Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Tomber]

If you're planing to become the best player in your state then don't go Mario. You might feel that you're having more succes with him now, but that's most likely just because your opponents still don't know how to handle such a rarely used character. In the long run I think it will pay off if you stick to ICs or one of your high tier secondaries because at some point your fellow players will learn how to play against your low tier character.

I used to be the best player in Denmark 1-2 years ago and won almost every melee tournament I attended (I think I placed 2nd once). At that time, none of my opponents knew how to play against ICs and I had no problems winner because of that. I stopped playing for like half a year and dropped from 1st to 7th place on our power ranking because of inactivity.
I started playing again 5-6 months ago and have so far placed 3rd, 2nd (nearly 1st) and now 3rd again. Sure, the danish smashers have all gotten better which probably is one of the reasons why I'm not winning as much as I used to, but I think the main reason is that they (or, at least some of them) now know how to play against ICs. Suddenly, I'm the one who is having a hard time because I play a lower tiered character. I have to keep developing my play style and play much better than my opponent in order to win.

Well, I hope some of that made any sense, hah. If you want to prove that you're the better player then don't do it with a "bad" character. It will just give you troubles in the long run.

ICs vs. Fox is heavily in the ICs player's favour against an inexperienced Fox, but against an experienced Fox it is heavily in the Fox player's favour.

 

[Kyu Puff]

IC's vs. Fox is perfectly winnable even against an experienced Fox player.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fox is only a hard counter if you have an over-reliance on shield grabs.

Once I started approaching with wavedash ftilt/jab and doing small little desync tricks instead of just sitting back and Ice Block/Blizzard camping, I started doing waayyy better at the match-up.

 

[choknater]

the matchup is even because it is dynamic

they both have counters to different strategies

like, they can camp each other, but not forever

they have ways to approach each other, but none full-proof or totally safe

maybe sliiiiight fox because his movement speed is much better

 

[Binx]

ICs vs Fox isn't my problem, its ICs vs his puff.

I played vs his Fox a bunch just because we agreed that he wouldnt go puff and I wouldnt pick ICs. Next time I think I will just do Puff vs ICs anyways because my spacing isn't at the same level with my other characters.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think Puff vs. ICs is in ICs' favour, no joke.

 

[Tomber]

Well, I still think Fox vs. ICs is in the Fox player's favour if he knows what he is doing. Sure, it's winnable, but I think it's one of IC's hardest match-ups next to Peach, Samus and Marth.

Meh, I think my point got lost. Should've said G&W vs. Fox or something.
What I meant was that low tier vs. high tier might seem winnable for the low tier character in the beginning because the higher tiered character don't know how to play against the lower tiered character, but at some point the tide will change.

Don't use Mario against Fox. That's what I'm trying to say.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fox has the advantage, but it is only +1. even at highest current level.

 

[choknater]

puff vs ic's is very easy. 65-35 ic's imo. it took me a while to figure it out but i realized puff's limits based on her movement and her moves

her most dominant strategies is spacing bairs and fairs. ic's have a strong ground game so in order to hit the ic's, she would need aerials that are low to the ground, as any of her ground moves can get brutally punished by a grab.

however, the constant bairing if puff is trying to get in or even defend herself will make it very difficult for ic's to get in. so the first step is a very simple one: train yourself to not wd towards puff.

i thought about the speed of puff's horizontal aerial movement... it's good, but still not as fast as ic's ground movement. wd AWAY is better than wd towards, and also she cannot usually catch ROLL away unless she is pretty much right next to your shield before you roll. even then, she'd have to react immediately to the roll in order to punish you. this is my main strategy in the matchup because i roll away and desynch into nana's blizzard.

nana's blizzard will block the low to the ground bairs, so popo can basically do WHATEVER he wants. if puff jumps above the blizzard, it's a free uair or you can wd under her and go to the other side of the stage where you can desynch blizzard more.

if puff is caught by the blizzard, it's a free grab or smash. if you can tell she is DI-ing away from the blizzard, just keep zoning.

puff's main legit way to fight this is to jump quite high and try to get behind the ic's, or just time approaches so that they will both 1) avoid blizzard and 2) strike popo, which is doable but very hard for puff. basically, you create a wall that becomes extremely frustrating for her to beat and makes it so that she has to play in other ways that do NOT use bair/fair spacing, which are her strengths.

believe it or not puff's dair and uair are pretty good in this matchup. if puff manages to get ic's above her, they can't really challenge her uair.

sometimes, my opponent's puff starts to run away. if she can't figure out how to get past the wall, she runs away and this is actually better for us because we can regain center stage and poke with uairs. center stage vs puff is so strong because no matter where she is on the stage, we have the upper hand. if she is on the ground, we can reach any part of the stage with one wd. if she is above platforms, or jumping high on FD, she has to come down eventually and we can intercept her with uairs or some kind of smash from below

sometimes, the opponent's puff chooses a ground game. if she does this, we choose can go back into our normal non campy mode and just wd toward her and grab her. this is great, because we have conditioned her to stop spamming bairs, and frees up our strong option of wd towards.

another excellent strategy that i figured out is just RANDOM DAIR. this is technically our fastest aerial, and i try to use it like fox's nair in the matchup. it is really risky for fox because if he misspaces it, he will die. however, ic's wd is fast enough so that if we go for a random dair we probably won't miss, and this is seriously like almost 20% on her. if i get tired of blizzard walling and want to throw her off with an approach, this is my go-to move. the hitbox fills half of our body and if puff is not using bair, it will trade with most of her moves. if it doesn't trade, the dair's hit trajectory is really small so it keeps her close, which is so bad for her because she kinda has to get into this bairing momentum. her moves are kinda slow, so we can anticipate whatever she does after getting hit by dair

ever since figuring out this strategy i have never lost to a puff. (norcal's puffs are gk infinity, bluefoxxt, hyuga, and king. never played the likes of mango, darc, or hbox but i think i would fare quite well.)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

TOP LEVEL MU CHART:

|||||||||:ganonmelee:|
|-1|+0|+1|+1|+0|-2|+0|+1|+0|-1

HIGH LEVEL MU CHART:

|||||||||:ganonmelee:|
|-1|+0|+1|+1|-1|-3|-1|+0|-1|-1

All imo of course.

 

[choknater]

...does that say we are advantageous against peach?

also, i think doc wins. if he doesn't, we have to take major risks to win because we can't defend against him properly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oops, lemme change that, lol. Supposed to be -2 against Peach.

And Doc doesn't seem that amazing in theory against ICs, as far as I can see, what makes you think he has the advantage?

 

[choknater]

remember i am biased because i live in norcal, where both of the two best doc players live (HMW and Shroomed) so i have a lot of exp vs the char. mostly from when i lived in the same town as HMW, but also from my own doc vs ic's practice

basically doc's close range speed is very good vs ic's. there are certain anti-ground wd moves that make matchups hard for ic's.

peach's dsmash
ganon's fair
samus' missile, dsmash, and utilt
falco's laser
marth's dtilt

also moves with heavy shield stun are hard for ic's to fight against, because we cannot punish them out of shield if they are used against us properly

peach's dsmash
marth's tipper (if not tippered, his fsmash is free lol)
ganon's fair
falco's spaced fsmash
ROY's fsmash
LINK's fsmash

stuff like that

doc has many moves that fall under those categories. his jab and dsmash are fast, low lag, and good for fighting ic's ground game. we can't simply wd shield towards him because he has the moves to fight it. his late nair also has heavy shield stun, and nair itself has an enduring hitbox which gets stronger over time. we can't simply wd smash towards him because he can space it.

with other characters (marth ganon puff falcon) if we can't approach them, we need to find a way to defend against their approaches. this can't be done against doc, because he - in very similar fashion to peach - has a slow moving projectile that will force us to either avoid or shield. doc's air pill is used for approaches, and we also even have difficulty fighting his grounded pill because we can't really wd under it. maybe we can but the timing must be incredibly strict.

pills > ice blocks in the projectile battle, and pill also goes through blizzard.

it turns the matchup into a dynamic one where we don't have any shutdown strategies against doc. generally in my mind the matchup becomes "even" when this happens, like how i think with fox. however, i tie it to the peach and falco matchups where we fight the uphill battle if the opponent knows how to use the superior projectile to establish momentum.

if doc pills right, he won't let us camp, and he has fast enough moves to combat us when we are at close range. grabbing doc is not simple because wd shield toward him is not full proof. his grab options against us are just as devastating as ours against him (dthrow/uthrow to fair/whatever, or bthrow for separation)

so basically there is no "safe" or "advantageous" way to play the matchup that i can think of. i find the matchup similar to peach, but just barely not as hard because his defense is not as tight as hers. dynamic matchups are just frustrating to me haha.

i think... even if he doesn't really have the advantage... i can't conceptualize any way to approach the matchup well, so i'm usually in the dark against doc. he has a lot of strengths that are naturally good vs ic's, and he is such a solid character that opponents just have to outplay him. his main weaknesses are mediocre aerial movement, getting outranged, mediocre mobility, and his inability to combat shield pressure.

i'm not sure how ic's can exploit any of those. maybe force him to jump, and then somehow avoiding pills and getting in/under with something? idk.

i didn't say he's "amazing" vs ic's but i do think we are slightly disadvantaged. 55-45 at the very least.

 

[mers]

I just came in here to say that this combo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOu0klo3o8A#t=2m22s

is ****ing amazing.

 

[voorhese]

i second that.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm in a super blunt sort of mood, so I'll just say a few things on the recent topics without providing justification for them and can elaborate on my thoughts later if anybody is interested.

-I don't think it's particularly hard for Puff to deal with blizzard provided she just waits for it to end; none of the options Popo can throw out afterwards seem particularly good to me. I could easily be wrong about this.

-I don't believe ICs vs. Doc is any worse than even for us for reasons that I've likely stated before. I also think it's blatantly false to say that ICs can't camp Doc well, and in my experience, it's also not very hard to deal with camping on Doc's end.

-As far as match-ups in general go, I think ICs have very few ones that are actually significantly bad. Peach is probably the hardest, but she's still manageable. I'd probably put Falcon and maybe Fox next in line, but those also seem totally manageable and probably not /that/ far off from even. People sometimes cite Ganon, Samus, Marth, Luigi, and Zelda as tough; I'd wager that most ICs players' difficulties with Ganon and Samus stem from not having a good sense of just how risky certain things are. Sloppily approaching Samus by the edge or carelessly leaving the ground or rushing in on Ganon are easy ways of immediately losing Nana. It's often better to just not act on a risky potential opening and wait for a better one; accomplishing nothing is generally fine; it's not like the opponent is generally gaining much from you doing nothing, either. As for the others, I'd guess that difficulties with Luigi and Zelda stem from fundamental misunderstandings of how the match-ups work, whereas dealing with Marth typically just requires lots of situational knowledge and a good sense of when and how you can get around his wall and when and how he can get around yours, or something like that.

This poorly organized, mostly content-free post has been brought to you by a tired and sick mushroom.

 

[choknater]

my sentiments of blizzard vs puff stem from the fact that popo is essentially doing nothing and waiting for a response from puff while nana is shooting a projectile that will block her attacks. he can choose to even light shield if he wants. ice block is just my go-to option if puff is doing whatever because it has a hitbox in front of popo and it's a projectile

as for camping doc, i feel he is similar to marth and ganon in that if he plays safely enough he can slowly push us toward the ledge. the difference between him and those characters is that he has less range on his normals, but he has pills. so i think we have to bite eventually

 

[Fly_Amanita]

While Doc is really hard when he has you right at the edge, I don't think he's that great at pushing you there. He can't safely toss out a melee move safely the way Marth or Ganon can; most of his approaches options can be reliably punished. As for pills, as I'm sure you already know, you can shoot ice blocks through them, which is okay, although it usually doesn't end in much happening to either the Doc or the ICs player. If he's actively trying to pressure you with pills, just do a synced jump blizzard into a pill so that Popo takes the hit and Nana goes forward, much like the anti-laser trick; it's a really good way of cleanly retaliating against his pressure that also can often lead to something that will put Doc above you, which is exactly where you want him to be.

 

[choknater]

that jump blizzard thing sounds like a decent option

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Yeah, as an example, I did it a few times in the first round here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHNaqCzjue0

 

[choknater]

holy crap how did i not know about these matches

takin notes

 

[Tomber]

Great match. I find the Doc match-up pretty hard myself. I'll try the synced blizzard jump next time a face a Doc.

Dash back --> dash forward --> down-b --> shield/whatever

This will make Nana Blizzard while you can do whatever you want. It's pretty much the same concept as dash-->dash-->dash-->blizzard, but instead of moving closer to your opponent, you move away from him, just like roll-->blizzard, but faster and without moving as far away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL_qXCKxw84&feature=relmfu
I do this I lot in these matches (0:11 and 1:00). I still think it's pretty useful even through I might be doing it too often at times.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think one of Doc's best traits is quite honestly that nothing grab-wise works on him unless you get lucky with mid-stage handoffs, or get a legitimate handoff. D-throw > u-smash > uairs...? Not too hard for him to deal with. Proper jump management *****.

 

[Binx]

Any tips for Marths guys? I feel like I have the most experience in that match up out of any and I generally do okay in it, but sometimes it seems almost impossible and there might be some neat tricks I just don't know, maybe I dont iceblock and blizzard enough...

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can either try to learn the timings and patterns of his sword moves so you can slip in with a WD approach or something ballsy like SH fair > jab reset > **** or you can take the other extreme where you keep a blizzard going and play long-range spacing games with him like that. Make him have to use his clunky* approach game, and then capitalize. Ice blocks are good for making him respond and while you usually can't do anything, the intelligence reports (study what he does!) become very handy when you begin to plan your more direct counterattacks.




*Beware of spacing. Spacing with Marth can make a clunky approach game effective. Even if it seems clunky.

 

[Binx]

any critiques guys? Binx vs Juce then Binx vs Gage

 

[Binx]

I made some technical mistakes, and some bad decisions, but I felt like my overall spacing and reads were fairly good, you can see several times where I expected an attack to send him one way and I would start some desynched pressure in the direction as the attack knocked him a way I didn't expect. In general I don't really chain throw that often, I enjoy doing tech chases and such so my punishes aren't always as good as they should be, an upside to this however is that my Sopo is probably much better than if I focused on just my punishes and the times I land grabs while unsynched I get a lot better punishes than if I allowed my opponent time to wiggle out.

I feel pretty good about my play for the most part and will probably begin incorporating better punishes now that I feel like the rest of my game is getting to a level that it belongs. (I didn't want to beat people by relying on them missing L cancels for grabs and such lol). I notice myself doing a lot of the same stuff after I hit with dairs, that's the only really bad habit I felt like I could see, also I guess I do similar followups out of jabs, I should be a little more patient, there are sometimes where I go for unsafe approaches while my opponent is on a platform where I just missed a shorthop in the intensity of the match. Also I really suck at DIing Falcons throws lol.

 

[Smasher89]

Was gonna comment on the jabs, something I know alot of falcons react to with a buffer roll/jump to get away.
When DI'ing Falcons throws, I suggest you write down notes for every time(in the set) you got throwed and killed (probably by knee), both %, kind of throw, and what DI you did use, it´s great for noticing those bad patterns.

If you want, you can use it for the offense to, how you techchased or anything that got you kills at different %.

Will check the set again later, but saw something that needs more abuse at FD, somethjihgn extreemly oldschool, dashattacks for juggling. Falcon has like only one option out of it which is jump away, which he will try to space a landing attack with, which ofcourse can pe bunished since it´s so predictable. If not jumping just dashattack again or if predicting bad DI, wd smash.

 

[Binx]

I'm pretty sure that a dthrow is a knee 100% of the time if the Falcon doesn't mess up, I was trying to DI down and away and tech but I hit my DI on those correctly even if the knee connected, sometimes I just DIed the throw up and he missed, but that was because he was expecting me to DI away, so I dunno, I guess it kinda depends more on them than me.

 

[PEEF!]

Welp.....

yeah....

 

[Strong Badam]

where was that post that had the frame windows for the handoff?

 

[Binx]

Come on we have every good ic ever on these boards and none of you have any advice for me?

I know im not that good lol

 

[Smasher89]

Come on we have every good ic ever on these boards and none of you have any advice for me?

I know im not that good lol

Was gonna relook into them, link dont direct correcly anymore.

 

[Binx]

T.T oh well, guess they removed them, I'll have to see about finding a dl for it next time maybe they can send me the hard copy over skype or something.

Thanks for trying though smasher.

Yeah that's basically my specialty, just hitting with random **** and messing up people's DI, there are a lot of guaranteed kills and stuff I still don't go for though because I can't do them consistently enough to rely on them in tournament.

Things I need to improve on:

• I still make some general bad decisions, i go for attacks that aren't safe, or spacings that aren't safe unless my opponent messes up.
• In the same vain I occasionally will rush someone from a neutral position with risky moves.
• I miss some simple guaranteed kills due to technical errors, mostly charged smashes after grabs, I'm messing up the headbutt timing in them and throwing early with no smash or missed smashes.
• Occasionally but rarely I get really smash happy, I do it seldom enough that it's rarely punished and actually gets me a lot of kills, and I notice it well enough to shut it off whenever it starts, but it's something I probably shouldn't do anyways
• Some of my followups are just bad, I get solid hits with low lag moves like dairs nairs jabs and bairs at low percents and followup poorly with greedy grabs or poorly spaced dash attacks most often. I need to make an effort to slow my mind down for a second and make a real decision rather than just picking one of the two at random and hoping to get lucky.
• Edgeguards, I space poorly with a lot of edgeguards when my opponents recover low with double jumps, there are opportunities for me to go off the ledge for kills but I miss them, I guess it's safer to stay on stage but it should be something I am capable of more often to make me less predictable, an opponent who can do anything is much scarier to predict than one who doesn't even if it's rare.
• Desynch pressure, and clutch desynchs - Some characters like jigglypuff and Marth require some really fast dash dance, pivot or double jump desynchs to create openings and I am only about 50% consistent with them in high pressure situations.

Things I am confident in / good at

• Spacing in general, I feel like I am able to predict movement and attacks with enough accuracy that my attacks are placed where they should be a good percentage of the time.
• Recovery, I feel like I mix up my recovery, use them accurately, space them nearly perfect, and choose the correct recovery for the situation almost always, this is probably where I feel strongest and it gives me a lot of opportunities for extra damage. DI should be mentioned here as well and I think my DI is pretty good, actually most peoples DIs are really good in Oregon.
• Movement - while I have some areas to improve in I feel like I mix up dashing, walking, dashing into shield, wavedashes of various lengths, short hops, and wavelands of various lengths down pretty well.
• Tech chasing, I feel like my tech chase game with Ice Climbers is really good, I feel like I know the spacings and tech timings of most characters their options out of techs, my options after throws at various DIs and how to cover multiple options at once to avoid guesswork.

If anyone else has any other areas that you feel like my play is strong and I should abuse more, or areas where you feel my play is weak(especially specific situations) I would love to hear them so I can improve. I really want to take this game as seriously as I have time for and I hope enough other people do as well so we can really get good at this game.

I posted this in my regional thread as well, when I start posting more videos and such here it will likely be in this type of format so I can get more meaningful feedback, maybe I'm not even evaluating my strengths and weaknesses correctly.

@ Wobbles: Dunno how often you get a chance to read this thread and just aren't posting, but I want you to know that I am trying my hardest to catch up to you, to be as good as you are, I really enjoy reading your blog and my private competition with you helps to drive me to be the best Binx I can be. I really hope I get a chance to meet you at a big tourney one of these days, hopefully this summer with any luck.

<3 IC community.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Peach dsmashes me (or another example of splitting up the ICs) and nana and I get separated to different sides of the stage. Peach goes after Nana with a fc nair or fsmash etc.

HOW DO I GET HER BACK?

I have tried running in and smashing my opponent as they go for nana but that can be tough and alot of the time they expect it and space wd away->smash. Should I blizzard? Should I grab my opponent? Should I squall? Should I try to grab nana and twin squall?

Its tough to get her sync'd again

 

[choknater]

if peach separates the ic's you can't simply focus on saving nana. it's kinda unlikely, so what you should do instead is focus on getting yourself in a good position to fight.

if you do wanna save her though, i personally thing teleporting nana with your up-B is the best, you just have to make sure she's not in a tumble state (aka she didn't use her second jump yet)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If I could request any change for the ICs, it would be that Nana could still Up B while in tumble.

 

[choknater]

yeah. that would make such a gigantic difference.

 

[Smasher89]

In that situation if I get a good trade of it, is generally when I can pressure with a bit of flow, not just running in, but forcing peach to (re)act.at has a timelimit. Another thing is that peach wont have that spaced fair in that situation, meaning that what she does is beatable.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Hey guys. I'm gonna try to focus on smash again.

I kinda have a full plate since I'm also playing Touhou fighters more and also Acceleration of Suguri 2 is owning my life as well.

But I wanna get good at smash.

Also, I missed you guys.

So sup?