Social General Ice Climber Chat

[choknater]

ok i took a close look at your sets and noticed what went wrong. you seemed to have a good game plan but it was the very small, single mistakes that got u punished.

every time u got shined i played it back and asked 'why did he get shined?

- sometimes you were desynced and didnt make it a priority to sync yourself
- at times u moved toward fox while he was running around and put yourself in a bat spot. in this way you kinda gave him a free hit. like in your very last death against milkman. you wavedashed toward him and gave him a free shine.
- sometimes this happened because you attacked overzealously, or just by accident, or just out of a poor habit
- he punished a usmash out of shield with a shine. i thought the usmash was a pretty good decision, but it might've been even safer to just wavedash into a better position... or uair out of shield

overall i think you should force fox to come to you more, and stay synced. the reason you were doing so well with popo is because you made yourself very hard to hit. you wavedashed a lot for spacing and baiting and got a ton of good reads with solo popo. you have to think the same way with both ic's. even if you are more limited in mobility, you still have double hitboxes to defend yourself. always pay attention to where he is and his possible jump arcs.

so i guess its not really about 'countering his attack patterns.' cuz fox is so fast and he can always change his patterns. it's more about positioning yourself in the neutral game better, to reduce his options of approach.

i recommend synced sh fair in place. it's a pretty good option you can add to your defense. doing a desync blizzard wall isn't a bad idea, i saw you try it once. it's not the best vs fox but you can kinda do it to see how he responds to it, and give yourself breathing room.

fox's mindset is 'dont get grabbed at all costs' so yours should be 'dont get shined at all costs'

the reason you did much better vs falco is because your style of pressuring a spacie suited you well for the matchup. but fox is way more mobile and we have to try to intercept his attacks. since his movement is superior, it is easier for him to bait us than it is for us to bait him... with all the hits you get as solo popo, i can foresee that u will be able to destroy foxes if you keep trying to play in that difficult-to-hit way

keep it up man u got this

 

[Nintendude]

That's all very good input - thanks! I will rewatch the sets with all of that in mind.

 

[choknater]

no problem man, love your ic's. we play similarly and also use the same color.

 

[KayB]

I'm trying out the IC's because they're such an interesting set of characters.

Anyway, I watched the Double Vision Desynch guide video and saw this: http://youtu.be/nU3NDDwt4M4?t=4m20s
At first I thought it was a ledge desynch, but Popo didn't climb up from the ledge, which I thought was necessary for the desynch. How do you do this?

Also I'm having trouble with nanapults.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Start charging d-smash, wd off the stage, and when Popo grabs the ledge you will lose control of Nana. Not sure how practical this is but that's how he did it.

 

[KayB]

Start charging d-smash, wd off the stage, and when Popo grabs the ledge you will lose control of Nana. Not sure how practical this is but that's how he did it.

Oh, so he did a spotdodge desynch. I missed that. Thanks.

Also, it looks like you guys are having avatar problems. Apparently, you can get rid of that extra space in your avatars simply by reuploading your pictures.

 

[choknater]

i am going to money match hungrybox at norcal regionals. wish me luck

 

[KayB]

I have a feeling that'll either go really well or horribly.

 

[Binx]

i've had a super easy time with jigglypuff since youmentioned your stategy for camping puff, I just kinda do stuff til she jumps of a slightly wrong angle and chip damage with uair or upsmash its really nice that I dont have to get mad facing jiggs players anymore, I need something like this for my peach game haha. And ganon... and samus.

 

[choknater]

i know hbox is very good against ic's. the only puff that good. he beat fly and wobbles last time they played... i want to try my luck!

 

[Nintendude]

Hbox was in my Apex pool and I did pretty well in the neutral game except I got nair rested once per game. Make sure you watch out for that!

 

[choknater]

thanks for the tip!

 

[Tomber]

Hey, I'm going to EVO. Should be fun.

 

[choknater]

sweet, i hope to meet you there.

 

[Binx]

Anyone have any good tech skill routines you do to get in shape? I still feel like I flub stuff I shouldnt and don't know if Im ever going to be consistent enough to play this game at a high level.

 

[choknater]

what kind of stuff are you flubbing

when i play ic's, i just try to wavedash and waveland a lot to keep warm. those are the most important things for me not to mess up. also wavedashing out of shield after my shield gets hit, timing it properly so that i don't roll

wavedashing 100% of the time can still be a challenge for me, but it really shouldn't be that way

 

[Binx]

I miss most of my auto canceled uairs, I occasionally miss l cancels, I miss some wavelands. I bobak way too often. And I kinda suck at handoffs but thats prolly because I dont practice them enough and never have, its something I definitely need to learn. Umm I could be more crisp on dash dance grabs, I think a lot of my technical mistakes just come from not trusting myself and hesitating.

 

[choknater]

believe in yourself and practice a lot

 

[softmovingdeer]

So proud of both Fly and Wobbles at KoC2. I was cheering so hard at my computer, you both are wonderful individuals.
That ditto match was so hype...

 

[Nintendude]

Fly vs. Wobbles was the best set of the tournament.

 

[Smasher89]

Watched the stream. Was it just me or did wobbles play strange until he got his set against mango (set against fly was more understandable then the ones before), or was that just me when watching?

 

[choknater]

wobbles vs fly was incredible lol. i feel like i was one of the only people watching who actually understood what was going on.

LOTS of innovation shown during this tournament.

wobbles, you are SO GOOD. you showed that ic's can really do well with gutsy, aggressive plays to establish pressure. i'm going to go back and watch your matches several times and take notes!

congrats on 2nd man

and fly congrats on 5th!

great set against each other. so exciting

 

[Engo]

I think I know what you mean. He definitely upped the ante when it got to that set.

Also lol @ westballz unplugging and leaving during the last wobble.

 

[Nintendude]

Westballz must hate ICs with a passion.

 

[choknater]

man wobbles staying true to his namesake

he definitely got a ton of infinites that i could've never set up in that situation

i want to practice it better now

 

[Fly_Amanita]

To-do list:

1) Kill off an old personal demon; it's something I've been aware forever and that I mostly took care of quite a while ago, but I've recently noticed a new trigger for it. It's not something that comes up a lot, but it's important enough to be worth addressing and I think I can get rid of it for good.

2) Use a different cue for starting a wobble; my current reliable wobble set-ups are a little time-consuming and convoluted, and hence tend not to work terribly well on good opponents. My success rate for starting a wobble out of the blue off of a random grab is pretty bad, which I think is attributable to using a few different timings over the years, which probably screwed with my muscle memory; I'm considering using a visual cue instead of a specific awkward rhythm that's difficult to perform correctly on reaction, which is what I've generally been going with; visual cues have been kind to me in the past, so I think I ought to be able to find something that should work here.

3) Invent some new technologies and re-purpose some old ones to either give me an edge in previously even-ish situations or at least bring me up a bit in bad ones; I currently have a few ideas, but I need to develop them more thoroughly and also craft a few more things.


While not thrilled with my play at KoC2, I remain confident.

 

[john!]

Also lol @ westballz unplugging and leaving during the last wobble.

OMFG lol!

this made my day. not even joking

 

[choknater]

haha i put in my google calendar "Study Wobbles"

and now i am

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Westballz must hate ICs with a passion.

Esp. when he sais gg and extends his hand, only for wobbles to ignore him and keep wobbling. Lol that was some bm ****, but for some reason I approve.

Fly, why didn't you counterpick FD? Your heavy desync style in the ditto would work best on that stage. I know i'd ban the **** out of that stage if we ever play again. The ass beating I received at your hands has def. had me practice desync blizzard spamming w.e i play dittos.

 

[john!]

^ i would've done the same thing... for all we know the "handshake" could have just been westballz's attempt to get wobbles to stop wobbling

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hey guys, I don't really go on Smash Boards anymore, but I've got a major next month and I'm planning on busting out my ICs again (as well as Peach if I'm not feeling very consistent, and Falco for dealing with the Peach match-up). I just want to get some discussion going that'll be relevant to me. Everyone in my area pretty much sucks, so I have to theory-craft a lot of my playstyle, just double-checking that this stuff is reliable against competent players basically...

My style at the moment is very based in shield; my bread-and-butter neutral is wavedashing back-and-forth into and out of shield, with the occasional SH bair, SH waveland, dash-dance or desync thrown in - is it safe to rely heavily on this in games, or do I need to be more aggressive? Whenever I see Fly and Wobbles, they seem to throw out a lot of wavedash smashes, SH fairs, etc... Pretty high risk/high reward ****, is that just a style thing or is it a necessity brought on by the limitations of the aforementioned defensive, shield-based play?

I create a lot of my openings through wavedash away > pivot ftilt desync > sh ice block (which I then chase and trap with)/charge fsmash (vs. falco)/sh dair (a cool thing I've been trying recently, it's fast and combos into grab if they try and get in my face) or a dash grab from Nana (which sets up combos if it hits, and works as a bait if it misses). I've been trying to do similar stuff with SH > landing desync recently as well, which is something I never see the top ICs do, but it seems really fast and versatile? Outside of that it's just basic SH bair set-ups, wavedash dsmash, etc... etc... etc... Anyway, are these types of desync setups reliable?

 

[choknater]

shielding isn't bad, but when you play good players, it is very rare that you will ever get a shield grab. good players will respect the ic's immediate space and never allow themselves to be in a position to be grabbed, let alone get shield grabbed. it is very rare now for people to approach ic's head on, unless you are marth or peach or something who can avoid getting shield grabbed more easily.

is that just a style thing or is it a necessity brought on by the limitations of the aforementioned defensive, shield-based play?

yes, pretty much!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh I'm aware of how rare it is to get a shield-grab, I sit in my shield a lot because ICs are a big, volatile target. It's definitely defensive rather than offensive.

Watching Rob in his friendlies with Taj, he played a lot closer to how I usually play. Not sure if that was because Mewtwo or because friendlies, though.

 

[Wobbles]

1) I didn't see a handshake at all. I was focused on winning the match and not screwing up the infinite since I'd messed it up so many times before; I didn't even have him up to 100% by the time he'd quit out, which seemed ridiculous to me since I've dropped plenty of games from there and let people out of the infinite before as well.
2) I pretty much try and zero in completely on my opponent as I play sets and adapt to their movement, timings, patterns, etc. So if I changed how I play against Mango, that's because he's a very different player from everybody else, I guess.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Fly, why didn't you counterpick FD? Your heavy desync style in the ditto would work best on that stage. I know i'd ban the **** out of that stage if we ever play again. The *** beating I received at your hands has def. had me practice desync blizzard spamming w.e i play dittos.

There are a couple reasons. One is that I'm just as comfortable on the neutral layout of PS as I am on any other stage, and I don't need to worry about getting screwed over by transformations very much in the ditto. Another one is that Wobbles is a lot better at setting up infinites than I am, so his ability to kill me is less dependent on blastzones than my ability to kill him is; hence, the lower ceiling helps me more than it helps him.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think since Wobbles is better at setting up infinites, FD makes sense as a counterpick because conventional juggles and such are exaggerated there due to the lack of stage obstacles (getting down from juggles is difficult). As a result of this, conventional punishment gets more weight to its part of the match, which benefits you at worst as much as it benefits him (since his focus is the infinite). Conversely, on PS, not only do the various transformations present unique and situational opportunities for him to infinite you (that he's almost certainly more versed with than you are), but conventional punishment almost gets nerfed because of how stage obstacles interact with their non-grab punishment game.

My two cents.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't think there is a huge difference between ICs' ability to vertically juggle other ICs on FD and their ability to do so on PS (at least the neutral transformation); getting down is a little harder on FD, but ICs' fair being large coupled with some other things (mainly good DI on the opponent's part) makes it still more difficult than it might initially seem to punish another ICs' landing. I'd also rather separate the ICs and kill Nana than go for extended vertical juggles; vertical juggles might become more relevant when the enemy is down to Sopo, but then the opponent's ability to infinite isn't relevant in that situation. I also think ICs' weight class/gravity/etc aren't going to lend themselves to weird wobbling set-ups outside of tech-chases on platforms on the various PS transformations, but that's just speculation. This discussion is kind of odd since it's about what would have been in my best interest then rather than what will be in my best interest in the future, and I intend on being proficient at setting up the infinite in the future so that I won't need to worry about this disparity in the first place.

 

[KirbyKaze]

There's a lot of tech traps on PS that simply do not exist on other levels. The fact that he can hit you onto platforms at weird times and WL grab wobble (on occasion before you can respond) is a big disadvantage. You should also consider the role the walls play in limiting where you can go and how they interact with conventional punishment versus how the wall interacts with wobbling. Finally, ICs can defend themselves reasonably coming down. But I feel they're better at avoiding being grabbed post-juggle than they are at dodging further hammer moves. Moreover, the transformations and platforms in neutral provide places to go to avoid things or screw with the opposing ICs' timings if they're trying something somewhat elaborate. I feel these things add up. Moreover, I feel Nana not having platforms on FD makes her easier to kill in some respects because she doesn't use them when crossing the stage to return to Popo, opening her up to be hit by simpler 2-step KO setups from more positions. That said, the enemy Popo doesn't have obstacles either so this may just be optimistic speculation.

At any rate, I agree that you just learning the infinite with more proficiency to avoid this issue is the best solution. Infinite combos win matches. And stuff.

 

[Tomber]

Just watched some of Wobbles' matches from KoC2. Some good stuff. I like the way you use nair to interrupt approaches and jumps, as well as your anti-OoS game. I think I'll start to focus more on how and when my opponents leave their shields. However, I still think you're hesitating a little too much with your wobbles. As I see it, you missed quite a few easy KOs by not getting your infinite going fast enough. You also messed up a few set ups by accidentally doing a throw once you got the grab. This could be due to nerves or shaky hands, though. Dunno. I think you could practice your wobbling set ups a bit more, anyway. That way you can get a wobble out of any grab when both climbers are together, which is big when you get so many grabs as you do.

 

[Construct]

What are some of your favorite setups and lead-ins to wobbling? Wobbles seemed to make them materialize at will out of grabs, and, well, I can't.