no more. Mleehhhhh.
Edit:
More to the point, you CAN vaguely toe it against even good characters, even good players with good characters, with SoPo. You've got some moderately effective combos, and if you can't edgeguard well with just one climber then you aren't being creative enough. I'll just post what I know about playing SoPo, because I honestly think it's one of my strengths.
C'mon, just think of the combos! They practically build themselves for you.
Down-throw - dash attack - up-air/back-air.
Down-throw - up-smash - up-air.
(For fast fallers)
Up-throw - dash attack - grab/dash-attack. If dash attack, grab, or dash attack again...
Up-throw - up-smash - dash-attack/up-air
Floaty CG at low percent:
Down-throw - n-air - shieldgrab (most floaties will try to n-air you out of a normal grab after this so just go for the shield grab)
Floaty CG at mid percents using platforms:
D-throw, jump to platform and waveland, tech-chase d-throw.
Middleweights can be finished at higher percents by substituting d-smash for d-throw off the tech-chase. If they roll one way, odds are they'll DI the smash the way they were rolling. And that's probably WITH the smash, increasing it's capability as a finisher. You're still fast, you just need to be even more cautious than you used to be. If you get an opening, capitalize briefly then BACK OFF. And don't resign yourself to "I'm not getting KO's and I can't fight evenly" because if they are focused on gimping Nana, you will lose her early on in at least two of your stocks.
See? Look at all those combos.
As for openings, one IC needs to pretty much rely on the following approaches:
WD into grab - for shields
WD into smash - for beating attacks - use reverse d-smash, it has the fastest startup.
WD into up-tilt - for beating dodges. If you're confident they will dodge, then you can wait for it and get the grab.
WD jab is okay against characters without good CC's, but it's weaker since you don't have double hit stun. And it lacks range and can be shield grabbed, which is why I don't like it as much as I used to.
Between those three, you have a decent game of Rock-Paper-Scissors going.
Your dash dance is actually really good; just remember that the IC's are kind of bulbous and don't have a lot of range on the dash dance, so you've gotta be really careful. I prefer to err on the side of caution and wavedash away a lot with the DD for maximum evasion. But you can't always take advantage playing like that, so you just gotta learn to space. Sadly, my spacing is garbage compared to what it should be, so...
Don't over-use your dash-attack with SoPo. It's a good combo starter, it has good reach and speed and works great with your dash-dance, but that just makes opponents look for it more. It's also only out for two frames, making it a poor choice unless you KNOW it will hit. It's not safe against ANYBODY's shield at ALL, and it leaves you wide open. It's a risky move. But it gets you u-airs and b-airs, grabs against fast fallers, and it looks cool. So high risk = high reward.
Make friends with your up-smash. It's an underused move, IMO, and I think it's got a bit more potential than most people give it credit for. Try wavedashing in with it backwards; it has a deceptive backwards hitbox. It also makes you look vulnerable when you're not. It also crouches you slightly whilst charging, so give it a bit of charge and you can time it to trade with aerials and such. Plus, hitting with the back end charged up has a good deal of shield stun, and gives you less lag, so if you hit shields you can be a bit safer.
Platform canceled ice-blocks are deceptive! Use them well and you can get an opponent to shield an ice-block, not realizing you're following with it. Land a grab, or go for the up-tilt if you think they'll dodge.
Forward-tilt is cool. WD'ing into it is faster than f-smash and has more horizontal reach than d-smash. It can get you hits you wouldn't otherwise get. It has okay knockback and can set up edgeguards at higher percent.
And lastly, taunt often.
That's pretty much all I've got, off the top of my head.
But you know what? Now I ain't gonna no more. Mleehhhhh.
Edit:
More to the point, you CAN vaguely toe it against even good characters, even good players with good characters, with SoPo. You've got some moderately effective combos, and if you can't edgeguard well with just one climber then you aren't being creative enough. I'll just post what I know about playing SoPo, because I honestly think it's one of my strengths.
C'mon, just think of the combos! They practically build themselves for you.
Down-throw - dash attack - up-air/back-air.
Down-throw - up-smash - up-air.
(For fast fallers)
Up-throw - dash attack - grab/dash-attack. If dash attack, grab, or dash attack again...
Up-throw - up-smash - dash-attack/up-air
Floaty CG at low percent:
Down-throw - n-air - shieldgrab (most floaties will try to n-air you out of a normal grab after this so just go for the shield grab)
Floaty CG at mid percents using platforms:
D-throw, jump to platform and waveland, tech-chase d-throw.
Middleweights can be finished at higher percents by substituting d-smash for d-throw off the tech-chase. If they roll one way, odds are they'll DI the smash the way they were rolling. And that's probably WITH the smash, increasing it's capability as a finisher. You're still fast, you just need to be even more cautious than you used to be. If you get an opening, capitalize briefly then BACK OFF. And don't resign yourself to "I'm not getting KO's and I can't fight evenly" because if they are focused on gimping Nana, you will lose her early on in at least two of your stocks.
See? Look at all those combos.
As for openings, one IC needs to pretty much rely on the following approaches:
WD into grab - for shields
WD into smash - for beating attacks - use reverse d-smash, it has the fastest startup.
WD into up-tilt - for beating dodges. If you're confident they will dodge, then you can wait for it and get the grab.
WD jab is okay against characters without good CC's, but it's weaker since you don't have double hit stun. And it lacks range and can be shield grabbed, which is why I don't like it as much as I used to.
Between those three, you have a decent game of Rock-Paper-Scissors going.
Your dash dance is actually really good; just remember that the IC's are kind of bulbous and don't have a lot of range on the dash dance, so you've gotta be really careful. I prefer to err on the side of caution and wavedash away a lot with the DD for maximum evasion. But you can't always take advantage playing like that, so you just gotta learn to space. Sadly, my spacing is garbage compared to what it should be, so...
Don't over-use your dash-attack with SoPo. It's a good combo starter, it has good reach and speed and works great with your dash-dance, but that just makes opponents look for it more. It's also only out for two frames, making it a poor choice unless you KNOW it will hit. It's not safe against ANYBODY's shield at ALL, and it leaves you wide open. It's a risky move. But it gets you u-airs and b-airs, grabs against fast fallers, and it looks cool. So high risk = high reward.
Make friends with your up-smash. It's an underused move, IMO, and I think it's got a bit more potential than most people give it credit for. Try wavedashing in with it backwards; it has a deceptive backwards hitbox. It also makes you look vulnerable when you're not. It also crouches you slightly whilst charging, so give it a bit of charge and you can time it to trade with aerials and such. Plus, hitting with the back end charged up has a good deal of shield stun, and gives you less lag, so if you hit shields you can be a bit safer.
Platform canceled ice-blocks are deceptive! Use them well and you can get an opponent to shield an ice-block, not realizing you're following with it. Land a grab, or go for the up-tilt if you think they'll dodge.
Forward-tilt is cool. WD'ing into it is faster than f-smash and has more horizontal reach than d-smash. It can get you hits you wouldn't otherwise get. It has okay knockback and can set up edgeguards at higher percent.
And lastly, taunt often.
That's pretty much all I've got, off the top of my head.
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
Great post Wobbles.
I appreciate what you guys are saying. Just yesterday I played some people and I had long stretches where I did much better solo (lose Nana early then take off entire stocks with Popo). But it doesn't change the nature of the character. It's "tires don't exits" all over again; just reading it triggers some primeval reflex that makes me all argumentative.
I realize that it doesn't help anyone to rag on SoPo. Even if I'm right. :wink:
Anyway,
Couldn't you still WD jab shields? I find it works about the same with 1 IC as with 2 IC's.
I've never had any success wavesmashing to beat attacks, unless I just get lucky.
I would also like to add D-throw -> F-air against floaties at mid percentages, although that might only work against the one Jigglypuff I played yesterday.
I tried to cross up some auto-cancelled B-airs, but when it hits someone it no longer seems to auto cancel. I'm not sure if it's because of the hitstun. Does anyone else know for sure?
I appreciate what you guys are saying. Just yesterday I played some people and I had long stretches where I did much better solo (lose Nana early then take off entire stocks with Popo). But it doesn't change the nature of the character. It's "tires don't exits" all over again; just reading it triggers some primeval reflex that makes me all argumentative.
I realize that it doesn't help anyone to rag on SoPo. Even if I'm right. :wink:
Anyway,
Couldn't you still WD jab shields? I find it works about the same with 1 IC as with 2 IC's.
I've never had any success wavesmashing to beat attacks, unless I just get lucky.
I would also like to add D-throw -> F-air against floaties at mid percentages, although that might only work against the one Jigglypuff I played yesterday.
I tried to cross up some auto-cancelled B-airs, but when it hits someone it no longer seems to auto cancel. I'm not sure if it's because of the hitstun. Does anyone else know for sure?
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
Against mid-fallers, I tend to Dthrow > Nair > Regrab a few times with SoPo. They lead into each other so well. It also works relatively well on Fast-fallers. Also, on FF, after connecting with a dash attack, you can Utilt instead of regrabbing. I tend to Utilt more than grab.
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Also, yes, Wobbles has realized the awesomeness of the Ftilt. Of course, I really only spam it with dual climbers because Tipper desynchs are how I start a good deal of my desynch combos.
I've started to work on jab Tipper desynching and I see TONS of possibilities for it. TONS. Imagine a Jab tipper desynch -> Nana blizzard -> quickly Popo rejab -> The blizzard actually connects -> Desynch combo ensues. It sounds like it would be nasty if you could do it quickly enough. I love tipper desynching.
Also, I've been messing around with desynchs out of sheild. Aside from the usual Up B out of sheild desynchs(which is the "only known way to desynch out of sheild"), you guys should just sheild-grab and desynch from that. It's not as risky as UpB OoS desynch and I think it's quicker.
Also, I've been able to perform a strange type of desynch in the I do the PopoHard-sheild and have Nana Lightsheild. If you're hit during this, immediately drop the sheild. I think that light shields have more shield stun than hard sheilds so Nana is still suffering sheild stun while Popo drops his sheild. During that period, you can make Popo do anything, which is a nice change since most desynchs allow Nana to act first. I can't think of many uses for this though.
------
*answer* Desynchs can last as long as you want or need them to last. I once 0-deathed a Captain Falcon off of one desynch.
-------
Also, yes, Wobbles has realized the awesomeness of the Ftilt. Of course, I really only spam it with dual climbers because Tipper desynchs are how I start a good deal of my desynch combos.
I've started to work on jab Tipper desynching and I see TONS of possibilities for it. TONS. Imagine a Jab tipper desynch -> Nana blizzard -> quickly Popo rejab -> The blizzard actually connects -> Desynch combo ensues. It sounds like it would be nasty if you could do it quickly enough. I love tipper desynching.
Also, I've been messing around with desynchs out of sheild. Aside from the usual Up B out of sheild desynchs(which is the "only known way to desynch out of sheild"), you guys should just sheild-grab and desynch from that. It's not as risky as UpB OoS desynch and I think it's quicker.
Also, I've been able to perform a strange type of desynch in the I do the PopoHard-sheild and have Nana Lightsheild. If you're hit during this, immediately drop the sheild. I think that light shields have more shield stun than hard sheilds so Nana is still suffering sheild stun while Popo drops his sheild. During that period, you can make Popo do anything, which is a nice change since most desynchs allow Nana to act first. I can't think of many uses for this though.
------
*answer* Desynchs can last as long as you want or need them to last. I once 0-deathed a Captain Falcon off of one desynch.
abit_rusty
Smash Lord
Ok ...newb question I suppose but what acronym does SoPo stand for? I do second ice climbers once in a while and I lurk on these here boards...yarr. Oh and good tips as always wobbles.
SoPo = solo Popo?
abit_rusty
Smash Lord
oh...lol...*slaps head*
Zjiin
Smash Master
I don't think people are too concerned with offending Canadians. America Jr has always been a punchline to many jokes.
dj asakura
Smash Ace
wow, where did all these people come from
Takumaru
Smash Lord
From behind you!
To add to wobbles comment about Usmash, it has a freakishly huge arc that covers not only above you but also behind and in front. The back part of the Usmash is a lot wider and has more range than the front part so I find myself reversing it sometimes. It's recently become one of my favorite moves and I think I may actualy be over using it... A funny little trick with it is to desynch the ICs and chain Usmash against fast fallers and following their DI after one of them.
In short: U smash > all
Delphiki
Smash Champion
I think that the U-Smash actually hits LOWER on the back end too. Not sure.
F-tilt ***** with one or two climbers. One thing I like to do against aggressive enemies is dash away and pivot f-tilt. It will usually phaze them long enough to grab. Mental lag is just as useful as technical lag, if not more.
Speedsk8er, there are four ways that I can think of off the top of my head to desynch out of a shield. ^_^ Five if you count grab.
Lixivium - one of the reasons Solo jab > grab is worse is because you lose several frames' advantage. Nana usually gives extra hitlag that Popo doesn't get, thereby slowing down the opponent. Having Nana gives you a speed advantage in physical combat (not movement or projectiles).
F-tilt ***** with one or two climbers. One thing I like to do against aggressive enemies is dash away and pivot f-tilt. It will usually phaze them long enough to grab. Mental lag is just as useful as technical lag, if not more.
Speedsk8er, there are four ways that I can think of off the top of my head to desynch out of a shield. ^_^ Five if you count grab.
Lixivium - one of the reasons Solo jab > grab is worse is because you lose several frames' advantage. Nana usually gives extra hitlag that Popo doesn't get, thereby slowing down the opponent. Having Nana gives you a speed advantage in physical combat (not movement or projectiles).
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
Well, hurry up and post your desynch guide so we'll all know ways to OoS desynch. ^_^
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
*dubble poast*
You know what we need? More Ice Climber combo videos. I'm tired or seeing CFs, Marths, Sheiks, and space animals in the combo vid forums.
You know what we need? More Ice Climber combo videos. I'm tired or seeing CFs, Marths, Sheiks, and space animals in the combo vid forums.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lol want me to make one?
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
Do eet! As long as it's a good watch.
Vts
Smash Champion
Lets see some random combos w/o so much grabbing. :D
I'd been planning on making one for a while... maybe we could release 'em fairly close together and give Video Discussion TWO IC vids to go wild over :D
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
I wanna see combos like at the end of Infinite possibilities, as sexy and impractical as they are.
DESYNCH COMBOS FTW!
DESYNCH COMBOS FTW!
Takumaru
Smash Lord
Random desynch combos? Heck I could just use a guide to practical desynching. Oh and how to gain height on the >b with a solo climber, I can't seem to get any no amtter how fast I mash the button.
Binx
Smash Master
Yeah I have some trouble with this also, I can get pretty high but its difficult.
Lets see some combo vids, I agree I would like to see some more desynch combos, or new chain throws, downthrow nana spike dsmash is a cool one but gets boring, also dthrow dair of course is boring, its like watching falco shine combo's who cares anymore.
PB&J
Smash Hero
i putting up a combo video soon..and nana will be beasting in it
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
Nana's so broken.
Binx
Smash Master
Darnit, My combo video was gonna have a Nana section too *tear*
Although my friend never brings his equipment and I dont have anything to record with so...
Although my friend never brings his equipment and I dont have anything to record with so...
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Is it just me, or is there something about wireless controllers that makes desynching a lot easier? It feels like there is a tiny amount of lag, but it makes everything forgiveable by a few frames. Maybe it's just me...
Oh, and that reminds me of something. Using the pivot/jc dash desynch found by Wobbles (fastest desynch ever), just wavedash with Nana towards your opponent. I don't know if this was mentioned in that thread or not, but I've been finding it pretty useful. Basically, you pivot/wavedash towards them with Nana, she'll intercept whatever they were about to do, and you can wavedash forward to punish them (in their hitlag, grab, or whatever). Thoughts?
Oh, and that reminds me of something. Using the pivot/jc dash desynch found by Wobbles (fastest desynch ever), just wavedash with Nana towards your opponent. I don't know if this was mentioned in that thread or not, but I've been finding it pretty useful. Basically, you pivot/wavedash towards them with Nana, she'll intercept whatever they were about to do, and you can wavedash forward to punish them (in their hitlag, grab, or whatever). Thoughts?
Binx
Smash Master
I dont particularly like throwing my nana into doom. Also I dont see how that would stop anyone from jumping over her or running through her or anything.
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
The shorthop variation is safer for Nana, albeit less effective combo-wise.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
It can be done extremely quickly. If it comes unexpectedly, they can't react to it at all, and if they process a button-press in their head, they'll likely through with it, even if they see Nana sliding towards them. And, I wouldn't necessarily call it sending Nana to her doom, because you are standing right behind her waiting to punish them in their lag.
Binx
Smash Master
So is this a pivot, if so what move are you pivoting? is it a pivot into a standing animation? I could see this confusing many people into trying to do whatever they were going to do a little to early, but I think you would have to know more or less what they planned right?
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Who else thinks some pivot desynchs need different names?
Pivot Desynch:
- Pivot and hold forward+A: Nana will dash attack and Popo will charge a smash.
- Pivot and let go of the control stick. Popo will enter the sliding end-running animation. Nana will be sliding back towards her box. You can then do any 'B' move with just Nana while Popo is in this animation.
- Pivot and hold c-stick in any direction: Popo will smash.
- Whatever Phen does: Pivot and Ice Block... how does this work again?
- The Fastest Desynch ever: Pivot. Popo will pivot, Nana will dash backwards. Jump while pivoting. Popo won't do anything because he's pivoting, Nana will jump-cancel her dash. As Popo enters the end-running animation, you can have Nana do any 'B' move. It's like the second one, but faster because you don't actually have to wait for Nana at all.
Basically, you do Wobbles' desynch, but instead of just jumping, wavedash with Nana. Popo will be completely free to do anything, Nana will be sliding a bit in front of you.
It probably does recquire a little guessing, but it can be done right out of dashdancing or wavedancing and can't really be punished (Nana will live as long as your percentage isn't dark gray, and Popo has no lag so he's relatively safe).
If you succeed at tricking them into attacking, there are two things that may be easier than punishing hitlag. One is having Nana wavejab, but this may not be possible depending on when in the wavedash the jab can come out. Two, wavedash forward with Popo immediately after and waveshield -> shield grab.
Pivot Desynch:
- Pivot and hold forward+A: Nana will dash attack and Popo will charge a smash.
- Pivot and let go of the control stick. Popo will enter the sliding end-running animation. Nana will be sliding back towards her box. You can then do any 'B' move with just Nana while Popo is in this animation.
- Pivot and hold c-stick in any direction: Popo will smash.
- Whatever Phen does: Pivot and Ice Block... how does this work again?
- The Fastest Desynch ever: Pivot. Popo will pivot, Nana will dash backwards. Jump while pivoting. Popo won't do anything because he's pivoting, Nana will jump-cancel her dash. As Popo enters the end-running animation, you can have Nana do any 'B' move. It's like the second one, but faster because you don't actually have to wait for Nana at all.
Basically, you do Wobbles' desynch, but instead of just jumping, wavedash with Nana. Popo will be completely free to do anything, Nana will be sliding a bit in front of you.
It probably does recquire a little guessing, but it can be done right out of dashdancing or wavedancing and can't really be punished (Nana will live as long as your percentage isn't dark gray, and Popo has no lag so he's relatively safe).
If you succeed at tricking them into attacking, there are two things that may be easier than punishing hitlag. One is having Nana wavejab, but this may not be possible depending on when in the wavedash the jab can come out. Two, wavedash forward with Popo immediately after and waveshield -> shield grab.
Binx
Smash Master
When you say pivot with popo do you mean dash dance once, because it isn't a pivot if you arent doing an action in the 1 frame stand between dash dancing, your just talking about running and turning around and because nana is confused by this she will do something while popo is sliding from the run correct?
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
No, I meant from when he stops running. Pivot, then stop running so that when you input Ice Block/Blizzard for Nana he won't Squall. I think crouching works too, but I'm not sure about it. It doesn't matter for the pivot/wavedash though because it happens before he can do anything.