Ganondorf's Top 8 Custom Movesets

[DunnoBro]

Sword should take precedence, more popular and more usage. The other specials are more needed to mix/match, and sword at least is recognized as usable by thrust advocates but not so much the converse.

If every viable combination of other specials is used up, then thrust can come in. (though i believe default punch for teams might be better... The situations sword will hit and kill are about the same as dark fist doing it in teams)

 

[freezy]

7 sets with sword for all those sword lovers, 2 sets with thrust and 1 set with standard is fine imo

imo also most of the sets with flame choke and wizard drop kick, some sets with flame chain and wizard foot, with dark dive and dark fists spread equally.


can someone create a new final list cos we hit the deadline?

 

[adom4]

If the list isn't locked yet i would like to suggest a 1121 set specifically against Charizard.
Charizard becomes much better with customs due to dragon rush & i believe this set is the best against because warlock punch makes it incredibly dangerous to land with rock smash as it tanks through it.
I think regular kick here is better because charizard can't really juggle that well & dark fists is enough for recovering, also charizard is a bit too short for drop kick IMO.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I have a question for you guys. How big is the hitbox for Darkfists? I'm watching a stream with Ganondorf using dark fists on a villager. Ganondorf was in the air slightly above a grounded villager and he still managed to send him flying with dark fists.

 

[DunnoBro]

I have a question for you guys. How big is the hitbox for Darkfists? I'm watching a stream with Ganondorf using dark fists on a villager. Ganondorf was in the air slightly above a grounded villager and he still managed to send him flying with dark fists.

Not too big, but it's low. Around his knees. So it can be used to punish shield drops, people get conditioned or ganon to just land at a certain point because his aerials aren't quick enough to come out while falling around short hop height from the ground, but dark fist can beat a grab/shield drop. If there are platforms the punish won't usually be too bad also.

Also holy crap kirby is the jankiest matchup. Everytime I played Chudat's custom kirby today, it was over in less than a minute. Either he cheesed me with jumping inhale (which ganondorf is too tall to avoid) or I cheesed him with punishing that or an aerial on my shield with dark fist with him at like 20% and killing him because rage + kirby.

 

[JmacAttack]

Something to consider for dark fist fiends, if you plan on being a dedicated ganondorf main, I'd recommend playing with tap jump on. It makes dark fists a much more reliably OoS option, and you guys don't really use uptilt...

Yeah, but that removes the option of falling up-air off the stage, since you'll jump. If tap jump didn't go off with your second jump, I'd agree.

Also, Ray, I used 3122 in friendlies yesterday, and I now see why you like Thrust so much. It's a great OOS punish tool for what would normally be perfectly spaced fading aerials, it deals high damage, and that meaty hitstun is magnificent.

Still prefer sword for some matchups, but I am definitely liking Thrust a lot better now.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yeah, but that removes the option of falling up-air off the stage, since you'll jump. If tap jump didn't go off with your second jump, I'd agree.

I personally have no issues using c-stick for this... Though I already used c-stick for most of my aerials with z-jump so it wasn't a hard transition.

 

[JmacAttack]

I personally have no issues using c-stick for this... Though I already used c-stick for most of my aerials with z-jump so it wasn't a hard transition.

I honestly keep forgetting I can use the C-stick for aerials (a habit I am trying to break). I'll try that out.

 

[DunnoBro]

I honestly keep forgetting I can use the C-stick for aerials (a habit I am trying to break). I'll try that out.

Tap jump + C-stick to attack makes retreating lagless shorthop upairs a lot easier for me. (smash c-stick cancels into upsmash often... though sometimes attack causes you to just uptilt, which sucks, but it's a much more avoidable mistake imo)

I mostly use Y/A for nair and RAR bair. And Z-jump for specific timing movements (like for punishing air dodges)

 

[JmacAttack]

I just learned from experience that you can escape combos with Dark Fists, potentially even make them your kill. Worked against Ness' Dthrow -> Fair combo. Don't know if it works on Hoo-Hah at high percents yet but if it does...

I like customs.

Regardless of that, though, it is a SERIOUS out of shield option that punishes mis-spaced aerials with a potential 60% kill off the top.

 

[Vermanubis]

I just learned from experience that you can escape combos with Dark Fists, potentially even make them your kill. Worked against Ness' Dthrow -> Fair combo. Don't know if it works on Hoo-Hah at high percents yet but if it does...

I like customs.

Regardless of that, though, it is a SERIOUS out of shield option that punishes mis-spaced aerials with a potential 60% kill off the top.

DF is Ganon's best custom, imo. The super armor is just nuts. It's basically an under-the-ledge UTilt while recovering. Beyond that, I really wish someone would release some more frame data. We have active and ending lag, but zero start-up data. It'd be really nice to know who gets hit by DF out of choke without having to manually test each character.

 

[JmacAttack]

DF is Ganon's best custom, imo. The super armor is just nuts. It's basically an under-the-ledge UTilt while recovering. Beyond that, I really wish someone would release some more frame data. We have active and ending lag, but zero start-up data. It'd be really nice to know who gets hit by DF out of choke without having to manually test each character.

God, I know. If only acquiring that data didn't require hacks and modded consoles.

 

[Blobface]

Dark fists hits on frame 12. If the following characters still have the same frame advantage out of Flame Choke from Brawl, they should be hit by it. All others are safe.

12 G&W
12 Jigglypuff
12 Kirby
12 Metaknight
12 Ness
12 ROB
12 Wario
12 Yoshi
12 ZSS

16 Olimar

Unfortunately, it only works on poor old Olimar from what I can tell. You'd think someone form a game series about time management would get up faster.

On a side note Dark fists is actually frame 15. No clue where I got 12 from.

While looking at this frame data (go to Big O's post), I noticed something odd. It seems that Falco and Lucario both had their frame data changed for some arbitrary reason. They got up too fast to be hit by F-tilt or D-tilt in brawl, but now they get hit by both.

 

[Big O]

DF is Ganon's best custom, imo. The super armor is just nuts. It's basically an under-the-ledge UTilt while recovering. Beyond that, I really wish someone would release some more frame data. We have active and ending lag, but zero start-up data. It'd be really nice to know who gets hit by DF out of choke without having to manually test each character.

I'm not sure what you are asking for here, but in my thread there is data for DF and every other move he has. In it I have active frames and total frames, which indirectly gives you the start-up frames and cooldown frames of the move. Subtract 1 from the first active frame and you get the start-up frames. Subtract the last active frame from the total and you will get the cooldown frames. To be honest, I find start-up largely redundant and always hated that about conventional fighter frame data. I think it's a lot simpler to see x hits frame y rather than x has y-1 start-up.

As for your question on who gets hit by DF out of choke, the answer is only Olimar if he doesn't tech. Hitting anyone else with it comes down to catching people not pressing anything at all.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm not sure what you are asking for here, but in my thread there is data for DF and every other move he has. In it I have active frames and total frames, which indirectly gives you the start-up frames and cooldown frames of the move. Subtract 1 from the first active frame and you get the start-up frames. Subtract the last active frame from the total and you will get the cooldown frames. To be honest, I find start-up largely redundant and always hated that about conventional fighter frame data. I think it's a lot simpler to see x hits frame y rather than x has y-1 start-up.

As for your question on who gets hit by DF out of choke, the answer is only Olimar if he doesn't tech. Hitting anyone else with it comes down to catching people not pressing anything at all.

Thanks for the info!

And it wasn't a slight against the work you've done by any means. It wasn't even so much Ganon specific as it was a universal wish for more frame data. A few other boards that I've checked don't have accessible frame data, which makes knowing our own in some cases a little vacuous. Roll data, for example.

But if you know of a compendium, you'd have my eternal gratitude for direction thereto. Then again, it's been a while since I've checked said boards.

 

[Big O]

Thanks for the info!

And it wasn't a slight against the work you've done by any means. It wasn't even so much Ganon specific as it was a universal wish for more frame data. A few other boards that I've checked don't have accessible frame data, which makes knowing our own in some cases a little vacuous. Roll data, for example.

But if know of a compendium, in which case, you'd have my eternal gratitude for direction thereto. Then again, it's been a while since I've checked said boards.

No worries, I didn't take it as a slight. Sometimes people get confused because our frame data is often structured differently (and better imo) from traditional fighters. I just assumed that was the source of your confusion. Here is a compendium of links to frame data threads.

 

[Vermanubis]

No worries, I didn't take it as a slight. Sometimes people get confused because our frame data is often structured differently (and better imo) from traditional fighters. I just assumed that was the source of your confusion. Here is a compendium of links to frame data threads.

Much obliged, sir.

 

[JmacAttack]

BIG discovery. While labbing today, I just found out that if Villager misses the tech on Flame Choke, he, just like Olimar, is vulnerable to Dark Fists as a followup.

IT KILLS HIM AT 40.

Considering Villager is a high profile character in the Customs Legal game because of his Balloons and Timber Counter, this is a HUGE breakthrough. An AMAZING boon in a matchup we've classically struggled with.

EDIT: Nope.

No worries, I didn't take it as a slight. Sometimes people get confused because our frame data is often structured differently (and better imo) from traditional fighters. I just assumed that was the source of your confusion. Here is a compendium of links to frame data threads.

The way you organize our frame data is also incredible compared to the way many others even on this forum do things. Like, you give the exact frames of super armor, windboxes, intangibility... then I go to the Sheik boards and half her data is missing. You've done a great job for us, Big O. Know that we certainly appreciate it.

 

[adom4]

BIG discovery. While labbing today, I just found out that if Villager misses the tech on Flame Choke, he, just like Olimar, is vulnerable to Dark Fists as a followup.

IT KILLS HIM AT 40.

Considering Villager is a high profile character in the Customs Legal game because of his Balloons and Timber Counter, this is a HUGE breakthrough. An AMAZING boon in a matchup we've classically struggled with.

Are you completely sure about that?
It could be huge, did you test it on a non CPU villager?

 

[JmacAttack]

Are you completely sure about that?
It could be huge, did you test it on a non CPU villager?

I don't have a person to test with me, so I have not. However, in my experience, Level 9 CPUs always either tech it, or act the exact frame they can get up out of a Flame Choke, so Level 9 CPUs are a reliable means of testing choke followups. If the CPU didn't tech it, it could never once escape my Dark Fists. Never. I got 15 in a row.

For reference, this doesn't work on Sheik CPUs or Falcon CPUs because we don't get any followups on them. However, it works on Olimars and Villagers 100% of the time, even if they buffered a getup attack.

EDIT: False alarm. Turns out Villager's AI is the only one in the entire game that was never taught how to react to Flame Choke. It doesn't tech them, either.

 

[adom4]

I don't have a person to test with me, so I have not. However, in my experience, Level 9 CPUs always either tech it, or act the exact frame they can get up out of a Flame Choke, so Level 9 CPUs are a reliable means of testing choke followups. If the CPU didn't tech it, it could never once escape my Dark Fists. Never. I got 15 in a row.

Try to test it with actual people (even online), CPU's aren't always reliable for this kind of things, i really hope that it's true though.

 

[JmacAttack]

Try to test it with actual people (even online), CPU's aren't always reliable for this kind of things, i really hope that it's true though.

Just tested it myself using my Wii Gamepad and my big toe to control Villager... sadly, it doesn't work. Turns out Villager's AI was the only one in the entire game that was never taught how to react to Flame Chokes. It doesn't even try to tech them. In other words, it acts like the old 3DS AI did (and still does for Villager) before the update.

Shame. That could have been a big deal.

 

[Blobface]

I made a post in the Book of Sinister Secrets similar to this. You can flame choke villager up onto the Battlefield platforms and read his getup (almost nobody will hit the tech due to the different timing) and land Dark Fists guaranteed provided you read correctly. It's especially effective since it takes them so far up into the air before the strong hit of Dark Fists actually lands.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

2223 and 2221 are sets that make Ganon an even bigger terror at high percents. Warlock Blade is preferred over Warlock Punch by a huge amount of people (I personally use 1223 and 1221), and Flame Wave plus Dark Fists give Ganon even more mental pressure over the opponent since you now have two more kill moves, both of which are super strong.
People sometimes dismiss Flame Wave because of its low range compared to the other two, but the reward on hit is more than enough to warrant further consideration. Having an unblockable, untechable kill move is very valuable for a character like Ganon.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

2223 and 2221 are sets that make Ganon an even bigger terror at high percents. Warlock Blade is preferred over Warlock Punch by a huge amount of people (I personally use 1223 and 1221), and Flame Wave plus Dark Fists give Ganon even more mental pressure over the opponent since you now have two more kill moves, both of which are super strong.
People sometimes dismiss Flame Wave because of its low range compared to the other two, but the reward on hit is more than enough to warrant further consideration. Having an unblockable, untechable kill move is very valuable for a character like Ganon.

Flame Wave is pretty useful as long as you know how to properly use it in a game. If you take a look at the EVO Custom Moveset Project, there is a set that include Flame Wave, 2222. And in my opinion, Ganon's best sets are 2X22, because you can't ignore how useful Dropkick is to Ganon's otherwise subpar recovery.

 

[jmanup85]

All I know is that against the Villager I almost always use the flame chain. Choke can't beat out his nair or anything and a smart Villager will use that often to cross up and go after you off stage. You just can't kill him by ganoncide if he knows what he's doing, flame chain beats out nair I believe so I use that.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

Flame Wave is pretty useful as long as you know how to properly use it in a game. If you take a look at the EVO Custom Moveset Project, there is a set that include Flame Wave, 2222. And in my opinion, Ganon's best sets are 2X22, because you can't ignore how useful Dropkick is to Ganon's otherwise subpar recovery.

Dropkick is custom down b 2? I always get the order messed up.
Then yeah, 2222 and 1222 are great sets.

 

[Blobface]

Eh, don't overestimate Dropkick too much. It's a great custom, but you give up one of Ganondorf's best grounded punishes (Wizards Dropkick is 4 frames more startup), and it misses a lot of short characters. But most importantly, you lose aerial wizards foot, which kills at stupidly early %'s and is an excellent anti-juggle tool. On top of that, Dark Fists is usually enough to get past most character's edgeguarding, so the recovery buff is usually unnecessary.

With that said Dropkick is an absolute necessity in some matchups. Rosa and Sheik get so much easier when they lose pretty much all of their gimping ability because of Dropkick + Fists. Dropkick is overall very matchup dependent.

All I know is that against the Villager I almost always use the flame chain. Choke can't beat out his nair or anything and a smart Villager will use that often to cross up and go after you off stage. You just can't kill him by ganoncide if he knows what he's doing, flame chain beats out nair I believe so I use that.

I wouldn't recommend trying to beat out Villager's N-air with Flame Choke or any variant. U-air and N-air will easily beat it out, and Flame Choke gives amazing reward against Villager.

2223 and 2221 are sets that make Ganon an even bigger terror at high percents. Warlock Blade is preferred over Warlock Punch by a huge amount of people (I personally use 1223 and 1221), and Flame Wave plus Dark Fists give Ganon even more mental pressure over the opponent since you now have two more kill moves, both of which are super strong.
People sometimes dismiss Flame Wave because of its low range compared to the other two, but the reward on hit is more than enough to warrant further consideration. Having an unblockable, untechable kill move is very valuable for a character like Ganon.

Flame Wave is an excellent move, but it's issue is that it replaces Flame Choke. It's really that simple. If any other Character could have Flame Wave, they'd take it. If Ganon could take it without losing Flame Choke, he'd take it. But the sheer amount of comboing and shield pressure you lose by not taking Flame Choke just isn't worth it. It also doesn't help that in the two matchups where Flame Choke shouldn't be used (Rosa and maybe Sheik), Flame Chain is usually better.

Oh man I just thought of a world where Ganon can have Flame Wave as his neutral B and Flame Choke is his side B. Can you imagine the kind of stuff Ganon could pull? Flame Choke, Flame choke their away tech, Flame Wave their inward tech, you just did 40 damage.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

Flame Wave is an excellent move, but it's issue is that it replaces Flame Choke. It's really that simple. If any other Character could have Flame Wave, they'd take it. If Ganon could take it without losing Flame Choke, he'd take it. But the sheer amount of comboing and shield pressure you lose by not taking Flame Choke just isn't worth it. It also doesn't help that in the two matchups where Flame Choke shouldn't be used (Rosa and maybe Sheik), Flame Chain is usually better.

I see where you're getting at and I completely agree. The sheer fact that getting Flame Choked puts you at an advantage should you read their tech or getup attack is game changing and, most importantly, game winning. The fear factor alone makes this move godlike.

But the reason I feel like Flame Wave should be used more often is because its reward on hit is way more consistent. I can't tell you how many times people have instantly teched Flame Choke and gotten away, or rolled in the direction opposite of where I read they'd be.
Despite its lackluster range, having a consistent, unblockable, untechable grab that kills early-ish is very good for Ganon. And, since it puts them in the air, you can catch landings or apply pressure.
I just think that having a much more consistent kill option could make Ganon a lot scarier than he already is.

 

[Z1GMA]

If only we were able to put Flame Wave at nB instead of Warlock Punch

 

[Daeyrat]

If only Warlock Thrust was reliable...
It could be alright (and cool) if instead of a Dark Burst, it was an Eletric Discharge (similar to his projectiles in Ocarina of Time) and it paralyzed the enemy briefly.
Faster recovery would help too.

 

[Blobface]

If only we were able to put Flame Wave at nB instead of Warlock Punch

Having two vastly different command grabs would be amazing. You could Flame Choke, read an inward tech, and Flame Wave.

Side note, Wave kills at hilarious %'s with rage. Like, below 60%.

 

[Z1GMA]

Just wanna pop in to say that Warlock Burst is kinda useful combined with WDK, since it let's you change direction much faster than WP and Blade after you've been reverse-launched and need to recover using WDK.

 

[Zeriora]

I just like 1233

The normal warlock punch is powerful enough for me. I just usually trick my opponent into a reverse warlock punch, getting a free kill at as low as 30%
The Chain Side B I love, it's not that laggy, the hits will connect, unlike the default one can be teched from, but some characters it cant be teched from.
The Dark Fists Up B kills extremely early, i've tested it on bowser, it kills at 90%. It doesn't grab but, a grab isn't needed.
Now, you all must be thinking Im extremely stupid for having wizard assault here. It doesn't kill, It doesn't float. So what's good about it? It goes much faster and further than the original one. It has small lag. It knocks them back.

 

[Zeriora]

I seem to be the only person who likes, and uses, the Wizard's Assault. Sure, it has longer start-up, and goes straight down in the air, but that long range and speed makes up for it (at least I feel that way). When people are trying to roll away from me when we're close, having the Assault helps a lot, as I can quickly and easily catch up with them. I don't know, I just really like it. It also seem to surprise my brothers and friends online as it has slightly longer start up but faster speed and longer range, something they don't expect. It also sends the opponents backwards which I feel is good, simply because you then have more time to recover without getting punished (since, y'know, you're sending them away behind you while you're still launching forward). It's also worth mentioning that it doesn't slow down when hitting, so it's more difficult to punish if someone shields it.

As for the other specials, I have mixed feelings.

Dark Vault is one I like, simply because of it's increased height and it's fast animation when it hits. Reminds me of Ganon's Melee and PM recovery :') Though I most of the time find myself using either the standard one, since it can grab and punch, or the Dark Fists because of it's power.

I also feel Flame Wave is really underrated. Sure, it has a lot shorter range and more ending lag, but hitting will deal a MASSIVE blow. The knockback is surprisingly good. If you're a good reader, I think this one is really good.

As for the punches, I mix 'em all up. The standard one because of it's damage and armor, the Blade because of it's range (and epicness), and the Thrust because of, well, the speed, and it is surprisingly satisfying to hit with

Your not the only one that uses it, I find it extremety useful too. It's a good approach option, its good for racking up damage.

 

[WwwWario]

Also, it kinda does and doesn't have anything to do with Customs, but I wish Ganon's standard Up B was stronger. Maybe not as strong as Falcon's, but in the middle of FD, you need like 200+% to kill with the grab of the move. It has so little knockback, yet it looks so powerful. The move feels so satisfying to hit with, as you electroshock them and pull off an explosion. I for one wish it had more kill power, and same goes with the 3rd Up B (the longer one that doesn't punch and isn't as powerful).

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

You know, I watched the recent Xanadu and I think @ Z1GMA has a point about Warlock Burst. Dunnobro looks like he really could have used a decent way to turn around against those b-throws from Sonic.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Any word on the community's opinion of standard b 3? It's the only move I have left to unlock for ganondorf on 3ds and it's either hidden in a challenge or just really stubborn.

 

[TinDust]

I like 3122, I think it's the best custom for Ganon. Even though warlock blade has more range, it is still as rare as Warlock Punch when it comes to actually connecting. The thrid custom B move (forget its name) comes out quickly, has a huge hitbox and can hit opponents above him on BF platforms. It is also useful for edgeguarding, since you can cover the whole ledge if you time it correctly. It actually comes out fast enough to have many uses, so 3122 is the best for me.

 

[LozNerd]

I like 2/?/2/2 Do you guys like Flame Wave or Flame Chain better? Flame Wave is slow but deals a ton of damage and has great kill power. With Flame Chain you can build up damage well with it speed but has no kill power and eliminates Ganoncide. Thoughts?