Ganonic Grimoire (Social) - Commiseration and Hierarchy

[DLA]

I disagree hard, Brawl side B > Melee side B in every conceivable way. You can even recover with it with Brawl. Why do you think they gave Ganon flame choke in P:M? It expands his game so much.

Brawl Ganon's dash attack is also much better (it's the best DA in the game IMO). And Brawldorf's Fsmash is also a lot better.

Other than that, all of Meleedorf's moves are either roughly even, or just flat-out better.


Also, Mink there's a chance I may not go to WABA after all. The closer the date gets, the more I'm thinking of how real the 40 hours I'll spend on the bus will be. But I can't get a refund on the tickets so I'm still leaning towards going.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Ah dude, don't do me like that! I was so excited to team this weekend! Just go! Also I know that feeling cause I'm megabusing to apex.

But you should go, I'd be disappointed if you dip last minute

 

[Rizen]

Brawl's so shield/grab based that air grab specials, besides Ganon's no-stun (or whatever) upB, like choke/KKlaw/Bite/suck etc are very useful. With Link I've said PSing>everything Link has. Techchase moves are generally good too. Brawldorf's (I like that term, lol) bad so a kamikaze attack plus the rule that lets him win last stock is helpful sometimes.
/my take

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Yo DLA. Just let me know as soon as you know so I can figure out my teams situation.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Brawl Ganon's dash attack is also much better (it's the best DA in the game IMO). And Brawldorf's Fsmash is also a lot better.

It's good but not the best. Diddy, Snake, MK, Falco and Fox are better imo and Sheik's might be about as good as Ganon's. If Ganon had better options out of a dash than he does in Brawl then it might be the best DA overall but as of now it's very powerful but has no mix-up potential.

 

[Xubble]

Uh, ZSS's dash attack? Hello?

 

[DLA]

I think of it this way...if diddy, snake, MK, falco, fox, or sheik had a fast dash attack that could kill MK at 105% fresh, it would be a huge buff for any of them. This is coming from someone who plays half of those characters in tournament lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I rather think of it this way: If Ganon had a dash and a grab that are actually worth something his dash attack could compete with the very best.

 

[Xubble]

Well, I see it this way. Ganon has the best dash attack for a kill move. But Diddy, Falco, etc. have better dash attacks for utility (Falco's Gatling Combo, Diddy's nana followups, Snake's DACUS (in fact, I don't think I've ever seen Snake use his dash attack for anything BUT DACUSing), etc.)

 

[-LzR-]

If another character, like Falco was given Ganons dash attack, it would be absolutely insane. It just happens to be on a ****ty char, but is still amazing. If only we had a good dash grab we could actually have a legit mixup there.

 

[Heartstring]

I see it this way

****ing shoulder barge that **** right in the face, That'll learn 'em

 

[Rizen]

The only DA I might consider better than Ganon's is Falco's because the Usmash but that's also because Falco has a fast Usmash. Ganon's dash attack has better kill power than most quick smashes.
Diddy's DA works with bananas but alone I'd say Ivysaur and G&W both have better DAs.
It's like LzR said, Ganon doesn't have other things to help but his DA is killer.

DAC sliding factors things besides DA in so I consider it a separate category.

 

[-LzR-]

Btw if Ganon has such a fast and far reaching DA, why can't we do boost grabs or DACUS or anything? Does our dash speed somehow get in the way or what?

 

[DLA]

If MK was given Ganon's dash attack, he would become so powerful that he would literally dash attack your screen, emerge from the smoking ruins of your television, then swiftly sweep the globe and conquer mankind in a tornado of misery and despair.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

If MK was given Ganon's dash attack, he would become so powerful that he would literally dash attack your screen, emerge from the smoking ruins of your television, then swiftly sweep the globe and conquer mankind in a tornado of misery and despair.

This is why I want to team with you.

 

[Xubble]

Wait wait wait. G&W? Better dash attack than Diddy?

What mad sort of trollery is this??

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

How did I miss that. Ivysaur and Gw dash attacks are dookie sauce. Neither combo into stuff and are mad punishable on shield.

At least Gw can glide toss a little.

 

[Xubble]

Ivy's makes a decent kill move at the very least.

G&W... Worst dash attack in the game in my opinion.

 

[Rizen]

If MK was given Ganon's dash attack, he would become so powerful that he would literally dash attack your screen, emerge from the smoking ruins of your television, then swiftly sweep the globe and conquer mankind in a tornado of misery and despair.

LOL

Wait wait wait. G&W? Better dash attack than Diddy?

What mad sort of trollery is this??

Every DA is punishable on shields.

G&W's DA is extremely spammable, stage spikes ledge hangers because it's downward reach, punishes dodges with long attack duration and sets up juggles. It's good.

Dash Attack:
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-5 Startup
• 6-29 Hitbox out
• 30-37 Cooldown

Frame Summary:
Duration: 37
Hits on frame: 6
Hitbox duration: 24
Cooldown: 8

Ivy's is also spammable and has good KO power for a DA.

 

[Xubble]

You forget that it travels about 2 inches. And nobody is going to be hanging on the ledge without invincibility frames. Especially since G&W has to run straight to the ledge to even perform his dash attack. Nobody's gonna just sit there and take it.

 

[Rizen]

You forget that it travels about 2 inches. And nobody is going to be hanging on the ledge without invincibility frames. Especially since G&W has to run straight to the ledge to even perform his dash attack. Nobody's gonna just sit there and take it.

It goes as far as Diddy's and punishes ledgehops/stalls. Are you saying a frame 6-29 attack with 8 frames cooldown is bad? "Worst in the game"?
/lost cause

 

[Xubble]

Frame data alone doesn't make a move great or bad. If I see G&W running to the ledge, do you know what I'm gonna do? Not stay on the damn ledge anymore. I drop. I see he's stuck (for 32 frames, mind you) with his head on the ledge, and I hit him with a uair or bair or whatever depending on who I'm playing as.

 

[-LzR-]

GWs DA is good. It lasts forever and the hitbox comes a lot quicker than it seems. As long as you don't touch a shield it's awesome. But then again, not many characters can touch shields with DAs. Not that his DA is anything special, other than beating pretty much all kinds of invincibility, it's average.

 

[Heartstring]

G&W's dash attack is gimmicky at best. It can be used to catch someone out on the ledge if you see a pattern, but anyone worth their salt isnt going to get ****ed for it

anyway, dash attack social? dash attack social
MK's: Good, but outclassed by his other stuff. 6/10
Olimars: not useful in his repitoire due to all the superior moves, nothing to write home about too. 3/10
Diddy Kong: Fast, Multi hit, Virtually no ending lag and needs someone like mk or marth to punish it on shield. 9/10
Ice climbers: Nothing special. and doesnt really bring anything to the table. 4/10
Snake: Deceptively fast, Strong, Assists with DACUS and long Boost grabs. 8/10
Falco: Useful as ranged OOS option and can be used for a gatling combo. but weak and fairly punishable. 6/10
Marth: Can be used from grab release on MK. Thats about it. 3/10
Pikachu: Fast with reasonable range, but mediocre as hell. 4/10
Wario: About as average as most DA's, But has huge reporcussions if shielded. 3/10
ZSS: Has a lock, Very fast and pretty safe 8/10
Lucario: pretty laggy all around and not much range, not affected by aura. 4/10
Dedede: Good for reading a spot dodge, extremely powerful but really slow 5/10
Toon link: Fast, weak, can trip, mediocre. 4/10
Wolf: Kinda slow with a lot of cooldown, pretty much useless to him 3/10
G&W: Good for spotdodges and ledge hangers, nice mixup but lots of end lag 5/10
Fox: pretty much the same as falco's. But can pseudo lead into Utilt at low percents 6/10
Peach: Very fast and good range, decent punishing tool. 6/10
Pit: Same as peach, and has kill power at close range. 6/10
ROB: Fast and pops them up for a followup, but will be in a terrible position if blocked. 4/10
Kirby: Pretty poor, Can work for spotdodges too but less reliable at it then G&W. 4/10
Sonic: Very fast punishment tool, very low knockback on the end of the hit though 5/10
DK: Iffy at best, and pretty much useless because of the general speed and ending lag 3/10
Ike: Good tool when spaced, Can be combo'd into and travels a deceptive distance. 6/10
Sheik: Fast startup. but VERY punishable if it doesnt land. 4/10
Yoshi: Medicore speedy dash attack. 4/10
Ness: Fast with high range. useful tool 5/10
Charizard: See: DK 3/10
Squirtle: Pretty bad DA, but lasts for a while 4/10
Ivysaur: Fast and with a long lasting hitbox, only strong initially and long cooldown. 5/10
Luigi: Laughable, punishable on hit. 1/10
Lucas: Slow startup and decent range, iffy. 4/10
Mario: Fast startup and good for punishing spot dodges. but lots of cooldown and does almost no damage/KB 4/10
Samus: Fast and okay knockback, But tends to put her in an iffy position. 5/10
Bowser: Slow on both ends and really of little use. 2/10
Falcon: Fast and pops them up. one of his better moves. 5/10
Jiggly: Quick and powerful, travels a fair distance too. probably her best grounded tool 6/10
Link: Fast and high range, for OOS punishing and has lots of cooldown. 4/10
Zelda: Fast and no huge cooldown, but generally poor. 4/10
Ganon: HADES SHOULDER BARGE! 9999/10 (for real: Fast, with high range and very strong kill move during the initial hitbox. But difficult to get to a position to use it. 6/10)

Why do i enjoy typing up this sort of crap ><

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yoshi, Kirby, Sheik and Falco deserve better ratings that that imo.

 

[Rizen]

G&W's dash attack is gimmicky at best. It can be used to catch someone out on the ledge if you see a pattern, but anyone worth their salt isnt going to get ****ed for it

Diddy Kong: Fast, Multi hit, Virtually no ending lag and needs someone like mk or marth
G&W: Good for spotdodges and ledge hangers, nice mixup but lots of end lag 5/10

DA cool down:
Diddy 13 frames
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290226
G&W 8 frames
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189251

Listen to the people who actually play G&W

Ganon's should be 666/10 btw.

 

[Heartstring]

Yoshi, Kirby, Sheik and Falco deserve better ratings that that imo.

You're probably right in this sense, I dont get to play any yoshi's. Kirby was a typo which im going to fix in a min (was meant to be 4/10) Falcos is good. but I just quite feel THAT good because it gets drowned by his other tools, and sheiks...ive never really rated it myself, its rediculously fast on startup. I do give it that

DA cool down:
Diddy 13 frames
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290226
G&W 8 frames
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189251

Listen to the people who actually play G&W

DA shield advantage:
G&W:
Shield advantage 1*: -28
Shield drop advantage 1: -21
Shield advantage 2**: -20
Shield drop advantage 2: -13
(1 means first part, 2 means second part)

Diddy:
Third hit:
Shield advantage: -13
shield drop advantage: -6
AND that isnt taking into account the IASA frames which is on Diddy's DA. I cant however find the frame data page showing this ><

Listen to the people who actually know how to read frame data

 

[Rizen]

Listen to the people who actually know how to read frame data

That's why you don't DA into shields. You started talking about ending lag and were wrong then pulled a Romney and switched to shield advantage.

/this is stupid, I'm done.

(double facepalm @ U )

 

[Xubble]

Rizen, you forget one very important thing.

The IASA frame.

You're right, G&W has a long hitbox. And he'll sit there for half a second, regretting the decision as a sword or foot or hammer or bigger sword or what have you hits him square in the head. Meanwhile, Diddy will be rolling around the stage, throwing nanas and comboing like nobody else can.

Edit: Rofl @ how mad he is.

 

[Heartstring]

as far as its concerned, its the same thing really because if it misses outright, its going to get punished, if it hits, then its not, if it gets blocked, thats when the actually advantage is important. so yeah my terminology was wrong, that much i do admit
...
But you said G&W and ivy had spammable Dash attacks, Come on now. I may be changing by story slightly but youre not even on the correct page, Im romney and youre being a deep southern country bumpkin. I thought people stopped being so terrible wrong in 09

 

[Xubble]

You know who spams G&W's dash attack?

Level 9 Melee CPU.

 

[Heartstring]

You know who spams G&W's dash attack?

Level 9 Melee CPU.

Does it actualy?
I tell you, Im trying to learn how to melee, and i have CPU for practise, cpu fox and falco just grab and jab all day, I cant get crouch cancelled dtilts or grabs to work because they keep jabbing >.<

 

[Xubble]

CPUs in Melee:

Neutral B at long distance
Walk always
Grab when approaching
If within range, any other attack randomly (mostly jab though)

G&W happens to mostly dash attack. Play one sometime, it's fun to watch.

 

[Heartstring]

that will keep me amused when youtube isnt working next :B

 

[Xubble]

If Mario jumps off the left side of FD to do his fair, he will derp and UpB backwards and die when recovering.

Level 9 Ness on Jungle Japes (player two slot) will auto kill himself on the first stock.

I can't remember any other silly things.

 

[Rizen]

You're right, G&W has a long hitbox. And he'll sit there for half a second, regretting the decision as a sword or foot or hammer or bigger sword or what have you hits him square in the head. Meanwhile, Diddy will be rolling around the stage, throwing nanas and comboing like nobody else can.

Both end frame 37.

G&W... Worst dash attack in the game in my opinion.

as far as its concerned, its the same thing really because if it misses outright, its going to get punished, if it hits, then its not, if it gets blocked, thats when the actually advantage is important. so yeah my terminology was wrong, that much i do admit
...
But you said G&W and ivy had spammable Dash attacks, Come on now. I may be changing by story slightly but youre not even on the correct page, Im romney and youre being a deep southern country bumpkin. I thought people stopped being so terrible wrong in 09

Relative to DAs they are spammable. G&W's more so; it's great to punish landings. Spammable is relative. DAing into shields is stupid by any political affiliation.

And you're supposed to '' me back.

 

[Xubble]

You really don't understand. Wow.

IASA frame. The frame where you can INTERRUPT the animation and do ANYTHING.

Diddy effectively has almost non-existent ending lag on his dash attack because he interrupts the animation almost immediately after the hitbox is gone.

 

[Rizen]

Diddy effectively has almost non-existent ending lag on his dash attack because he interrupts the animation almost immediately after the hitbox is gone.

I know what interruptable as soon as means and it doesn't mean no lag. 13 frames isn't bad.
I know how too use G&W too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn0iNztJ03Y&list=PLDC7F8FD99C40C4DB&index=13&feature=plpp_video
And I know what isn't the worst DA in the game.

Edit: this stopped being fun several posts ago. I say G&W's DA is good, believe what you want.

 

[Xubble]

>Makes Romney joke
>Presents random video to "make point"

My point is not that G&W has the worst DA. That's my opinion. Hell, G~P reminded me about Luigi's, so it's not like I think that anymore. My point is that Diddy's IASA frame is NOT 37. I don't get why you think that.

 

[-LzR-]

The thing is, GW DA clashes with many things on the ground and beats almost all beatable projectiles as well. It's perfect for covering dodges and landings and the hitbox is surprisingly big. And of course it puts the opponent in the perfect angle for followups. It's definitely good, but of course it's nothing compared to Ganons.