Ganonic Grimoire (Social) - Commiseration and Hierarchy

[Supreme Dirt]

Everyone underestimates Lucario in the MU except for those of us who actually play the character.

It's really hard for Ganon. We can camp the hell out of him with AS, and Ganon is easier to gimp than we are. Doesn't matter that Cario has 70% kill power when for every 1 hit ganon gets we get 5 or 6.

It's also really not hard for us to get Ganon offstage, FAir is a beast move for that. And then we can have our way with him. Personally I go for footstools offstage.

Then again, I don't play this MU as Cario.

I play the ditto, like a real man.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I can see Ganon beating Falcon in the match-up and tbh I think he's a better character too.
What do people think about the match-up vs Lucario? I don't see how it's supposed to be that bad =/

Ganon doesn't beat Falcon. Falcon's N-air and F-air (not the sweetspot necessarily, the sourspot is plenty annoying) are obnoxiously good against Ganon's tall figure, and the latter can guarantee gimps offstage that Ganon can sometimes do very little about. Falcon's Jab and grab mixups are also very difficult for Ganon to deal with used correctly.

Also I think Falcon has slight adv against Donkey Kong and Samus, which are both not in Ganon's favor either. And maybe Wario.

Ganon however does beat Bowser, but is still a worse character in overall matchup spreads.

Vs Lucario isn't in Ganon's favor either but it definitely is manageable. Gay, but manageable. The Pit matchup is pretty similar as well.

 

[Makke]

........................

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think Falcon has a match-up that's in his favor <_<

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Wario?
****'s pretty funny.

 

[Exalted]

Bait. Grab. Win.

In all honesty though, I have way too little experience in the Wario MU :<

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think Falcon has a match-up that's in his favor <_<

Let's see.

DK can't do much about Falcon's Jab and grab game. F-air and N-air are ultra gay for DK to deal with, and he gets juggled forever, which is gg for him once he's past 100% since it only takes a well placed Smash against his crappy ledge game to score a kill.

Samus can't keep out Falcon forever and gets juggled forever once he gets in. His Jab cancel game is extra good on her floaty figure.

Bowser suffers slightly less from Falcon's Jab game than DK, but suffers far more when he's above Falcon or offstage. And he doesn't really have the tools to stop Falcon from getting in with a grab, which alone is enough for Falcon to win.

Link is a little harder for Falcon to juggle, but he can do zilch against Falcon's Jab mixups especially since he lacks an OOS option to really get Falcon off him after an aerial approach. Weak F-air edgeguards can also be gay for Link to deal with.

Ganon as stated gets owned by N-air and F-air all day. Jab mixups are hard to deal with, and he's too easily gimped.

Falcon might beat Ness for similar reasons he does well against Wario, since he also gets a free air release to knee on Ness, and he can outmaneuver Ness all day until he gets the baits he wants. Admittedly Ness's normals aren't quite as freely beaten out by Falcon's Jab but he can't usually punish Falcon's landing as well as Wario can.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Let's see.

DK can't do much about Falcon's Jab and grab game. F-air and N-air are ultra gay for DK to deal with, and he gets juggled forever, which is gg for him once he's past 100% since it only takes a well placed Smash against his crappy ledge game to score a kill.

Samus can't keep out Falcon forever and gets juggled forever once he gets in. His Jab cancel game is extra good on her floaty figure.

Bowser suffers slightly less from Falcon's Jab game than DK, but suffers far more when he's above Falcon or offstage. And he doesn't really have the tools to stop Falcon from getting in with a grab, which alone is enough for Falcon to win.

Link is a little harder for Falcon to juggle, but he can do zilch against Falcon's Jab mixups especially since he lacks an OOS option to really get Falcon off him after an aerial approach. Weak F-air edgeguards can also be gay for Link to deal with.

Ganon as stated gets owned by N-air and F-air all day. Jab mixups are hard to deal with, and he's too easily gimped.

Falcon might beat Ness for similar reasons he does well against Wario, since he also gets a free air release to knee on Ness, and he can outmaneuver Ness all day until he gets the baits he wants. Admittedly Ness's normals aren't quite as freely beaten out by Falcon's Jab but he can't usually punish Falcon's landing as well as Wario can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kTi0fmyHIU

 

[Heartstring]

ouh boy, here we go again
brb, taking shelter

 

[DLA]

Kung Fu buddy?

Is there a timing to the DTilt's

For Ftilt on MK you don't want to buffer it right away right? I've noticed Ftilt not hitting if i immediately buffer it, does that work the same for the Dtilt?

There's no timing to Dtilt, the trick is to hold down the control stick only about 1/3 of the way down so that you Dtilt without crouching. If you hold the control stick all of the way down, Ganon crouches before the Dtilt every time, and it adds frames and lets the opponent escape. This is really important and something every Ganon should know.

There's also a special way to buffer Ftilt out of Gerudo that Z1GMA discovered a while ago. You need to gerudo, hold the control stick in the Ftilt's direction, then within 10 frames of the end of the gerudo animation, press A (for the Ftilt) and release the control stick. Before the animation ends. This is the only reliable way to buffer Ftilt out of Gerudo.

i think the thing with ftilt is that if they hold away. they move a bit away from us so ftilts horribly short hitbox doesnt reach.
just theorising, ive never had many problems with it

Your opponent's DI out of Gerudo doesn't matter, read above

I can see Ganon beating Falcon in the match-up and tbh I think he's a better character too.
What do people think about the match-up vs Lucario? I don't see how it's supposed to be that bad =/

Lucario vs. Ganon is pretty awful, especially when Ganon is trying to kill. I've had Lucarios make 2-stock comebacks off of my Ganon because they start playing retardedly safe when they're about to lose and Ganon simply can't approach. Which isn't good when Lucario becomes the only character in the game with more killing power than Ganon (when Luc's at high %).

 

[Makke]

.......................

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

There's no timing to Dtilt, the trick is to hold down the control stick only about 1/3 of the way down so that you Dtilt without crouching. If you hold the control stick all of the way down, Ganon crouches before the Dtilt every time, and it adds frames and lets the opponent escape. This is really important and something every Ganon should know.

There's also a special way to buffer Ftilt out of Gerudo that Z1GMA discovered a while ago. You need to gerudo, hold the control stick in the Ftilt's direction, then within 10 frames of the end of the gerudo animation, press A (for the Ftilt) and release the control stick. Before the animation ends. This is the only reliable way to buffer Ftilt out of Gerudo.

Thank you very much for this.

 

[Vermanubis]

I feel this might be a decent reference for the MU:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZavr0fC-co

 

[Makke]

.....................

 

[A2ZOMG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kTi0fmyHIU

I don't know what you're trying to deny. DK's >100% ledge game is free except on maybe Yoshis, and it doesn't take a genius to kill DK once you have him on the edge and at a kill percent. And Rich definitely missed more than one opportunity to keep DK's ledgejump/hop in check. If you're trying to make a point, make it clear. And keep it relevant to the matchup I'm discussing.

 

[Heartstring]

dk's ledge game over 100 works the same as robs does at all times. wait for them to ty and punish you for something, and then punish their punish

 

[~ Gheb ~]

-2 |
-1 / -2 |
-1 |
0 |
0 / +1 |

These are some match-up I feel like Ganon has a realistic chance to win in tourney. There might be others I'm not sure about but these are all based on actual gameplay experience. Theorycrafting Ganon's match-up is really hard and might be the reason why a lot of his match-ups are perceived incorrectly by the majority of people [vs Luigi being a wonderful example]. I'm honestly inclined to put ICs as -2 or -3 at worst as well.

 

[Makke]

....................

 

[~ Gheb ~]

-2 isn't *that* bad. I just feel that Lucas solidly beats Ganon and has the advantage in most situations.

 

[Heartstring]

living near a top luigi, i would put luigi ganon as even or close to even, its at least -1. i think that G&W is probably harder than that too. otherwise i completely agree with that listing

 

[Vermanubis]

The thing I want to point out about Ganon never having an even MU is because a MU being in his favor is contingent upon the other player approaching excessively and being ignorant of the MU. Bowser and Luigi are close to even, but they both have the virtue of never having to approach and having far better zoning options than Ganon.

That generally looks good, except for the Falcon, Bowser, Luigi and Yoshi placements. Yoshi is definitely -3, and Falcon isn't in Ganon's favor should the Falcon choose to play defensively.

 

[DellSmashman]

LOL at Ganon +1 over Falcon............. Falcon wins.

Just wondering, does Falcon's jab beat out Side B approaches?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah Yoshi ***** Ganon.

And pretty much everything beats side-B approaches, it's a ****ty approach option.

 

[Heartstring]

sideb approach is only good if youre name is k.mac (inside jokes)

ganons side b is the sort of thing you punish missed/powerhsielded laggy moves with, and techchasing, that too

 

[DLA]

Falcon's jab does not beat Ganon's side B lol. It's called grab armor you goobers.

Besides who approaches with side B? It's supposed to be strictly a punishment tool (just like Falcon's side B in melee--and Ganon's too I guess)

 

[Supreme Dirt]

A damn sexy punishment tool.

My techchasing is legendary apparently.

I absolutely love doing around 100% on reads alone.

I 0-death'd somebody with flamechoke + dash attack once, wish I'd saved the replay.

I want to say he was MK, but I don't really remember.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Unless Yoshi has an infinite / 0-death that I don't know about I seriously doubt it's any worse than -2 ...

 

[Makke]

................

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yoshi doesn't need an infinite or 0-death.

A Yoshi who doesn't want to get hit won't get hit.

 

[the king of murder]

Yoshi's GR-> F-air isn't guaranteed on us if we U-air. The problem is, if we do that and the Yoshi predicts you, he will go for an edgehog instead. For that reason you don't waste your Double Jump.

 

[Vermanubis]

Unless Yoshi has an infinite / 0-death that I don't know about I seriously doubt it's any worse than -2 ...

Theorycrafters are murdered on sight 'round there parts.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I have a lot of Yoshi experience lol

 

[Vermanubis]

I have a lot of Yoshi experience lol

As Ganon against a reputable Yoshi? By reputable, I mean collectively, not comparitively, i.e. Top 5 Yoshi versus best Yoshi in an obscure state/country/WiFi.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Guess we run into a problem here because to americans most things outside of their country is quickly considered "obscure". If it helps you you can search for a Yoshi player named "Slice" on youtube. There are videos of him vs my Wolf and vs my Mario.

And yeah he is reputable - collectively.

 

[Vermanubis]

I checked him out. He's definitely good, but I noticed he has a style that generally mitigates Yoshi's success: aggression. As with anything, if something's aggressive, with the exception of MK 'cause he can frametrap us, we'll destroy it.

Not to mention I don't suspect you use Ganon, so it'd be hard to gauge MU ratios. Yoshi is regarded as being in roughly the top 33 percentile of Ganon's worst MUs. He has frame-safe landings, aerial walls that are extremely difficult to break and a solid camp game. Yoshi suffers against characters who have superior frontal zoning options, which is precisely what Ganon lacks the most, so you're constantly at risk for a lengthy CG which does run the risk of being a 0-death on every stage with the exception of Battlefield and RC.

The only reason it isn't a guaranteed 0-death is because Ganon can UAir to discourage a FAir follow-up, but that's his only alternative, which makes the 0-death prospect a coin flip.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Verm doesn't know anything about this character.

Spoiler

except everything

 

[PK-ow!]

Is there not a friend finder anymore? I'm looking for wifi games tonight, Gannz. (Gantlemen?)
Do people still use the Xats?
EDIT: I'm out. x_x

 

[Alien Vision]

Hello people. It just dawned on me that I've never really said anything in the Ganon boards.

Soo... Hi.

I am a proud Ganondorf main. My second is Bowser, while my third is Lucario. My Ganondorf is at a very professional level without me studying the character's MU's. If I knew how to handle characters with MU knowledge, I could become a formidable force. I can't go anywhere to show how much Ganon really can do because financial woes are fail.

I am also on the poetic side like Verm. I like to think that I am about two levels below Verm actually. He PS's alot better than I can, and knows a bit more of Ganon's AT's. I am getting up there though. My ego won't let me give up. Woo!

Cheers!

 

[Heartstring]

so guys, i got second at a tournament with ganondorf playing an important part in it, he also won me a money match, which inadvertadly bought me a irn-bru and a pack of mcCoys smoked bacon crisps. deliciously ganonic XD

i also developed my reading skills here, my previous stated money match had an entire stock for side-b techchasing (admittedly it was r.o.b, he has no roll or GEA lol) which has incredible levels of hype

 

[DLA]

Hello people. It just dawned on me that I've never really said anything in the Ganon boards.

Soo... Hi.

I am a proud Ganondorf main. My second is Bowser, while my third is Lucario. My Ganondorf is at a very professional level without me studying the character's MU's. If I knew how to handle characters with MU knowledge, I could become a formidable force. I can't go anywhere to show how much Ganon really can do because financial woes are fail.

I am also on the poetic side like Verm. I like to think that I am about two levels below Verm actually. He PS's alot better than I can, and knows a bit more of Ganon's AT's. I am getting up there though. My ego won't let me give up. Woo!

Cheers!

Welcome to the Ganon board. I hope you make it to a tournament soon; I feel it would be quite an enlightening experience for you hehe.

so guys, i got second at a tournament with ganondorf playing an important part in it, he also won me a money match, which inadvertadly bought me a irn-bru and a pack of mcCoys smoked bacon crisps. deliciously ganonic XD

i also developed my reading skills here, my previous stated money match had an entire stock for side-b techchasing (admittedly it was r.o.b, he has no roll or GEA lol) which has incredible levels of hype

good stuff. WTF is an irn-bru? it had better contain alcohol.