choknater
Smash Obsessed
i like that tactic a lot too, but peach can still defeat it by pulling out turnips, or even fairing your squall. suggest it to the next peach you play if you are beating her with that.
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Yeah, I'm always hesitant to use side-B more than just sporadically since a well-spaced fair will beat it and then put you in a terrible position. It's still nice to throw out here and there, though.
I´s nice too have some bit of pressure on her even though she is in that position, but generally platfrom iceblock is safer to use to deal with that kind of positioning.
Or even better then the thing chok suggested, learn the counter of the counter the opponent will think on first, just too keep being a few steps before and keep winning against a peach, better then giving away the matchup for free :/
Or even better then the thing chok suggested, learn the counter of the counter the opponent will think on first, just too keep being a few steps before and keep winning against a peach, better then giving away the matchup for free :/
N1c2k3
Smash Lord
Dang, why didn't I think of that?
HoChiMinhTrail
Smash Master
john!
Smash Hero
lol this thread only deserves like 1 trail post per month
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hahahahhaahhaha
i never hear from that dude but i approve of that post
i never hear from that dude but i approve of that post
choknater
Smash Obsessed
idk if he will post again but i'll give a 2 cents
nana blizzard
watch fly amanita vs m2k from genesis 2 crews
rapeeeeee
then again m2k doesn't know the matchup... haha
nana blizzard
watch fly amanita vs m2k from genesis 2 crews
rapeeeeee
then again m2k doesn't know the matchup... haha
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I play the match-up really differently than Trail and most other ICs, who actively look for openings and try to weave their way through Marth's defenses. That approach is perfectly fine and should work.
My philosophy is a little different. First, let's look at the basic tools both characters have.
Marth has a sword. It is long, generally comes out quickly, and with some exceptions, doesn't lag much. Marth is also a very mobile character, who, while not strictly quite as fast as ICs, does have more flexible movement.
ICs have hammers, ice blocks, and blizzards. Our hammers may be disjointed, but they're not as disjointed as Marth's sword. Since we are fast, though, we can still find openings in Marth's defenses if he's trying to wall us out. However, rather than trying to do that, let's look at the two other things I listed. Ice blocks are long range projectiles that can force an opponent to go over them, shield, or attack them. Marth has nothing like this. We also have blizzard, specifically Nana's one; it comes out pretty quickly, has range comparable to Marth's sword, and stays out a while. It can also be used incredibly flexibly, thanks to the myriad of possible Nanapult trajectories; also, while Nana has a blizzard out, Popo is free to do whatever.
Hence, as far as I'm concerned, it's Marth's job to get around our wall, not vice versa. Of course, Marth is capable of getting around it, but doing so typically requires committing to something a little risky. As ICs, we can punish such things quite severely if we anticipate them.
My philosophy is a little different. First, let's look at the basic tools both characters have.
Marth has a sword. It is long, generally comes out quickly, and with some exceptions, doesn't lag much. Marth is also a very mobile character, who, while not strictly quite as fast as ICs, does have more flexible movement.
ICs have hammers, ice blocks, and blizzards. Our hammers may be disjointed, but they're not as disjointed as Marth's sword. Since we are fast, though, we can still find openings in Marth's defenses if he's trying to wall us out. However, rather than trying to do that, let's look at the two other things I listed. Ice blocks are long range projectiles that can force an opponent to go over them, shield, or attack them. Marth has nothing like this. We also have blizzard, specifically Nana's one; it comes out pretty quickly, has range comparable to Marth's sword, and stays out a while. It can also be used incredibly flexibly, thanks to the myriad of possible Nanapult trajectories; also, while Nana has a blizzard out, Popo is free to do whatever.
Hence, as far as I'm concerned, it's Marth's job to get around our wall, not vice versa. Of course, Marth is capable of getting around it, but doing so typically requires committing to something a little risky. As ICs, we can punish such things quite severely if we anticipate them.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
mhm. this is the reason i have a lot of trouble with kfc. he thought about the wall a lot and found ways through it
however i've improved my defense since then, and my footsies/zoning haha. i wanna play a good marth again
however i've improved my defense since then, and my footsies/zoning haha. i wanna play a good marth again
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
You could just go with a more normal approach to the match-up against some Marths. Like, if they're really aggressive, it's typically a lot easier to get close to them; if they DD a lot, it's not a hard to punish a dash backwards with something like wavedash ftilt/dsmash/fsmash.
The whole ice block/blizzard camping thing is my default approach, but if I think something else will work better against my opponent, I'll just switch to that.
The whole ice block/blizzard camping thing is my default approach, but if I think something else will work better against my opponent, I'll just switch to that.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hmmm.
i see!
gotta switch it around
thanks fly!
i see!
gotta switch it around
thanks fly!
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
i actually need to commit to walling my opponent I get board and then I just run into their attacks.
sigh.
Focus, focus.
sigh.
Focus, focus.
I really agree with fly, I think marth and a couple other matchups need to revolve around bliz. I don't know how to use blocks though, seems so easy to jump or roll in. I don't use many block desyncs, but maybe that's what I need to do. I tend to only double iceblock. I guess I can just desync nana block and remain safe at least with popo. Can jiggs be played this way? Why is it that this doesn't work vs falcon, his speed and sh?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
haha
i am definitely fine with walling DK and jigglypuff and ganondorf
ALL DAY.
i am definitely fine with walling DK and jigglypuff and ganondorf
ALL DAY.
Republican0fHeaven
Smash Ace
so what type of wall in general is good against marth? I desynch ice blocks til he approaches, then depending on the timing, either have popo or nana jump into a blizzard -> to a grab or smash with my other climber
Occassionally the marth will see the blizzard coming and jump back, then my desynch is messed up and he can space fair or fsmash
Any other ideas?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
ice blocks if hes far away
if hes mid range try to protect urself with nana blizzards, or stop desynching
if hes mid range try to protect urself with nana blizzards, or stop desynching
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Yeah, I mainly had desynched ice blocks in mind. They serve a couple different purposes.
One of the purposes is simply to keep a continuous desynch going. Nana's blizzard is the real threat, but unless you want to become synced again right after the move finishes, you'll need Popo to do something during the blizzard. Pretty much any move aside from blizzard will work, but even if ice blocks don't accomplish much, they still do more than any other space-filler Popo can throw out to keep the desynch going.
To continue this rant, I'm going to go on a weird and brief tangent about an event in my early days as a Brawl ICs player. I was at a tourney and was camping an MK with desynched blizzards; for those of you who don't know, Brawl ICs can just do Popo blizzard -> Nana blizzard -> Popo blizzard and so on. The MK eventually found a way around it and ended up winning the set. Afterwards, DSF said something like "You should have shot some ice blocks!" I remarked that there was no way they would have hit the MK and DSF said "Still, it's something."
Thinking about that, I've realized there a lot of purposes a move can serve aside from simply hitting an opponent. When I shoot an ice block, I force a response from my opponent. I make him stop to think about how exactly he's going to deal with this ice block and commit to that action. Even if I'm not damaging him, I'm inconveniencing him. If I don't try to apply any pressure to my opponent, he can just move and think freely.
Anyways, regarding the characters you mentioned:
Ice blocks really don't do much to Puff most of the time. Her default behavior gets around them quite effortlessly and furthermore, she can just nair straight through them to approach you. I never used to care for blizzard against Puff, but I think it's situationally okay. It is one of the things you have that will straight up beat bair and it's not easy for Puff to punish something like roll back -> blizzard, so it's a nice way of getting away from pressure and is sometimes okay for creating openings. It's just difficult and risky to commit to a long continuous desynch against her.
Regarding Falcon, his crazy horizontal aerial mobility renders ice blocks extremely unsafe. Blizzard is still okay, but his overall speed lets him still get around it quite easily. It doesn't help that he can just wait for blizzard to end, since anything Popo can throw out to continue the desynch is fairly unsafe against him.
blindfreak9
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2011
- Messages
- 74
so im kinda new here, only been playing smash for about 1 year. (melee of course, i hate brawl) And i have decided to main ic's over some time of long thinking between fox and ic's. i have learned quite well, but... i have one question that baffles me. How does fly do that edge hogging with only nana, where it's like desync or something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujNwhwjx9jQ. start at 0:50. Could someone please tell me how to do that?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
do up-B out of shield. it's a jump cancel up-B, so you have to press B at the exact same time that you jump out of the shield. if you do this properly, for some reason nana is the only one that jumps (and she goes into a normal jump state) while popo is doing the up-B animation. then DI toward the ledge so that nana edgehogs
welcome to smashboards
welcome to smashboards
the_irish_dude
SCG TO
What he said
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Thats what she said.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
who? who's she?
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
s m a r t !
The problem is that the strict timing for the nanabliz>popojab "super desync" forces my concentration on the desync rather than the situation, and I can lose the benefit of the very short lag time because of the focus it requires, but I figure that just like any type of techskill it will eventually get better with time, and I (or anyone else who uses it) will be able to benefit and opt out of the jab once it gets perfected.
im buzzed (on alch) but playing theorybros at its finest.
EDIT: I'm gonna make a video of this I swear. Non edited just the real *****. I won't be able to until wed maybe but I will post it here.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i'm interested.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
I get it but vids are always cute.
I think that if you were doing moves that covered you well or that are safe then focusing on the desync would be less detrimental.
Like nanabliz and popo upsmash you are pretty well covered from them running in and jumping over the bliz
I think that if you were doing moves that covered you well or that are safe then focusing on the desync would be less detrimental.
Like nanabliz and popo upsmash you are pretty well covered from them running in and jumping over the bliz
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
i think you posted a vid before
also i'm in claremont now but i didn't bring a controller so i probably won't be playing much
also i'm in claremont now but i didn't bring a controller so i probably won't be playing much
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I'm also in Claremont right now. I'd totally walk over to wherever you are, but I only have one controller that functions properly.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
both of you road trip to norcal and I will give you both a tv cube controller and a copy of melee.
seriously.
seriously.
The reason you think that is because I invited you onto my stream a looong time ago to play theoryclimbers and that's one of the things I showed you
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I most likely will be around then.
My recorded sets from BEASTII:
Vs Pamaro(Falcon/Fox) (WB)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UD9XD5nXuU
Vs Fuzzyness(Fox)(LB)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAq2qYGaWqM
Any obvious things I miss, like pressure somthing to punish anything for example? I´m usually good against foxes so need to get around that shine or what they are really doing.
Vs Pamaro(Falcon/Fox) (WB)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UD9XD5nXuU
Vs Fuzzyness(Fox)(LB)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAq2qYGaWqM
Any obvious things I miss, like pressure somthing to punish anything for example? I´m usually good against foxes so need to get around that shine or what they are really doing.
Smasher you have really sick movement, better than mine so I can't say much on the neutral game front, but I can talk about some other stuff that should help you beat him next time. Fuzzyness plays a mostly aggressive style, so doubleshields, standing fsmashes to stuff approaches, and sh nairs become much more effective vs that style. I think your biggest blunder was choosing yoshis. You know he has good di, and you weren't catching him in any di traps (fsmash his fastfall) so the small stage was not going to help get early kills, so he gets the great benefit of being to be all over dat ***, and kill your floaty self early on that stage. DL or fd or bf again would have been good choices. The most obvious thing about your play in those videos was (to me) your grab game of course. You've got to execute better and you probably know that. Oh and more fsmash and utilt works better vs foxes like him. Overall your movement is awesome but you need to get ahold of those big punish opprotunities like grabs and smashing fastfalls.
Binx
Smash Master
started lagging for me so I didn't get to watch a ton of it but I noticed you were pretty predictable with your spacing on your uairs when he was on platforms, its safe but its also very unlikely to cause any real pressure or do any damage. You need to do some safe ones and mix it up with something less safe to close the gap a little. I like to waveland and grab or waveland and upsmash on the platform once I read a full jump, sometimes they fall into it, they could also double jump fake me there so the other option is to them full jump uair, doesn't always work but its something to play with in friendlies until you get used to it.
Your movement also was getting predictable, mix it up a little more with dash dances short wavedashes, dashes into shield, wavedashes in place and empty short hop fast falls which can lead into desynch pressure if not reacted to.
And as peef mentioned you dont get enough out of your grabs, if Nana isn't synched and they are at low percent you have to tech chase into a synched grab to get the big damage, watch wobbles thats one of the things he is best at.
Your movement also was getting predictable, mix it up a little more with dash dances short wavedashes, dashes into shield, wavedashes in place and empty short hop fast falls which can lead into desynch pressure if not reacted to.
And as peef mentioned you dont get enough out of your grabs, if Nana isn't synched and they are at low percent you have to tech chase into a synched grab to get the big damage, watch wobbles thats one of the things he is best at.