Ganondorf

[Fire Emblemier]

Maybe improve his final smash to be more like Giga-bowser, with full control, maybe the trident will work like that

 

[LaniusShrike]

It's entirely possible that, instead of using an old design like Twilight Princess or Wind Waker, they'd simply update/approximate Ganondorf to a Skyward Sword appearance. Wouldn't be super hard. I do think Twilight Princess would look more in keeping with Skyward Sword than Wind Waker, though... WW has the greatly exaggerated proportions and flat, bright colors. At least TP and SS both have approximately human proportions.

Besides, if they don't update his appearance to SS, I would think it's pretty likely they'd just use his most recent major appearance- Which, in this case, would actually just be SSBB. I'd be curious to see what he would look like SS style, though.

In regards to Final Smashes, I actually rather like his current one. Quick, powerful, and super effective. Largely because I never really liked the Giga-bowser FS... felt too large and clumsy.

 

[Deleted member]

It's not unheard of. In fact, I like the idea of a magic sword.

I cannot hear or see the words "magic sword" without thinking of the opening to Samurai Jack where Aku narrates.

"But a foolish samurai warrior, wielding a magic sword, stepped forth to oppose!"

 

[Neanderthal]

When you try arguing that C. Falcon using the gun in the comic and not in the games makes using a gun for fighting "unreasonable" (since that's how you responded to my initial point about Falcon in counter to your point about Ganon), then you're saying that non-video game media doesn't matter regardless of whether that it your intentional argument or not.

I didn't say Falcon using a gun was unreasonable. I don't know where you got that from. I think he probably should have a gun.

At one point I thought what you posted was the Anime which was written after SSB so I thought it was irrelevant.
Someone kindly corrected me that this was the comic.

You: "Ganondorf should have a sword because that's how he 'actually' fights."
Me: "C. Falcon should have a gun because that's how he 'actually' fights."
I'd have to say that's pretty relevant to the discussion. It's a counterpoint. Ever heard of one?

I already agreed with you. What more do you want?

It's not a counter point at all. A counter point would disagree with what I'm saying instead of just exemplifying a similar situation that I agree with too.

You're just saying that if G'dorf should have a weapon/magic then maybe Falcon should have a gun too. Agreeeed man.

You fail to get that his in-game fighting is never consistent.
I mean did you even stop to think about this?
OoT: Flies in the air, shoots energy balls at you that you have to reflect back at him. Then goes into Ganon mode with two swords.
WW: Controls a puppet. Then fights you using dual wielding sword style.
TP: Possesses Zelda and shoots energy balls at you that you have to reflect back at him. Then goes into Ganon mode who charges at you like a mad beast. Then goes back into Ganondorf mode hits you with a single sword while on horseback. Then gets off his horse and fights you in a final duel with the single sword.

The only consistency is that there are two fights where he flies in the air and shoots energy balls at you that you have to reflect. Just having a sword in two games is not consistent, especially when you consider that the styles of fighting are completely different and that the only reason he even HAS a sword in TP was because it was used to execute him and it failed (as in, it's not his sword).
And then, OoT's swords don't count, as you want to exclude Ganon mode for some reason in your argument (possibly because that means Ganondorf/Ganon is most prominent with a trident, and you want to argue for him using a sword).

And then, the fact that Ganon and Ganondorf are the same character means that being a pig monster is more consistent than anything else, seeing as the only game with Ganon that there was no pig monster form at all was Wind Waker. But even then, there was an expy of it in Puppet Ganon. So for consistency's sake, we should have a pig Ganon with a trident instead of his humanoid state.

This is some convoluted nonsense.
It doesn't matter that his fighting is inconsistent between his own games.
Ganondorf's moveset is inconsistent with ALL of his games (maybe 1 or 2 insignificant moves aside).

It's very simple. Brawl should represent a characters abilities in their games. Ganondorf's does not.

The Triforce of Power grants its wielder "true power", consisting of near invulnerability, immense strength, and an unlimited source of mystical power.
His strength and magical prowess are often referred to in legend throughout the series when he is mentioned (such as Four Sword Adventures, where Ganondorf doesn't make a physical appearance (only the pig Ganon), yet legends speak of the Guerdo thief Ganondorf.

It's great that you're exercising your mind to try and find justifications as to why he would fight with his fists and feet.
But like I've said countless times, Brawl is supposed to represent a characters abilities from their games. Ganondorf's does not.

But again, I don't know how you make the leap of logic that having strength equates to hand to hand fighting?

Now look who's arguing a straw man.
I never said that it "overruled" anything. In fact, I never said that he shouldn't use a sword. Hell, I'd absolutely love it if he uses a sword like the non-canon one from Melee or a sword like Demise's (to reference how he came to be).
All I've been saying is that Ganondorf fighting hand-to-hand with magic-infused strikes makes sense (and gave examples where he has done things without a weapon) and that he doesn't need a sword to be stripped from the Captain Ganon stigma.
I mean, in most showdowns with Ganon/Ganondorf/Agahnim, there is typically magic involved. And his magic prowess, as said earlier, is part of what defines him within the series. So being a wizard-esque fighter arguably best represents him as a whole.

In that case I don't know why you started this argument.

Personally I don't think the move set makes alot of sense to the character.
They've just given him an existing combat fighters moveset and put smoke around his feet/fists to try and make it seem a little bit relevant to the character.
It's not good enough. No other character has such a mismatching moveset from the way they fight in their games.

Except that it isn't the largest part of his fighting style. And even if you continue to plug your ears to that with the whole "But Ganondorf fought with swords in boss fights the most" thing, that's still TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STYLES; Wind Waker's dual sword style focusing on speed, and Twilight Princess' single sword style focusing on power.
Neither is more prominent than the other; given that they have been used in the same amount of games (1).

I guess you missed the part where I said the sword isn't what I care about. I just want his move set to be derived from his in game moves.

Any of those options would make me happy. I just said sword because it's the most obvious and probably the most likely option for his physical attacks.

I don't recall ever saying it was. Just that it was an example of his strength.

Like I said, I don't see the link between having strength and having a hand to hand combat fighting style.
In his games he has strength as you've pointed out, but uses magic and weapons to fight Link.

There is so much wrong here, I don't know where to begin.
Let's see:
a) There is no "they". It was all Sakurai.
b) Ganondorf was added as a clone of Falcon in Melee not because of a "blank canvas", but because he matched Falcon's body frame and could be squeezed in as a last minute clone like the other 5. The only reason Ganondorf was chosen for this role was because of his popularity. Had that not be the case, someone else would have been added to clone Falcon (or a different character, really) while Ganondorf would not have been in at all.
c) Ganondorf was not a product of "rushing". He wasn't even going to be in Melee at all until Sakurai decided to add some clones to beef up the roster a bit due to EXTRA time after finishing up all the planned characters (i.e. the non-clones).

You have a talent for drama but I agree with everything here. Just kind of nit picking at things that I simplified.

d) Ganondorf wasn't "fixed" in Brawl because Sakurai didn't want to completely alienate those who played as him in Melee. That being said, Smash 4 can easily correct this by adding Black Shadow to take over Ganondorf's cloned moves while Ganondorf gets a new set. That way, Ganondorf can be changed without alienating those who played as him before.

I think you're just speculating as to why Sakurai didn't give him his own moveset and stating it as fact.

Before Brawl came out there were rumors that Sakurai had planned to give him his own moveset in Brawl. We all know that they ran out of time in the end and a number of characters were rushed or left out in the end.
It's just as valid a hypothesis that Ganondorf was one of the victims of this rush.

e) "Established weapon of choice" only applies to Wind Waker. The only reason he has a sword in TP is because it was the sword that failed to execute him.

So using a sword in Twilight doesn't count because the only reason he used it was because it's the sword that failed to execute him?
Okie.

I said he didn't have one in canon until after Melee. It helps to actually read what is being said.
No, swinging a sword in an animation demo did not magically make Ganondorf a swordsman in Zelda canon. (And before you try counterpointing that Falcon doesn't have a gun because he doesn't shoot one outside the comics, notice he has one in a holster on his right leg in every game he appears in.).

Didn't see that you said Canon. No worries.

Zero moves, eh?
Remember when I talked about that rushing palm he used to kill one of the Sages? That was the basis of his Flame Choke.
His Forward Tilt in Brawl, commonly referred to as the "Sparta Kick"? That comes from his boss fight.
And I've read (but not actually seen yet) that if you take too long to break the sword clash in TP, he performs a move that resembles Brawl's version of Warlock Punch, which takes a chunk of health. (Wind Waker also has Ganondorf backhand Zelda in the boss fight, though it's kind of a stretch to compare that to Brawl's Warlock Punch other than both being backhanded strikes)
His elbowing Forward Smash was also used in TP, but without the dark magic Brawl gave it.
So to say none of his moves were seen in some form in the Zelda series is false.

Okay 1 forgettable move from his gameplay and 1 insignificant move from a cut scene
That changes everything...

And just so you don't accuse me of "defending him not using a sword" again, I'm only correcting your statement about how none of his moves come from the games.

I'll agree not to accuse you of "defending him not using a sword" if you agree not to specifically quote me saying something I didn't say.
I accused you of defending his hand to hand combat moveset and I will continue to do so because that's what you are doing.

Except that it has been established that the Triforce of Power grants him immense strength alongside unlimited mystical power and near invulnerability. Seriously. Do your research before you post.

For the fourth time, I don't see why why being strong makes him a hand to hand combat fighter.

 

[bobadz]

I cannot hear or see the words "magic sword" without thinking of the opening to Samurai Jack where Aku narrates.

"But a foolish samurai warrior, wielding a magic sword, stepped forth to oppose!"

"now the fool seeks to return to the past and undo the future that is Aku"

Man, Mako could take what could be cheesey matrial in the wrong hands, a d make it epic.

I miss him.

And I want Ganondorf to at least have unique B moves.

 

[Neanderthal]

To put my two cents into the weapon of choice debate:

I think a single sword has to be considered most likely. Although two swords would be very cool.
The old trident seems pretty unlikely but would make quite unique so I'd be all for it too.

The thing I disagree with is people saying he shouldn't have a single sword because we have too many single sword users.
He would actually be quite different to them.
The reason I say this is, he would only need to use his sword for standard attacks. All of his special moves would showcase his warlock abilities.

This would make him a unique class of fighter that does not exist at this point: A Magic and sword user.
(Hopefully balanced in such a way that you're forced to rely on both facets of his play).

 

[LaniusShrike]

Sure, he could easily still be quite unique with one sword... It's just that he could always be more unique, ha. I don't think the trident is likely at all, however. I feel like a lot of the target audience probably has never even seen Ganon with a trident. Largely, I personally just think no sword seems more badass. As an example, when fighting Ghirahim, is it more intimidating when he blocks Link's attacks with a sword or when he catches it with with his bare hand? Going weapons-free is a lot cooler unless you happen to have a really interesting/awesome device.

In the end, though, I actually (and tragically) think it's most likely that he'll just be a further luigified clone. With a bit more balancing and modification he'll hardly resemble C.Falcon at all, though... Just ditching his Wizard Punch for an energy orb attack would be a huge leap in the right direction alone, so that's all I'm reserving hope for.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You what what I realised yesterday? Melee Ganondorf was from all the Melee clones the one with the most unique moves. Jab, Forward Air and Up Tilt where all unique attack from Captain Falcon. I find it strange they still made Ganondorf so cloney in Brawl after this.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Honestly they should add 2 modes for Ganondorf...
1. Falcondorf - With moves of Cap Falcon as he always had... (Since people know him fighting like this)
2. A brand new moveset where he uses the sword and other unique moves...

 

[Deleted member]

@ManBear: You are just a broken record and continue to use a straw man, so I'm only going to address the part that absolutely NEED to be addressed.

I think you're just speculating as to why Sakurai didn't give him his own moveset and stating it as fact.

Before Brawl came out there were rumors that Sakurai had planned to give him his own moveset in Brawl. We all know that they ran out of time in the end and a number of characters were rushed or left out in the end.
It's just as valid a hypothesis that Ganondorf was one of the victims of this rush.

That rumor is nothing but a rumor, and you are hypocritical to accuse me of using speculation as fact yet do the same thing.
As I have stated repeatedly in the main Roster Discussion thread, Brawl's roster had been "finalized" by July 7, 2005 with the intent to add as much of the conceptual roster as was possible within the allotted time. This was because late additions to the roster would cause issues with a production schedule. This is especially proven with Sonic, the only late addition with early 2007 causing delays.
This is where the "Forbidden 7" with the exception of Dixie come in, as well as Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf. They were lower priority characters (being after R.O.B. in the data), and would be among the first to be cut if time would not allow everyone. Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf survived, the rest were axed.
Characters before them were not "rushed" in any way. Ganondorf is a semi-clone by choice, not by issues with time.

 

[bobadz]

@ManBear: You are just a broken record and continue to use a straw man, so I'm only going to address the part that absolutely NEED to be addressed.

That rumor is nothing but a rumor, and you are hypocritical to accuse me of using speculation as fact yet do the same thing.
As I have stated repeatedly in the main Roster Discussion thread, Brawl's roster had been "finalized" by July 7, 2005 with the intent to add as much of the conceptual roster as was possible within the allotted time. This was because late additions to the roster would cause issues with a production schedule. This is especially proven with Sonic, the only late addition with early 2007 causing delays.
This is where the "Forbidden 7" with the exception of Dixie come in, as well as Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf. They were lower priority characters (being after R.O.B. in the data), and would be among the first to be cut if time would not allow everyone. Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf survived, the rest were axed.
Characters before them were not "rushed" in any way. Ganondorf is a semi-clone by choice, not by issues with time.

Exactly, Ganondorf is likely to still be a Semi Clone in sab4.

 

[FalKoopa]

Exactly, Ganondorf is likely to still be a Semi Clone in sab4.

......

 

[bobadz]

......

Ganondorf was a last minute addition to melee. Sakurai has been quoted as saying he was lucky to have a similar body shape to falcon. The fact that he was still a semi clone in brawl doesn't bode well for him being unique.

 

[FalKoopa]

Yeah. That dojo page which tells us about his taunt where he takes out his sword and puts it back, felt like a slap in the face.

 

[LaniusShrike]

How would people feel if they:
1. Keep Ganondorf as a clone, further luigify while also
2. Making Demise a new character with a sword with another Ganondorf as an alternate costume for him?

In my ideal fantasy dream world where Smash Bros has 90 characters, I would like to see Ganondorf as the slower Falcon clone, a toonish dual-wielding WW Ganondorf, AND a single sword wielding costume for Demise.
Oh, heck, and a trident wielding beast Ganon from... whatever. Any of those Super Nintendo or Gameboy games.

 

[bobadz]

I would be okay with that.

 

[Fastblade5035]

How would people feel if they:
1. Keep Ganondorf as a clone, further luigify while also
2. Making Demise a new character with a sword with another Ganondorf as an alternate costume for him?

In my ideal fantasy dream world where Smash Bros has 90 characters, I would like to see Ganondorf as the slower Falcon clone, a toonish dual-wielding WW Ganondorf, AND a single sword wielding costume for Demise.
Oh, heck, and a trident wielding beast Ganon from... whatever. Any of those Super Nintendo or Gameboy games.

OR, what if Sakurai decided to make a WTF choice and went with THIS Ganon?

He'd be a physical fighter/mage

Oh, and no Demise plz.

 

[FalKoopa]

How would people feel if they:
1. Keep Ganondorf as a clone, further luigify while also
2. Making Demise a new character with a sword with another Ganondorf as an alternate costume for him?

Demise shouldn't get a slot yet. Seriously.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Yea, he does alot of magic moves in OoT, so that sounds cool, cause we all know the falcon isn't getting a new moveset, Thanks to the FALCOWNE--PAWCH

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Or what about they go with this:

 

[LaniusShrike]

I don't really advocate for Demise being put in, but if I felt like it was really an excuse to give a slot to a reworked Ganondorf, I'd be pretty happy with his inclusion.

 

[Deleted member]

Exactly, Ganondorf is likely to still be a Semi Clone in sab4.

Now, I wouldn't go to that assumption just yet.
There still is the factor that Black Shadow was a popular request in Japan after Sakurai "finalized" the roster, and is still a popular request.
With that in mind, it is plausible to believe that B. Shadow can get in Smash 4 and inherit Ganondorf's cloned moveset (which is actually what Japan wants to happen) while Ganondorf gets a new set of moves.
This kills multiple birds with one stone:
-A 2nd F-Zero character finally gets added.
-Black Shadow, a popular character in Japan, gets in.
-Ganondorf gets a new moveset that doesn't clone Captain Falcon.
-Ganondorf mains are not alienated, as they can switch over to Black Shadow instead.

If this does end up happening, I would hope Ganondorf would at least keep Flame Choke. It suits him a lot more than it does B. Shadow, and it opens up for B. Shadow to have a move inspired by the Boost Fire technique that Climax introduced. (Though more specifically based on his version of the technique (known as Black Fire) used in the anime)

 

[bobadz]

Now, I wouldn't go to that assumption just yet.
There still is the factor that Black Shadow was a popular request in Japan after Sakurai "finalized" the roster, and is still a popular request.
With that in mind, it is plausible to believe that B. Shadow can get in Smash 4 and inherit Ganondorf's cloned moveset (which is actually what Japan wants to happen) while Ganondorf gets a new set of moves.
This kills multiple birds with one stone:
-A 2nd F-Zero character finally gets added.
-Black Shadow, a popular character in Japan, gets in.
-Ganondorf gets a new moveset that doesn't clone Captain Falcon.
-Ganondorf mains are not alienated, as they can switch over to Black Shadow instead.

If this does end up happening, I would hope Ganondorf would at least keep Flame Choke. It suits him a lot more than it does B. Shadow, and it opens up for B. Shadow to have a move inspired by the Boost Fire technique that Climax introduced. (Though more specifically based on his version of the technique (known as Black Fire) used in the anime)

I want black shadow to take Ganondorf's moveset, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Well your not wrong about Black Shadow gettin those moves, but I see Samurai Goroh as a much more possible add for the F-Zero franchise there!

 

[Deleted member]

I would agree, if Black Shadow was not among the more popular Smash candidates for the new game.
If Goroh does end up in, that's fine by me, I'm ok with both. Though between the two, I see B. Shadow more likely.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

I always though Goroh was the most populare of the two, but honestly I like them both.. But let's not get too oftopic on Ganondorf with this

 

[Deleted member]

I always though Goroh was the most populare of the two, but honestly I like them both.. But let's not get too oftopic on Ganondorf with this

Well, outside Japan, they are roughly the same, but are relatively low compared to many other characters.
Within Japan, Black Shadow is one of the top characters in requests while Goroh is about the same as he is outside Japan.

Now, for Ganondorf discussion, I'm just confused on how he's going to appear. Will he stay in TP style? Will he revert back to Melee/Spaceworld Demo style or the actual OoT style due to Ocarina of Time 3D? Will he be WW style due to Wind Waker HD? Will he be given an original design based off of Demise? Or none of the above and just a Smash original design in general?
It's one of those things that is perplexing.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

I liked Melee Appearence better then Brawl to be honest

 

[Fastblade5035]

I liked Melee Appearence better then Brawl to be honest

Opposite for me

 

[LaniusShrike]

Wouldn't mind an FZero character taking Gdorf's current moveset. Especially if you could unlock a Gdorf alt costume for it, ha. I kind of think alternate costumes solve a lot of problems regarding "character slots".

I like his Brawl MODEL a lot, but his Melee animation is just so much better. When he runs in Brawl he looks like an octogenarian out for a jog.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, he was deliberately made to feel like a "middle aged man".
Probably has to do with his more elderly design compared to Melee's.
(Giving the Old Manondorf costume a whole new meaning )

 

[LaniusShrike]

I feel like "Ancient Power" shouldn't translate to "Old Man". I mean, like, obviously. Sigh.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You know what, I just replayed the boss fight of Wind Waker, and noticed how adapt Ganondorf there is in fist to fist fighting. He isn't even affraid of that Master Sword, he just knocks Link out like nothing. So even though he uses the Wind Waker design for Smash, I think they could still make him a fist fighter and make it believable. He even kicks during the fight even when using the twin blades. I'm betting on more unique B moves, but he'll still be a fist fighter, and a (more) Luigified C.Falcon clone in his normal attacks. But am hoping he'll at least use one of those katanas he had in Wind Waker.

Cause these things are just awesome. Even though he might use only one.

 

[FalKoopa]

Giving him one katana won't work out well, I think. That would work better for Goroh and/or Takamaru imo.

Instead, giving him Demise's sword (as suggested by Golden) or the Sword of the Sages would be better.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ganondorf wielding Demise's sword? No. And the Sword of the Sages = worst sword ever on Ganondorf.

I want Toon Ganondorf, and the fitting sword. And wielding just one of them would be good enough. Maybe have one special or some Smash attacks involving both blades, but I'd like a style mixed with swords, magic and raw physical strenght.

 

[FalKoopa]

If you're going for Toon Ganon, then giving him both swords would be best, imho.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Thing is, I want a staple moveset for Ganondorf. Not one that has to be changed accordingly to his next apperance for the next Smash. And seeing as it's unlikely Ganondorf will ever use twinblades again, I'd opt for him just using one. So his next Smash appearance wouldn't need much changes.

 

[LaniusShrike]

What's wrong with the Sword of Sages? There's nothing cooler than taking a weapon used to execute you and wielding it against your enemies. I like the design too... do you just feel like it's too pretty for Ganondorf to use? I definitely agree that Ganondorf using Demise's sword makes almost no sense. Sure, he's his spiritual successor, but he has yet to wield it.

The Execution Blade. Would've been cooler if it was an axe.

Sorry for the double post... But I think I'm coming down on the side of single sword, simply because I would love to see all of the similar Zelda villains as alternate costumes and Sword+Magic hasn't really been explored yet, even if single sword's being done to death. I just came across Zant's Twilight Blade. Awesome, makes me want to see Zant as an alt-costume as well.

 

[Deleted member]

If Adult Link (OoT) using a Boomerang and Zelda using Link's spells is acceptable, then there should be no issue with Ganondorf using Demise's sword.
Besides, you can't say this is not badass :

With the swords from Wind Waker, it's either both or none. Having only one is lame beyond belief.

 

[FlareHabanero]

You know, it's kind of ironic how people complain about too many swords but are all up for giving Ganondorf a sword.

Just saiyen.