Ganondorf's Top 8 Custom Movesets

[DunnoBro]

And the combo situation you cited will almost certainly not happen out of D-throw against someone who knows the matchup, and you're usually gambling that you catch them at long range with the move in order to get a combo. Good against Rosalina and Sheik maybe, but most other matchups it probably shouldn't happen very often.

Someone won't get grabbed in a matchup?
Someone won't roll, land, air dodge, throw out a projectile or other dedicated horizontal motion?

Okay. Thanks for the insight.

All of those recoveries are basically from top tier characters who have a CRAPTON of air mobility options. You overestimate Luigi's recovery though (except in customs where he gets buffs). Ganon's recovery is fine in most matchups especially with Dark Fists, and if you're denying that, you don't know all your options.

Read the edit, my friend.

And I also never said his recovery "wasn't fine" It's just that pretty much everyone's recovery is "fine" in this game. Ganon included, however he is so very far from the shining example of that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Someone won't get grabbed in a matchup?
Someone won't roll, land, air dodge, throw out a projectile or other dedicated horizontal motion?

Okay. Thanks for the insight.



Read the edit, my friend.

Default punishes the VAST majority of the mentioned cases better than Dropkick for greater reward and requires less prediction when a lot more of those cases can be done on reaction due to the superior startup and coverage of default. The only time Dropkick does better is either against tall characters or projectile zoning that is hard to powershield. The fact default is a superior consistent punish gives Ganondorf more control over his opponent's options, which in most matchups, lets him play his pressure game more effectively when his opponent does not have as much time to reactively defend against default and must respect it.

Olimar's recovery is only safe either if he has like two Purples or in a custom environment if he's running the custom Pikmin toss. Can does help Duck Hunt's recovery yes, but if it's avoided (such as by grabbing the ledge or contesting it with certain attacks) he has virtually nothing else to stop himself from getting edgeguarded against most characters. Ganon overall does better avoiding edgeguards and KO options than these characters with his strong aerials for protecting him from low edgeguards when he maximizes the efficiency of the other available options he has to recover. Then the only real remaining flaw is teching his Up-B if he does not do it backwards, but Dark Fists solves that and also gives him a lot of armor frames which actually makes Ganondorf nearly impossible to gimp except in like 2-3 matchups if he has decent reaction time and DIs correctly.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I can confirm that Wizkick is indeed significantly less likely to be blocked consistently on reaction, especially if playing online. Right now I do have significant issues with gimps when running Wizkick over Dropkick against good edgeguarders, though I usually run Dropkick over Wizkick with customs on, so if I can find ways to recover consistently with Dark Fists + Wizkick I'll probably wind up going Wizkick as its mixup potential is much better while Dropkick is basically only good as a punish onstage. If not I'll have to go Dropkick, as I'm just dying too frequently to gimps against the better players I'm facing. While Ganon does indeed have good aerials, offstage is the one place it isn't in his favor to trade with them, as his recovery distance is fairly limited, and he can't afford to get knocked back very far while offstage.
Dropkick is also definitely preferred over Wizkick in doubles, as the chaotic environment means you won't always be able to DI surprise hits correctly, which is a must given Ganon's limited recovery distance. Stupid deaths due solely to improper DI don't really happen to me anymore in singles as I've gotten better and more consistent in that respect, but they're still a factor in doubles and kill Ganon's otherwise great stock tanking potential. The need for Wizkick as a way to get in isn't really felt, and a good Ganon teammate like MK can cover your vulnerability to juggles.

 

[JmacAttack]

I don't think Ganon has any reliable aerials that he can do out of down throw...you migh be able to get nair or up-air at very low percents but after that dropkick is your best bet.

Fair works against most characters till mid percent, and it works on some all the way to kill percent depending on DI (including Sheik).

 

[Daeyrat]

Ganon's positioning after a dropkick is waaay better than when he lands a wizkick too.
Wizkick jumps over projectiles.
Doesn't slow down... even when it hits.
Helps recovery immensely.
Allows him to move faster and reach the opponent faster.

The only advantage of default, for me, is its power when used in the air. But it's not that easy to land if the enemy respects it.

 

[Uffe]

If this discussion is still being talked about, I'd say that following is good:

1. 2. Warlock Blade - The range on this is deceptive, and the tip of the blade deals the most damage. Reversed and connected, this could be very deadly. It may even be good as an edge guard.
2. 3. Flame Chain - Flame Choke is slow, and this particular attack does not only multiple hits, but also drives through shields.
3. 1. Dark Dive - I haven't tested the other two. I think this one is the safest option, but I'm probably wrong.
4. 2. Wizard's Dropkick - As a recovery tool, it goes horizontally, so being above the stage, this could be especially useful since his Up B goes mostly vertically. You can also jump over projectile and land a hit.

 

[adom4]

If this discussion is still being talked about, I'd say that following is good:

1. 2. Warlock Blade - The range on this is deceptive, and the tip of the blade deals the most damage. Reversed and connected, this could be very deadly. It may even be good as an edge guard.
2. 3. Flame Chain - Flame Choke is slow, and this particular attack does not only multiple hits, but also drives through shields.
3. 1. Dark Dive - I haven't tested the other two. I think this one is the safest option, but I'm probably wrong.
4. 2. Wizard's Dropkick - As a recovery tool, it goes horizontally, so being above the stage, this could be especially useful since his Up B goes mostly vertically. You can also jump over projectile and land a hit.

2. While flame chain is a good move the set ups from flame chokes are super important, i usually only pick flame chain in specific match ups.
3. Dark fists is the best out of the up Bs, there's no reason to use the other 2.
4. Dropkick vs default depends on the matchups, in some you need dropkick for recovering & against projectiles, otherwise default is probably better due to the danger of air wizkick & the fact that it can hit shorter characters more reliably on the ground.

 

[Uffe]

2. While flame chain is a good move the set ups from flame chokes are super important, i usually only pick flame chain in specific match ups.
3. Dark fists is the best out of the up Bs, there's no reason to use the other 2.
4. Dropkick vs default depends on the matchups, in some you need dropkick for recovering & against projectiles, otherwise default is probably better due to the danger of air wizkick & the fact that it can hit shorter characters more reliably on the ground.

Ah well. I just put in my input because I felt I did better with Gdorf using those customs compared to his defaults. Personal preference, I guess.

 

[Karsticles]

I like going 1122.

I know lots of folks like the sword for neutral B, but none of these moves are ever going to hit. Default is my preferred choice because it is the best in the very few situations you want to use neutral B, like broken shields and a missed Rest.

I like Flame Choke and Flame Chain, and I can see them both being matchup dependent. However, Dorf has no way to make shielders afraid without Flame Choke. His normal grab is possibly the worst in the game. Against defensive players, I think it is necessary. Flame Chain is better against sloppy players, though.

Dark Fists is clearly the best choice. Get an armored kill move in exchange for it not being a grab? Great trade. Custom 3 goes high, but the gap in attacks makes Dorf easy to gimp. Dark Fists makes him hard to gimp, so it is the best choice.

Obviously, Dropkick > Default. It goes over projectiles, and can punish so many things that your opponent will have to play footsies with you. It helps positioning and recovering, as well. Default clanks with most projectiles. It is really only good for punishing rolls and getting a few LOs against ovezealous opponents.

 

[DunnoBro]

Hmm, that 0-death set-up seeming more and more viable. I got it every time I used ganon in jed05's custom tournament, once in pools, once in semis, and once in grands. Granted I only did it right in pools... Never had to do it in lag or under pressure before. The rest of the tournament I went DHD to practice with zigzag, but it's just impossible to use it in wifi. You can't time the shots at all.

I think I'll work on it more and get the inputs ingrained into me. I've noticed campers gravitate towards the ledges, this means dropkick is even more potent against projectiles. It's free stocks early on.

I also got a flame chain ganoncide lol Not actually that hard since dropkick sets up for it offstage...

 

[PhantomTriforce]

I know lots of folks like the sword for neutral B, but none of these moves are ever going to hit. Default is my preferred choice because it is the best in the very few situations you want to use neutral B, like broken shields and a missed Rest.

Consider this: in the case of a broken shield or missed rest, an up tilt or fully charged f smash will do the trick 99% of the time. But I've found out that Warlock Blade can be used near the ledge when an opponent is off stage. Because of it's reach, there's a chance that it could actually connect. And the probability that it get's punished is low because it is pretty quick and the opponent has to get back on stage.

 

[Opana]

Blade is high risk high reward, thrust is low reward high risk.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Consider this: in the case of a broken shield or missed rest, an up tilt or fully charged f smash will do the trick 99% of the time.

Not arguing in favour of any custom move, but Reverse Warlock Punch kills much faster than Volcano Kick or a fully charged fsmash.

All characters will die below 40%, and this is including the heaviest characters (most die below 30%).

Although shield break and a missed rest are uncommon, Ganon had one of the best tools for breaking shields, having a move that kills that early may change the outcome of the game than using the other two choices.

On a flat stage and in a two or three stock match if you're both at your last stocks or if you're a stock ahead, a walk to the edge (moving your opponent) ganoncide can also to the trick.

Even though I said all that, Warlock Thrust or Blade would be wiser choices.

 

[Teshie U]

I can never see a situation where I might hit someone with Warlock Blade. Its still pretty dang slow.

I feel like warlock thrust might be the best one, simply because you can quickly use it to turn yourself around when you have been backthrown. Then you can actually get some mileage out of dropkick.

As you said, you could just move someone closer to the edge for an easy kill anyway. How much earlier does Warlock Punch kill than Fsmash/Uptilt/Upsmash?


I don't frequent this board, but could someone direct me towards the frame data for dark fists if there is any?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Ganondorf:

2, 1/3, 2, 1/2 niche XX3X, X2XX, 3XXX, 1XXX

2121, 2122, 2321, 2322
niche: 2132, 2332, 2221, 2222, 3122, 1122

As Ganon discussion progressed, it became clear to me that the first four sets were by far the most valued. The 2132 and 2332 sets from the initial release seem like logical sets to retain, Flame Wave is the most requested thing to get some sets itself that doesn't have them already, and that leaves two more slots. I'm honestly seeing about equal support for both neutral variants and not much support at all for anything else so giving each a set with fists/dropkick seemed like the most logical way to spend the bottom two sets in a way that some Ganons out there might actually pick in tournament. If you guys would prefer a different direction, please let us know.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Working around with customs.

In a general setting, I'll now prefer Dark Dive (Dark fists is too slow, and although it has strength, & setups, the slow speed is not worth it) flame choke (chain and wave, like dark fists, are too slow which nulls the moves in general) warlock blade (super armour, a bit faster than normal punch, and can be used to 'poke' or 'bait' opponents, the move also has great kill power) and wizards drop kick (this move is very good with flame choke, also helps Ganon recover and become a much faster character overall).

 

[adom4]

Working around with customs.

In a general setting, I'll now prefer Dark Dive (Dark fists is too slow, and although it has strength, & setups, the slow speed is not worth it) flame choke (chain and wave, like dark fists, are too slow which nulls the moves in general) warlock blade (super armour, a bit faster than normal punch, and can be used to 'poke' or 'bait' opponents, the move also has great kill power) and wizards drop kick (this move is very good with flame choke, also helps Ganon recover and become a much faster character overall).

I always try to find a use for flame wave but it's way too hard to land to be worth it.
I disagree about dark fists, the super armor in the beggining can save your life sometimes (while it didn't happen against you a lot of times i was saved due to the super armor kicking in).
Chain i only see being useful against Rosa, it's not even that bad it's just that choke is so important it's hard giving that up.

 

[Opana]

I'm starting to prefer DD too, it has the most flexible recovery of the three while still keeping the uppercut that I love. I use the uppercut more to chase people near the top blast zone depending on the mu, and DF is too slow for this. On top of that, the starting hit of DF doesn't connect with proper DI, as far as I know anyway.

I propose we have a 2112 set, as I also find this set preferable.

I think Blade can be used to cover landing options well, whether that be for the massive range, shield breaking properties, or KO power.

 

[freezy]

Does no one here like Warlock Thrust? I don't like the default or the sword as much because they come out slow, while Warlock Thrust is fast, and the hitbox created in front of Ganon with Warlock Thrust is larger and goes up and down a bit, while defauts and sword are more horizontally in front of Ganon. I think Warlock Thrust may therefore be good for edgeguards, because it covers a larger (vertical) area in front of the edge.
Also because it's so fast and has a good hitbox it is a good tool for baiting. Only downside is the weak strength. But for broken shields and stuff you have up tilt anyway.

So of the 10 sets I would like to see 3 with Warlock Thrust: 3112, 3122, 3312

 

[Ray_Kalm]

As the meta game goes forward, we will see 3112 as the most preferred choice.

 

[A2ZOMG]

As the meta game goes forward, we will see 3112 as the most preferred choice.

Wait, you're actually serious?

All of Ganon's neutral Bs are competitively pretty near-useless. Warlock Thrust is still pretty slow at 40 frames, and if you don't sweetspot it, it only does 9 damage, and it has ridiculous ending lag. Warlock Blade at least can be used somewhat like U-tilt, except for covering landings rather than ledge pressure (the hitbox actually lingers for a bit too). You are likely to kill someone very early if they either get hit by Warlock Blade, or if you break their shield with it, and they have to respect the armor frames before trying to punish, which again lets you actually cover a lot of landing options sometimes.

I agree WDK has moderately unique synergy with Flame Choke due to covering long range while Flame Choke covers mid range. However as you have stated in the past, WDK is less rewarding, it is often worse for getting out of juggles, and the default's ability to cover grounded options in mid-long range is often overall more valuable.

 

[Vermanubis]

Agreed with A2. Any time you can find an application for one of the neutral Bs, there's always an better option with one exception: shield breaks, in which case, warlock punch just can't be beat. As for WDK, I feel it's a novelty move. The reward is so low, especially the aerial one. Some argue that it's good for recovering, but its trajectory dictates that you have to be up pretty damn high for it to find utility, in which case, if you're knocked up, recovering was probably never an issue in the first place. The only custom move I legitimately see being a plus for Ganon is darkfists, and that's still up for debate because its start-up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think while it's easier to use default Up-B because of it's faster travel time, once we get accustomed to the animation of Dark Fists, it will be the better option esp since it cannot be teched the same way as default. The armor frames are VERY competitively abusable at 5 frame startup. We just need to learn how to time it offstage.

While I agree default Warlock Punch can be used competitively for the reason you stated Verm, Warlock Blade in contrast itself is a shield break move with massive range. I think the move is viable in singles, even if just barely so.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I agree with your second paragraph entirely.

As for Thrust vs Blade, this game is speed based. The faster moves are usually the better moves.

Ganon gets an insane amount speedier with WDK and its cancels. I'd prefer chain over choke if chain started at the same speed as choke.

Thrust is weak with knockback, and okay damage, but the move is definitely more viable than blade. We cannot rely on a move to 'be used like utilt'. It looks like a good move, but in actual play it will barely be seen hitting, especially with customs essentially increasing game battle speed. Thrust at least has an explosion like hitbox, can hit platforms and very far ahead, this move will be a lot more viable than the other two.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There is one matchup where I believe default Up-B is potentially superior. That's DDD, because you can Up-B him out of his armored Up-B which is actually very useful especially since DDD's Up-B is much weaker horizontally than it is vertically.

However, in a speed based game, being able to actively react to edgeguards with Dark Fists very fast armor frames is important. And especially since your opponent will not be punishing you with a stage tech, that makes Dark Fists superior as a recovery move once we learn how to compensate for the slightly delayed travel time. Furthermore Dark Fists can be gamechanging as a punish to rushdown when the armor frames can let you for instance block a Sheik F-air and kill her very early.

I might be able to agree with Thrust having minor platform utility, but on more flat stages, I don't think there should be a question that Warlock Blade has more applications. For expecting your opponent to do similar things (you will only land either move if your opponent makes a commitment of some sort in the air), you do more damage or break shields, while Warlock Thrust is very bad on shields.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Actually the probability of landing blade even on a flat stage is far less than Thrust.

Thrust covering platforms means that it covers a huge area in front and around the front of Ganon's punching hand -- think of an invisible platform so to speak. If you want a surprise move that's actually safe to tease with and is actually a better option than many other moves Ganon can do at a certain time, Thrust is that move. It's like Bowsers/Charizards flamethrower, but more like a 'flame' explosion but very very laggy, It could somewhat be considered a projectile.

As for Dark Fists.. I agree that up b can be interchanged with matchups like down b.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can also surprise people with Warlock Blade with the armor frames on the ground, which makes it better for covering your opponent's options for spacing and zoning. And because of the armor frames and ability to break shields very easily, this actually can make it a lot safer than you'd expect when your opponent has to be very careful in how they avoid it.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I feel like warlock thrust might be the best one, simply because you can quickly use it to turn yourself around when you have been backthrown. Then you can actually get some mileage out of dropkick.

You're actually going somewhere with this Teshie. With WDK and it's incredible recovering tools, thrust in the air can add yet another mix up - kind of like a laggy Fox Melee shine. Something the other two can't do.

 

[Blobface]

The biggest factor in custom choice should be less about the overall usefulness and more how it applies to any given matchup, particularly our matchups against Villager, Rosa, Sheik, and ZSS. For instance, I'd suggest:

Villager: 2121
Warlock blade is a bit iffy, but how helpful it is against Villagers slingshot shenanigans should be tested. Ganon gets a lot of reward for landing a choke on Villager, and having a command grab is excellent. Dark Fists is crucial for armoring through bowling balls. Wizards foot is just too important as a punishing tool to give up.

Rosa: x322
I have no idea what neutral special to put here. Luma screws up normal choke and flame wave, so chain is likely the best. Dark fists and Dropkick are crucial for avoiding gimps, and Dark fists is just plain scary for a floaty character like Rosa.

Sheik: x32x
Flame choke isn't very rewarding on sheik, and dark fists can help with her gimps. Between Foot and Dropkick, I'm not sure if punishment or recovery is more important.

ZSS: 1121
ZSS has fast falling speed and some fairly laggy attacks, so I'd say take Warlock Punch to make her afraid of shield breaks. Flame choke has decent reward on her. Dark fists is good against gimps. Foot is important for punishes.

 

[Big O]

In my opinion all three punch variants suck, but they all have some random niche situation in which they become useful. That said, I believe the most commonly useful one is WT because you really have to be like asleep to get hit by the other two in any real scenario. Maybe you can WP Flare Blitz on reaction or get a shield break below 30% and it's not the last stock (in which case you'd aeruodo ftw). Maybe you can pull off a successful random landing/ledge trap with WB or catch someone offguard with it's range/shieldbreak once. However, 60+ frames of startup prevents them from actually being usable 99% of the time against someone who knows what to look out for and what they are doing. While they are largely unusable, they can still be very useful in those fringe scenarios. WT has a significant edge on them in terms of usability, but in general isn't very useful. In general I feel that is more important to have a weak but usable option than a once in a blue moon optimized punish.

I think that while Dark Dive is maybe slightly under-appreciated, Dark Fists is just... way better. DD's grab is useful against SA recoveries like D3 or Kong Cyclone and maybe OoS against an unsafe crossup aerial, but outside of that I'm not sure why I'd even concider DD. Even as a recovery DF feels superior because of the SA to protect you, the massive KO potential should they mess up, and that it feels much trickier to edge guard. The delayed upward lunge is deceptively fast and it feels like it can recover from slightly farther out than DD. All I can say is that against someone like CF, DD felt like it was free while DF did not. Against the heavy fast fallers (D3, CF etc.), it doesn't combo properly without rage, but that's not really a big deal. With even like 60%, it becomes doable so I don't really see it as a problem since it is a lot better overall anyway. It also has less landing lag should RCO lag come into play (grabbing someone or getting hit out of it forces you to consider this).

I'll never understand why WF gets so much love (except in the air where it is pretty good). On the ground I feel like it shouldn't be used unless you edge cancel it or read a tech roll. Outside of those two situations, why would I want to WF over DA or Flame Choke? DA is safer, faster, grabs items, and can lead into big damage with the sourspot at times. Flame Choke is way better reward, doesn't care about shield, has less lag, and can also be edge canceled. At the distance where they might dodge FC before you get to them and WF is a tad quicker than DA, WDK is way safer than WF. It trades 3 damage and 4 startup frames for a more horizontal launch angle, an immensely useful trajectory for zone breaking, not slowing down on hit/block, significantly less lag, and the ability to go through projectiles after clanking instead of freezing in lag. The fact that edge canceling it is more strict with where you can start the kick is not bad when you factor in that it also is more consistent due to not slowing down on hit/block. The only time I ever miss WF is when I'm in the air against someone who doesn't respect it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In my opinion all three punch variants suck, but they all have some random niche situation in which they become useful. That said, I believe the most commonly useful one is WT because you really have to be like asleep to get hit by the other two in any real scenario. Maybe you can WP Flare Blitz on reaction or get a shield break below 30% and it's not the last stock (in which case you'd aeruodo ftw). Maybe you can pull off a successful random landing/ledge trap with WB or catch someone offguard with it's range/shieldbreak once. However, 60+ frames of startup prevents them from actually being usable 99% of the time against someone who knows what to look out for and what they are doing. While they are largely unusable, they can still be very useful in those fringe scenarios. WT has a significant edge on them in terms of usability, but in general isn't very useful. In general I feel that is more important to have a weak but usable option than a once in a blue moon optimized punish.

I think that while Dark Dive is maybe slightly under-appreciated, Dark Fists is just... way better. DD's grab is useful against SA recoveries like D3 or Kong Cyclone and maybe OoS against an unsafe crossup aerial, but outside of that I'm not sure why I'd even concider DD. Even as a recovery DF feels superior because of the SA to protect you, the massive KO potential should they mess up, and that it feels much trickier to edge guard. The delayed upward lunge is deceptively fast and it feels like it can recover from slightly farther out than DD. All I can say is that against someone like CF, DD felt like it was free while DF did not. Against the heavy fast fallers (D3, CF etc.), it doesn't combo properly without rage, but that's not really a big deal. With even like 60%, it becomes doable so I don't really see it as a problem since it is a lot better overall anyway. It also has less landing lag should RCO lag come into play (grabbing someone or getting hit out of it forces you to consider this).

I'll never understand why WF gets so much love (except in the air where it is pretty good). On the ground I feel like it shouldn't be used unless you edge cancel it or read a tech roll. Outside of those two situations, why would I want to WF over DA or Flame Choke? DA is safer, faster, grabs items, and can lead into big damage with the sourspot at times. Flame Choke is way better reward, doesn't care about shield, has less lag, and can also be edge canceled. At the distance where they might dodge FC before you get to them and WF is a tad quicker than DA, WDK is way safer than WF. It trades 3 damage and 4 startup frames for a more horizontal launch angle, an immensely useful trajectory for zone breaking, not slowing down on hit/block, significantly less lag, and the ability to go through projectiles after clanking instead of freezing in lag. The fact that edge canceling it is more strict with where you can start the kick is not bad when you factor in that it also is more consistent due to not slowing down on hit/block. The only time I ever miss WF is when I'm in the air against someone who doesn't respect it.

Default Wizkick unlike DA, Flame Choke, and WDK generally speaking covers dodges better, and in terms of being a ranged punish, it reaches certain options in midrange faster than any of those moves. For instance there are situations where it's quite viable to reactively punish rolls with Wizkick, while you actually can't do this as often with Dropkick (you more explicitly have to read the roll), and while you generally prefer to punish away rolls with DA, it doesn't have quite as much range as Wizkick and also won't catch them if they spotdodge.

Don't get me wrong, individually WDK, Flame Choke, and DA all can cover certain options effectively. What nails default Wizkick as a strong move is being able to cover many of those options simultaneously while also having specific advantages at longer midrange due to its speed. WDK imo is only really better than default Wizkick at long range (vs projectiles mostly) except against tall characters who can't easily duck under it, but the slower startup of WDK is a noticeable disadvantage for forcing respect in neutral.

The lower ending lag on WDK imo really only helps it in followup situations on stage it's actually worse for followups when edgeguarding where it has more ending lag and the angle of the hit typically leaves you out of range to set up traps). In neutral, I don't think WDK is very difficult to powershield if you're simply waiting in mid-long range, and closer there is the risk of if whiffing in close range which can sometimes leave you in an awkward position.

WDK I primarily would use against Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic, and most of the fat heavy characters where either getting around horizontal projectile zoning or recovery is a very big deal. Most other matchups I am pretty sure default's utility in juggles and covering midrange is generally more useful.

 

[Big O]

Default Wizkick unlike DA, Flame Choke, and WDK generally speaking covers dodges better, and in terms of being a ranged punish, it reaches certain options in midrange faster than any of those moves. For instance there are situations where it's quite viable to reactively punish rolls with Wizkick, while you actually can't do this as often with Dropkick (you more explicitly have to read the roll), and while you generally prefer to punish away rolls with DA, it doesn't have quite as much range as Wizkick and also won't catch them if they spotdodge.

Don't get me wrong, individually WDK, Flame Choke, and DA all can cover certain options effectively. What nails default Wizkick as a strong move is being able to cover many of those options simultaneously while also having specific advantages at longer midrange due to its speed. WDK imo is only really better than default Wizkick at long range (vs projectiles mostly) except against tall characters who can't easily duck under it, but the slower startup of WDK is a noticeable disadvantage for forcing respect in neutral.

The lower ending lag on WDK imo really only helps it in followup situations on stage it's actually worse for followups when edgeguarding where it has more ending lag and the angle of the hit typically leaves you out of range to set up traps). In neutral, I don't think WDK is very difficult to powershield if you're simply waiting in mid-long range, and closer there is the risk of if whiffing in close range which can sometimes leave you in an awkward position.

WDK I primarily would use against Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic, and most of the fat heavy characters where either getting around horizontal projectile zoning or recovery is a very big deal. Most other matchups I am pretty sure default's utility in juggles and covering midrange is generally more useful.

I suppose what I bolded should help clarify my next point. Perhaps a move as massively laggy and punishable as WF shouldn't be used outside of long range. Being at the distance where DA hits later than WF (long range as far as Ganon is concerned) is the only ideal time it should be used. At this same distance WDK doesn't have an issue hitting small characters and does the same thing WF does, but with more safety. At this same distance, I also think it ends up being around the same speed anyway because of time it takes to actually get to them when they aren't next to you. Basically if you are close enough to hit them by frame 16, DA would've hit them frame 10 (+ however long you want to dash) anyway so why does it matter?

I guess my biggest gripe with WF on the ground is that it always feels like I could've replaced it with a better move while the same can't be said for WDK which actually does something distinctly useful. WF's one niche to me is being his longest reaching move, but WDK maintains that and adds things that are useful for moves of that niche to have.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I guess my biggest gripe with WF on the ground is that it always feels like I could've replaced it with a better move while the same can't be said for WDK which actually does something distinctly useful. WF's one niche to me is being his longest reaching move, but WDK maintains that and adds things that are useful for moves of that niche to have.

Default Wizkick's niche is being Ganon's most consistent move for covering roll, spotdodge, and midrange short hops simultaneously. This makes it much stronger when in several matchups, your opponent has to respect this either by sacrificing a massive amount of stage to bait Ganon when Ganon approaches (you can still read this and punish and be more likely to put your opponent offstage as a result) or being forced to specifically shield. 10-12 damage on hit is also not bad, while 7-9 damage for WDK is really low, and WDK is still quite unsafe when powershielded or blocked at long range.

WDK in contrast, while sometimes it's safer on regular block outside of long range, your opponent can put you in an awkward position if you whiff this in closer range. Furthermore Ganondorf has to guess more when covering other midrange defensive options like spotdodge and things just outside of his DA range when running WDK.

 

[JmacAttack]

Just adding that I would like a 1112 set for when I want defaults + drop kick. There are some rare matchups where the kill power of punch and the grab of DD are useful, but could use the recovery of WDK.

2112 for Dedede. He is fat enough for sword to hit and slow enough that it scares away some options.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Dark Dive IS unappreciated. It's an incredibly good move, especially with the new ledge mechanics.

A grab as a recovery option which gives you the chance to recover and move again, and limits what the opponent can do near the ledge, PLUS the uppercut which makes opponents space even further from the ledge.

It's not just that those properties are amazing - they're good just because they are there. Players won't stand near the ledge to be grabbed. And the uppercut doesn't have to be used on an opponent waiting for it -- just quickly recover instead and jump on to the stage.

Dark Dive works wonders with flame choke, wizard drop kick and thrust.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Okay, so what was so simple is now not so simple.

Ganon doesn't really have enough room to enjoy supporting punch variants when it's very clear that the move is extremely marginal regardless. I kinda feel like Warlock Thrust is a niche position versus Blade and that it would be doing Ganon a disservice to limit his important options for the sake of iterating sets across Thrust and Blade. If we include Thrust, it seems like it must be done narrowly.

Now if we want some Dark Dive sets, that's pretty easy since my current proposal kinda throws away the last two sets since it seemed like eight covered everything but punches. X112 seems like the most obvious Dark Dive set; would you want X312 as well? If we stuck with Blade we could go 2112 and 2312 for Dark Dive fans. Alternatively, I would generally believe that the only possible reason to use Dark Dive is for the speed (Dark Fists is just... so good in every other way) so sacrificing most of your power for a bit of speed on neutral special as a pairing with it might make sense and we could fill the last two slots with 3112 and 3312. Even more, if no one wants X312, we could still make slot #10 3122 or 1122 since it's pretty much an extra slot at this point. We could even make slot 9 2112 and then slot 10 3112 because we don't otherwise need slot 10. Does anyone have thoughts on that?

In lieu of any other comments, I'm going to assume that 3112 and 3122 are the most desired options, but we still have several days to talk this over.

 

[freezy]

If the move is extremely marginal anway, it still doesn't hurt to include 2 or 3 sets with Thrust for its fans I'm fine with 3112 and 3122.

 

[JmacAttack]

If you don't think punch options would work, I vote for 2112, 2312, 3122, and 3112. Much as I despise Thrust, if Ray sees potential in it, I won't question his wisdom.

 

[DunnoBro]

Something to consider for dark fist fiends, if you plan on being a dedicated ganondorf main, I'd recommend playing with tap jump on. It makes dark fists a much more reliably OoS option, and you guys don't really use uptilt...

 

[Krysco]

In regards to the neutral B customs I feel the question should be asked of what's more important: a move that has a more distinct use but harder to land or a move that's easier to land but has a less distinct use. Blade does shield damage and has armor and range, giving Ganon a rare chance at a shield break and an odd means of punishing landings while Thrust will be landed more often IF used. Is there any case where Thrust would be used over another move? For platform pressure you have uair and for edge guarding you have pretty much every aerial. All of the neutral Bs are pretty terrible but since we have to have at least one I feel that question should be answered. Or as some have said we can have both and just throw Blade on some sets and Thrust on others.