Social General Ice Climber Chat

[choknater]

i played a lot of ic dittos today

still random but

im slightly more confident

 

[Smasher89]

hello everyone. friendly marth main picking up a sheik counter. I will of course read the matchup guides but first i've been playing a few games to get used to the char. However, I can't seem to solo chain grab very long with popo. what percentages should it work at if they DI away and jump?

If you expect a DI away and jump, you can wd after and uair(bair?!) them=), which works as long as they(atleast shiek) dont tech on the ground(which you should cover with the regrab anyway).

 

[choknater]

peach vs ic's matchup is soooooo easy to do....


throw turnip. make them shield or catch. fair. run away and repeat, or dsmash if u can. random dairs which they cant really punish unless u do it so much that they know to bair oos and your positioning is bad.

man so e-z

i wish we didnt have a bad matchup

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I played McCain a while ago, got over some bad Peach habits, and learned a few little things.

Regarding turnips, you don't need to just catch or shield them. You can jump to a platform, wavedash backwards to avoid it (requires forfeiting space, but being able to forfeit space is one of the luxuries of having it in the first place), or just jump straight up and then use squall hammer to get away. Also, it's not like catching turnips is a bad option; it's a little strange since if Popo throws it, Nana will usually catch it, but if you want to toss it right back at Peach, you can do something like catch with Popo, jump and press Z (which makes Popo drop it and Nana catch it) and then have Nana throw it towards Peach. I'd still prefer to just dodge the turnip unless I'm Sopo, though.

And it's not really hard to punish dair at all. It's really easy to outrange it horizontally, so if she does dair and doesn't immediately hit your shield, you can just punish her more or less however you want to. If she does hit your shield and keeps floating, just nair OoS right as the move finishes. I suppose you can't reliably punish FC dair -> dsmash if done well, but that's not likely to shield poke as long as you either light-shield or angle your shield downward, so it's not much of a problem.

 

[Smasher89]

I´m quite sure I can shieldgrab peach dair, I know I´ve done it before, not sure if dsmash after it is fast enough either(4 frames lag, ten dsmash, I think it should be possible to grab since it´s got a bit endlag too)

 

[knightpraetor]

ok thanks. so basically you are saying it isn't a guaranteed chaingrab..i'm guessing it ends around 40 or so if they DI away

 

[Smasher89]

peach vs ic's matchup is soooooo easy to do....


throw turnip. make them shield or catch. fair. run away and repeat, or dsmash if u can. random dairs which they cant really punish unless u do it so much that they know to bair oos and your positioning is bad.

man so e-z

i wish we didnt have a bad matchup

We do have alot of undiscovererd/unused options against peach, since IC's are 2, there shouldn´t ever be a matchup as hard as the peach matchup is at the moment (for a few years now).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8SFRwL707k

While analyzing the situation after your post(similar one in the video above), I think the peach approach a bit higher?, if theres a platform, waveland backwards(like fly suggest) to iceblock(to still cover the space) works.
But if there isnt´it looks like theres room for enough manuverability to wd backward, shorthop catch turnip>throw back turnip before a fair can hit.
It´ll take a good timing to learn catching but should render the turnips quite unusable/bad for peach(since any damage IC gets on her is good).

Also, a good way to avoid turnips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vciEE5t3Pg

Lol I do rather play a peach then a Falcon all day (due to bad losing streak), just camp her on platforms as popo so you get damage on her, and approach her like Chu used to against cort(watch and think about why he hits) is more interesting then getting camped all day>knee

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Dair is amazing.

 

[AshuRawRun]

IC vs Samus is the most annoying/boring match up ever.

 

[VirtualVoid]

IC vs Samus is the most annoying/boring match up ever.

QFT, if the samus player is campy like he should be, it can take forever to approach with Nana still following you and not eating missiles, and when you lose her it becomes even more boring just trying to get past the freaking tilts

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I think I need to ask myself whether I actually can punish how I want to before committing to an action. Like, a common scenario whenever I play Mango is he jumps and I jump after him, but my aerial barely misses and then he knees me. My read is fine, but the punishment I choose doesn't work; for those of you familiar with the OODA loop, I need to spend a bit more time on the D phase.

Granted, I don't have a lot of time to work these things out, but I'm sure I can handle this better than I currently do.

edit: I also think my Peach is getting near the point where I can legitimately rely on her in case my ICs aren't faring well for whatever reason.

 

[PEEF!]

Fly:

I got so frustrated yesterday. Jay and I played for 18 hours straight at a LAN event and i absolutely could not punish him. Your above comment really speaks to my problems, (as you probably know from watching my stream). I seem to get punished for punishing more than I get hit for any other reason.

For example, when Jay bairs my shield with puff, I do a big WD-Fsmash to crush his retreat, but he dives slightly out of range and reverses the punishment roles. He also will do a fulljump as Falconnear the edge just to get me to try to uair/bair because he knows I am looking for the punishment, but will then doublejump, DI to the center of the stage and bair me, putting me offstage.

I see this happening and I know it is beyond good techskill and mechanics, (which I believe I have) but is moving into 4th and 5th order punishment that I have such a hard time wrapping my mind around. EX: Jay bairs my shield, I WD in deep, he expects me to punish with Fsmash so he eeks out of range and floats waiting punish with bair, and I punish his punish of my punish with a quick SH uair after the wavedash... -__-

This stuff is really getting to me. I just can't seem to do anything right vs him. I feel like I am only winning half the time (when sober) because he SUCKS at edgeguarding and recovery. I feel like I get completely dominated at all other aspects of the game even though my mechanics are fine and I can consciously see this all happening. Even when we play mirror matchups, I feel hopeless. I know I can combo better but I still lose even when I have my thinking cap on the tightest. He is wrecking me terribly with things that I get punished for trying to punish, especially these fulljump doublejump tricks. He never does it the same thing twice (or at least not alot), and when I try to go for the punish of his punish of my punish, the association seems to fall apart. Do I need a new mindset here? I know this happens when playing someone ALOT, but how come I don't/can't do this to him? Why is it that he keeps getting better and better vs me at the neutral game and I am forced to focus more and more on guaranteed combos and perfect grab execution in order to make up for it? I don't feel like competitive gaming is all that great if the answer is "he's better, deal with it", and I am inclined to reject that conclusion.

I know this is very specific Fly but I'm dying over here.

 

[choknater]

i know that question is directed to fly

but in short i'd suggest to add a level of defense to your game. this might help, since you are mostly talking about your attempted punishments failing... just gotta know when to not go for it. and during that time, u could just be trying to establish a better position instead of attacking

edit: whoa swf is magical

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I think I've mentioned before how your smash relationship with Jay reminds me of mine with P back in the day, so as a start, I'll talk about how I dealt with that.

For a solid year or so, playing his Marth was the most frustrating thing ever. I could never seem to approach him; every time I would try to hit him, he'd either manage to squeeze out another move to intercept my approach or he'd be able to run backwards to dodge my punishment. Since I was a really impulsive player who would try to punish anything I thought I could, this was very infuriating. After a while, I came to a few main realizations that helped me turn the tides.

I don't have to approach every time I think I can. Every time that I would rush in and get utilt'd was a time that I could have stood still and waited for the utilt to end. Every time he would dash back when I would approach with a move was a time when I could have just moved forward a bit or stayed in place and maintain my good position. As tempting as it is to act on every opportunity to land a hit, taking every opportunity leads to nothing. You need to recognize that your opponent expects you to approach and see what you can do in response to his preferred ways of punishing your punishments.


Looking at your particular situation, it looks like most of the scenarios you're having problems with are ones where you're the one making a risky approach. Jay is doing something pretty safe and you're challenging it, and that tends to be a losing battle. This can be really hard, but try not to always act on every opportunity to approach. If Jay is Puff and he bairs your shield, try doing something aside from just wavedashing in and forcing the usual losing guessing game. For example, you could drop your shield and move forward a little bit; you could shoot ice blocks, which are nice against Puff for reasons you're likely already aware of. You probably won't usually accomplish all that much directly by withholding the urge to always approach, but you won't always be playing on Jay's terms and it'll become harder for Jay to guess when/how you approach him.

 

[PEEF!]

I think I've mentioned before how your smash relationship with Jay reminds me of mine with P back in the day, so as a start, I'll talk about how I dealt with that.

For a solid year or so, playing his Marth was the most frustrating thing ever. I could never seem to approach him; every time I would try to hit him, he'd either manage to squeeze out another move to intercept my approach or he'd be able to run backwards to dodge my punishment. Since I was a really impulsive player who would try to punish anything I thought I could, this was very infuriating. After a while, I came to a few main realizations that helped me turn the tides.

I don't have to approach every time I think I can. Every time that I would rush in and get utilt'd was a time that I could have stood still and waited for the utilt to end. Every time he would dash back when I would approach with a move was a time when I could have just moved forward a bit or stayed in place and maintain my good position. As tempting as it is to act on every opportunity to land a hit, taking every opportunity leads to nothing. You need to recognize that your opponent expects you to approach and see what you can do in response to his preferred ways of punishing your punishments.


Looking at your particular situation, it looks like most of the scenarios you're having problems with are ones where you're the one making a risky approach. Jay is doing something pretty safe and you're challenging it, and that tends to be a losing battle. This can be really hard, but try not to always act on every opportunity to approach. If Jay is Puff and he bairs your shield, try doing something aside from just wavedashing in and forcing the usual losing guessing game. For example, you could drop your shield and move forward a little bit; you could shoot ice blocks, which are nice against Puff for reasons you're likely already aware of. You probably won't usually accomplish all that much directly by withholding the urge to always approach, but you won't always be playing on Jay's terms and it'll become harder for Jay to guess when/how you approach him.

Thanks much for the advice. The second and third paragraphs are extremely helpful in making me feel not alone, because that is exactly how Jay and I are. I need to work really hard to consciously fix that.

Choknater, it would seem that defensive play would help out, but it is susceptible to the same problems. For example, Jay and I played Fox dittoes and I decided I would try to play defensively every other stock. The problem is he knows exactly how I play defensively, so he just approaches when he sees me being defensive because he knows how I will defend.

Fly, do you think Jay or P actually consciously think about these somewhat complicated punishes of punishes, or does it come naturally to them? There are players that I predict extremely well, but usually it is only 2 or 3 things and I could name them before the match. They are also fairly easy like when they whiff an aerial they tend to roll behind me, simple stuff. Jay can never tell me what I am doing wrong. I can always tell everyone that I beat what about their play was predictable because I don't predict it unless I think about it. Even Jay has some habits I catch on to, and I always let him know that I saw it coming. Jay just...predicts without thinking about it? Why can he not just explain what im doing wrong, (or perhaps, why is he reluctant to?? I know it isn't him wanting to keep some advantage...)

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

stop running into the ****

 

[Vts]

Well ark 3 is this weekend and iori+ spaceballs are coming to play and idk if i'm ready lol

Gotta practice and get ready for it ><

wish me luck i gotta beat some stupid good ppl at this tournament

G.vice the beastly ganon, Ihsb the silly samus, chamberlin the basic smart fox, Arby the annoying player, Iori the multi-character BS at high lvl, and Saberguy the guy who beat me in last tournament.

Stupid stacked tournament for little old me.

Also Brain freeze has 9 clips so far lol 1-2m ish of combos it's getting there.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Choknater, it would seem that defensive play would help out, but it is susceptible to the same problems. For example, Jay and I played Fox dittoes and I decided I would try to play defensively every other stock. The problem is he knows exactly how I play defensively, so he just approaches when he sees me being defensive because he knows how I will defend.

Yeah, having multiple different playstyles doesn't fix the problem. Chok's right in a sense that you need to be more defensive, but it's not like you need to have a preset defensive playstyle in addition to the way you normally play; you should continue with your usual style, but simply not always act on every approach opportunity.

Fly, do you think Jay or P actually consciously think about these somewhat complicated punishes of punishes, or does it come naturally to them? There are players that I predict extremely well, but usually it is only 2 or 3 things and I could name them before the match. They are also fairly easy like when they whiff an aerial they tend to roll behind me, simple stuff. Jay can never tell me what I am doing wrong. I can always tell everyone that I beat what about their play was predictable because I don't predict it unless I think about it. Even Jay has some habits I catch on to, and I always let him know that I saw it coming. Jay just...predicts without thinking about it? Why can he not just explain what im doing wrong, (or perhaps, why is he reluctant to?? I know it isn't him wanting to keep some advantage...)

This is one way in which P differs from Jay; he's always been extremely deliberate and could always tell me what my bad habits are and how's he punishing them when asked. Anyways, my best guess about players like Jay is that they pay attention to what works, but not why it works. I'd guess that through playing you a lot, Jay has recognized through trial-and-error that certain things tend to work against you, but never asked why you fall for them, which would explain why he can't tell you what to do differently. I wouldn't stress about him not being able to tell you what you're doing wrong, though. Although much of P's advice was helpful, what ultimately helped me beat him were my own observations about what I could be doing better.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Peef, you don't have to try to punish everytime Puff hits your shield. Avoid being predictable/forcing punishes and you'll do better.

 

[choknater]

there was one day vs puff that i realized i kept getting hit every time i wavedashed in

i stopped wding in and i started doing much better

and then i started wding in at the right times (usually with shield) and did even better

wd fsmash can be useful, but rarely, and only best if u wanna trade some damage for puff's whole stock.

edit:

hey guys now that i'm better at getting blizzards in, i've been employing what i call the homemadewaffles. blizzard -> popo squall -> attack LOL

its a pretty fun tactic

i've been getting a lot better at this game since the speed of marvel is helping my reaction times and determination to get stronger punishes

 

[PEEF!]

Chok: Speed of Marvel? So much slower than smash. -__-

Thanks for the tips guys and Fly especially.

I am going to stream an "emergency" smash session with Jay tonight. We are gonna play and everyone (Jay and viewers included) is going to work at the goal of fixing my problems. I encourage you all to join. We will be starting at 7:30 Central Time.

www.ustream.tv/channel/peefsmash

 

[choknater]

i also happen to main x-23 ahhhhhh so sexy

dat striped bosom

 

[Smasher89]

Peef- This is from my own experience of playing and getting a lossing streak, turning it more even: try too keep these 2 thing in mind when playing a player you constantly lose too: speed up, and every move isn´t neccesary to hit, throwing out random moves(maybe take control of certain zones) creates different situations and different expectations from the opponent.
Works for me when playing against Armadas fox, but is needed to have alot of time to reach that faster speed and decisionmaking.

ALso, a nice trick against puff to get kills.

CC puffs bair at plattforms>dsmash=kill, but save that for kills so it won´t gvet worked around.

 

[ChivalRuse]

i also happen to main x-23 ahhhhhh so sexy

dat striped bosom

Lolol.

What's your complete team?

 

[choknater]

hsien ko, x-23, tron bonne

i always go for the cutest characters

 

[ChivalRuse]

All female team? I like it.

 

[choknater]

hehe

i have a secondary spamming team which i call team salty.. this is for whenever i get zoned out, i counter zone them in superior fashion looool

modok joe chris

both teams weak to teleporters hahahahah. im getting better at seeing/blocking teleports though


anyway

back to ic's ahahahaahhaha

get @ mewtwo's teleport

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What do I do against Marth when I have both climbers present, Marth is at low percent and Wobbling is banned?

 

[choknater]

the most basic neutral position is marth camping/spacing with fair, nair, and dtilt with the help of platforms, and ic's walling with blizzard+ice block desynchs, and either baiting or approaching with waveshield

if marth is being too aggressive it should be easy to find openings where you can grab or get some combo starter like a dash attack. like if he whiffs something, you can react, so find out which moves can punish marth's poorly spaced tilts/fsmash, and poorly timed aerials.

when you grab him, get him off stage cuz you can get soooo much damage from edgeguarding him. if you are capable of handing off marth, do so. dthrow dair is unreliable, but generally most marths get tricked by dthrow -> reverse dair -> usmash, or reverse fsmash. this is escaped by SDI in front of popo, which is terrible di if you just choose to fsmash. mix him up when you get a grab (if you can't kill him immediately)

 

[ChivalRuse]

If Marth f-smashes everytime he hears you wd in, you can do a fake wd (in place) and punish the f-smash lag.

 

[choknater]

eventually marth should be conditioned into not fsmashing... it's just not a good move to use against ic's in general because of how punishable it is

waveshield into marth's fsmash allows him to be punished almost always

unless he tips ur shield

in which case ur still in a good position

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Or if they are air-born.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

hehe

i have a secondary spamming team which i call team salty.. this is for whenever i get zoned out, i counter zone them in superior fashion looool

modok joe chris

both teams weak to teleporters hahahahah. im getting better at seeing/blocking teleports though


anyway

back to ic's ahahahaahhaha

get @ mewtwo's teleport

hsien ko, x-23, tron bonne

i always go for the cutest characters

arthur and two females. somewhere between viper, storm, trish and pheonix.

i call it team Guinevere who?


in other news, i'm probably going to have a smashfest at my house on saturday. it'll be my first time seriously playing in a while. I'm gonna try to step it up and not have so many bad habits(ie not messing up fundamental things) and spacing better. videos will probably come out of this. i wanna improve!

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Terribly-structured-post-dealing-with-a-very-specific-thing warning!


I was just thinking about Falcon's raptor boost. It's something that we mostly know how to deal with pretty well; you can CC it if you're at a low percentage; you can wavedash back and punish it; if you're feeling weird, you can jump over it (not generally advisable); you can full shield it and SDI -> grab, or if your shield is weak, you can just shield-grab; when facing backwards, you can bair OoS.

The situation where Falcon raptor boost straight at your shield when you're facing him is one that I think we might have another option, though; more on that in a bit. The jump and wavedash back options aren't always fast enough to do on reaction. You really shouldn't be doing a full shield against Falcon if your shield is weak, so that option isn't that practical. Shield DI -> grab is nice, but hard, and you can get punished badly if you mess it up.

Anyways, I was wondering why you can shield-grab raptor boost when your shield is weak, but not otherwise. My best guess is that when your shield is small, Falcon needs to travel a bit farther than he would otherwise, since he stops moving more or less once he hits a target. If this is the case, then couldn't we also just angle the shield backwards to achieve the same effect? I'd think that if you're shielding and Falcon raptor boosts when you least expect it, you could still probably tilt the shield back in time in order for this to work. my biggest concern would be that you're more vulnerable to shield-pokes; looking at the gif of raptor boost, it seems like angling the shield up or down a bit wouldn't help much, either. In any case, this might be worth looking into, although we do all have bigger fish to fry.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I don't think you have to angle your shield actually; I can shield grab raptor boost no matter how big my shield is...

 

[PEEF!]

Terribly-structured-post-dealing-with-a-very-specific-thing warning!


I was just thinking about Falcon's raptor boost. It's something that we mostly know how to deal with pretty well; you can CC it if you're at a low percentage; you can wavedash back and punish it; if you're feeling weird, you can jump over it (not generally advisable); you can full shield it and SDI -> grab, or if your shield is weak, you can just shield-grab; when facing backwards, you can bair OoS.

The situation where Falcon raptor boost straight at your shield when you're facing him is one that I think we might have another option, though; more on that in a bit. The jump and wavedash back options aren't always fast enough to do on reaction. You really shouldn't be doing a full shield against Falcon if your shield is weak, so that option isn't that practical. Shield DI -> grab is nice, but hard, and you can get punished badly if you mess it up.

Anyways, I was wondering why you can shield-grab raptor boost when your shield is weak, but not otherwise. My best guess is that when your shield is small, Falcon needs to travel a bit farther than he would otherwise, since he stops moving more or less once he hits a target. If this is the case, then couldn't we also just angle the shield backwards to achieve the same effect? I'd think that if you're shielding and Falcon raptor boosts when you least expect it, you could still probably tilt the shield back in time in order for this to work. my biggest concern would be that you're more vulnerable to shield-pokes; looking at the gif of raptor boost, it seems like angling the shield up or down a bit wouldn't help much, either. In any case, this might be worth looking into, although we do all have bigger fish to fry.

It should work, but so does Shield-SDI. Shield SDI is also guaranteed as I show (sloppily) in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rminRwW8Un0

 

[john!]

I don't think you have to angle your shield actually; I can shield grab raptor boost no matter how big my shield is...

whaaaaaat

are you a wizard

 

[Kyu Puff]

I wish.

All you have to do is grab him before he slides away.

 

[john!]

by "slide" do you mean "moonwalk"? you must have played some of the falcons from my area.

but really, i thought that was impossible with a full shield. can anyone confirm this?

 

[PEEF!]

by "slide" do you mean "moonwalk"? you must have played some of the falcons from my area.

but really, i thought that was impossible with a full shield. can anyone confirm this?

He keeps telling me it's possible, and I keep not being able to do it. I'm generally good at tech/timing stuff like this and it does not work for me...